Why January 26 is a hard day for our mob


Why January 26 is a hard day for our mob

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The invasion of Australia represents the start of much suffering for Indigenous people. We should find a day to celebrate that brings us together rather than tears us apart, writes Rodney Dillon.

Let me start by saying that all Indigenous people have badly suffered the consequences of colonisation, wherever they are in Australia.

That's why January 26 is a hard day for all of our mob.

Aboriginal people always feel sad on Australia Day - it marks the end of freedom for our people.

But colonisation hit Tasmanian Aboriginal people pretty hard.

Governor George Arthur declared war on Aboriginal people in the 1820s. A 'Black Line' was made, a human chain of soldiers, and marched across the land killing whoever they could.

They didn't get very many of us, because we're smarter than that.

Still, it shows the attitude they had towards our people. That they could shoot us whenever they liked and there were no consequences. That they could move people from our land and it's okay. That they could rape our women and steal our children. That they were in charge and that they knew what was best for Aboriginal people. People think that these attitudes have changed, but I wonder how much that's true.

Most people think there aren't any Aboriginal people in Tasmania left, or they think that those who are left aren't 'real' Aboriginal people.

They say that Trugainini was the last Aboriginal person in Tasmania. She was born on Bruny Island. They locked her up for about 20 years. They were fascinated with her. After she died they took her remains to the Hobart Museum, and our people fought for many years to get her out of there and returned to country to rest where she belonged.

She wasn't the last Aboriginal in Tasmania. Being Aboriginal is more than the colour of your skin. My family - from my parents to my great grandparents to my great great grandparents - have had our identity questioned our whole lives. We're only Aboriginal when it suits them.

There was a long period in our lives that our Aboriginal culture was denied and then ignored. But finally, in the last 10 years, the Tasmanian Government has started to be proud of, and celebrate, our culture. We still have a long way to go. We need to make our heritage laws stronger so that it's harder for people to destroy our culture. But it's a start.

The colonisers didn't declare war in other parts of Australia, but it was war. We were invaded. Indigenous people suffered, and keep suffering, the same things all over Australia. These times have been hard on our people.

Survival for us is about taking steps to address the consequences of invasion that we still face today. We've got health issues, scars from not healing, substance abuse, too many of our people are in prison, too many of our kids are in care, and not enough of our kids are getting educated. Governments are still trying to close communities and move people off their land.

Invasion was the start of these problems. There will be lifetimes, even generations, that will keep feeling the long-term effects of these things.

These issues are the by-product of what Australia Day represents.

We can't celebrate on that day because even now, more than 200 years later, the lessons haven't been learned and the same mistakes are still being repeated.

nt to see our culture celebrated at the beginning of sporting games. When our players like Adam Goodes are getting booed for doing an Aboriginal dance, it shows that our country is not in good order. Why do people see us expressing our culture as a threat, rather than an invitation?

I want to see a day when we have a Minister for Indigenous Affairs who is Indigenous.

I want to see us come together as one country - not two separate countries with separate issues. Our problems are Australian problems, not Aboriginal ones, and we all need to work together.

I want us all to be able to talk about invasion, rather than settlement, and get to the truth of our history, and for this to be taught in schools and universities across Australia.

So let's find a day to celebrate the Australia that we can be, that we should be. A day that brings us together and doesn't keep tearing us apart.

Rodney Dillon Is Amnesty International's Indigenous Campaigner, Chair of the National Reference Group for Repatriation of Australian Indigenous Remains, former Aboriginal and Torres Strait Island Commissioner for Tasmania, and long-time Indigenous rights activist. He is also a proud Palawa man.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-26/dillon-why-january-26-is-a-hard-day-for-our-mob/7112794

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OH FFS Adam Goodes was get booed because he is a cunt on the opposing side not for doing an Aboriginal dance
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Fair article. We should move the day from the 26th to be more sensitive to indigenous people. The minister for aboriginal affairs should most definitely be aboriginal. It's pathetic that it is not.

I disagree on the Adam Goodes front. While a lot of it surely must have been racism, he was booed initially not for being aboriginal. I think he'd have been booed by the Carlton fans if he ran at them and did any sort of action. No one booed Jetta for his war dance.

Invasion is a divisive word. No progress will be made when we're considered imperialists or invaders. We cannot continue to be called invaders if we want to get anywhere with the indigenous people. Furthermore, it seems to be a growing trend for people to write articles making white Australians feel ashamed of celebrating. I resent that sentiment. We were born 200 years after colonisation. Why should we be punished for the sins of those long dead?
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This yeas seems to have really amped up the amount of articles like this, at least this one is balanced.

-PB

https://i.imgur.com/batge7K.jpg

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i respect indigenous culture and deplore the wrongs commited on them....i just get the feeling that the only way they feel they will get closure is if the government gave back every piece of land to them and everyone who is not aboriginal jump on a ship and go back to their ethnic origin country.
i cant see what other solution they deem viable because every that has been done to fix things from saying sorry to giving them handouts hasnt seem to have worked

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 09:33:05 AM
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SocaWho wrote:
i respect indigenous culture and deplore the wrongs commited on them....i just get the feeling that the only way they feel they will get closure is if the government gave back every piece of land to them and everyone who is not aboriginal jump on a ship and go back to their ethnic origin country.


Which Aboriginal leaders have ever called for that to happen?
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JP wrote:
SocaWho wrote:
i respect indigenous culture and deplore the wrongs commited on them....i just get the feeling that the only way they feel they will get closure is if the government gave back every piece of land to them and everyone who is not aboriginal jump on a ship and go back to their ethnic origin country.


Which Aboriginal leaders have ever called for that to happen?

I think he is confusing the african ameircan feelings of getting 40 acres and a mule
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MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:
JP wrote:
SocaWho wrote:
i respect indigenous culture and deplore the wrongs commited on them....i just get the feeling that the only way they feel they will get closure is if the government gave back every piece of land to them and everyone who is not aboriginal jump on a ship and go back to their ethnic origin country.


Which Aboriginal leaders have ever called for that to happen?

I think he is confusing the african ameircan feelings of getting 40 acres and a mule

Look up Eddie Mabo...you obviously flunked Australian History
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JP wrote:
SocaWho wrote:
i respect indigenous culture and deplore the wrongs commited on them....i just get the feeling that the only way they feel they will get closure is if the government gave back every piece of land to them and everyone who is not aboriginal jump on a ship and go back to their ethnic origin country.


Which Aboriginal leaders have ever called for that to happen?

Its Mabo...its the constitution...its just the vibe:-"

and its conclusive...youre a flog

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 10:43:56 AM
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BETHFC wrote:
Fair article. We should move the day from the 26th to be more sensitive to indigenous people. The minister for aboriginal affairs should most definitely be aboriginal. It's pathetic that it is not.

I disagree on the Adam Goodes front. While a lot of it surely must have been racism, he was booed initially not for being aboriginal. I think he'd have been booed by the Carlton fans if he ran at them and did any sort of action. No one booed Jetta for his war dance.

Invasion is a divisive word. No progress will be made when we're considered imperialists or invaders. We cannot continue to be called invaders if we want to get anywhere with the indigenous people. Furthermore, it seems to be a growing trend for people to write articles making white Australians feel ashamed of celebrating. I resent that sentiment. We were born 200 years after colonisation. Why should we be punished for the sins of those long dead?

You're rubbing their noses in it - change the date and name. Why not have it a day, by name and approximation of time if possible, that Aboriginal lore suggests people settled Australia.
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SocaWho wrote:
JP wrote:
SocaWho wrote:
i respect indigenous culture and deplore the wrongs commited on them....i just get the feeling that the only way they feel they will get closure is if the government gave back every piece of land to them and everyone who is not aboriginal jump on a ship and go back to their ethnic origin country.


Which Aboriginal leaders have ever called for that to happen?

Its Mabo...its the constitution...its just the vibe:-"

and its conclusive...youre a flog

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 10:43:56 AM

Constitution? We are not america you imbecile
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SocaWho wrote:
MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:
JP wrote:
SocaWho wrote:
i respect indigenous culture and deplore the wrongs commited on them....i just get the feeling that the only way they feel they will get closure is if the government gave back every piece of land to them and everyone who is not aboriginal jump on a ship and go back to their ethnic origin country.


Which Aboriginal leaders have ever called for that to happen?

I think he is confusing the african ameircan feelings of getting 40 acres and a mule

Look up Eddie Mabo...you obviously flunked Australian History


Again, you don't seem to know what you're talking about. Mabo never argued that non-Indigenous Australians should leave the country, and he certainly didn't want them to give back "every piece of land." He advocated for indigenous land rights and measured compensation for the dispossession. You're not just misunderstanding Mabo, you're missing the point entirely. A quick google search would tell you how wrong you are.

You're reverting to your usual MO for any discussion - rather than actually engaging with what someone's said you just repeat the same bullshit from the original post and tell them they're a flog.
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MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:
SocaWho wrote:
JP wrote:
SocaWho wrote:
i respect indigenous culture and deplore the wrongs commited on them....i just get the feeling that the only way they feel they will get closure is if the government gave back every piece of land to them and everyone who is not aboriginal jump on a ship and go back to their ethnic origin country.


Which Aboriginal leaders have ever called for that to happen?

Its Mabo...its the constitution...its just the vibe:-"

and its conclusive...youre a flog

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 10:43:56 AM

Constitution? We are not america you imbecile

youre an even bigger flog for not understanding what i meant

fuck off back to your bunghole you rookie

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 10:59:45 AM
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JP wrote:
SocaWho wrote:
MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:
JP wrote:
SocaWho wrote:
i respect indigenous culture and deplore the wrongs commited on them....i just get the feeling that the only way they feel they will get closure is if the government gave back every piece of land to them and everyone who is not aboriginal jump on a ship and go back to their ethnic origin country.


Which Aboriginal leaders have ever called for that to happen?

I think he is confusing the african ameircan feelings of getting 40 acres and a mule

Look up Eddie Mabo...you obviously flunked Australian History


Again, you don't seem to know what you're talking about. Mabo never argued that non-Indigenous Australians should leave the country, and he certainly didn't want them to give back "every piece of land." He advocated for indigenous land rights and measured compensation for the dispossession. You're not just misunderstanding Mabo, you're missing the point entirely. A quick google search would tell you how wrong you are.

You're reverting to your usual MO for any discussion - rather than actually engaging with what someone's said you just repeat the same bullshit from the original post and tell them they're a flog.

just stating facts...youre a flog.
youre a shit troller too.

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 10:58:18 AM
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SocaWho wrote:
MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:
SocaWho wrote:
JP wrote:
SocaWho wrote:
i respect indigenous culture and deplore the wrongs commited on them....i just get the feeling that the only way they feel they will get closure is if the government gave back every piece of land to them and everyone who is not aboriginal jump on a ship and go back to their ethnic origin country.


Which Aboriginal leaders have ever called for that to happen?

Its Mabo...its the constitution...its just the vibe:-"

and its conclusive...youre a flog

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 10:43:56 AM

Constitution? We are not america you imbecile

youre an even bigger flog for not understanding what i meant

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 10:56:29 AM


So MVFCArsenal is a flog because he didn't understand a reference to an Australian movie, but you're fine - even though you completely failed to understand what Eddie Mabo was fighting for (probably a bit more significant than 'Castle' references, I reckon).
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SocaWho wrote:
MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:
SocaWho wrote:
JP wrote:
SocaWho wrote:
i respect indigenous culture and deplore the wrongs commited on them....i just get the feeling that the only way they feel they will get closure is if the government gave back every piece of land to them and everyone who is not aboriginal jump on a ship and go back to their ethnic origin country.


Which Aboriginal leaders have ever called for that to happen?

Its Mabo...its the constitution...its just the vibe:-"

and its conclusive...youre a flog

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 10:43:56 AM

Constitution? We are not america you imbecile

youre an even bigger flog for not understanding what i meant

fuck off back to your bunghole you rookie

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 10:59:45 AM

Im flog yay good news peopl i got put in my place by Socawho
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SocaWho wrote:
JP wrote:
SocaWho wrote:
MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:
JP wrote:
SocaWho wrote:
i respect indigenous culture and deplore the wrongs commited on them....i just get the feeling that the only way they feel they will get closure is if the government gave back every piece of land to them and everyone who is not aboriginal jump on a ship and go back to their ethnic origin country.


Which Aboriginal leaders have ever called for that to happen?

I think he is confusing the african ameircan feelings of getting 40 acres and a mule

Look up Eddie Mabo...you obviously flunked Australian History


Again, you don't seem to know what you're talking about. Mabo never argued that non-Indigenous Australians should leave the country, and he certainly didn't want them to give back "every piece of land." He advocated for indigenous land rights and measured compensation for the dispossession. You're not just misunderstanding Mabo, you're missing the point entirely. A quick google search would tell you how wrong you are.

You're reverting to your usual MO for any discussion - rather than actually engaging with what someone's said you just repeat the same bullshit from the original post and tell them they're a flog.

just stating facts...youre a flog.
youre a shit troller too.

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 10:58:18 AM


You keep proving my point. All you have is personal insults.

Nothing that you posted is a "fact," it's just bullshit. At no point did Eddie Mabo ever argue that non-Indigenous Australians should pack up and leave, nor did he ever argue that all land should be returned to the traditional owners. Those are the facts, and you should read up on them before you decided to have such a strongly-held opinion on them.
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11.mvfc.11 wrote:
MvFCArsenal16.8 wrote:
SocaWho wrote:
JP wrote:
SocaWho wrote:
i respect indigenous culture and deplore the wrongs commited on them....i just get the feeling that the only way they feel they will get closure is if the government gave back every piece of land to them and everyone who is not aboriginal jump on a ship and go back to their ethnic origin country.


Which Aboriginal leaders have ever called for that to happen?

Its Mabo...its the constitution...its just the vibe:-"

and its conclusive...youre a flog

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 10:43:56 AM

Constitution? We are not america you imbecile
Every country I believe has a constitution.

The guilting of white people is not limited to Australia. I will put it forward that those aboriginals alive today move forward with their lives. They have their apology from the government, they have many welfare and social benefits to sustain and develop themselves.

No one gets anything out of being hung up on the actions of our founding fathers. Yes, it was a bit shitty, but in comparison to other settlers, quite tame. The fact we have Aboriginals left is cause for celebration enough.

We, Australia, were settled on this day and no amount of white guilt is going to change that. If Aboriginals don't feel Australian, they can have their own day. In the meantime, we will keep celebrating.

Nothing wrong with celebrating oz day but those who whinge about the aboringals whinging annoy me. Let them have their say. To them it is hurtful and who are we to say other wise. Live and let live
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Bullion wrote:
BETHFC wrote:
Fair article. We should move the day from the 26th to be more sensitive to indigenous people. The minister for aboriginal affairs should most definitely be aboriginal. It's pathetic that it is not.

I disagree on the Adam Goodes front. While a lot of it surely must have been racism, he was booed initially not for being aboriginal. I think he'd have been booed by the Carlton fans if he ran at them and did any sort of action. No one booed Jetta for his war dance.

Invasion is a divisive word. No progress will be made when we're considered imperialists or invaders. We cannot continue to be called invaders if we want to get anywhere with the indigenous people. Furthermore, it seems to be a growing trend for people to write articles making white Australians feel ashamed of celebrating. I resent that sentiment. We were born 200 years after colonisation. Why should we be punished for the sins of those long dead?

You're rubbing their noses in it - change the date and name. Why not have it a day, by name and approximation of time if possible, that Aboriginal lore suggests people settled Australia.

I agree. I don't think I've ever heard such a date suggested so it may not exist (I'm aware calendars in a western sense were not a thing for aboriginals).

Personally I think we should just hurry up and become a republic and change our flag to something more inclusive. Then we can have the date that happens be our republic day. Another alternative is 3 March. The day the Australia act was enacted. It could be called "Australian independence day"

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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JP wrote:

He advocated for indigenous land rights and measured compensation for the dispossession. You're not just misunderstanding Mabo, you're missing the point entirely. A quick google search would tell you how wrong you are.
.


Terrible idea. The treaty of Waitangi has held NZ back for decades. This sort of argument would do the same thing to Australia.

Why should this generation suffer because of what previous ones did?
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BETHFC wrote:
JP wrote:

He advocated for indigenous land rights and measured compensation for the dispossession. You're not just misunderstanding Mabo, you're missing the point entirely. A quick google search would tell you how wrong you are.
.


Terrible idea. The treaty of Waitangi has held NZ back for decades. This sort of argument would do the same thing to Australia.

Why should this generation suffer because of what previous ones did?


To be clear I was just offering a cursive explanation of Mabo to SocaWho, since he doesn't seem to understand the issue.

