OH FFS Adam Goodes was get booed because he is a cunt on the opposing side not for doing an Aboriginal dance

Fair article. We should move the day from the 26th to be more sensitive to indigenous people. The minister for aboriginal affairs should most definitely be aboriginal. It's pathetic that it is not.

I disagree on the Adam Goodes front. While a lot of it surely must have been racism, he was booed initially not for being aboriginal. I think he'd have been booed by the Carlton fans if he ran at them and did any sort of action. No one booed Jetta for his war dance.

Invasion is a divisive word. No progress will be made when we're considered imperialists or invaders. We cannot continue to be called invaders if we want to get anywhere with the indigenous people. Furthermore, it seems to be a growing trend for people to write articles making white Australians feel ashamed of celebrating. I resent that sentiment. We were born 200 years after colonisation. Why should we be punished for the sins of those long dead?

This yeas seems to have really amped up the amount of articles like this, at least this one is balanced.

-PB

i respect indigenous culture and deplore the wrongs commited on them....i just get the feeling that the only way they feel they will get closure is if the government gave back every piece of land to them and everyone who is not aboriginal jump on a ship and go back to their ethnic origin country.
i cant see what other solution they deem viable because every that has been done to fix things from saying sorry to giving them handouts hasnt seem to have worked

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 09:33:05 AM

Which Aboriginal leaders have ever called for that to happen?

I think he is confusing the african ameircan feelings of getting 40 acres and a mule

Look up Eddie Mabo...you obviously flunked Australian History

Its Mabo...its the constitution...its just the vibe:-"

and its conclusive...youre a flog

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 10:43:56 AM

You're rubbing their noses in it - change the date and name. Why not have it a day, by name and approximation of time if possible, that Aboriginal lore suggests people settled Australia.

Constitution? We are not america you imbecile

Again, you don't seem to know what you're talking about. Mabo never argued that non-Indigenous Australians should leave the country, and he certainly didn't want them to give back "every piece of land." He advocated for indigenous land rights and measured compensation for the dispossession. You're not just misunderstanding Mabo, you're missing the point entirely. A quick google search would tell you how wrong you are.

You're reverting to your usual MO for any discussion - rather than actually engaging with what someone's said you just repeat the same bullshit from the original post and tell them they're a flog.

youre an even bigger flog for not understanding what i meant

fuck off back to your bunghole you rookie

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 10:59:45 AM

just stating facts...youre a flog.
youre a shit troller too.

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 10:58:18 AM

So MVFCArsenal is a flog because he didn't understand a reference to an Australian movie, but you're fine - even though you completely failed to understand what Eddie Mabo was fighting for (probably a bit more significant than 'Castle' references, I reckon).

Im flog yay good news peopl i got put in my place by Socawho

You keep proving my point. All you have is personal insults.

Nothing that you posted is a "fact," it's just bullshit. At no point did Eddie Mabo ever argue that non-Indigenous Australians should pack up and leave, nor did he ever argue that all land should be returned to the traditional owners. Those are the facts, and you should read up on them before you decided to have such a strongly-held opinion on them.

Nothing wrong with celebrating oz day but those who whinge about the aboringals whinging annoy me. Let them have their say. To them it is hurtful and who are we to say other wise. Live and let live

I agree. I don't think I've ever heard such a date suggested so it may not exist (I'm aware calendars in a western sense were not a thing for aboriginals).

Personally I think we should just hurry up and become a republic and change our flag to something more inclusive. Then we can have the date that happens be our republic day. Another alternative is 3 March. The day the Australia act was enacted. It could be called "Australian independence day"

Terrible idea. The treaty of Waitangi has held NZ back for decades. This sort of argument would do the same thing to Australia.

Why should this generation suffer because of what previous ones did?

To be clear I was just offering a cursive explanation of Mabo to SocaWho, since he doesn't seem to understand the issue.

And I think you're looking at things the wrong way. We shouldn't be arguing about whether this generation should suffer for the mistakes of its forefathers - instead we should be discussing how to compensate an obviously underprivileged group in our society for the past oppression that has left them so disadvantaged. Because the latter is what this is really about - today's Indigenous Australians are massively disadvantaged because of two centuries of oppression, and if we want to correct for that disadvantage, we need to right those mistakes as best we can.

We can't just 'wipe the slate clean' and forget past mistakes, because today's Indigenous Australians are still suffering from those mistakes.

