What are your thoughts on a promotion / relegation system in the a-league.

For example now that the apl is up and running

A-league
Apl - conferences

In 5-10 years time

A-league 12-14 teams
A-2 league 8-12 teams
Apl conferences

Okay now I have an idea how the a-league can keep big cities in the top two tiers.
For example if say a Sydney team finishes bottom of a-2 they can only be replaced by the winner of that conference.
That will keep the same number or evenly distributed teams throughout the top two tiers. What are your thoughts ?

Also I'd like to ask a mod if they could make this a dedicated promotion thread. So all topics are easily accessible in the one place. Not on different posts ? Also to add a poll if possible

No. Will kill off any team that gets relegated, have promotion of the best APL team when they show they can be viable in the A-League but don't undo all the good work with relegation

sounds pretty good to me. im intrigued at the strategy and direction the FFA will take on promotion and relegation, it wont be easy.

the bottom placed team should play over 2 legs, if an A2 team can win over 2 matches then the A league team deserves to be relegated.

It won't e easy, but if we can keep the same number of teams per state in the top two tiers which can only e replaced by a team from the canferance if the drop out of A-2

Also other rewarding measures the FFA can look at is if a team is averaging high crowds and a sound buisness model in a apl conference they can be promoted on merit in place of a team on the verge of bankruptcy/low crowds. Not mattering which conference they are from. And also a review every 5-10 years on the distribution of teams per sate in the top two tiers.

Whole reason pro/rel is happening is to meet AFC criteria.

A-1 - a-2 is simple bottom placed plays off against winner of a-2
2nd last in a-1 plays off against the winner of 2ndvs3rd a-2 playoff

Bottom 2 of apl get relegated back to their conference and replaced by the winner of their respective conferences


Fairly simple.

Important thing is to keep it simple, none of this A team only gets relegated if there a X numbers teams in B conference subject to C division playoff nonsense. Teams who get relegated get relegated, and teams who get promoted are promoted, unless the promoted team doesn't mean A league requirements, then the teams stay where they.

I agree but once relegated from a-2 you can only be replaced by a team from your conference. That way it stops both competitions becoming Sydney/Melbourne centric

Utterly ridiculous

Fuck the AFC and their corrupt shenanigans.

1 model does not fit all. We are not Europe and we never will be.

Relegation is a sure way to destroy the league, it's commercialisation and it's fans.

Imagine the TV ratings if Sydney FC dropped out and got replaced by Green Fern Gully?

In the far far far far future maybe, any P/R would have to have a 2nd division where select teams are chosen or created like we have now, not using the state leagues, where the entire league is mostly from teams of 1 city. So basically a similar football pyramid to the US.

This is decades off though imo.

Edited by aussie4ever4: 14/2/2013 07:51:45 PM

Under the current outline, you'll only have a club go up every decade or so. Any new-dawn club going down except for maybe victory or WesternsSydney will die.

All sounds so good in theory but the reality is that this will not work, no matter how hard the AFC try and push their one size fits all mentality.

Sometimes I think the AFC want to see us fail with their rules and demands.

Overall, a few questions:

- What happens if Perth Glory or Adelaide United for instance get relegated and a major market is left vacant. What effect would this have on the value of a TV deal? Loss of representation in a market?
- If a team is relegated back to the relevant NPL comp, and the team that goes up is from another state, how would the new team fit back into the structure? Wouldn't that leave uneven amount of teams? Conversely, a team is promoted, the same issue would occur.
- How will a team go from a comp that will be largely amateur to an optimistic semi-pro to a tier 1 comp without incurring massive costs? Sponsorships, stadium deals and other important financial implications would make this quite hard. The risk of a yo-yo comp, with teams coming and going as quickly as they came would be high also.
- What would be the loss of value for licences? Given the FFA will be trying to sell the WSW soon, this might not be a good thing to add this level of risk for potential investors.

Overall, it just doesn't make much sense, with lots of issues that could potentially damage the game more than benefit it.

Honestly think it can work, but not in the immediate future. Club overheads need to be reduced and the restrictions on the leagues have to be uniform- which is one of the biggest problems. How do you take a team with a player point cap into a league with a dollars salary cap within a specified range? How do you insert a dollars salary cap team into a points capped NPL league when they have developed none of their players from youth?

I think, if they do implement it, it will be a few seasons of straight promotion (increasing league numbers) before relegation is implemented, with the expectation that the less financially backed "second string clubs" will likely fall in the bottom end and one take the spoon (meaning the current existing franchises don't get relegated)

Over time, there will be specialist "second string" clubs that go from consistently avoiding the drop to legitimately challenging the other teams for mid-table and up positions and an existing franchise may end up relegated. The hope being that by this time the sport is entrenched enough in the masses that the second division becomes more appealing to support (than not at all) and dedicated fans will stick around to try and get their club back up to the top flight (of course, cost of running in the NPL would be significantly cheaper too)

Long story short- I'm optimistic it can happen but need further parity on infrastructure. Enforce youth academies from kids up for all HAL teams, adjust the salary cap to include parity to the points system, start with promotion then work on relegation. NPL needs to be strong and appealing.

No it wont if the team is good enough to get back in they are if not then they should not be in the a-league

I actually quite like that.
It'll still leave the FFA with almost all the control, which will appeal to them.
They handpick the teams in A2-League, and over the years you'll expect alot of exchange between that and the A-League. But if there's a limit of 1 melb and one Sydney side in the A2. That ensures no more than 3 sides from those cities in the top division.
Relegation from the A2 would be subject to so many checks of the promoted APL side, that I doubt it would happen very often at all.