And I think you're looking at things the wrong way. We shouldn't be arguing about whether this generation should suffer for the mistakes of its forefathers - instead we should be discussing how to compensate an obviously underprivileged group in our society for the past oppression that has left them so disadvantaged. Because the latter is what this is really about - today's Indigenous Australians are massively disadvantaged because of two centuries of oppression, and if we want to correct for that disadvantage, we need to right those mistakes as best we can.

We can't just 'wipe the slate clean' and forget past mistakes, because today's Indigenous Australians are still suffering from those mistakes.
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And hey, at least SocaWho's shut up. Perhaps he discovered the Wikipedia page on Mabo?
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JP wrote:
And hey, at least SocaWho's shut up. Perhaps he discovered the Wikipedia page on Mabo?

youre a flog.
mate all you do is follow my posts up with a retort for the sake of trollling me.
theres no point in having a solid convo with you...since all you do is try to get on my wrong side.
so run along and flog on

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 11:51:47 AM
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Vae Victus bitches
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SocaWho wrote:
JP wrote:
And hey, at least SocaWho's shut up. Perhaps he discovered the Wikipedia page on Mabo?

youre a flog.
mate all you do is follow my posts up with a retort for the sake of trollling me.
theres no point in having a solid convo with you...since all you do is try to get on my wrong side.
so run along and flog on

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 11:51:47 AM


You made an obviously uninformed post about Mabo, I corrected you on it, and then instead of admitting that you were wrong or trying to defend your view, you just resorted to calling me a flog - which is what you do when pretty much anyone disagrees with you.

Perhaps it should be obvious to me that you're not worth the time. The problem is that like lots of ignorant people, you're also entirely confident in the truth of the bullshit you spout. Whether you're discussing Sydney FC's need for a striker or Eddie Mabo, you state your opinion with absolute certainty, even when it's obvious to any neutral observer that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

So please do go ahead and explain why you're right about Mabo. If you have a genuine viewpoint I'd be very interested to hear it. But unfortunately, your response to this will probably involve personal attacks rather than substance.
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I think people need to be reminded that the prime minister of this country, elected by the people, apologised to the indigenous population for past injustices almost 8 years ago. Yep, its been almost 8 years.

There will never be a moment in our history that acknowledges wrongs of the past as strong as this one. The fact that this victim mentality and projection of white guilt is still perpetuated in this nation with even more fervour tells me that even if Australia day was changed, even if the Aboriginal flag was adopted as the national flag, even if Australia day was changed to invasion day and was made as a day of mourning for the nation, people will not be satisfied.

The aboriginal people will never be free, until successful aboriginal people like Stan Grant, remind his people that the reason he is where he is at the moment, is because he put his head down, worked hard, got an education and started at the bottom and didn't act like a victim.

The reality is that if you want to be successful in the western world, The Brookings institute showed that you have to do three things:

1) stay in school and get an education
2) don't have children before you get married. ie, don't become a single parent.
3) Get a job, any job and start at the bottom and work your way up.

There is a mentality out there that past injustices perpetuate current failure. They do not. This is a myth.

Let's look at some examples:

Jewish people have suffered an enormous level of persecution, resulting in almost their entire extermination as recently as just 70 years ago. This is a far greater injustice than the Aborigines suffered and it was more recent. Despite this, Jewish people are extremely successful. The assumption is that there is some zionist conspiracy. The reality is that CULTURALLY, jewish people teach their children as a bare minimum, that they must get an education. A good education. The stereotype is that you are not really Jewish until you get into law school or medicine. This is drummed into them by their families and culture from a young age. So in just a few years, Jewish people rose from people exterminated like vermin, to dominating the world. Mostly because the US is a meritocracy that rewards hard work and education.

Lets look at another example. 30 or 40 years ago, Asian and SE Asian populations came to Australia with virtually nothing, from poverty and persecution and suffered racism.

Despite this, you could argue that Asian people are perhaps the most successful demographic in Australia. They dominate the halls of academia. They dominate school test scores. Universities are overwhelmingly dominated by Asians. The reason is again CULTURAL. Asian families instill into their children that if they want to be successful they need to work hard, get a good education at a bare minimum and be disciplined. We all know the "tiger mum" stereotype and thats cos it works.

The reason why Aboriginal people do poorly is cultural. It is instilled into them by their families that they are entitled to things, that white people are out to get them and are responsible for their failure and that there is no point in trying. This is perpetuated by every man and his dog writing articles that constantly link past injustices to current failure instead of cultural problems. This victim mentality helps no-one.

No-one in human history has ever been successful without hard work, dedication and discipline. Even children born into extreme wealth, will eventually fail if a strong mentality is not forced into them from a young age. Privileged, spoilt children eventually fail.

I know people on here may have difficulty believing this but its true. Capitalism is colour blind. It cares only about the colour green. Make yourself valuable by getting an education and working hard. Instill into your children that no-one is going to help them unless they help themselves. Don't be a victim or you will fail spectacularly.

Obviously, children who grow up with parents who are useless drug addicts are not going to have this mentality drilled into them because their parents are hopeless, but rewarding this with a victim mentality solves no deep cultural problem, thats why successful Aboriginals in society need to be good role models by showing their people they became successful through hard work, and that it is possible for Aborigines, like it is for everyone, to be succesful if good values are drummed into them.
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Posts like this one ^ are why its still an issue.

I don't know what they do in school now but certainly we didn't do nearly enough Australian history. Way too much focus on European history.

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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I understand the sentiment from an aboriginals perspective from the things that happened back then are now morally wrong. However does anyone ever think that alot of the people who were sent here... didn't want to be here. They too were taken from their families as well. Again, that was something that in today is morally wrong, being sent thousands of kilometers away because you illegally tried to feed your childre/wife/self.
There's alot of bad shit under the bridge the vast majority are trying to bring this together but unless they are all doing it for the potential positives and not for the historical negatives... it won't work.
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SocaWho wrote:
JP wrote:
And hey, at least SocaWho's shut up. Perhaps he discovered the Wikipedia page on Mabo?

youre a flog.
mate all you do is follow my posts up with a retort for the sake of trollling me.
theres no point in having a solid convo with you...since all you do is try to get on my wrong side.
so run along and flog on

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 11:51:47 AM


I think this is the most unintentionally hilarious post in a very long time.
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u4486662 wrote:
The reality is that if you want to be successful in the western world, The Brookings institute showed that you have to do three things:
1) stay in school and get an education
2) don't have children before you get married. ie, don't become a single parent.
3) Get a job, any job and start at the bottom and work your way up.

Typical right wing mentality.
Firstly, define success in monetary & career terms
Secondly, demonise the disadvantaged, so as to sear one's conscience from having to vet the cornucopia of issues that leads to someone being disadvantaged - to the right winger 'apparent' complex problems have simple causes & hence simple solutions.
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mcjules wrote:
Posts like this one ^ are why its still an issue.

I don't know what they do in school now but certainly we didn't do nearly enough Australian history. Way too much focus on European history.

I know, what a ridiculous post. The state/federal policies resulting in the 'stolen generation' was still going on 25yrs after WW2.
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mcjules wrote:
Posts like this one ^ are why its still an issue.

I don't know what they do in school now but certainly we didn't do nearly enough Australian history. Way too much focus on European history.

Aboriginal people were massacred by white people in Australia's early history. FACT. Horrible injustices have been perpetuated upon Aboriginals in the past. FACT.

They were not allowed to vote until 1967. FACT.

But my post is still right.

The problems are cultural. Acknowledgement of past injustices is important, but crucially it does not change the culture, despite our best intentions.

By the way, I'm part Aboriginal. I have seen this mentality within my extended family.

Let me ask you this. Is Australia a more or less racist country than in the past? Of course it is less racist. There is less discrimination.

Then why do these problems still exist? In fact, they are arguably worse. Certainly not better.

Why?
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Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:
u4486662 wrote:
The reality is that if you want to be successful in the western world, The Brookings institute showed that you have to do three things:
1) stay in school and get an education
2) don't have children before you get married. ie, don't become a single parent.
3) Get a job, any job and start at the bottom and work your way up.

Typical right wing mentality.
Firstly, define success in monetary & career terms
Secondly, demonise the disadvantaged, so as to sear one's conscience from having to vet the cornucopia of issues that leads to someone being disadvantaged - to the right winger 'apparent' complex problems have simple causes & hence simple solutions.

Typical Left wing mentality...
hope to fuck you have a good government that is generous to give you enough money for you to live off centrelink for a fortnight.
build cycle paths thinking roads were made for cyclists in the first place



Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 02:01:41 PM

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 02:02:20 PM
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SocaWho wrote:
Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:
u4486662 wrote:
The reality is that if you want to be successful in the western world, The Brookings institute showed that you have to do three things:
1) stay in school and get an education
2) don't have children before you get married. ie, don't become a single parent.
3) Get a job, any job and start at the bottom and work your way up.

Typical right wing mentality.
Firstly, define success in monetary & career terms
Secondly, demonise the disadvantaged, so as to sear one's conscience from having to vet the cornucopia of issues that leads to someone being disadvantaged - to the right winger 'apparent' complex problems have simple causes & hence simple solutions.

Typical Left wing mentality...
hope to fuck you have a good government that is generous to give you enough money for you to live off centrelink for a fortnight.

And this one is knocked right out of the park...!
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everyone at each others throats is what Australia Day means to me :)
thats how we celebrate our diversity :)
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JP wrote:
BETHFC wrote:
JP wrote:

He advocated for indigenous land rights and measured compensation for the dispossession. You're not just misunderstanding Mabo, you're missing the point entirely. A quick google search would tell you how wrong you are.
.


Terrible idea. The treaty of Waitangi has held NZ back for decades. This sort of argument would do the same thing to Australia.

Why should this generation suffer because of what previous ones did?


To be clear I was just offering a cursive explanation of Mabo to SocaWho, since he doesn't seem to understand the issue.

And I think you're looking at things the wrong way. We shouldn't be arguing about whether this generation should suffer for the mistakes of its forefathers - instead we should be discussing how to compensate an obviously underprivileged group in our society for the past oppression that has left them so disadvantaged. Because the latter is what this is really about - today's Indigenous Australians are massively disadvantaged because of two centuries of oppression, and if we want to correct for that disadvantage, we need to right those mistakes as best we can.

We can't just 'wipe the slate clean' and forget past mistakes, because today's Indigenous Australians are still suffering from those mistakes.


Aboriginals need Moar money, They already get 30+ billion a year to spend on cheap housing and grog
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mcjules wrote:
Bullion wrote:
BETHFC wrote:
Fair article. We should move the day from the 26th to be more sensitive to indigenous people. The minister for aboriginal affairs should most definitely be aboriginal. It's pathetic that it is not.

I disagree on the Adam Goodes front. While a lot of it surely must have been racism, he was booed initially not for being aboriginal. I think he'd have been booed by the Carlton fans if he ran at them and did any sort of action. No one booed Jetta for his war dance.

Invasion is a divisive word. No progress will be made when we're considered imperialists or invaders. We cannot continue to be called invaders if we want to get anywhere with the indigenous people. Furthermore, it seems to be a growing trend for people to write articles making white Australians feel ashamed of celebrating. I resent that sentiment. We were born 200 years after colonisation. Why should we be punished for the sins of those long dead?

You're rubbing their noses in it - change the date and name. Why not have it a day, by name and approximation of time if possible, that Aboriginal lore suggests people settled Australia.

I agree. I don't think I've ever heard such a date suggested so it may not exist (I'm aware calendars in a western sense were not a thing for aboriginals).

Personally I think we should just hurry up and become a republic and change our flag to something more inclusive. Then we can have the date that happens be our republic day. Another alternative is 3 March. The day the Australia act was enacted. It could be called "Australian independence day"


I disagree.

We need to maintain Australia Day as the black armband activist day that it is as a constant reminder to those with ill gotten white privilege.

Its our day of mourning.
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11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Aboriginal life expectancy 1787: >30 years
Aboriginal life expectancy today: 70


daTs An oUtrage It Is
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u4486662 wrote:
mcjules wrote:
Posts like this one ^ are why its still an issue.

I don't know what they do in school now but certainly we didn't do nearly enough Australian history. Way too much focus on European history.

Aboriginal people were massacred by white people in Australia's early history. FACT. Horrible injustices have been perpetuated upon Aboriginals in the past. FACT.

They were not allowed to vote until 1967. FACT.

But my post is still right.

The problems are cultural. Acknowledgement of past injustices is important, but crucially it does not change the culture, despite our best intentions.

By the way, I'm part Aboriginal. I have seen this mentality within my extended family.

Let me ask you this. Is Australia a more or less racist country than in the past? Of course it is less racist. There is less discrimination.

Then why do these problems still exist? In fact, they are arguably worse. Certainly not better.

Why?

My main problem is that it's such a large and complex issue that has been essentially distilled down to "aboriginals have a lazy culture and don't work hard enough". Though he posted it in his usual condescending and "baiting" way, Murdoch rags is spot on.

The very successful Stan Grant seems to think racism is just as prevalent as ever in Australia...
[youtube]uEOssW1rw0I[/youtube]

On the original topic, even if Aboriginals were more "successful" by the standards you set out, would having Australia Day on the 26th January still be a good idea?

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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lukerobinho wrote:
11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Aboriginal life expectancy 1787: >30 years
Aboriginal life expectancy today: 70


daTs An oUtrage It Is

I don't understand what life expectancy has much to do with the issue. All Australians had low life expectancies, the ABS' earliest records of life expectancy has males at 47 between 1881-1890. You think that they wouldn't develop as they see fit in an increasingly global world?
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Obviously, as I expected, my post has created some consternation. So lets explore some more.

I'm sure people here would agree that Jewish people have suffered discrimination in just about every place they have lived for much of the last few thousand years.
They've been hated by the Christians, and are still hated by fundamentalists. Muslims detest Jews. There are 1.5 billion muslims and just 14 million Jews. They were nearly exterminated from the planet as recently as 70 years ago.

Ok, so we can all acknowledge, that like Aborigines, Jews have suffered extensive injustices and that those injustices have been fairly recent.

However, we can all agree, that Jews are tremendously successful. Why?

Is it because people have acknowledged injustices of the past, or is it because its built into their culture? You know plenty of people still hate jews.

What lessons can be learned about other discriminated but successful cultures like Jews and Asians who came to the western world that can be applied to the disadvantage faced by Aborigines?

One school of thought might be to say that to fix the problem we need to acknowledge injustices of the past and apologise for them. Provide a greater slice of welfare than what other people get. Give them free health care and free medications rather than just subsidised ones. All of these have great intentions. They are initiated by government and industry with the greatest of intentions to help people. But do they really help?

Or do we need to change the culture? How do we change the culture for the better? Is it going to change for the better by perpetuating a culture upon young Aboriginal people that they can't be successful because of injustices committed upon their relatives in the past? That the system is against them?

Or do we instill into them that they too can be successful if they stay in school and work hard. Rather than blaming society.

The reason why I'm saying this is that it is often Non-aboriginal people who perpetuate the idea that the system is against Aborigines or any marginalised group and I think this does more harm than good.

One of the ways this culture of failure can be broken, I believe, is for successful Aboriginal people to come out and say that they got to where they are by valuing education and hard work. I think they can be great role models in that regard.

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Quote:
Invasion Day rallies have been held across the nation to remember the First Fleet landing in Australia and the ensuing killings of Indigenous people.

For many Aboriginal people, Torres Strait Islanders and activists, there is little to celebrate on Australia Day, which is seen as the dispossession of Indigenous land and a day of mourning over the First Fleet's arrival at Port Jackson, Sydney, in 1788.

Thousands protested across the states and territories, with hundreds of people gathering at Parliament House in Melbourne to hear Aboriginal speakers talk about their ancestors and what Invasion Day meant for them.

They said there was still a long way to go until Indigenous Australians receive equal rights, and called for Australia Day to be moved to another day.

Many in the crowd held Aboriginal flags and signs calling for sovereignty.

"Always will be Aboriginal land," one protester said....
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-26/australia-day-invasion-day-protests-aboriginal-indigenous/7115086

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trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
Bullion wrote:
BETHFC wrote:
Fair article. We should move the day from the 26th to be more sensitive to indigenous people. The minister for aboriginal affairs should most definitely be aboriginal. It's pathetic that it is not.

I disagree on the Adam Goodes front. While a lot of it surely must have been racism, he was booed initially not for being aboriginal. I think he'd have been booed by the Carlton fans if he ran at them and did any sort of action. No one booed Jetta for his war dance.