And hey, at least SocaWho's shut up. Perhaps he discovered the Wikipedia page on Mabo?

youre a flog.
mate all you do is follow my posts up with a retort for the sake of trollling me.
theres no point in having a solid convo with you...since all you do is try to get on my wrong side.
so run along and flog on

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 11:51:47 AM

Vae Victus bitches

You made an obviously uninformed post about Mabo, I corrected you on it, and then instead of admitting that you were wrong or trying to defend your view, you just resorted to calling me a flog - which is what you do when pretty much anyone disagrees with you.

Perhaps it should be obvious to me that you're not worth the time. The problem is that like lots of ignorant people, you're also entirely confident in the truth of the bullshit you spout. Whether you're discussing Sydney FC's need for a striker or Eddie Mabo, you state your opinion with absolute certainty, even when it's obvious to any neutral observer that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

So please do go ahead and explain why you're right about Mabo. If you have a genuine viewpoint I'd be very interested to hear it. But unfortunately, your response to this will probably involve personal attacks rather than substance.

I think people need to be reminded that the prime minister of this country, elected by the people, apologised to the indigenous population for past injustices almost 8 years ago. Yep, its been almost 8 years.

There will never be a moment in our history that acknowledges wrongs of the past as strong as this one. The fact that this victim mentality and projection of white guilt is still perpetuated in this nation with even more fervour tells me that even if Australia day was changed, even if the Aboriginal flag was adopted as the national flag, even if Australia day was changed to invasion day and was made as a day of mourning for the nation, people will not be satisfied.

The aboriginal people will never be free, until successful aboriginal people like Stan Grant, remind his people that the reason he is where he is at the moment, is because he put his head down, worked hard, got an education and started at the bottom and didn't act like a victim.

The reality is that if you want to be successful in the western world, The Brookings institute showed that you have to do three things:

1) stay in school and get an education
2) don't have children before you get married. ie, don't become a single parent.
3) Get a job, any job and start at the bottom and work your way up.

There is a mentality out there that past injustices perpetuate current failure. They do not. This is a myth.

Let's look at some examples:

Jewish people have suffered an enormous level of persecution, resulting in almost their entire extermination as recently as just 70 years ago. This is a far greater injustice than the Aborigines suffered and it was more recent. Despite this, Jewish people are extremely successful. The assumption is that there is some zionist conspiracy. The reality is that CULTURALLY, jewish people teach their children as a bare minimum, that they must get an education. A good education. The stereotype is that you are not really Jewish until you get into law school or medicine. This is drummed into them by their families and culture from a young age. So in just a few years, Jewish people rose from people exterminated like vermin, to dominating the world. Mostly because the US is a meritocracy that rewards hard work and education.

Lets look at another example. 30 or 40 years ago, Asian and SE Asian populations came to Australia with virtually nothing, from poverty and persecution and suffered racism.

Despite this, you could argue that Asian people are perhaps the most successful demographic in Australia. They dominate the halls of academia. They dominate school test scores. Universities are overwhelmingly dominated by Asians. The reason is again CULTURAL. Asian families instill into their children that if they want to be successful they need to work hard, get a good education at a bare minimum and be disciplined. We all know the "tiger mum" stereotype and thats cos it works.

The reason why Aboriginal people do poorly is cultural. It is instilled into them by their families that they are entitled to things, that white people are out to get them and are responsible for their failure and that there is no point in trying. This is perpetuated by every man and his dog writing articles that constantly link past injustices to current failure instead of cultural problems. This victim mentality helps no-one.

No-one in human history has ever been successful without hard work, dedication and discipline. Even children born into extreme wealth, will eventually fail if a strong mentality is not forced into them from a young age. Privileged, spoilt children eventually fail.

I know people on here may have difficulty believing this but its true. Capitalism is colour blind. It cares only about the colour green. Make yourself valuable by getting an education and working hard. Instill into your children that no-one is going to help them unless they help themselves. Don't be a victim or you will fail spectacularly.

Obviously, children who grow up with parents who are useless drug addicts are not going to have this mentality drilled into them because their parents are hopeless, but rewarding this with a victim mentality solves no deep cultural problem, thats why successful Aboriginals in society need to be good role models by showing their people they became successful through hard work, and that it is possible for Aborigines, like it is for everyone, to be succesful if good values are drummed into them.

Posts like this one ^ are why its still an issue.

I don't know what they do in school now but certainly we didn't do nearly enough Australian history. Way too much focus on European history.

I understand the sentiment from an aboriginals perspective from the things that happened back then are now morally wrong. However does anyone ever think that alot of the people who were sent here... didn't want to be here. They too were taken from their families as well. Again, that was something that in today is morally wrong, being sent thousands of kilometers away because you illegally tried to feed your childre/wife/self.
There's alot of bad shit under the bridge the vast majority are trying to bring this together but unless they are all doing it for the potential positives and not for the historical negatives... it won't work.

