Jesus Fucking Christ.

The real scary thing is that that is exactly what a vast number of yanks think.

Yup, unfortunately the debate doesn't get past the 2nd where it should be aiming at looking at background checks and what not.

People can't get past the "they're restricting my freedom!" when it should be "they trying to make it harder for crazy people to have access to guns" which is the correct way of looking at it.

As a whole though, America as a society has some really really major issues that are so deep seeded I don't know how even restricting guns to a choke hold would ever change anything.

That and the fact that the NRA has some seriously major pulling power in America (like any lobby or big business/company when it comes to politics).

America is just a bit silly.

-PB

Lol'd when he tried to say England have mass murders all the time. I also like how he completely brushed over the interviewers points about Port Arthur and our response to it.

Guns = Safety? What a fucking nutjob.

I did have a good lol at "LOWER? ITS 35 TO 12,000!"

Unfortunately guns does equal safety in America because they are so widespread (millions upon millions of firearms) because they have been making and selling them for 150+ years with things like paperwork and because they're so widespread and easy to get into the hands of the criminal elements of society, you need to arm yourself accordingly.

Fight fire with fire etc.

EDIT: Without paperwork**

-PB

Edited by paulbagzFC: 28/8/2015 10:20:54 AM

There is a great book by Stephen Pinker called "The Better Angels of Our Nature" which documents the historical decline of violence (both in war and within societies) over time. I highly recommend it, a fascinating read.

He has an interesting theory as to the USA cultural affinity to guns, and their higher rates of murder (and violence generally) compared to other rich countries.

Essentially, the argument goes that the USA became a democracy before the population was pacified. Whereas in other comparable countries (mostly Europe), the population was generally de-armed, and the ruling power firmly monopolised the legitimate (ie legal) use of violence. Democracy only occurred after the population was de-armed, so there were no democratic arguments in terms of retaining guns.

Whereas in the US, the population was still highly armed, and the country retained a frontier and frontier wars, whilst the country was democratised (for white men at least). So you had this issue of the will of the people arguing against losing their guns, which in a democratic society means gun ownership is retained.

Also, the USA retained this "frontier" culture for much longer than any other rich country, and therefore inherited a much stronger culture of willingness to use violence (because on the frontier there was little legal recourse in disputes).

I am really doing the argument disservice by cherry picking the most relevant points, but it is an interesting argument.

US violence is decreasing, and at some point will "normalise" in line with the rest of the rich world.

Another interesting fact is that the NUMBER OF HOUSEHOLDS with guns is in an historical decline, whereas the NUMBER OF GUNS is increasing.

So less people have guns, but the ones that have them are increasing the number of guns they have.

I find that somewhat reassuring, but disturbing at the same time.

Edited by AzzaMarch: 28/8/2015 10:25:03 AM

I just don't get how you can have 12,000 people a year die from gun crime not to mention horrible mass murders like Columbine, Virginia Tech, Sandy Hook, Charlestown Church and still think the answer is anything but Gun Control.

Edited by scotty21: 28/8/2015 10:23:49 AM

Normally you wouldn't really have more than 5 guns (the principle of types), but it's easy to rack up lots just thanks to all the different calibres and what not.

-PB

Yep. I got an uncle who is a gun nut (he lives in texas) and he posts nra propaganda on his facebook page non stop. If some one trys to reason with him he just does what any hardcore republican does and thats insult them .

It took 1 world wide headline grabbing atrocity for us to act on gun control.

Now I am a bit to young to remember the reaction of the public here after Port Arthur but I would imagine that it would not be the same as if the same atrocity has occurred in the states.

And if a US president ever did act on gun control it could very well start a civil war

Well there was a stunned shock that rocked around oz. The fact howard took the gun lobby on and said enoughs enoughs shows guts. The problem is that the restrictions on licenced gun holders have become way to restrictive

This bloke is off his rocker. I cant believe it. I am speechless this is what people believe in. ..


You know what


Thank god for Australia. We truly are the lucky country.

Can remember my dad handing in a rifle when the gun buyback was on.

But yes I have a friend or two who are licenced gun owners and it is very restrictive.

Care to elaborate on these "way to (sic) restrictive" restrictions?

Or is this just another unsubstantiated, second-hand, anecdotal assertion.

Howard was wearing a bullet proof vest when he made that speech.

Balls of steel.

-PB

Restrictive isn't the correct word to use, an absolute fuck about is more correct.

The way the anti-gun crew in Australia paint things is like we're America or some shit.

-PB

I know you know. I'm interested in Mr Anecdotal's input.


As for the other thing one blokes "restrictive" is another blokes "sensible".

If any other western Country got a casualty list like that, then the issue would almost certainly become securitised by the government.

"The United States is, by a long shot, the global leader in mass shootings, claiming just 5 per cent of the global population but an outsized share – 31 per cent – of the world's mass shooters since 1966, a new study finds".

"A 2007 survey found 270 million firearms in American civilian households – an ownership rate of 88.8 firearms per 100 people. Yemen followed, with 54.8 firearms per 100 people".

http://www.theage.com.au/world/why-the-us-is-no-1-in-mass-shootings-study-20150827-gj9oi8.html

Maybe a mass shooting live on air will be the last straw.

Yemen; werd.

-PB

If Sandy Hook, with 20 six year olds getting slaughtered didn't do it, no chance this will.

Too much money involved, too many people wielding influence that have invested interests.

It's not about saving lives, its about saving stock prices.

-PB

This. About the only thing that will get conservatives to give up their guns is if owning one came with some sort of curse that made all their offspring homosexual.

This isnt entirely true.
Background checks are gaining momentum and there are quite a number of new laws on the table.
It may not be the change to the constitution you want but progress is happening. I expect Hillary to continue when she's elected.

So in the end we're all human mcnuggets are we?

Edited by condemned666: 28/8/2015 08:15:30 PM

Dont know if anybody has brought this up, but go on YouTube and watch Jon Oliver's 3 part series on Gun Control from wen he was back on John Stewart's show as a reporter.

Pollies in the US dgaf about the people, they spend most of their time in office trying to get re-elected. Its a joke.

I love America (traveled through a little bit) but their gun issues are a systematic problem and are becoming emotionally crippling for many Americans. Its unbelievable that they can still have the attitudes they have in the face of all the data showing gun control works and the pleas of the remainder of the rest of the world.

That Mass Shooting Map stuff is so depressing to look at as well.