Invasion is a divisive word. No progress will be made when we're considered imperialists or invaders. We cannot continue to be called invaders if we want to get anywhere with the indigenous people. Furthermore, it seems to be a growing trend for people to write articles making white Australians feel ashamed of celebrating. I resent that sentiment. We were born 200 years after colonisation. Why should we be punished for the sins of those long dead?

You're rubbing their noses in it - change the date and name. Why not have it a day, by name and approximation of time if possible, that Aboriginal lore suggests people settled Australia.

I agree. I don't think I've ever heard such a date suggested so it may not exist (I'm aware calendars in a western sense were not a thing for aboriginals).

Personally I think we should just hurry up and become a republic and change our flag to something more inclusive. Then we can have the date that happens be our republic day. Another alternative is 3 March. The day the Australia act was enacted. It could be called "Australian independence day"


I disagree.

We need to maintain Australia Day as the black armband activist day that it is as a constant reminder to those with ill gotten white privilege.

Its our day of mourning.
WHY DON'T YOU GO PAY 4 POUNDS TO SUCK OFF THE REMAINS FUCKED UP GOD KARL MARX
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GDeathe wrote:
trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
Bullion wrote:
BETHFC wrote:
Fair article. We should move the day from the 26th to be more sensitive to indigenous people. The minister for aboriginal affairs should most definitely be aboriginal. It's pathetic that it is not.

I disagree on the Adam Goodes front. While a lot of it surely must have been racism, he was booed initially not for being aboriginal. I think he'd have been booed by the Carlton fans if he ran at them and did any sort of action. No one booed Jetta for his war dance.

Invasion is a divisive word. No progress will be made when we're considered imperialists or invaders. We cannot continue to be called invaders if we want to get anywhere with the indigenous people. Furthermore, it seems to be a growing trend for people to write articles making white Australians feel ashamed of celebrating. I resent that sentiment. We were born 200 years after colonisation. Why should we be punished for the sins of those long dead?

You're rubbing their noses in it - change the date and name. Why not have it a day, by name and approximation of time if possible, that Aboriginal lore suggests people settled Australia.

I agree. I don't think I've ever heard such a date suggested so it may not exist (I'm aware calendars in a western sense were not a thing for aboriginals).

Personally I think we should just hurry up and become a republic and change our flag to something more inclusive. Then we can have the date that happens be our republic day. Another alternative is 3 March. The day the Australia act was enacted. It could be called "Australian independence day"


I disagree.

We need to maintain Australia Day as the black armband activist day that it is as a constant reminder to those with ill gotten white privilege.

Its our day of mourning.
WHY DON'T YOU GO PAY 4 POUNDS TO SUCK OFF THE REMAINS FUCKED UP GOD KARL MARX


Wow. This is the intolerant mindset we're dealing with here. ^

Edited by trident: 26/1/2016 04:43:30 PM
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trident wrote:
GDeathe wrote:
trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
Bullion wrote:
BETHFC wrote:
Fair article. We should move the day from the 26th to be more sensitive to indigenous people. The minister for aboriginal affairs should most definitely be aboriginal. It's pathetic that it is not.

I disagree on the Adam Goodes front. While a lot of it surely must have been racism, he was booed initially not for being aboriginal. I think he'd have been booed by the Carlton fans if he ran at them and did any sort of action. No one booed Jetta for his war dance.

Invasion is a divisive word. No progress will be made when we're considered imperialists or invaders. We cannot continue to be called invaders if we want to get anywhere with the indigenous people. Furthermore, it seems to be a growing trend for people to write articles making white Australians feel ashamed of celebrating. I resent that sentiment. We were born 200 years after colonisation. Why should we be punished for the sins of those long dead?

You're rubbing their noses in it - change the date and name. Why not have it a day, by name and approximation of time if possible, that Aboriginal lore suggests people settled Australia.

I agree. I don't think I've ever heard such a date suggested so it may not exist (I'm aware calendars in a western sense were not a thing for aboriginals).

Personally I think we should just hurry up and become a republic and change our flag to something more inclusive. Then we can have the date that happens be our republic day. Another alternative is 3 March. The day the Australia act was enacted. It could be called "Australian independence day"


I disagree.

We need to maintain Australia Day as the black armband activist day that it is as a constant reminder to those with ill gotten white privilege.

Its our day of mourning.
WHY DON'T YOU GO PAY 4 POUNDS TO SUCK OFF THE REMAINS FUCKED UP GOD KARL MARX


Wow. This is the intolerant mindset we're dealing with here. ^

Edited by trident: 26/1/2016 04:43:30 PM
The fact that some are too blinded by their "left/right" mentality to notice an obvious parody of a left leaning person is about the only thing I appreciate about this lame account of yours ricey.

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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Very good turn out at the march this year. Some heartbreaking stories.
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mcjules wrote:
u4486662 wrote:
mcjules wrote:
Posts like this one ^ are why its still an issue.

I don't know what they do in school now but certainly we didn't do nearly enough Australian history. Way too much focus on European history.

Aboriginal people were massacred by white people in Australia's early history. FACT. Horrible injustices have been perpetuated upon Aboriginals in the past. FACT.

They were not allowed to vote until 1967. FACT.

But my post is still right.

The problems are cultural. Acknowledgement of past injustices is important, but crucially it does not change the culture, despite our best intentions.

By the way, I'm part Aboriginal. I have seen this mentality within my extended family.

Let me ask you this. Is Australia a more or less racist country than in the past? Of course it is less racist. There is less discrimination.

Then why do these problems still exist? In fact, they are arguably worse. Certainly not better.

Why?

My main problem is that it's such a large and complex issue that has been essentially distilled down to "aboriginals have a lazy culture and don't work hard enough". Though he posted it in his usual condescending and "baiting" way, Murdoch rags is spot on.

The very successful Stan Grant seems to think racism is just as prevalent as ever in Australia...
[youtube]uEOssW1rw0I[/youtube]

On the original topic, even if Aboriginals were more "successful" by the standards you set out, would having Australia Day on the 26th January still be a good idea?

The stigma that indigenous people are lazy has got to stop...i agree it is embedded in the white mans thinking which does not help.
It seems there is no plausible solution until the domestic problems they have are fixed.

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On that note its nice to see the Australian of the Year also addressing the gender pay gap, domestic violence and the institutionalised culture that has unfairly empowered white anglo saxon men.
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JP wrote:
instead we should be discussing how to compensate an obviously underprivileged group in our society for the past oppression that has left them so disadvantaged. Because the latter is what this is really about - today's Indigenous Australians are massively disadvantaged because of two centuries of oppression, and if we want to correct for that disadvantage, we need to right those mistakes as best we can.


No i'm looking at it in a dollars and cents way. We already had an intervention that failed spectacularly.

I think it's unreasonable to expect our generation to pick up the bill for issues that started long before we were born.

Once you start talking compensation you never hear the end. Claims will come in for decades. We will spend billions and likely achieve nothing for average indigenous. It's a noble idea you have but an unreasonable one.

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BETHFC wrote:
JP wrote:
instead we should be discussing how to compensate an obviously underprivileged group in our society for the past oppression that has left them so disadvantaged. Because the latter is what this is really about - today's Indigenous Australians are massively disadvantaged because of two centuries of oppression, and if we want to correct for that disadvantage, we need to right those mistakes as best we can.


No i'm looking at it in a dollars and cents way. We already had an intervention that failed spectacularly.

I think it's unreasonable to expect our generation to pick up the bill for issues that started long before we were born.

Once you start talking compensation you never hear the end. Claims will come in for decades. We will spend billions and likely achieve nothing for average indigenous. It's a noble idea you have but an unreasonable one.

This. It was the English who did everything up until 1901.
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Probably should be the date we became a Federation, actually became a nation, but that's already a public holiday and we'd have smashed through our allocation of fireworks the night before.
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Make it Jan 27... does it change anything?
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macktheknife wrote:
Make it Jan 27... does it change anything?


It could be possible that NOT having it on the anniversary of the beginning of systematic genocide would do wonders for acceptance of the day within Australian Society.

Viennese Vuck

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BETHFC wrote:
I think it's unreasonable to expect our generation to pick up the bill for issues that started long before we were born.

I understand the sentiment but in reality life is like this. You can't take advantage of the benefits afforded to you by previous generations without taking on the bad things too.

If you're parents have a home loan and other debts (apart from HECS) when they pass away, that debt gets transferred to you. If the previous generation polluted the waterways meaning there is a shortage of potable water, you have to deal with it and find a solution.

The reality is it barely affects your day to day life and I struggle to understand why it's such an imposition to say "previous generations did horrible things to you and have put you in a shitty situation. We'll do our best to help you". Whether the way we're currently helping is the best way or not is another matter of course.

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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Do what mcjules said - change it to the date we become a Republic.
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Some people keep trying to make the point that "we can't be held responsible for what happened in the past". I don't know whether people understand that the effects of indigenous people being placed on reserves, the abduction of children as part of the Stolen Generation actions, etc have ongoing effects today.

The stolen generation policies only ceased in the 1970s, so its hardly in the past. Putting people on reserves has created the issues some have referred to as "indigenous cultural problems". The "welfare mentality" was created by the govts of the time, quite consciously and intended. Indigenous people were forced to live on reserves, prevented from getting education, and forced to either not work, or engage in only menial labour.

I don't think people understand that the stated clear purpose of govt policies up to the 1960s was actually to wipe indigenous Australians out as a race through "diluting" their race via interbreeding some, and isolating the rest to presumably 'die out'.

There is an infamous govt newsreel from the 1950s depicting this - they used a bathtub full of water, and an eyedropper with black ink, and dripped the black ink in to the bathtub water and showed it diluting.

So the devastation of indigenous communities didn't finish in the 1800s, it was right up until the 1970s by law. And in practice it continues even until today in many areas.

I don't know about other people, but I still hear appallingly racist things said about indigenous Australians by people who wouldn't regard themselves as racist, and who would not be openly racist against other ethnicities.

Racism against indigenous people is still widely accepted, and stereotypes and prejudices still rife. Pretending otherwise is just a joke.

They've got every right to be aggrieved by Jan 26. The problem is that we never had a war of independence like the USA, so we never had an overthrow of the colonial power. So we have to keep this mythology going that there were no frontier wars, that blacks somehow "get lots of free things from the govt" etc etc.

I mean we still have the union jack on our flag! We are still a colony in our mindset.
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lukerobinho wrote:
11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Aboriginal life expectancy 1787: >30 years
Aboriginal life expectancy today: 70


daTs An oUtrage It Is


Aboriginal life expectancy Males: 69.1
non-Aboriginal life expectancy Males: 79.7
Aboriginal life expectancy Females: 73.7
non-Aboriginal life expectancy Females: 83.1

That actually is an outrage.
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AzzaMarch wrote:
We are still a colony in our mindset.

Sad but true. I'm pleased that the republican movement is starting to get some traction again. Just need to convince the apathetic about it's importance. Hear too many times "we have other priorities", like we can walk and chew gum at the same time.

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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pv4 wrote:
Do what mcjules said - change it to the date we become a Republic.

The good thing about that idea is that we can rig the date so the holiday is at the best time to suit us :) I actually like an late jan/early feb holiday, just not on the 26th for the reasons mentioned many times on this thread!

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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i have mixed feelings about a republic...its good that it hopefully opens a new chapter for indignous recognition and turning over a new leaf...but bad from a law perspective. By that i mean every facet of law would be rejigged to affect day to day livng...i mean where do you stand as a citizen ? , what are your rights?
the cost to the taxpayer would be massive. ...the laws will be rejigged by people who have an agenda for themselves that might not benefit everyone and only their constiuents.
I mean i get sick of Ray Martin telling me whats good for me...and whats not.
Eventually Australia will be a republic no question...but it seems people like Ray Martin want to jump head first without a gradual transition...people like Ray Martin actually turn off people who are undecided

Edited by Socawho: 27/1/2016 12:03:20 PM
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SocaWho wrote:
i have mixed feelings about a republic...its good that it hopefully opens a new chapter for indignous recognition and turning over a new leaf...but bad from a law perspective. By that i mean every facet of law would be rejigged to affect day to day livng...i mean where do you stand as a citizen ? , what are your rights?
the cost to the taxpayer would be massive. ...the laws will be rejigged by people who have an agenda for themselves that might not benefit everyone and only their constiuents.
I mean i get sick of Ray Martin telling me whats good for me...and whats not.
Eventually Australia will be a republic no question...but it seems people like Ray Martin want to jump head first without a gradual transition...people like Ray Martin actually turn off people who are undecided

Probably one for the republic thread but most of the things you have concern for were solved in 1986 without any involvement from us.

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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SocaWho wrote:
i have mixed feelings about a republic...its good that it hopefully opens a new chapter for indignous recognition and turning over a new leaf...but bad from a law perspective. By that i mean every facet of law would be rejigged to affect day to day livng...i mean where do you stand as a citizen ? , what are your rights?
the cost to the taxpayer would be massive. ...the laws will be rejigged by people who have an agenda for themselves that might not benefit everyone and only their constiuents.
I mean i get sick of Ray Martin telling me whats good for me...and whats not.
Eventually Australia will be a republic no question...but it seems people like Ray Martin want to jump head first without a gradual transition...people like Ray Martin actually turn off people who are undecided

Edited by Socawho: 27/1/2016 12:03:20 PM


You worry too much about conspiracy theories. Ray Martin wont be president :)
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mcjules wrote:
BETHFC wrote:
I think it's unreasonable to expect our generation to pick up the bill for issues that started long before we were born.

I understand the sentiment but in reality life is like this. You can't take advantage of the benefits afforded to you by previous generations without taking on the bad things too.

If you're parents have a home loan and other debts (apart from HECS) when they pass away, that debt gets transferred to you. If the previous generation polluted the waterways meaning there is a shortage of potable water, you have to deal with it and find a solution.

The reality is it barely affects your day to day life and I struggle to understand why it's such an imposition to say "previous generations did horrible things to you and have put you in a shitty situation. We'll do our best to help you". Whether the way we're currently helping is the best way or not is another matter of course.


Yes, it seems BETHFC is having trouble coming to grips with his white anglo-saxon privilege

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mcjules wrote:
pv4 wrote:
Do what mcjules said - change it to the date we become a Republic.

The good thing about that idea is that we can rig the date so the holiday is at the best time to suit us :) I actually like an late jan/early feb holiday, just not on the 26th for the reasons mentioned many times on this thread!


Speaking solely from my (is shallow the right word?) shallow perspective on it all, my thinking is..
- Good to have it in the summer
- Should be during school holidays so doesn't disrupt school kids and people who have taken time off work already
- Shouldn't be a week either side of Jan 26

So I say we should have it on Jan 16th - that way next year we all get another long weekend! :lol:
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#firstworldwhiteprivilegeproblems
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trident wrote:
SocaWho wrote:
i have mixed feelings about a republic...its good that it hopefully opens a new chapter for indignous recognition and turning over a new leaf...but bad from a law perspective. By that i mean every facet of law would be rejigged to affect day to day livng...i mean where do you stand as a citizen ? , what are your rights?
the cost to the taxpayer would be massive. ...the laws will be rejigged by people who have an agenda for themselves that might not benefit everyone and only their constiuents.
I mean i get sick of Ray Martin telling me whats good for me...and whats not.
Eventually Australia will be a republic no question...but it seems people like Ray Martin want to jump head first without a gradual transition...people like Ray Martin actually turn off people who are undecided

Edited by Socawho: 27/1/2016 12:03:20 PM


You worry too much about conspiracy theories. Ray Martin wont be president :)

as you say comrade
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pv4 wrote:
mcjules wrote:
pv4 wrote:
Do what mcjules said - change it to the date we become a Republic.

The good thing about that idea is that we can rig the date so the holiday is at the best time to suit us :) I actually like an late jan/early feb holiday, just not on the 26th for the reasons mentioned many times on this thread!


Speaking solely from my (is shallow the right word?) shallow perspective on it all, my thinking is..
- Good to have it in the summer
- Should be during school holidays so doesn't disrupt school kids and people who have taken time off work already
- Shouldn't be a week either side of Jan 26

So I say we should have it on Jan 16th - that way next year we all get another long weekend! :lol:

Of course it's shallow but really the date could be any day of the year, may as well do it at a nice time of year so it's an easy day to hold celebrations. Would suck if it was July/August!

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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trident wrote:
#firstworldwhiteprivilegeproblems

you would have as us all live like North Koreans and Venezualans under Commie rule instead lol
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SocaWho wrote:
trident wrote:
#firstworldwhiteprivilegeproblems

you would have as us all live like North Koreans and Venezualans under Commie rule instead lol


I find the hypocritical conundrum interesting when the most important thing is the timing of when these white Australians can have another day off and at the same time make an issue about the original owners of this land being 'lazy'.
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trident wrote:
#firstworldwhiteprivilegeproblems


lol so lame.