I think this is the most unintentionally hilarious post in a very long time.

Typical right wing mentality.
Firstly, define success in monetary & career terms
Secondly, demonise the disadvantaged, so as to sear one's conscience from having to vet the cornucopia of issues that leads to someone being disadvantaged - to the right winger 'apparent' complex problems have simple causes & hence simple solutions.

I know, what a ridiculous post. The state/federal policies resulting in the 'stolen generation' was still going on 25yrs after WW2.

Aboriginal people were massacred by white people in Australia's early history. FACT. Horrible injustices have been perpetuated upon Aboriginals in the past. FACT.

They were not allowed to vote until 1967. FACT.

But my post is still right.

The problems are cultural. Acknowledgement of past injustices is important, but crucially it does not change the culture, despite our best intentions.

By the way, I'm part Aboriginal. I have seen this mentality within my extended family.

Let me ask you this. Is Australia a more or less racist country than in the past? Of course it is less racist. There is less discrimination.

Then why do these problems still exist? In fact, they are arguably worse. Certainly not better.

Why?

Typical Left wing mentality...
hope to fuck you have a good government that is generous to give you enough money for you to live off centrelink for a fortnight.
build cycle paths thinking roads were made for cyclists in the first place



Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 02:01:41 PM

Edited by Socawho: 26/1/2016 02:02:20 PM

And this one is knocked right out of the park...!

everyone at each others throats is what Australia Day means to me :)
thats how we celebrate our diversity :)

Aboriginals need Moar money, They already get 30+ billion a year to spend on cheap housing and grog

I disagree.

We need to maintain Australia Day as the black armband activist day that it is as a constant reminder to those with ill gotten white privilege.

Its our day of mourning.

daTs An oUtrage It Is

My main problem is that it's such a large and complex issue that has been essentially distilled down to "aboriginals have a lazy culture and don't work hard enough". Though he posted it in his usual condescending and "baiting" way, Murdoch rags is spot on.

The very successful Stan Grant seems to think racism is just as prevalent as ever in Australia...
[youtube]uEOssW1rw0I[/youtube]

On the original topic, even if Aboriginals were more "successful" by the standards you set out, would having Australia Day on the 26th January still be a good idea?

I don't understand what life expectancy has much to do with the issue. All Australians had low life expectancies, the ABS' earliest records of life expectancy has males at 47 between 1881-1890. You think that they wouldn't develop as they see fit in an increasingly global world?

Obviously, as I expected, my post has created some consternation. So lets explore some more.

I'm sure people here would agree that Jewish people have suffered discrimination in just about every place they have lived for much of the last few thousand years.
They've been hated by the Christians, and are still hated by fundamentalists. Muslims detest Jews. There are 1.5 billion muslims and just 14 million Jews. They were nearly exterminated from the planet as recently as 70 years ago.

Ok, so we can all acknowledge, that like Aborigines, Jews have suffered extensive injustices and that those injustices have been fairly recent.

However, we can all agree, that Jews are tremendously successful. Why?

Is it because people have acknowledged injustices of the past, or is it because its built into their culture? You know plenty of people still hate jews.

What lessons can be learned about other discriminated but successful cultures like Jews and Asians who came to the western world that can be applied to the disadvantage faced by Aborigines?

One school of thought might be to say that to fix the problem we need to acknowledge injustices of the past and apologise for them. Provide a greater slice of welfare than what other people get. Give them free health care and free medications rather than just subsidised ones. All of these have great intentions. They are initiated by government and industry with the greatest of intentions to help people. But do they really help?

Or do we need to change the culture? How do we change the culture for the better? Is it going to change for the better by perpetuating a culture upon young Aboriginal people that they can't be successful because of injustices committed upon their relatives in the past? That the system is against them?

Or do we instill into them that they too can be successful if they stay in school and work hard. Rather than blaming society.

The reason why I'm saying this is that it is often Non-aboriginal people who perpetuate the idea that the system is against Aborigines or any marginalised group and I think this does more harm than good.

One of the ways this culture of failure can be broken, I believe, is for successful Aboriginal people to come out and say that they got to where they are by valuing education and hard work. I think they can be great role models in that regard.

WHY DON'T YOU GO PAY 4 POUNDS TO SUCK OFF THE REMAINS FUCKED UP GOD KARL MARX

Wow. This is the intolerant mindset we're dealing with here. ^

Edited by trident: 26/1/2016 04:43:30 PM

The fact that some are too blinded by their "left/right" mentality to notice an obvious parody of a left leaning person is about the only thing I appreciate about this lame account of yours ricey.