As you said, relegated A2 side can only be replaced by a team from the corresponding state (or APL branch). Obv would include financial testing and a playoff.
Interesting that the only current state league clubs capable of passing these tests (you'd assume) would come from melb or Sydney. Maybe Brisbane? So if you were a top vic or nsw state league aide, you'd be relying on your corresponding city's A2 side to finish last place - below sides from t'ville Canberra, Hobart, etc. You'd imagine that'd be rare, and when it happened, deserved relegation.

Here's an idea that they will probably adopt... the Champions License - P&R confined to a one license, if you go up you only go up for a season 1shot1opportunity

This so much.

this.

Actually the source of the principle of promotion and relegation is FIFA's prime document, its Statutes. The AFC is simply reflecting the requirements of FIFA.



http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/generic/01/66/54/21/fifastatutes2012e.pdf

In my view we have a long time to sort out the relegation side of the issue. We need another 6 clubs to demonstrate, through the NPL system, their ability to operate successfully at A-League level and find the funds to include them before we even consider relegation.

People are forgetting that I included only teams being relegated from the a-2 have to be replaced by a team
From their conference. So in fact. No big team would ever fall to the Npl due to the high possibility of the apl clubs not being fit enough to make the top two leagues. Get me ?

Say for example Sydney FC get relegated from a-1 to a-2 and are replaced by brisbane city for instance. If Sydney FC can't beat the majority of a-2 teams why should they be playing in our premier division? And if they manage to come last in a-2 I highly doubt a Sydney apl conference side would beat Sydney over two legs and if they do, they wouldn't fit the a2 criteria for a good 5-20 years.

It won't work. No other country in the world has 5 major billion dollar sports battling each other in fairly small, confined cities. Our population is probably over serviced already in the sports department.

no relegation, only promotion until we get to 16 clubs with strict guidelines on which clubs are allowed to be promoted

I don't even think promotion for the APL will work. If Brisbane Roar representing a whole city can only attract 15k fans, how is a suburban team going to compete. New teams have to represent a whole city and different from APL Eg Canberra, Hobart. APL is purely a breeding ground for HAL teams to pick at

Edited by Roar #1: 14/2/2013 08:52:15 PM

FIFA has issued Club Licensing Regulations that require an open appealable process and the issues allowed to be considered are specified in it. The AFC adopted it and require all member associations to implement it or an approved equivalent by 2013. I'm not sure what controls you are alluding to but they may not be permitted to be considered.

For now, no. It would fail miserably.
We need to focus on building the league until we get to the stage where we can have at least a 14 (ideally 16) club comp which is financially stable, as well as an FFA cup competition.

Edit: promotion/relegation could be initially installed in the NPL. Might have a better prospect of working here in Australia when there isn't as much at stake financially..the clubs could develop junior sides also in order to gain a foothold for sustainability.

This would add intrigue to promotion/relegation matches, whereby clubs that get promoted from a 3rd tier into the NPL are virtually playing off for spots in the FFA cup. The A-League teams get a bye for the first round and come in afterwards.

Edited by JayEss: 14/2/2013 09:24:36 PM

I am of the opinion that while Australia may be able to create a league system in which promotion and relegation happens, it is far less preferable to a large professional league without promotion/relegation.

I believe that this country could support a 20 team fully professional A-League.

Unlike the NRL and AFL, there is no major imbalance in where the majority of the support for the code comes from. While Sydney and Melbourne have the potential to support more teams, this is mostly due to the population size rather than a huge inherent preference for the code unlike the NRL and AFL with it's Sydney and Melbourne centric biases respectively.

Relegation will kill the vast majority of existing A-League clubs.

Promotion will do little to improve the support of certain existing second tier clubs.

Certain circumstances and potential scenarios that could unfold with promotion and relegation could leave the A-League a laughing stock in Australian sport and if compounded over time, may result in major cities and states have no representation at all. It may also result in areas of zero worth to the A-League and the television rights having more representation that they should have, diluting the value of the league.

The money in Australian football is small, and spread very thinly. Creation of a second tier will spread that money even further with negligible gains. Second tier sport is inherently worthless in Australia. Sponsorships are tiny. Television coverage is pitiful.

Promotion/Relegation in my view appears to be an attempt to appease the AFC to gain another champions league slot. This goal while admirable is pointless. The AFC have shown on numerous occasions to be corrupt, negligent or simply working against our interest in favour of other interest. This season's champions league contains a club from West Asia playing in our East Asian group stage for no reason other than enabling the middle east oil rich clubs to keep their massively generous group stage allocations. Instead of Brisbane Roar having a group stage entry and Perth Glory fighting in a play-off vs Buriam, it was Brisbane Roar, they were knocked out, and we now have but one club in the Champions League this season.

Promotion and Relegation is a fevered dream for those wishing to emulate European football in a nation that is as far removed from the football 'religion' as a nation could be.

If this country did not have a AFL, a V8's, NRL & Cricket costing approximately half a billion dollars a year in TV rights away from the potential for the FFA, the A-League could potentially be a top 5 world-wide competition with a second tier of another 20 clubs.

But that is not the world we live in.

The country we live in cannot support a league with promotion and relegation. Not now. Not for a very very long time. If ever.

Why? Clubs need to be able to demonstrate they are sustainable to be included as well as winning the right to be promoted. The concept being implemented is intended to improve the level of competition at NPL level and to grow support. If a club presents with a sustainable business plan from a city with an existing club that is all that is required. I find the idea that a city with a couple of million people should only be expected long term to have one club is pretty defeatist. The idea that instead a city of 200k people should be preferred is to say the least surprising.