-PB

https://i.imgur.com/batge7K.jpg

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Food for thought:

Some of those people who don't like indigenous "whingeing" about Jan 26 say that aborigines should "move on" from "what happened 50+ years ago".

Why can't we, as the rest of society, "move on" from celebrating our national day on Jan 26 to a day that is more inclusive?

50 years ago is a lot closer in time than almost 230 years ago? Why are we so attached to that date?
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AzzaMarch wrote:
Food for thought:

Some of those people who don't like indigenous "whingeing" about Jan 26 say that aborigines should "move on" from "what happened 50+ years ago".

Why can't we, as the rest of society, "move on" from celebrating our national day on Jan 26 to a day that is more inclusive?

50 years ago is a lot closer in time than almost 230 years ago? Why are we so attached to that date?


I think the date should be preserved for Invasion Day as its important we mark that time in our history as a time of reflection.

It is becoming more and more socially unacceptable to "celebrate" Australia Day and what we're seeing now among progressives and intellectual young people (who are the future of this country) is active participation in the day of mourning and the Invasion Day marches around the land.

This is a positive development. :)
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trident wrote:
SocaWho wrote:
trident wrote:
#firstworldwhiteprivilegeproblems

you would have as us all live like North Koreans and Venezualans under Commie rule instead lol


I find the hypocritical conundrum interesting when the most important thing is the timing of when these white Australians can have another day off and at the same time make an issue about the original owners of this land being 'lazy'.

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Shouldnt Australia day be when the nation was founded Anyway, not when the first fleet arrived.
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AzzaMarch wrote:
Food for thought:

Some of those people who don't like indigenous "whingeing" about Jan 26 say that aborigines should "move on" from "what happened 50+ years ago".

Why can't we, as the rest of society, "move on" from celebrating our national day on Jan 26 to a day that is more inclusive?

50 years ago is a lot closer in time than almost 230 years ago? Why are we so attached to that date?

It was only in 1935 that all states and territories started calling it "Australia Day" and apparently only in 1994 did it begin to be a public holiday for all.

Can easily be changed.

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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mcjules wrote:
AzzaMarch wrote:
Food for thought:

Some of those people who don't like indigenous "whingeing" about Jan 26 say that aborigines should "move on" from "what happened 50+ years ago".

Why can't we, as the rest of society, "move on" from celebrating our national day on Jan 26 to a day that is more inclusive?

50 years ago is a lot closer in time than almost 230 years ago? Why are we so attached to that date?

It was only in 1935 that all states and territories started calling it "Australia Day" and apparently only in 1994 did it begin to be a public holiday for all.

Can easily be changed.


John Howard's fault :)
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trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
AzzaMarch wrote:
Food for thought:

Some of those people who don't like indigenous "whingeing" about Jan 26 say that aborigines should "move on" from "what happened 50+ years ago".

Why can't we, as the rest of society, "move on" from celebrating our national day on Jan 26 to a day that is more inclusive?

50 years ago is a lot closer in time than almost 230 years ago? Why are we so attached to that date?

It was only in 1935 that all states and territories started calling it "Australia Day" and apparently only in 1994 did it begin to be a public holiday for all.

Can easily be changed.


John Howard's fault :)

I know it was before you were born so I'll excuse the fact that it's incorrect but no need to try so hard. First day of school a bit boring or you starting tomorrow?

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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mcjules wrote:
trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
AzzaMarch wrote:
Food for thought:

Some of those people who don't like indigenous "whingeing" about Jan 26 say that aborigines should "move on" from "what happened 50+ years ago".

Why can't we, as the rest of society, "move on" from celebrating our national day on Jan 26 to a day that is more inclusive?

50 years ago is a lot closer in time than almost 230 years ago? Why are we so attached to that date?

It was only in 1935 that all states and territories started calling it "Australia Day" [size=8]and apparently only in 1994 did it begin to be a public holiday for all.[/size]

Can easily be changed.


John Howard's fault :)

I know it was before you were born so I'll excuse the fact that it's incorrect but no need to try so hard. First day of school a bit boring or you starting tomorrow?


pure :)

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trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
AzzaMarch wrote:
Food for thought:

Some of those people who don't like indigenous "whingeing" about Jan 26 say that aborigines should "move on" from "what happened 50+ years ago".

Why can't we, as the rest of society, "move on" from celebrating our national day on Jan 26 to a day that is more inclusive?

50 years ago is a lot closer in time than almost 230 years ago? Why are we so attached to that date?

It was only in 1935 that all states and territories started calling it "Australia Day" [size=8]and apparently only in 1994 did it begin to be a public holiday for all.[/size]

Can easily be changed.


John Howard's fault :)

I know it was before you were born so I'll excuse the fact that it's incorrect but no need to try so hard. First day of school a bit boring or you starting tomorrow?


pure :)
Make sure you study hard, otherwise you won't be successful :lol:

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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mcjules wrote:
trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
AzzaMarch wrote:
Food for thought:

Some of those people who don't like indigenous "whingeing" about Jan 26 say that aborigines should "move on" from "what happened 50+ years ago".

Why can't we, as the rest of society, "move on" from celebrating our national day on Jan 26 to a day that is more inclusive?

50 years ago is a lot closer in time than almost 230 years ago? Why are we so attached to that date?

It was only in 1935 that all states and territories started calling it "Australia Day" [size=8]and apparently only in 1994 did it begin to be a public holiday for all.[/size]

Can easily be changed.


John Howard's fault :)

I know it was before you were born so I'll excuse the fact that it's incorrect but no need to try so hard. First day of school a bit boring or you starting tomorrow?


pure :)
Make sure you study hard, otherwise you won't be successful :lol:


Successful like cutting code all day like you? :)
Pizza under the door :)
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trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
AzzaMarch wrote:
Food for thought:

Some of those people who don't like indigenous "whingeing" about Jan 26 say that aborigines should "move on" from "what happened 50+ years ago".

Why can't we, as the rest of society, "move on" from celebrating our national day on Jan 26 to a day that is more inclusive?

50 years ago is a lot closer in time than almost 230 years ago? Why are we so attached to that date?

It was only in 1935 that all states and territories started calling it "Australia Day" [size=8]and apparently only in 1994 did it begin to be a public holiday for all.[/size]

Can easily be changed.


John Howard's fault :)

I know it was before you were born so I'll excuse the fact that it's incorrect but no need to try so hard. First day of school a bit boring or you starting tomorrow?


pure :)
Make sure you study hard, otherwise you won't be successful :lol:


Successful like cutting code all day like you? :)
Pizza under the door :)

If you're lucky ;)

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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mcjules wrote:
trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
AzzaMarch wrote:
Food for thought:

Some of those people who don't like indigenous "whingeing" about Jan 26 say that aborigines should "move on" from "what happened 50+ years ago".

Why can't we, as the rest of society, "move on" from celebrating our national day on Jan 26 to a day that is more inclusive?

50 years ago is a lot closer in time than almost 230 years ago? Why are we so attached to that date?

It was only in 1935 that all states and territories started calling it "Australia Day" [size=8]and apparently only in 1994 did it begin to be a public holiday for all.[/size]

Can easily be changed.


John Howard's fault :)

I know it was before you were born so I'll excuse the fact that it's incorrect but no need to try so hard. First day of school a bit boring or you starting tomorrow?


pure :)
Make sure you study hard, otherwise you won't be successful :lol:


Successful like cutting code all day like you? :)
Pizza under the door :)

If you're lucky ;)


It must pay well considering what I can get done by paying Indian folk on freelancer :)
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trident wrote:
It must pay well considering what I can get done by paying Indian folk on freelancer :)

Paying indians to get your school assignments done? You're going to go far in the Liberal party :lol:


Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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mcjules wrote:
trident wrote:
It must pay well considering what I can get done by paying Indian folk on freelancer :)

Paying indians to get your school assignments done? You're going to go far in the Liberal party :lol:


You must be a corporate high flyer considering you're still living in hicksville adelaide :)
A real success, cutting code and working on the help desk :)
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trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
trident wrote:
It must pay well considering what I can get done by paying Indian folk on freelancer :)

Paying indians to get your school assignments done? You're going to go far in the Liberal party :lol:


You must be a corporate high flyer considering you're still living in hicksville adelaide :)
A real success, cutting code and working on the help desk :)

Who said I was successful? And if I was, I certainly couldn't care enough to prove it to a high school kid on the internet :lol: Anyway if you want to "get out" of Adelaide yourself, my advice still applies.

Apologies to everyone else. Won't be derailing this thread any more :) :)

Edited by mcjules: 27/1/2016 04:17:06 PM

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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mcjules wrote:
trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
trident wrote:
It must pay well considering what I can get done by paying Indian folk on freelancer :)

Paying indians to get your school assignments done? You're going to go far in the Liberal party :lol:


You must be a corporate high flyer considering you're still living in hicksville adelaide :)
A real success, cutting code and working on the help desk :)

Who said I was successful? And if I was, I certainly couldn't care enough to prove it to a high school kid on the internet :lol: Anyway if you want to "get out" of Adelaide yourself, my advice still applies.

Apologies to everyone else. Won't be derailing this thread any more :) :)

Edited by mcjules: 27/1/2016 04:17:06 PM


What a meltdown from you.
Perhaps stick to what you know, ie answering phone calls and leave the history lessons to the experts.

Trying to claim Australia Day wasnt a public holiday until 1994, is one of the stupider posts I've read on this forum.
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trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
trident wrote:
It must pay well considering what I can get done by paying Indian folk on freelancer :)

Paying indians to get your school assignments done? You're going to go far in the Liberal party :lol:


You must be a corporate high flyer considering you're still living in hicksville adelaide :)
A real success, cutting code and working on the help desk :)

Who said I was successful? And if I was, I certainly couldn't care enough to prove it to a high school kid on the internet :lol: Anyway if you want to "get out" of Adelaide yourself, my advice still applies.

Apologies to everyone else. Won't be derailing this thread any more :) :)

Edited by mcjules: 27/1/2016 04:17:06 PM


What a meltdown from you.
Perhaps stick to what you know, ie answering phone calls and leave the history lessons to the experts.

Trying to claim Australia Day wasnt a public holiday until 1994, is one of the stupider posts I've read on this forum.

Answering phone calls is the new fish and chip shop (sorry PB) :lol:

There's no pride in schooling someone so young so no gloating. Maybe you can impress your teachers with this little tidbit.
Quote:
To summarise, New South Wales — Sydney especially — has long celebrated 26 January to mark the beginning of British occupation of Australia. Victoria and the other Australian states and territories, persuaded by the Australian Natives' Association, came to accept Australia Day by 1935, celebrating it together with a long weekend. Since 1979, federal government promotion of an Australia Day that was less British and more Australian gave the day a higher profile in the hope of unifying Australia's increasingly diverse population. The long weekend gave way to the day itself in 1994, and ten years later Canberra displaced Sydney as the day's focal point.

http://www.australiaday.org.au/australia-day/history/australia-day-26-january-a-day-for-all-australians/


Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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mcjules wrote:
trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
trident wrote:
It must pay well considering what I can get done by paying Indian folk on freelancer :)

Paying indians to get your school assignments done? You're going to go far in the Liberal party :lol:


You must be a corporate high flyer considering you're still living in hicksville adelaide :)
A real success, cutting code and working on the help desk :)

Who said I was successful? And if I was, I certainly couldn't care enough to prove it to a high school kid on the internet :lol: Anyway if you want to "get out" of Adelaide yourself, my advice still applies.

Apologies to everyone else. Won't be derailing this thread any more :) :)

Edited by mcjules: 27/1/2016 04:17:06 PM


What a meltdown from you.
Perhaps stick to what you know, ie answering phone calls and leave the history lessons to the experts.

Trying to claim Australia Day wasnt a public holiday until 1994, is one of the stupider posts I've read on this forum.

Answering phone calls is the new fish and chip shop (sorry PB) :lol:

There's no pride in schooling someone so young so no gloating. Maybe you can impress your teachers with this little tidbit.
Quote:
To summarise, New South Wales — Sydney especially — has long celebrated 26 January to mark the beginning of British occupation of Australia. Victoria and the other Australian states and territories, persuaded by the Australian Natives' Association, came to accept Australia Day by 1935, celebrating it together with a long weekend. Since 1979, federal government promotion of an Australia Day that was less British and more Australian gave the day a higher profile in the hope of unifying Australia's increasingly diverse population. The long weekend gave way to the day itself in 1994, and ten years later Canberra displaced Sydney as the day's focal point.

http://www.australiaday.org.au/australia-day/history/australia-day-26-january-a-day-for-all-australians/


You obviously werent even around in 1994 or if you were you were a child. Australia Day public holiday on January 26 has been around a century. Your google knowledge of history has you miscomprehending an article that has only stated the day was previously moved around the weekend for nothing more than convenience.

this is what you said
mcjules wrote:
AzzaMarch wrote:
Food for thought:

Some of those people who don't like indigenous "whingeing" about Jan 26 say that aborigines should "move on" from "what happened 50+ years ago".

Why can't we, as the rest of society, "move on" from celebrating our national day on Jan 26 to a day that is more inclusive?

50 years ago is a lot closer in time than almost 230 years ago? Why are we so attached to that date?

It was only in 1935 that all states and territories started calling it "Australia Day" [size=8]and apparently only in 1994 did it begin to be a public holiday for all.[/size]

Can easily be changed.


the 26th has always been the significant date and its been the public holiday whenever its fallen on a Friday or Monday

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Typical code cutter. Cant communicate nor comprehend the spoken language. :)

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meet somewhere down the middle, most people wouldn't care less what day you call "Australia day" they'll still celebrate it the same way regardless, the same token people shouldn't be made to feel guilty about celebrating it if it is the 26th of Jan
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I'm sorry you had to fall out of character ricey. Hope when you calm down you learn something.

I actually wasn't 100% correct. Technically in 1988 for the bicentenary, 26th Jan was a PH for everyone. 1994 was when it was "celebrated" universally.

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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Fish and chips are hard work m8.

-PB

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mcjules wrote:
I'm sorry you had to fall out of character ricey. Hope when you calm down you learn something.

I actually wasn't 100% correct. Technically in 1988 for the bicentenary, 26th Jan was a PH for everyone. 1994 was when it was "celebrated" universally.


You made a big mistake and now you're trying to regain ground by introducing more factoids you've googled?
Why would anyone be interested?

You'd be fascinated by how you're regarded in the 442 PM community (aka the Dark 442) :)
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McJules has Ricey absolutely rattled.

Not sure if Pm'ing yourself on different accounts counts as a 'community' though.
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mcjules wrote:
AzzaMarch wrote:
Food for thought:

Some of those people who don't like indigenous "whingeing" about Jan 26 say that aborigines should "move on" from "what happened 50+ years ago".

Why can't we, as the rest of society, "move on" from celebrating our national day on Jan 26 to a day that is more inclusive?

50 years ago is a lot closer in time than almost 230 years ago? Why are we so attached to that date?

It was only in 1935 that all states and territories started calling it "Australia Day" and apparently only in 1994 did it begin to be a public holiday for all.

Can easily be changed.


Interesting - thanks McJules. I had no idea that the public holiday nation-wide for all was so recent.
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Azza mate you had no idea because its completely false :)

mcjules wrote:

It was only in 1935 that all states and territories started calling it "Australia Day" [size=8]and apparently only in 1994 did it begin to be a public holiday for all.[/size]


he's trying to give trident a history lesson :) :) :)
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11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Ignoring the cultural differences that lead to lower life expectancy, physiologically the Indigenous Australian is, on average, weaker to the non-Indigenous Australian.


Ok, I'll bite.

1- the "cultural differences' you speak of are directly caused by the govt policies of putting indigenous people of reserves, not allowing them education etc etc.

2- "On average, weaker"?? What does that even mean? What evidence do you have for this? Ridiculous statement.
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trident wrote:
You'd be fascinated by how you're regarded in the 442 PM community (aka the Dark 442) :)

I think I overuse the emoticon but I did genuinely :lol: at this one. Like I give a shit :lol:

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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by the way a few examples prior to 1988...
http://www.calendar-australia.com/holidays/1983/
http://www.calendar-australia.com/holidays/1984/
http://www.calendar-australia.com/holidays/1987/

other random years the day off was moved to the friday or monday, but still celebrated on the 26th

that sinks your rewritten version of history
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mcjules madly trying to google his way out of the corner he's painted himself into :)
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No need to Google any more. I hope you source your assignments better than this otherwise you'll never pass the research project module.