Very good turn out at the march this year. Some heartbreaking stories.

The stigma that indigenous people are lazy has got to stop...i agree it is embedded in the white mans thinking which does not help.
It seems there is no plausible solution until the domestic problems they have are fixed.

On that note its nice to see the Australian of the Year also addressing the gender pay gap, domestic violence and the institutionalised culture that has unfairly empowered white anglo saxon men.

No i'm looking at it in a dollars and cents way. We already had an intervention that failed spectacularly.

I think it's unreasonable to expect our generation to pick up the bill for issues that started long before we were born.

Once you start talking compensation you never hear the end. Claims will come in for decades. We will spend billions and likely achieve nothing for average indigenous. It's a noble idea you have but an unreasonable one.

This. It was the English who did everything up until 1901.

Probably should be the date we became a Federation, actually became a nation, but that's already a public holiday and we'd have smashed through our allocation of fireworks the night before.

Make it Jan 27... does it change anything?

It could be possible that NOT having it on the anniversary of the beginning of systematic genocide would do wonders for acceptance of the day within Australian Society.

I understand the sentiment but in reality life is like this. You can't take advantage of the benefits afforded to you by previous generations without taking on the bad things too.

If you're parents have a home loan and other debts (apart from HECS) when they pass away, that debt gets transferred to you. If the previous generation polluted the waterways meaning there is a shortage of potable water, you have to deal with it and find a solution.

The reality is it barely affects your day to day life and I struggle to understand why it's such an imposition to say "previous generations did horrible things to you and have put you in a shitty situation. We'll do our best to help you". Whether the way we're currently helping is the best way or not is another matter of course.

Do what mcjules said - change it to the date we become a Republic.

Some people keep trying to make the point that "we can't be held responsible for what happened in the past". I don't know whether people understand that the effects of indigenous people being placed on reserves, the abduction of children as part of the Stolen Generation actions, etc have ongoing effects today.

The stolen generation policies only ceased in the 1970s, so its hardly in the past. Putting people on reserves has created the issues some have referred to as "indigenous cultural problems". The "welfare mentality" was created by the govts of the time, quite consciously and intended. Indigenous people were forced to live on reserves, prevented from getting education, and forced to either not work, or engage in only menial labour.

I don't think people understand that the stated clear purpose of govt policies up to the 1960s was actually to wipe indigenous Australians out as a race through "diluting" their race via interbreeding some, and isolating the rest to presumably 'die out'.

There is an infamous govt newsreel from the 1950s depicting this - they used a bathtub full of water, and an eyedropper with black ink, and dripped the black ink in to the bathtub water and showed it diluting.

So the devastation of indigenous communities didn't finish in the 1800s, it was right up until the 1970s by law. And in practice it continues even until today in many areas.

I don't know about other people, but I still hear appallingly racist things said about indigenous Australians by people who wouldn't regard themselves as racist, and who would not be openly racist against other ethnicities.

Racism against indigenous people is still widely accepted, and stereotypes and prejudices still rife. Pretending otherwise is just a joke.

They've got every right to be aggrieved by Jan 26. The problem is that we never had a war of independence like the USA, so we never had an overthrow of the colonial power. So we have to keep this mythology going that there were no frontier wars, that blacks somehow "get lots of free things from the govt" etc etc.

I mean we still have the union jack on our flag! We are still a colony in our mindset.

Aboriginal life expectancy Males: 69.1
non-Aboriginal life expectancy Males: 79.7
Aboriginal life expectancy Females: 73.7
non-Aboriginal life expectancy Females: 83.1

That actually is an outrage.

Sad but true. I'm pleased that the republican movement is starting to get some traction again. Just need to convince the apathetic about it's importance. Hear too many times "we have other priorities", like we can walk and chew gum at the same time.

The good thing about that idea is that we can rig the date so the holiday is at the best time to suit us :) I actually like an late jan/early feb holiday, just not on the 26th for the reasons mentioned many times on this thread!

i have mixed feelings about a republic...its good that it hopefully opens a new chapter for indignous recognition and turning over a new leaf...but bad from a law perspective. By that i mean every facet of law would be rejigged to affect day to day livng...i mean where do you stand as a citizen ? , what are your rights?
the cost to the taxpayer would be massive. ...the laws will be rejigged by people who have an agenda for themselves that might not benefit everyone and only their constiuents.
I mean i get sick of Ray Martin telling me whats good for me...and whats not.
Eventually Australia will be a republic no question...but it seems people like Ray Martin want to jump head first without a gradual transition...people like Ray Martin actually turn off people who are undecided

Edited by Socawho: 27/1/2016 12:03:20 PM

Probably one for the republic thread but most of the things you have concern for were solved in 1986 without any involvement from us.