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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mcjules wrote:

It was only in 1935 that all states and territories started calling it "Australia Day" [size=8]and apparently only in 1994 did it begin to be a public holiday for all.[/size]


mcjules wrote:

[size=7]I actually wasn't 100% correct. Technically in 1988 for the bicentenary, 26th Jan was a PH for everyone. 1994 was when it was "celebrated" universally.[/size]


trident wrote:
by the way a few examples prior to 1988...
http://www.calendar-australia.com/holidays/1983/
http://www.calendar-australia.com/holidays/1984/
http://www.calendar-australia.com/holidays/1987/

other random years the day off was moved to the friday or monday, but still celebrated on the 26th

that sinks your rewritten version of history

(keep digging)

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mcjules wrote:
BETHFC wrote:
I think it's unreasonable to expect our generation to pick up the bill for issues that started long before we were born.

I understand the sentiment but in reality life is like this. You can't take advantage of the benefits afforded to you by previous generations without taking on the bad things too.

If you're parents have a home loan and other debts (apart from HECS) when they pass away, that debt gets transferred to you. If the previous generation polluted the waterways meaning there is a shortage of potable water, you have to deal with it and find a solution.

The reality is it barely affects your day to day life and I struggle to understand why it's such an imposition to say "previous generations did horrible things to you and have put you in a shitty situation. We'll do our best to help you". Whether the way we're currently helping is the best way or not is another matter of course.


Lets say we offer them compensation (which given my NZ heritage will only result in severe issues and people will be personally affected), will it change the sentiment towards white Australia?

I don't have a problem helping aboriginals. I guess a good start would be finding out what aboriginal people want from aboriginals. An aboriginal indigenous affairs minister would be a start.
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trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:
BETHFC wrote:
I think it's unreasonable to expect our generation to pick up the bill for issues that started long before we were born.

I understand the sentiment but in reality life is like this. You can't take advantage of the benefits afforded to you by previous generations without taking on the bad things too.

If you're parents have a home loan and other debts (apart from HECS) when they pass away, that debt gets transferred to you. If the previous generation polluted the waterways meaning there is a shortage of potable water, you have to deal with it and find a solution.

The reality is it barely affects your day to day life and I struggle to understand why it's such an imposition to say "previous generations did horrible things to you and have put you in a shitty situation. We'll do our best to help you". Whether the way we're currently helping is the best way or not is another matter of course.


Yes, it seems BETHFC is having trouble coming to grips with his white anglo-saxon privilege


Privilege is a word used by intellectually inferior humans as a substitute to making awful stereotypes :lol:
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trident wrote:
Typical code cutter. Cant communicate nor comprehend the spoken language. :)


Says the dickhead using the word privilege due to a lack of any kind of argument :lol:
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11.mvfc.11 wrote:
AzzaMarch wrote:
11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Ignoring the cultural differences that lead to lower life expectancy, physiologically the Indigenous Australian is, on average, weaker to the non-Indigenous Australian.


Ok, I'll bite.

1- the "cultural differences' you speak of are directly caused by the govt policies of putting indigenous people of reserves, not allowing them education etc etc.

2- "On average, weaker"?? What does that even mean? What evidence do you have for this? Ridiculous statement.
Don't start with not allowing them education. The rural communities are hard to fund, and any assistance attempted is seen as white treachery.

There is a massive gulf in trust between the two parties that doesn't stand to be fixed by continual negative stereotypes on both ends.

Physiologically, the indigenous Australian is far more susceptible to alcoholism and the problems associated with that. Throw in higher rates of diabetes and heart problems and it is clear to see that they aren't as durable as the rest of us.


27% of crime in this country is committed by indigenous people comprising 3% of the population.

This is an issue.

How do we link this back to white people?
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Crime is determined by the prosecutor.
Thats how. :)
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trident wrote:
Crime is determined by the prosecutor.
Thats how. :)


So our laws are a problem?
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BETHFC wrote:
trident wrote:
Crime is determined by the prosecutor.
Thats how. :)


So our laws are a problem?


I didnt say that :)
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ricey has crackered :)

-PB

https://i.imgur.com/batge7K.jpg

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I wish people would realise that the country isn't split into British convicts and Aboriginals, a large part of our population wouldn't have had relatives in Australia until the mid 1900's or later. I saw a video of someone saying it is like having a party than a group of people coming in and killing everyone then organising a gathering each year on the anniversary, I share no relation to the people that came back then and most people in Australia don't.
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trident wrote:
BETHFC wrote:
trident wrote:
Crime is determined by the prosecutor.
Thats how. :)


So our laws are a problem?


I didnt say that :)


So you're making the call that white prosecutors/magistrates are corrupt and racist?

:lol: you've lost it Ricey MKII
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SocaWho wrote:
i have mixed feelings about a republic...its good that it hopefully opens a new chapter for indignous recognition and turning over a new leaf...but bad from a law perspective. By that i mean every facet of law would be rejigged to affect day to day livng...i mean where do you stand as a citizen ? , what are your rights?
the cost to the taxpayer would be massive. ...the laws will be rejigged by people who have an agenda for themselves that might not benefit everyone and only their constiuents.
I mean i get sick of Ray Martin telling me whats good for me...and whats not.
Eventually Australia will be a republic no question...but it seems people like Ray Martin want to jump head first without a gradual transition...people like Ray Martin actually turn off people who are undecided

Edited by Socawho: 27/1/2016 12:03:20 PM


This post is as uninformed as your comments on Mabo.
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BETHFC wrote:
mcjules wrote:
BETHFC wrote:
I think it's unreasonable to expect our generation to pick up the bill for issues that started long before we were born.

I understand the sentiment but in reality life is like this. You can't take advantage of the benefits afforded to you by previous generations without taking on the bad things too.

If you're parents have a home loan and other debts (apart from HECS) when they pass away, that debt gets transferred to you. If the previous generation polluted the waterways meaning there is a shortage of potable water, you have to deal with it and find a solution.

The reality is it barely affects your day to day life and I struggle to understand why it's such an imposition to say "previous generations did horrible things to you and have put you in a shitty situation. We'll do our best to help you". Whether the way we're currently helping is the best way or not is another matter of course.


Lets say we offer them compensation (which given my NZ heritage will only result in severe issues and people will be personally affected), will it change the sentiment towards white Australia?

I don't have a problem helping aboriginals. I guess a good start would be finding out what aboriginal people want from aboriginals. An aboriginal indigenous affairs minister would be a start.

The only thing that will change the sentiment towards white Australia is when they're treated with dignity and respect.

There's no one solution that's going to fix everything, I agree that an aboriginal affairs minister would be a great start.

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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BETHFC wrote:
trident wrote:
BETHFC wrote:
trident wrote:
Crime is determined by the prosecutor.
Thats how. :)


So our laws are a problem?


I didnt say that :)


So you're making the call that white prosecutors/magistrates are corrupt and racist?

:lol: you've lost it Ricey MKII

After making a complete fool of himself he's reverted to obtuse statements where he can't be pinned down. Classic RC.

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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mcjules wrote:
BETHFC wrote:
mcjules wrote:
BETHFC wrote:
I think it's unreasonable to expect our generation to pick up the bill for issues that started long before we were born.

I understand the sentiment but in reality life is like this. You can't take advantage of the benefits afforded to you by previous generations without taking on the bad things too.

If you're parents have a home loan and other debts (apart from HECS) when they pass away, that debt gets transferred to you. If the previous generation polluted the waterways meaning there is a shortage of potable water, you have to deal with it and find a solution.

The reality is it barely affects your day to day life and I struggle to understand why it's such an imposition to say "previous generations did horrible things to you and have put you in a shitty situation. We'll do our best to help you". Whether the way we're currently helping is the best way or not is another matter of course.


Lets say we offer them compensation (which given my NZ heritage will only result in severe issues and people will be personally affected), will it change the sentiment towards white Australia?

I don't have a problem helping aboriginals. I guess a good start would be finding out what aboriginal people want from aboriginals. An aboriginal indigenous affairs minister would be a start.

The only thing that will change the sentiment towards white Australia is when they're treated with dignity and respect.

There's no one solution that's going to fix everything, I agree that an aboriginal affairs minister would be a great start.


Respect is a two way street. Both sides have a long way to go there.
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"a great start"?

Australia used to have an aboriginal affairs minister.
More proof mcjules came down with the last shower :)
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trident wrote:
"a great start"?

Australia used to have an aboriginal affairs minister.
More proof mcjules came down with the last shower :)

Ah yes. I had to check but Mal Brough was indigenous affairs minister for a couple of years. Good pick up ricey.

Still one person in 45 years that the portfolio has existed and that one being 9 years ago is not a great record.

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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mcjules wrote:
trident wrote:
"a great start"?

Australia used to have an aboriginal affairs minister.
More proof mcjules came down with the last shower :)

Ah yes. I had to check but Mal Brough was indigenous affairs minister for a couple of years. Good pick up ricey.

Still one person in 45 years that the portfolio has existed and that one being 9 years ago is not a great record.


Mr Google is now moving the goalposts as he's been found out.
Keep googling :)
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Why does ricecrackers have to ruin every meaningful discussion? Ban him and rid the forum of this cancer.

E

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"9GABmeme420" wrote:
Why does ricecrackers have to ruin every meaningful discussion? Ban him and rid the forum of this cancer.

He'll just create a new account and new "persona". I had my fun with him today and played my part in ruining the discussion so what I'm about to say is hypocritical but it's best to just ignore him.

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u4486662 wrote:
I think people need to be reminded that the prime minister of this country, elected by the people, apologised to the indigenous population for past injustices almost 8 years ago. Yep, its been almost 8 years.

There will never be a moment in our history that acknowledges wrongs of the past as strong as this one. The fact that this victim mentality and projection of white guilt is still perpetuated in this nation with even more fervour tells me that even if Australia day was changed, even if the Aboriginal flag was adopted as the national flag, even if Australia day was changed to invasion day and was made as a day of mourning for the nation, people will not be satisfied.

The aboriginal people will never be free, until successful aboriginal people like Stan Grant, remind his people that the reason he is where he is at the moment, is because he put his head down, worked hard, got an education and started at the bottom and didn't act like a victim.

The reality is that if you want to be successful in the western world, The Brookings institute showed that you have to do three things:

1) stay in school and get an education
2) don't have children before you get married. ie, don't become a single parent.
3) Get a job, any job and start at the bottom and work your way up.

There is a mentality out there that past injustices perpetuate current failure. They do not. This is a myth.

Let's look at some examples:

Jewish people have suffered an enormous level of persecution, resulting in almost their entire extermination as recently as just 70 years ago. This is a far greater injustice than the Aborigines suffered and it was more recent. Despite this, Jewish people are extremely successful. The assumption is that there is some zionist conspiracy. The reality is that CULTURALLY, jewish people teach their children as a bare minimum, that they must get an education. A good education. The stereotype is that you are not really Jewish until you get into law school or medicine. This is drummed into them by their families and culture from a young age. So in just a few years, Jewish people rose from people exterminated like vermin, to dominating the world. Mostly because the US is a meritocracy that rewards hard work and education.

Lets look at another example. 30 or 40 years ago, Asian and SE Asian populations came to Australia with virtually nothing, from poverty and persecution and suffered racism.

Despite this, you could argue that Asian people are perhaps the most successful demographic in Australia. They dominate the halls of academia. They dominate school test scores. Universities are overwhelmingly dominated by Asians. The reason is again CULTURAL. Asian families instill into their children that if they want to be successful they need to work hard, get a good education at a bare minimum and be disciplined. We all know the "tiger mum" stereotype and thats cos it works.

The reason why Aboriginal people do poorly is cultural. It is instilled into them by their families that they are entitled to things, that white people are out to get them and are responsible for their failure and that there is no point in trying. This is perpetuated by every man and his dog writing articles that constantly link past injustices to current failure instead of cultural problems. This victim mentality helps no-one.

No-one in human history has ever been successful without hard work, dedication and discipline. Even children born into extreme wealth, will eventually fail if a strong mentality is not forced into them from a young age. Privileged, spoilt children eventually fail.

I know people on here may have difficulty believing this but its true. Capitalism is colour blind. It cares only about the colour green. Make yourself valuable by getting an education and working hard. Instill into your children that no-one is going to help them unless they help themselves. Don't be a victim or you will fail spectacularly.

Obviously, children who grow up with parents who are useless drug addicts are not going to have this mentality drilled into them because their parents are hopeless, but rewarding this with a victim mentality solves no deep cultural problem, thats why successful Aboriginals in society need to be good role models by showing their people they became successful through hard work, and that it is possible for Aborigines, like it is for everyone, to be succesful if good values are drummed into them.



+1

trident earlier made the comment: "It is becoming more and more socially unacceptable to "celebrate" Australia Day and what we're seeing now among progressives and intellectual young people (who are the future of this country) is active participation in the day of mourning and the Invasion Day marches around the land".

I understand that in certain circles (particularly those who affiliate with the ABC, Greens, Guardian, newmatilda and Buzzfeed) this view gets a lot of air-time, but to most people outside of these echo chambers, this is how it comes across:
[youtube]/watch?v=TMTkedIUX8U[/youtube]

The ironic thing about the race-baiting, self-loathing (mostly white) brigade is that they pose the same problem to our society that the flag cape wearing, "We grew here you flew here" mob pose. They want to segregate our egalitarian, multi-cultural society into "us" vs "them" defined by ethnicity, and hold people to different standards based on ethnicity alone. Both groups, despite being on opposite ends of the spectrum, want to tear down one of the truly great qualities of our nation that has made Australia such an appealing destination for tourists and those keen to start a new life here (legally) and divide our nation instead- over time and race- two issues that can't be controlled.



Edited by Captain Haddock: 28/1/2016 03:24:19 PM

There are only two intellectually honest debate tactics: (a) pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s facts, or (b) pointing out errors or omissions in your opponent’s logic. All other debate tactics are intellectually dishonest - John T. Reed

The Most Popular Presidential Candidate Of All Time (TM) cant go to a sports stadium in the country he presides over. Figure that one out...




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a couple of great posts there.
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trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:

It was only in 1935 that all states and territories started calling it "Australia Day" [size=8]and apparently only in 1994 did it begin to be a public holiday for all.[/size]


mcjules wrote:

[size=7]I actually wasn't 100% correct. Technically in 1988 for the bicentenary, 26th Jan was a PH for everyone. 1994 was when it was "celebrated" universally.[/size]


trident wrote:
by the way a few examples prior to 1988...
http://www.calendar-australia.com/holidays/1983/
http://www.calendar-australia.com/holidays/1984/
http://www.calendar-australia.com/holidays/1987/

other random years the day off was moved to the friday or monday, but still celebrated on the 26th

that sinks your rewritten version of history

(keep digging)


:)
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trident wrote:
trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:

It was only in 1935 that all states and territories started calling it "Australia Day" [size=8]and apparently only in 1994 did it begin to be a public holiday for all.[/size]


mcjules wrote:

[size=7]I actually wasn't 100% correct. Technically in 1988 for the bicentenary, 26th Jan was a PH for everyone. 1994 was when it was "celebrated" universally.[/size]


trident wrote:
by the way a few examples prior to 1988...
http://www.calendar-australia.com/holidays/1983/
http://www.calendar-australia.com/holidays/1984/
http://www.calendar-australia.com/holidays/1987/

other random years the day off was moved to the friday or monday, but still celebrated on the 26th

that sinks your rewritten version of history

(keep digging)


:)

Ricey my son. I felt sorry for you yesterday because your credibility (did you have any?) took a beating and I know image is a big issue for teenagers so I gave you a hint that I hoped you would pick up on why you should let this go. Unfortunately you have kept going so I'm going to have to tell it to you straight.

1. You're challenging the history of Australia day by the Australia Day council. The article was written by Dr Elizabeth Kwan who as her bio states on the site
Quote:
Formerly a senior lecturer in History and Australian Studies at the University of South Australia and a senior researcher in the Department of the Senate, Parliament House, Canberra, she currently works as a historian in Darwin.

You better have a pretty definitive piece of evidence to back your claim up. Especially as your current schtick is to "trust the researchers" when it comes to climate change.
2. Your evidence is a no name website that generates calendars based on any year you give it based on the current public holiday legislation.

http://www.calendar-australia.com/holidays/1638/ Oh look this nation's first people were celebrating on the 26th January over 150 years before the British even arrived. Obviously that date is perfectly appropriate!

A bit of advice, go through and edit all your posts to be empty and if you haven't already, create a new account where you be yourself. People might actually like you if you're genuine.

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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trident wrote:
I wonder if it would be possible for mcjules to not respond to any of my posts for one week.
I'm unsure why he takes my political opinions so personally.

:)


I guess not :)
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mcjules wrote:
trident wrote:
trident wrote:
mcjules wrote:

It was only in 1935 that all states and territories started calling it "Australia Day" [size=8]and apparently only in 1994 did it begin to be a public holiday for all.[/size]


mcjules wrote:

[size=7]I actually wasn't 100% correct. Technically in 1988 for the bicentenary, 26th Jan was a PH for everyone. 1994 was when it was "celebrated" universally.[/size]


trident wrote:
by the way a few examples prior to 1988...
http://www.calendar-australia.com/holidays/1983/
http://www.calendar-australia.com/holidays/1984/
http://www.calendar-australia.com/holidays/1987/

other random years the day off was moved to the friday or monday, but still celebrated on the 26th

that sinks your rewritten version of history

(keep digging)


:)

Ricey my son. I felt sorry for you yesterday because your credibility (did you have any?) took a beating and I know image is a big issue for teenagers so I gave you a hint that I hoped you would pick up on why you should let this go. Unfortunately you have kept going so I'm going to have to tell it to you straight.

1. You're challenging the history of Australia day by the Australia Day council. The article was written by Dr Elizabeth Kwan who as her bio states on the site
Quote:
Formerly a senior lecturer in History and Australian Studies at the University of South Australia and a senior researcher in the Department of the Senate, Parliament House, Canberra, she currently works as a historian in Darwin.

You better have a pretty definitive piece of evidence to back your claim up. Especially as your current schtick is to "trust the researchers" when it comes to climate change.
2. Your evidence is a no name website that generates calendars based on any year you give it based on the current public holiday legislation.

http://www.calendar-australia.com/holidays/1638/ Oh look this nation's first people were celebrating on the 26th January over 150 years before the British even arrived. Obviously that date is perfectly appropriate!

A bit of advice, go through and edit all your posts to be empty and if you haven't already, create a new account where you be yourself. People might actually like you if you're genuine.


Who is this person from Adelaide working in Darwin? Sounds like a real success story. :)

You werent born during the period referred. We've established this now. Your entire knowledge base has been derived from Google. :)

You're actually claiming Australia Day was never a public holiday on the 26th prior to 1988.
I'm quite sure some older forum members will tell you otherwise.
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Some kids just don't want to be helped :lol:

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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keep digging :)
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Captain Haddock wrote:
u4486662 wrote:
I think people need to be reminded that the prime minister of this country, elected by the people, apologised to the indigenous population for past injustices almost 8 years ago. Yep, its been almost 8 years.

There will never be a moment in our history that acknowledges wrongs of the past as strong as this one. The fact that this victim mentality and projection of white guilt is still perpetuated in this nation with even more fervour tells me that even if Australia day was changed, even if the Aboriginal flag was adopted as the national flag, even if Australia day was changed to invasion day and was made as a day of mourning for the nation, people will not be satisfied.

The aboriginal people will never be free, until successful aboriginal people like Stan Grant, remind his people that the reason he is where he is at the moment, is because he put his head down, worked hard, got an education and started at the bottom and didn't act like a victim.

The reality is that if you want to be successful in the western world, The Brookings institute showed that you have to do three things:

1) stay in school and get an education
2) don't have children before you get married. ie, don't become a single parent.
3) Get a job, any job and start at the bottom and work your way up.

There is a mentality out there that past injustices perpetuate current failure. They do not. This is a myth.

Let's look at some examples:

Jewish people have suffered an enormous level of persecution, resulting in almost their entire extermination as recently as just 70 years ago. This is a far greater injustice than the Aborigines suffered and it was more recent. Despite this, Jewish people are extremely successful. The assumption is that there is some zionist conspiracy. The reality is that CULTURALLY, jewish people teach their children as a bare minimum, that they must get an education. A good education. The stereotype is that you are not really Jewish until you get into law school or medicine. This is drummed into them by their families and culture from a young age. So in just a few years, Jewish people rose from people exterminated like vermin, to dominating the world. Mostly because the US is a meritocracy that rewards hard work and education.

Lets look at another example. 30 or 40 years ago, Asian and SE Asian populations came to Australia with virtually nothing, from poverty and persecution and suffered racism.

Despite this, you could argue that Asian people are perhaps the most successful demographic in Australia. They dominate the halls of academia. They dominate school test scores. Universities are overwhelmingly dominated by Asians. The reason is again CULTURAL. Asian families instill into their children that if they want to be successful they need to work hard, get a good education at a bare minimum and be disciplined. We all know the "tiger mum" stereotype and thats cos it works.

The reason why Aboriginal people do poorly is cultural. It is instilled into them by their families that they are entitled to things, that white people are out to get them and are responsible for their failure and that there is no point in trying. This is perpetuated by every man and his dog writing articles that constantly link past injustices to current failure instead of cultural problems. This victim mentality helps no-one.

No-one in human history has ever been successful without hard work, dedication and discipline. Even children born into extreme wealth, will eventually fail if a strong mentality is not forced into them from a young age. Privileged, spoilt children eventually fail.

I know people on here may have difficulty believing this but its true. Capitalism is colour blind. It cares only about the colour green. Make yourself valuable by getting an education and working hard. Instill into your children that no-one is going to help them unless they help themselves. Don't be a victim or you will fail spectacularly.

Obviously, children who grow up with parents who are useless drug addicts are not going to have this mentality drilled into them because their parents are hopeless, but rewarding this with a victim mentality solves no deep cultural problem, thats why successful Aboriginals in society need to be good role models by showing their people they became successful through hard work, and that it is possible for Aborigines, like it is for everyone, to be succesful if good values are drummed into them.



+1

trident earlier made the comment: "It is becoming more and more socially unacceptable to "celebrate" Australia Day and what we're seeing now among progressives and intellectual young people (who are the future of this country) is active participation in the day of mourning and the Invasion Day marches around the land".

I understand that in certain circles (particularly those who affiliate with the ABC, Greens, Guardian, newmatilda and Buzzfeed) this view gets a lot of air-time, but to most people outside of these echo chambers, this is how it comes across:
[youtube]/watch?v=TMTkedIUX8U[/youtube]

The ironic thing about the race-baiting, self-loathing (mostly white) brigade is that they pose the same problem to our society that the flag cape wearing, "We grew here you flew here" mob pose. They want to segregate our egalitarian, multi-cultural society into "us" vs "them" defined by ethnicity, and hold people to different standards based on ethnicity alone. Both groups, despite being on opposite ends of the spectrum, want to tear down one of the truly great qualities of our nation that has made Australia such an appealing destination for tourists and those keen to start a new life here (legally) and divide our nation instead- over time and race- two issues that can't be controlled.



Edited by Captain Haddock: 28/1/2016 03:24:19 PM

[youtube]yxz7CYkQltE[/youtube]

"as long as you a good fella"

:)

I grew up listening to triple A (Aboriginal station Brisbane), cause my step-dad loves country music

Edited by scott21: 28/1/2016 07:35:26 PM
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What I think a lot of the kids don't understand is the effect 1988 had on the nation. I remember the bicentary, it was a very big deal.
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scott21 wrote:
What I think a lot of the kids don't understand is the effect 1988 had on the nation. I remember the bicentary, it was a very big deal.


We had Australia Day public holiday before the bicentenary. :)
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trident wrote:
scott21 wrote:
What I think a lot of the kids don't understand is the effect 1988 had on the nation. I remember the bicentary, it was a very big deal.



poop
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scott21 wrote:
trident wrote:
scott21 wrote:
What I think a lot of the kids don't understand is the effect 1988 had on the nation. I remember the bicentary, it was a very big deal.



poop


You still have a face full of it.
I thought I told you to wipe it out of your eyes. :)
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trident wrote:
scott21 wrote:
trident wrote:
scott21 wrote:
What I think a lot of the kids don't understand is the effect 1988 had on the nation. I remember the bicentary, it was a very big deal.



poop



more poop
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How mature of you :)

So even though I lived through the 1980s and remember the Australia Day January 26th national public holiday, these children are trying to tell me it didnt exist :)
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scott21 wrote:
What I think a lot of the kids don't understand is the effect 1988 had on the nation. I remember the bicentary, it was a very big deal.

It was a big deal. I remember it too but it probably shouldn't have been. On the other hand our centenary of federation was very lame when it probably shouldn't have been.

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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"The tradition of having Australia Day as a national holiday on 26 January is a recent one. Not until 1935 did all the Australian states and territories use that name to mark that date. Not until 1994 did they begin to celebrate Australia Day consistently as a public holiday on that date".

http://www.australiaday.org.au/australia-day/history/

From the official Australia Day website....
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"To summarise, New South Wales — Sydney especially — has long celebrated 26 January to mark the beginning of British occupation of Australia. Victoria and the other Australian states and territories, persuaded by the Australian Natives' Association, came to accept Australia Day by 1935, celebrating it together with a long weekend. Since 1979, federal government promotion of an Australia Day that was less British and more Australian gave the day a higher profile in the hope of unifying Australia's increasingly diverse population. The long weekend gave way to the day itself in 1994, and ten years later Canberra displaced Sydney as the day's focal point.

However, Aboriginal Australians have continued to feel excluded from what has long been a British pioneering settler celebration, symbolised by the raising of the Union Jack and later the Australian flag which bears the British flag. Debate over the date and nature of Australia Day continues as the National Australia Day Council seeks to meet the challenge of making 26 January a day all Australians can accept and enjoy."

http://www.australiaday.org.au/australia-day/history/australia-day-26-january-a-day-for-all-australians/
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Apparently that history has been "rewritten" Azza :lol:

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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mcjules wrote:
Apparently that history has been "rewritten" Azza :lol:


Its been rewritten on that website which doesnt reflect reality.
If you were around during that time you'd know, but you only have Google, you dont have any life experience.


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AzzaMarch wrote:
"The tradition of having Australia Day as a national holiday on 26 January is a recent one. Not until 1935 did all the Australian states and territories use that name to mark that date. Not until 1994 did they begin to celebrate Australia Day consistently as a public holiday on that date".

http://www.australiaday.org.au/australia-day/history/

From the official Australia Day website....


"official Australia Day website"?

its not even a government website. its a .org
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Eat a snickers ricey.


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Why am I getting deja vu? If only there were lots of kooky blog sites about denying that the Australia day wasn't always a public holiday for all on the 26th of January. This thread might have get to 80 odd pages then ;)

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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mcjules wrote:
Why am I getting deja vu? If only there were lots of kooky blog sites about denying that the Australia day wasn't always a public holiday for all on the 26th of January. This thread might have get to 80 odd pages then ;)


You're going to be in for a shock

mcjules wrote:

It was only in 1935 that all states and territories started calling it "Australia Day" [size=8]and apparently only in 1994 did it begin to be a public holiday for all.[/size]


quoted for reference
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Quote:
Not until 1994 did they begin to celebrate Australia Day [size=8]consistently [/size]as a public holiday on that date".


thats because, as I've already stated on some occasions the public holiday was on the Monday or Friday when the day fell on a
weekend
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FFS Does it really matter? No matter what day Australia Day is lefty douche bags will always turn into an "Invasion day" guilt trip.


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scotty21 wrote:
FFS Does it really matter? No matter what day Australia Day is lefty douche bags will always turn into an "Invasion day" guilt trip.

False

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Can we rational folk keep Australia day and the Aboriginals and leftists have their own day?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Sorry_Day
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11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Can we rational folk keep Australia day and the Aboriginals and leftists have their own day?


They can have Tasmania. That way we're cut off from their fucktardery permanently :) I'm talking about the lefties and white-guilt-proponents (which may include some aboriginals).
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11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Can we rational folk keep Australia day and the Aboriginals and leftists have their own day?


It happens on both the left and the right, but dismissing the "other side's" opinions just because they belong to that other side is never constructive. It's just a useless contribution to the discussion.

And are you seriously automatically writing off the opinion of Aboriginals on this issue as "irrational?" This is an obviously stupid post.
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u4486662 wrote:
Obviously, as I expected, my post has created some consternation. So lets explore some more.

I'm sure people here would agree that Jewish people have suffered discrimination in just about every place they have lived for much of the last few thousand years.
They've been hated by the Christians, and are still hated by fundamentalists. Muslims detest Jews. There are 1.5 billion muslims and just 14 million Jews. They were nearly exterminated from the planet as recently as 70 years ago.

Ok, so we can all acknowledge, that like Aborigines, Jews have suffered extensive injustices and that those injustices have been fairly recent.

However, we can all agree, that Jews are tremendously successful. Why?

Is it because people have acknowledged injustices of the past, or is it because its built into their culture? You know plenty of people still hate jews.

What lessons can be learned about other discriminated but successful cultures like Jews and Asians who came to the western world that can be applied to the disadvantage faced by Aborigines?

One school of thought might be to say that to fix the problem we need to acknowledge injustices of the past and apologise for them. Provide a greater slice of welfare than what other people get. Give them free health care and free medications rather than just subsidised ones. All of these have great intentions. They are initiated by government and industry with the greatest of intentions to help people. But do they really help?

Or do we need to change the culture? How do we change the culture for the better? Is it going to change for the better by perpetuating a culture upon young Aboriginal people that they can't be successful because of injustices committed upon their relatives in the past? That the system is against them?

Or do we instill into them that they too can be successful if they stay in school and work hard. Rather than blaming society.

The reason why I'm saying this is that it is often Non-aboriginal people who perpetuate the idea that the system is against Aborigines or any marginalised group and I think this does more harm than good.

One of the ways this culture of failure can be broken, I believe, is for successful Aboriginal people to come out and say that they got to where they are by valuing education and hard work. I think they can be great role models in that regard.


when you get kicked out of 109 countries since 250AD is it because everyone is falsely persecuting you, or is it because of the things you are doing and native populations are trying to protect themselves?

Its interesting the Jewish Talmudic scriptures always warned never to let the goyim (non jew) know about their religion/law as they (the goyim) would surely expel them from their lands if they knew the threat. Funny that these same scriptures entitle them to rule and command over the whole world.

I find it interesting you insinuate Aboriginals are playing victim and lazy whilst Jews are successful because "Hard work"
Jews are the masters of playing victim. An old Polish proverb "The Jew shrieks in agony as he strikes you" rings true.
The holocaust industry is real and heavily promoted world wide, reparations are in the billions and still rising . The victors write the history and it is illegal and socially unacceptable to even question some of these so called embellished facts.
Quote:
The media is the most powerful entity on earth. They have the power to make the innocent guilty and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power. Because they control the minds of the masses.
-malcolm X

I wonder why we never hear or learn about the Jewish led genocidal atrocities of Holodomor or the Bolshevik revolution and the dirty business of the politics of the time throughout Europe. I wonder why people like Scotty Macintyre the SBS journo are instantly dismissed when daring question the ww2 narrative.

Then we have Israel, A fascist state completely opposite to what they lobby vigorously in the west, conquered by a so called nearly extinct people raising an army to invade a peaceful land and massacring those that would not comply with their displacement that continues today. An establishment that makes apartheid South Africa look like a summer camp in comparison.

[youtube]oCKWDarNdGw[/youtube]

Speaking of welfare, Israel receives over 3 billon dollars annually from the United states of America. Its largest foreign aid contribution.

The Jews are an intelligent race, no doubt. I'm sure they work hard too. But you're ignoring that they are a hyper ethnocentric cohesive group that deliberately work to undermine their competitors, divide and conquer and promote individualistic weakened societies that they can monopolize.
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11.mvfc.11 wrote:
JP wrote:
11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Can we rational folk keep Australia day and the Aboriginals and leftists have their own day?


It happens on both the left and the right, but dismissing the "other side's" opinions just because they belong to that other side is never constructive. It's just a useless contribution to the discussion.

And are you seriously automatically writing off the opinion of Aboriginals on this issue as "irrational?" This is an obviously stupid post.
It is poorly worded, I do apologise. Post work friday beers have taken my language skills down a touch.

The Aboriginals are right in their desire for a day to celebrate their culture and contribution to the land.

This however does not mean that we as British, Greek, Chinese, etc. descendants should feel obliged to not celebrate our culture on the day we first settled.

I assume this is poorly worded again as a non-British (and non-aboriginal) person, the day British people settled here is far less important than a bunch of other days of national significance.

Move the national holiday to another day along with the associated "national celebrations". Then if you want to have a bbq on the 26th of January to celebrate your British ancestors arriving here there will be far less of a kerfuffle.

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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mcjules wrote:
11.mvfc.11 wrote:
JP wrote:
11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Can we rational folk keep Australia day and the Aboriginals and leftists have their own day?