You worry too much about conspiracy theories. Ray Martin wont be president :)

Yes, it seems BETHFC is having trouble coming to grips with his white anglo-saxon privilege

Speaking solely from my (is shallow the right word?) shallow perspective on it all, my thinking is..
- Good to have it in the summer
- Should be during school holidays so doesn't disrupt school kids and people who have taken time off work already
- Shouldn't be a week either side of Jan 26

So I say we should have it on Jan 16th - that way next year we all get another long weekend! :lol:

#firstworldwhiteprivilegeproblems

as you say comrade

Of course it's shallow but really the date could be any day of the year, may as well do it at a nice time of year so it's an easy day to hold celebrations. Would suck if it was July/August!

you would have as us all live like North Koreans and Venezualans under Commie rule instead lol

I find the hypocritical conundrum interesting when the most important thing is the timing of when these white Australians can have another day off and at the same time make an issue about the original owners of this land being 'lazy'.

lol so lame.

-PB

Food for thought:

Some of those people who don't like indigenous "whingeing" about Jan 26 say that aborigines should "move on" from "what happened 50+ years ago".

Why can't we, as the rest of society, "move on" from celebrating our national day on Jan 26 to a day that is more inclusive?

50 years ago is a lot closer in time than almost 230 years ago? Why are we so attached to that date?

I think the date should be preserved for Invasion Day as its important we mark that time in our history as a time of reflection.

It is becoming more and more socially unacceptable to "celebrate" Australia Day and what we're seeing now among progressives and intellectual young people (who are the future of this country) is active participation in the day of mourning and the Invasion Day marches around the land.

This is a positive development. :)

Shouldnt Australia day be when the nation was founded Anyway, not when the first fleet arrived.

It was only in 1935 that all states and territories started calling it "Australia Day" and apparently only in 1994 did it begin to be a public holiday for all.

Can easily be changed.

John Howard's fault :)

I know it was before you were born so I'll excuse the fact that it's incorrect but no need to try so hard. First day of school a bit boring or you starting tomorrow?

pure :)

Make sure you study hard, otherwise you won't be successful :lol:

Successful like cutting code all day like you? :)
Pizza under the door :)

If you're lucky ;)

It must pay well considering what I can get done by paying Indian folk on freelancer :)

Paying indians to get your school assignments done? You're going to go far in the Liberal party :lol:

You must be a corporate high flyer considering you're still living in hicksville adelaide :)
A real success, cutting code and working on the help desk :)

Who said I was successful? And if I was, I certainly couldn't care enough to prove it to a high school kid on the internet :lol: Anyway if you want to "get out" of Adelaide yourself, my advice still applies.

Apologies to everyone else. Won't be derailing this thread any more :) :)

Edited by mcjules: 27/1/2016 04:17:06 PM

What a meltdown from you.
Perhaps stick to what you know, ie answering phone calls and leave the history lessons to the experts.

Trying to claim Australia Day wasnt a public holiday until 1994, is one of the stupider posts I've read on this forum.

Answering phone calls is the new fish and chip shop (sorry PB) :lol:

There's no pride in schooling someone so young so no gloating. Maybe you can impress your teachers with this little tidbit.

You obviously werent even around in 1994 or if you were you were a child. Australia Day public holiday on January 26 has been around a century. Your google knowledge of history has you miscomprehending an article that has only stated the day was previously moved around the weekend for nothing more than convenience.

this is what you said


the 26th has always been the significant date and its been the public holiday whenever its fallen on a Friday or Monday

Typical code cutter. Cant communicate nor comprehend the spoken language. :)

meet somewhere down the middle, most people wouldn't care less what day you call "Australia day" they'll still celebrate it the same way regardless, the same token people shouldn't be made to feel guilty about celebrating it if it is the 26th of Jan

I'm sorry you had to fall out of character ricey. Hope when you calm down you learn something.

I actually wasn't 100% correct. Technically in 1988 for the bicentenary, 26th Jan was a PH for everyone. 1994 was when it was "celebrated" universally.

Fish and chips are hard work m8.

-PB

You made a big mistake and now you're trying to regain ground by introducing more factoids you've googled?
Why would anyone be interested?

You'd be fascinated by how you're regarded in the 442 PM community (aka the Dark 442) :)