It happens on both the left and the right, but dismissing the "other side's" opinions just because they belong to that other side is never constructive. It's just a useless contribution to the discussion.

And are you seriously automatically writing off the opinion of Aboriginals on this issue as "irrational?" This is an obviously stupid post.
It is poorly worded, I do apologise. Post work friday beers have taken my language skills down a touch.

The Aboriginals are right in their desire for a day to celebrate their culture and contribution to the land.

This however does not mean that we as British, Greek, Chinese, etc. descendants should feel obliged to not celebrate our culture on the day we first settled.

I assume this is poorly worded again as a non-British (and non-aboriginal) person, the day British people settled here is far less important than a bunch of other days of national significance.

Move the national holiday to another day along with the associated "national celebrations". Then if you want to have a bbq on the 26th of January to celebrate your British ancestors arriving here there will be far less of a kerfuffle.

or we just keep it like it is
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scott21 wrote:
mcjules wrote:
11.mvfc.11 wrote:
JP wrote:
11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Can we rational folk keep Australia day and the Aboriginals and leftists have their own day?


It happens on both the left and the right, but dismissing the "other side's" opinions just because they belong to that other side is never constructive. It's just a useless contribution to the discussion.

And are you seriously automatically writing off the opinion of Aboriginals on this issue as "irrational?" This is an obviously stupid post.
It is poorly worded, I do apologise. Post work friday beers have taken my language skills down a touch.

The Aboriginals are right in their desire for a day to celebrate their culture and contribution to the land.

This however does not mean that we as British, Greek, Chinese, etc. descendants should feel obliged to not celebrate our culture on the day we first settled.

I assume this is poorly worded again as a non-British (and non-aboriginal) person, the day British people settled here is far less important than a bunch of other days of national significance.

Move the national holiday to another day along with the associated "national celebrations". Then if you want to have a bbq on the 26th of January to celebrate your British ancestors arriving here there will be far less of a kerfuffle.

or we just keep it like it is

Yep and then you can keep whinging about people making you feel guilty for being white.

Sounds perfect :lol:

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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I don't feel guilty about being white.

Or a man.

I live in Europe but it doesn't change my view.

I am considering moving to the USA, I won't have white guilt if I live there either.


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"poor choice of words" :lol: I meant whinging that people are trying to make you feel guilty.

Good luck in the USA.

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mcjules wrote:
"poor choice of words" :lol: I meant whinging that people are trying to make you feel guilty.

Good luck in the USA.

Thanks.

They are doing a poor job if they are.

Are you trying to make me feel guilty?
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scott21 wrote:
mcjules wrote:
"poor choice of words" :lol: I meant whinging that people are trying to make you feel guilty.

Good luck in the USA.

Thanks.

They are doing a poor job if they are.

Are you trying to make me feel guilty?

Nope, which is why I find the whinging about it a bit pathetic to be honest.

We can go in circles about this (and we have already). The facts are:
1. Celebrating Australia day on the 26th January is hurtful to our nation's first people
2. Most Australia day official events (i.e. government run) tend to emphasise a lot our multiculturalism and inclusiveness of our society. Having it on the 26th January contradicts this idea due to fact 1
3. There are other more inclusive and arguably more meaningful dates from a national perspective that could be used instead of the day the English arrived to establish a prison.

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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I think you can celebrate Australia Day without denigrating or not being sympathetic and understanding the point of view of the indigenous community.

Whilst I am not advocating changing the day or date of our national celebration I certainly wouldn't be adverse to considering whether another day/date may be more appropriate for our national day of reflection and celebration.

After all if the day/event isn't able to be celebrated by all...how much does this diminish the occasion?

Maybe Federation would be a better date?
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mcjules wrote:
scott21 wrote:
mcjules wrote:
"poor choice of words" :lol: I meant whinging that people are trying to make you feel guilty.

Good luck in the USA.

Thanks.

They are doing a poor job if they are.

Are you trying to make me feel guilty?

Nope, which is why I find the whinging about it a bit pathetic to be honest.

We can go in circles about this (and we have already). The facts are:
1. Celebrating Australia day on the 26th January is hurtful to our nation's first people
2. Most Australia day official events (i.e. government run) tend to emphasise a lot our multiculturalism and inclusiveness of our society. Having it on the 26th January contradicts this idea due to fact 1
3. There are other more inclusive and arguably more meaningful dates from a national perspective that could be used instead of the day the English arrived to establish a prison.


You sound like you have issues with not being an "English Australian".
I don't have any English blood in me.



Edited by scott21: 29/1/2016 11:14:06 PM
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scott21 wrote:
mcjules wrote:
scott21 wrote:
mcjules wrote:
"poor choice of words" :lol: I meant whinging that people are trying to make you feel guilty.

Good luck in the USA.

Thanks.

They are doing a poor job if they are.

Are you trying to make me feel guilty?

Nope, which is why I find the whinging about it a bit pathetic to be honest.

We can go in circles about this (and we have already). The facts are:
1. Celebrating Australia day on the 26th January is hurtful to our nation's first people
2. Most Australia day official events (i.e. government run) tend to emphasise a lot our multiculturalism and inclusiveness of our society. Having it on the 26th January contradicts this idea due to fact 1
3. There are other more inclusive and arguably more meaningful dates from a national perspective that could be used instead of the day the English arrived to establish a prison.


You sound like you have issues with not being an "English Australian".
I don't have any English blood in me.

You sound like a lot of things :lol:

Nope no issue at all, proud of my heritage and comfortable with my place in society. Many british people have made a great contribution to this country so no bone to pick with them either.

Anything else?

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

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mcjules wrote:
scott21 wrote:
mcjules wrote:
scott21 wrote:
mcjules wrote:
"poor choice of words" :lol: I meant whinging that people are trying to make you feel guilty.

Good luck in the USA.

Thanks.

They are doing a poor job if they are.

Are you trying to make me feel guilty?

Nope, which is why I find the whinging about it a bit pathetic to be honest.

We can go in circles about this (and we have already). The facts are:
1. Celebrating Australia day on the 26th January is hurtful to our nation's first people
2. Most Australia day official events (i.e. government run) tend to emphasise a lot our multiculturalism and inclusiveness of our society. Having it on the 26th January contradicts this idea due to fact 1
3. There are other more inclusive and arguably more meaningful dates from a national perspective that could be used instead of the day the English arrived to establish a prison.


You sound like you have issues with not being an "English Australian".
I don't have any English blood in me.

You sound like a lot of things :lol:

Nope no issue at all, proud of my heritage and comfortable with my place in society. Many british people have made a great contribution to this country so no bone to pick with them either.

Anything else?

Not really.

:d
I'll check;

- change the flag
- become a republic
- change national anthem
- should we change the name of the country? It is taken from Latin but was named by the British
- should we scrap our legal system based on British common law and adopt indigenous law?
- change national day

Should probably stop celebrating Xmas & Easter on case it offends anyone

Edited by scott21: 29/1/2016 11:29:23 PM
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& the Melbourne Cup is offensive to horses
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scott21 wrote:
mcjules wrote:
scott21 wrote:
mcjules wrote:
scott21 wrote:
mcjules wrote:
"poor choice of words" :lol: I meant whinging that people are trying to make you feel guilty.

Good luck in the USA.

Thanks.

They are doing a poor job if they are.

Are you trying to make me feel guilty?

Nope, which is why I find the whinging about it a bit pathetic to be honest.

We can go in circles about this (and we have already). The facts are:
1. Celebrating Australia day on the 26th January is hurtful to our nation's first people
2. Most Australia day official events (i.e. government run) tend to emphasise a lot our multiculturalism and inclusiveness of our society. Having it on the 26th January contradicts this idea due to fact 1
3. There are other more inclusive and arguably more meaningful dates from a national perspective that could be used instead of the day the English arrived to establish a prison.


You sound like you have issues with not being an "English Australian".
I don't have any English blood in me.

You sound like a lot of things :lol:

Nope no issue at all, proud of my heritage and comfortable with my place in society. Many british people have made a great contribution to this country so no bone to pick with them either.

Anything else?

Not really.

:d
I'll check;

- change the flag - Yep
- become a republic - Yep
- change national anthem - Already got rid of God Save The Queen, should we go back to it?
- should we change the name of the country? It is taken from Latin but was named by the British - Nope
- should we scrap our legal system based on British common law and adopt indigenous law? - Nope but indigenous people should be able to have some flexibility in regards to their own laws in some circumstances provided all parties agree. Much like Sharia law courts for family matters for muslims.
- change national day - Yep preferably to the date we become a republic

Should probably stop celebrating Xmas & Easter on case it offends anyone - Nope, Christmas in particular transcends christianity these days and many people celebrate it

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to express my views on a broader range of subjects.

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scott21 wrote:
& the Melbourne Cup is offensive to horses

Always good to throw out some ridiculous ones to try and belittle a perfectly valid argument.=d>

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Pfft I can agree with indigenous law as it already happens, but you are suggesting another group of people should have their own laws?

Australian Law for all non-indigenous inhabitants.


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scott21 wrote:
Pfft I can agree with indigenous law as it already happens, but you are suggesting another group of people should have their own laws?

Australian Law for all non-indigenous inhabitants.

For civil and family matters sure, provided all parties agree and the judgements don't cross any criminal lines. Why not?

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mcjules wrote:
scott21 wrote:
Pfft I can agree with indigenous law as it already happens, but you are suggesting another group of people should have their own laws?

Australian Law for all non-indigenous inhabitants.

For civil and family matters sure, provided all parties agree and the judgements don't cross any criminal lines. Why not?

Go to Indonesia for that.

Australian law should be the ultimate and only power in Australia.
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mcjules wrote:
scott21 wrote:
Pfft I can agree with indigenous law as it already happens, but you are suggesting another group of people should have their own laws?

Australian Law for all non-indigenous inhabitants.

For civil and family matters sure, provided all parties agree and the judgements don't cross any criminal lines. Why not?

Slippery slope much?
it can set a very dangerous precedent....
Next thing you know, some muslims might demand Sharia Law.
Equal rights are important yes....but if you keep splitting the hairs...some might keep pushing the envelope to the point where national sovreignty will cease to exist.


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Sick of the aboriginal victim mentalility tbh. They already receive ridiculous amounts of benefits and handouts. Sure their life expectancy is lower, who'd have thought excessive drinking and smoking puts you in the ground sooner. Everyone already knows the dangers of these drugs so more government money won't increase awareness.

I'm open to changing Australia Day. It's a strange date to celebrate, obviously offensive to aboriginals and doesn't reflect our multiculturalism anyway. But all the other grievances Aboriginals have can fuck off.
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Dan_The_Red wrote:
Sick of the aboriginal victim mentalility tbh. They already receive ridiculous amounts of benefits and handouts. Sure their life expectancy is lower, who'd have thought excessive drinking and smoking puts you in the ground sooner. Everyone already knows the dangers of these drugs so more government money won't increase awareness.

I'm open to changing Australia Day. It's a strange date to celebrate, obviously offensive to aboriginals and doesn't reflect our multiculturalism anyway. But all the other grievances Aboriginals have can fuck off.

As i was saying...it seems that theres no solution.
i dont know what can be done .
the only solution i can see fit is help them increase their health with the hope their life expectancy improves. ie better nutrition and not allowing them access to cigs and alchohol.
Saying sorry is one thing but ot wont make their problens go away...a bit like Bob Hawkes speech on kids in poverty

Edited by Socawho: 30/1/2016 12:27:40 PM
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Dan_The_Red wrote:
They already receive ridiculous amounts of benefits and handouts.


That is just not true. It is yet another piece of urban mythology that gets thrown around whenever the issue of the gap in indigenous health outcomes comes to light.

Please outline the specific "ridiculous amounts of benefits and handouts" - otherwise you are talking rubbish.
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SocaWho wrote:
Dan_The_Red wrote:
Sick of the aboriginal victim mentalility tbh. They already receive ridiculous amounts of benefits and handouts. Sure their life expectancy is lower, who'd have thought excessive drinking and smoking puts you in the ground sooner. Everyone already knows the dangers of these drugs so more government money won't increase awareness.

I'm open to changing Australia Day. It's a strange date to celebrate, obviously offensive to aboriginals and doesn't reflect our multiculturalism anyway. But all the other grievances Aboriginals have can fuck off.

As i was saying...it seems that theres no solution.
i dont know what can be done .
the only solution i can see fit is help them increase their health with the hope their life expectancy improves. ie better nutrition and not allowing them access to cigs and alchohol.
Saying sorry is one thing but ot wont make their problens go away...a bit like Bob Hawkes speech on kids in poverty

Edited by Socawho: 30/1/2016 12:27:40 PM


I realise you are trying to be sympathetic, but your phrase "not allowing them access to cigs and alcohol" is part of the problem, in that the paternalistic attitude of recent decades has not helped.

That kind of approach does not empower people to be anything other than passive and institutionalised.

What actually needs to happen is to empower the communities themselves and ask them what they think needs to be done. Some communities may ban alcohol, others may do something else. The key is to get their buy in and ownership of the fate of their communities.

Throwing around accusations of "massive benefits" (not you I know), as well as blaming their health outcomes on cigs and alcohol is just so surface level, simplistic, and actually largely inaccurate.
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More buzzword shit

"Empowering communities" - what does that even mean?

Aboriginal people are given so much shit, lower entry scores for uni, large welfare dependence etc

If they choose not to take it then so be it. Let's face it, if it wasn't for British settlement they would still be living in mud huts in their uncivilised lifestyle.

Edited by 433: 1/2/2016 04:05:34 PM
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AzzaMarch wrote:
Dan_The_Red wrote:
They already receive ridiculous amounts of benefits and handouts.


That is just not true. It is yet another piece of urban mythology that gets thrown around whenever the issue of the gap in indigenous health outcomes comes to light.

Please outline the specific "ridiculous amounts of benefits and handouts" - otherwise you are talking rubbish.

how much do you think is spent every year on aboriginal affairs?
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433 wrote:
More buzzword shit

"Empowering communities" - what does that even mean?

Aboriginal people are given so much shit, lower entry scores for uni, large welfare dependence etc

If they choose not to take it then so be it. Let's face it, if it wasn't for British settlement they would still be living in mud huts in their uncivilised lifestyle.

Edited by 433: 1/2/2016 04:05:34 PM

If the British didn't come then someone else would have. They're probably lucky that it wasn't the French or the Spanish.
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AzzaMarch wrote:
Dan_The_Red wrote:
They already receive ridiculous amounts of benefits and handouts.


That is just not true. It is yet another piece of urban mythology that gets thrown around whenever the issue of the gap in indigenous health outcomes comes to light.

Please outline the specific "ridiculous amounts of benefits and handouts" - otherwise you are talking rubbish.


Why is it then that literally on every government and educational form i have had to fill out for the past 18 years of my high school and adult life have i had to tick a box to confirm whether or not i am an "Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander"?

One of my mates was a med student and he believed in everything the Greens had said about needing to help the Aboriginals and that somehow it is the governments fault that they live in squalor. A quick work experience/ uni placement in the Northern Territory has literally turned his thinking to the complete opposite. This is evolution at work right now. All the systems are in place to help remote communities yet they do nothing with it.

I would like to see the difference in life expectancy/ success in Aboriginals living in remote areas compared to more Metropolitan cities. I'm sure there would be a significant disparity
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Eastern Glory wrote:
433 wrote:
More buzzword shit

"Empowering communities" - what does that even mean?

Aboriginal people are given so much shit, lower entry scores for uni, large welfare dependence etc

If they choose not to take it then so be it. Let's face it, if it wasn't for British settlement they would still be living in mud huts in their uncivilised lifestyle.

Edited by 433: 1/2/2016 04:05:34 PM

If the British didn't come then someone else would have. They're probably lucky that it wasn't the French or the Spanish.


Not entirely true. Look at China, Japan and South Korea. 3 of the most technologically advanced countries in the world today yet they were never properly colonised.
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Scotch&Coke wrote:
AzzaMarch wrote:
Dan_The_Red wrote:
They already receive ridiculous amounts of benefits and handouts.


That is just not true. It is yet another piece of urban mythology that gets thrown around whenever the issue of the gap in indigenous health outcomes comes to light.

Please outline the specific "ridiculous amounts of benefits and handouts" - otherwise you are talking rubbish.


Why is it then that literally on every government and educational form i have had to fill out for the past 18 years of my high school and adult life have i had to tick a box to confirm whether or not i am an "Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander"?

One of my mates was a med student and he believed in everything the Greens had said about needing to help the Aboriginals and that somehow it is the governments fault that they live in squalor. A quick work experience/ uni placement in the Northern Territory has literally turned his thinking to the complete opposite. This is evolution at work right now. All the systems are in place to help remote communities yet they do nothing with it.

I would like to see the difference in life expectancy/ success in Aboriginals living in remote areas compared to more Metropolitan cities. I'm sure there would be a significant disparity

Yep, I soent 10 days I a remote community a few years back as part of an opening of a new community centre. Incredible experience which made me develop both a huge compassion for Aboriginal people and a hatred of their 21st century culture and attitudes.
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11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Scotch&Coke wrote:
Eastern Glory wrote:
433 wrote:
More buzzword shit

"Empowering communities" - what does that even mean?

Aboriginal people are given so much shit, lower entry scores for uni, large welfare dependence etc

If they choose not to take it then so be it. Let's face it, if it wasn't for British settlement they would still be living in mud huts in their uncivilised lifestyle.

Edited by 433: 1/2/2016 04:05:34 PM

If the British didn't come then someone else would have. They're probably lucky that it wasn't the French or the Spanish.


Not entirely true. Look at China, Japan and South Korea. 3 of the most technologically advanced countries in the world today yet they were never properly colonised.
Because their indigenous population wasn't wiped out by disease or exterior forces.

The aboriginals lost, and it is our land to do with what we will. Anyone who hasn't got the guts to see it this way is blinded by white guilt.


I'm not contesting that fact. I'm just saying that the presumption that a native culture would "still be living in huts" is completely ludicrous.
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11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Scotch&Coke wrote:
Eastern Glory wrote:
433 wrote:
More buzzword shit

"Empowering communities" - what does that even mean?

Aboriginal people are given so much shit, lower entry scores for uni, large welfare dependence etc

If they choose not to take it then so be it. Let's face it, if it wasn't for British settlement they would still be living in mud huts in their uncivilised lifestyle.

Edited by 433: 1/2/2016 04:05:34 PM

If the British didn't come then someone else would have. They're probably lucky that it wasn't the French or the Spanish.


Not entirely true. Look at China, Japan and South Korea. 3 of the most technologically advanced countries in the world today yet they were never properly colonised.
Because their indigenous population wasn't wiped out by disease or exterior forces.

The aboriginals lost, and it is our land to do with what we will. Anyone who hasn't got the guts to see it this way is blinded by white guilt.


This provocative, conflicting response reads like a Draupnir n friends play.

I can sympathize with the Aboriginal because they have been supplanted from their lands, their culture, way of life and religion destroyed. A demoralized people.

Its a similar sympathy I will feel for the Anglo and Europeans as they embrace the same fate in their homelands.
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11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Scotch&Coke wrote:
Eastern Glory wrote:
433 wrote:
More buzzword shit

"Empowering communities" - what does that even mean?

Aboriginal people are given so much shit, lower entry scores for uni, large welfare dependence etc

If they choose not to take it then so be it. Let's face it, if it wasn't for British settlement they would still be living in mud huts in their uncivilised lifestyle.

Edited by 433: 1/2/2016 04:05:34 PM

If the British didn't come then someone else would have. They're probably lucky that it wasn't the French or the Spanish.


Not entirely true. Look at China, Japan and South Korea. 3 of the most technologically advanced countries in the world today yet they were never properly colonised.
Because their indigenous population wasn't wiped out by disease or exterior forces.

The aboriginals lost, and it is our land to do with what we will. Anyone who hasn't got the guts to see it this way is blinded by white guilt.


This is hilarious. True though, don't see anyone complaining about the present day Anglo-Saxons who took over the picts and celts.
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Scotch&Coke wrote:
11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Scotch&Coke wrote:
Eastern Glory wrote:
433 wrote:
More buzzword shit

"Empowering communities" - what does that even mean?

Aboriginal people are given so much shit, lower entry scores for uni, large welfare dependence etc

If they choose not to take it then so be it. Let's face it, if it wasn't for British settlement they would still be living in mud huts in their uncivilised lifestyle.

Edited by 433: 1/2/2016 04:05:34 PM

If the British didn't come then someone else would have. They're probably lucky that it wasn't the French or the Spanish.


Not entirely true. Look at China, Japan and South Korea. 3 of the most technologically advanced countries in the world today yet they were never properly colonised.
Because their indigenous population wasn't wiped out by disease or exterior forces.

The aboriginals lost, and it is our land to do with what we will. Anyone who hasn't got the guts to see it this way is blinded by white guilt.


I'm not contesting that fact. I'm just saying that the presumption that a native culture would "still be living in huts" is completely ludicrous.


Not really

40k years had amounted to nothing, I doubt an extra 200 would do anything more.
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Excellent listening to Stan Grant on Q&A right now.
Great perspective on the indigenous views & feelings
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11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Scotch&Coke wrote:
Eastern Glory wrote:
433 wrote:
More buzzword shit

"Empowering communities" - what does that even mean?

Aboriginal people are given so much shit, lower entry scores for uni, large welfare dependence etc

If they choose not to take it then so be it. Let's face it, if it wasn't for British settlement they would still be living in mud huts in their uncivilised lifestyle.

Edited by 433: 1/2/2016 04:05:34 PM

If the British didn't come then someone else would have. They're probably lucky that it wasn't the French or the Spanish.


Not entirely true. Look at China, Japan and South Korea. 3 of the most technologically advanced countries in the world today yet they were never properly colonised.
Because their indigenous population wasn't wiped out by disease or exterior forces.

The aboriginals lost, and it is our land to do with what we will. Anyone who hasn't got the guts to see it this way is blinded by white guilt.


It really isn't as simple as you're making it out to be. Tasmania's entire Aboriginal population was wiped out, if that happened to any ethnic/cultural group today it would be called genocide.

So tell me, did the Jews just "lose" the Holocaust?
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11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Scotch&Coke wrote:
Eastern Glory wrote:
433 wrote:
More buzzword shit

"Empowering communities" - what does that even mean?

Aboriginal people are given so much shit, lower entry scores for uni, large welfare dependence etc

If they choose not to take it then so be it. Let's face it, if it wasn't for British settlement they would still be living in mud huts in their uncivilised lifestyle.

Edited by 433: 1/2/2016 04:05:34 PM

If the British didn't come then someone else would have. They're probably lucky that it wasn't the French or the Spanish.


Not entirely true. Look at China, Japan and South Korea. 3 of the most technologically advanced countries in the world today yet they were never properly colonised.
Because their indigenous population wasn't wiped out by disease or exterior forces.

The aboriginals lost, and it is our land to do with what we will. Anyone who hasn't got the guts to see it this way is blinded by white guilt.

CHRIST :lol:

That's a little tough, but they would have been 'invaded' one way or another.
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Murdoch Rags Ltd wrote:
Excellent listening to Stan Grant on Q&A right now.
Great perspective on the indigenous views & feelings


I've lost all respect for him and his victim card lately.
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Geezus - this thread has really gone to loony town.

I love the "they would still be living in mud huts" argument - you make it sound like the british came here to give them access to technology. They were specifically excluded and denied from accessing british technology, and actively hunted down and murdered for generations.
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...and there is quite the whiff of cultural superiority claims when that argument comes round too.

For those actually interested in genuinely asking the question as to why European and some Asian cultures became technologically advanced, when others (eg in the Americas & Australia) didn't, the answer is quite straightforward, and has nothing to do with "superior culture" or "superior intelligence".

For the detailed version, read Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel". For the cut down version, here goes:

To make the technological leap out of the stone age, you need crops that are viable to be farmed, and you need animals that are able to be domesticated, both as a source of meat, and as beasts of burden.

When your society has those pre-conditions, you are able to increase your population, move from a rural to an city based system, and produce enough surplus goods to trade at a high level, which then increases networks, which then helps spread knowledge and increase technology.

Australia had no suitable animals for widescale domestication. Whilst the Americas had only Llamas - not very suitable. They did have corn.

This plays out in what we see - some development beyond hunter gatherer lifestyle in the Americas (Mayans, Aztecs), but not at a huge scale, no such development in Australia, and the most advanced technological societies evolving in Europe, the middle east, and the Asian steppe.

In conclusion - technological sophistication is an accident of evolution, based on specific pre-conditions. NOT the superiority or otherwise of individual cultures.

Edited by AzzaMarch: 2/2/2016 10:24:48 AM
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AzzaMarch wrote:
...and there is quite the whiff of cultural superiority claims when that argument comes round too.


you forgot to use the words white privilege ;)
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433 wrote:
Scotch&Coke wrote:
11.mvfc.11 wrote:
Scotch&Coke wrote:
Eastern Glory wrote:
433 wrote:
More buzzword shit

"Empowering communities" - what does that even mean?

Aboriginal people are given so much shit, lower entry scores for uni, large welfare dependence etc

If they choose not to take it then so be it. Let's face it, if it wasn't for British settlement they would still be living in mud huts in their uncivilised lifestyle.

Edited by 433: 1/2/2016 04:05:34 PM

If the British didn't come then someone else would have. They're probably lucky that it wasn't the French or the Spanish.


Not entirely true. Look at China, Japan and South Korea. 3 of the most technologically advanced countries in the world today yet they were never properly colonised.
Because their indigenous population wasn't wiped out by disease or exterior forces.

The aboriginals lost, and it is our land to do with what we will. Anyone who hasn't got the guts to see it this way is blinded by white guilt.


I'm not contesting that fact. I'm just saying that the presumption that a native culture would "still be living in huts" is completely ludicrous.


Not really

40k years had amounted to nothing, I doubt an extra 200 would do anything more.


It made all the difference for the Europeans. Almost all of the base advancements in Europe such as Gunpowder, paper, the compass, monetary systems, basic maths etc came from contact (typically non-violent trade etc) from other cultures. Who is to say if we made peaceful contact with them, like the Japanese initially, they would not have latched on and advanced rapidly. The presumption that without invasion and genocide a culture can not and will not advance doesn't even make the most basic foundation for a sound argument.

This doesn't, of course, explain why remote aboriginals have still yet to catch up with the rest of us. It is becoming more and more obvious that it is a personal choice. When you have to stop selling petrol and ban alcohol and ciggies you know there are some deep problems in remote communities that they themselves need to sort out. They can't just keep saying "But muh genocide from 200 years ago" "you should give us money and houses for free" when we had nothing to do with it and have done everything possible to help them yet they throw it back in our faces.

Edited by scotch&coke: 2/2/2016 11:15:59 AM
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BETHFC wrote:
AzzaMarch wrote:
...and there is quite the whiff of cultural superiority claims when that argument comes round too.


you forgot to use the words white privilege ;)


hahaha! See - I'll never qualify as a professor in a Humanities Dept!
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AzzaMarch wrote:
BETHFC wrote:
AzzaMarch wrote:
...and there is quite the whiff of cultural superiority claims when that argument comes round too.


you forgot to use the words white privilege ;)


hahaha! See - I'll never qualify as a professor in a Humanities Dept!


The difference between a centrist and a leftard are the magical phrases of 'racism', 'privilege' and 'hetero-sexual white male'. They're also known as debate killers. You can't talk sense with people who want to turn every debate into one about social status, race and sexual orientation ;)

In saying that, if you're a transgender-hindu/muslim-female with a dark complexion, getting a job in Australia is going to be difficult for you :-k
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Aboriginals need to check their privilege. The new arrivals brought cultural enrichment, sure, at the expense of their own but sacrifices have to be made for progress. The Aboriginal needed this influx of migrants to boost their economy even though the majority of them will never see any of its benefits and be forced to work harder for less. Yes the new arrivals have a complete disrespect of everything they value but the Aboriginal has never had it better, Just look at all the different restaurants they can now eat at. Their numbers dwindling heading towards extinction? Surely not, race is a social construct and they are now constructing differently. Their once freedom to self determination in their own lands as a homogenous group was well worth losing in favour of the wonders of diversity. Only a xenophobic, racist, bigot Aboriginal could possibly disagree.




[size=2]I'm being sarcastic[/size]
aussie scott21
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What should Queensland and Victoria be called after we eradicate anything British related?
mcjules
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scott21 wrote:
What should Queensland and Victoria be called after we eradicate anything British related?

:lol:


Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

SocaWho
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BETHFC wrote:
AzzaMarch wrote:
...and there is quite the whiff of cultural superiority claims when that argument comes round too.


you forgot to use the words white privilege ;)

the only solution i see fit in their eyes is if anyone who
is isnt aboriginal jump on a boat and go back to the old country, whilst handing back the keys to them.
ive raised this argument before and beind branded an idiot by the same people with no clear cut solution

Edited by Socawho: 3/2/2016 08:27:34 AM
Lastbroadcast
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Not sure if this was posted already, but just in case:

Out of 53 countries still in the British commonwealth, Australia is the last country left that still holds its national day on the anniversary of the date white people invaded, killed and stole land. Yep, just us, on our own.

https://newmatilda.com/2016/01/28/january-26-australia-all-alone-with-a-national-day-that-celebrates-dispossession/


Another thing to point out - Before the 1930s in New Zealand, they also held their national day on the anniversary of European invasion (Jan 29th). But from the 1940s, Waitangi Day became more popular, in recognition of the treaty between Europeans and Maori that basically formed the country of NZ. . By the 1970s, it had formally become NZ's national day.

I post this to demonstrate that it's actually not that unusual for a country to change the date of its national day.

I'm not Aboriginal, but to me the 26th is not an anniversary to be proud of. I actually find it strange - because it wasn't even the beginning of a unified, independent, democratic Australia - that stuff came much later and on different dates. Federation, for example, was proclaimed on the 1st of January 1901.

On the 26th we don't actually commemorate any of the things that actually make our country great.


Edited by lastbroadcast: 3/2/2016 11:08:36 PM
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Lastbroadcast wrote:
Not sure if this was posted already, but just in case:

Out of 53 countries still in the British commonwealth, Australia is the last country left that still holds its national day on the anniversary of the date white people invaded, killed and stole land. Yep, just us, on our own.

https://newmatilda.com/2016/01/28/january-26-australia-all-alone-with-a-national-day-that-celebrates-dispossession/


Another thing to point out - Before the 1930s in New Zealand, they also held their national day on the anniversary of European invasion (Jan 29th). But from the 1940s, Waitangi Day became more popular, in recognition of the treaty between Europeans and Maori that basically formed the country of NZ. . By the 1970s, it had formally become NZ's national day.

I post this to demonstrate that it's actually not that unusual for a country to change the date of its national day.

I'm not Aboriginal, but to me the 26th is not an anniversary to be proud of. I actually find it strange - because it wasn't even the beginning of a unified, independent, democratic Australia - that stuff came much later and on different dates. Federation, for example, was proclaimed on the 1st of January 1901.

On the 26th we don't actually commemorate any of the things that actually make our country great.


Edited by lastbroadcast: 3/2/2016 11:08:36 PM

Agree with you mate but brace yourself for people accusing you of hating the British.

Insert Gertjan Verbeek gifs here

GDeathe
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Lastbroadcast wrote:

On the 26th we don't actually commemorate any of the things that actually make our country great.


Edited by lastbroadcast: 3/2/2016 11:08:36 PM
BULLSHIT We're commemorating the foundation of NSW the biggest and greatest state in the country

Edited by GDeathe: 3/2/2016 11:40:15 PM

Edited by GDeathe: 3/2/2016 11:42:05 PM
JP
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GDeathe wrote:
Lastbroadcast wrote:

On the 26th we don't actually commemorate any of the things that actually make our country great.


Edited by lastbroadcast: 3/2/2016 11:08:36 PM
BULLSHIT We're commemorating the foundation of NSW the greatest state in the country

Edited by GDeathe: 3/2/2016 11:40:15 PM


The Cove singing "Happy Birthday Sydney" is always a highlight of the Australia Day match.
sydneyfc1987
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Unshackled wrote:
Aboriginals need to check their privilege. The new arrivals brought cultural enrichment, sure, at the expense of their own but sacrifices have to be made for progress. The Aboriginal needed this influx of migrants to boost their economy even though the majority of them will never see any of its benefits and be forced to work harder for less. Yes the new arrivals have a complete disrespect of everything they value but the Aboriginal has never had it better, Just look at all the different restaurants they can now eat at. Their numbers dwindling heading towards extinction? Surely not, race is a social construct and they are now constructing differently. Their once freedom to self determination in their own lands as a homogenous group was well worth losing in favour of the wonders of diversity. Only a xenophobic, racist, bigot Aboriginal could possibly disagree.




[size=2]I'm being sarcastic[/size]


Whats you're solution to the current issues faced by the indigenous community, other than going back in time and thwarting australian colonisation

Edited by sydneyfc1987: 4/2/2016 01:03:38 AM

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