New hashtag, new calamity for the ever pointless state government. It's funny as he always tries to model himself as a man of the people and now he has done this.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/mike-baird-using-misleading-stats-to-back-sydneys-lockout-laws-weatherburn-20160210-gmq7bl.html

The post that caused the shit storm and some of the quite funny responses to it
https://www.facebook.com/mikebairdMP/
http://pedestrian.tv/news/arts-and-culture/casinomike-baird-copping-the-backlash-hard-accused/e9cc2459-3831-44b7-af60-39438db1e237.htm

Thoughts? Should politicians just stay away from social media?


Edited by scotch&coke: 11/2/2016 11:06:24 AM

I'm with Mike on this one 100%. At worst the figures were misleading - but nonetheless what he says is accurate. The reduction he says happened. Yes, there was already a downward trend that he doesn't mention, but the figures are still accurate. Moreover, even if you take into account the downward trend, the reduction in violence is still extremely significant and there has not been an equivalent rise in violence elsewhere. Thus, the streets are safer, crime is down, and the savings to the economy are massive - sounds like a good initiative to me.

Personally, I feel like alcohol is the Australian version of guns in America (albeit admittedly not nearly as serious). We find it ridiculous that in America they won't even put restrictions on guns because the gun lobby and gun owners don't want to relinquish their rights.

And yet in Australia, alcohol abuse, alcohol related violence and alcohol related accidents cost our country billions of dollars and does indeed cost many lives. Like with guns, it is clearly only the abuse of alcohol that is the issue rather than alcohol itself (I personally love a drink). And yet as soon as we try to put restrictions in place to curb the problem, everyone cries on about "nanny states", about how it is costing jobs, about individual freedoms. This is exactly what is said in the gun debate in America.

I feel that if people want to come down against Baird on this using the above rhetoric yet want to come down on America for guns, they're hypocrites.

Even if Baird's stats were "misleading" or not fully taking in context - the stats that the bureau guy has rebutted with are still a pretty good indicator that the measures are working IMO.

Its only working because people don't go out in the city anymore! Foot traffic is like 80% down.

Mike is an evangelical wowser as is Scipione.

If you read in detail some of what is being done, and how they are killing off all nightlife, it is totally ridiculous!

http://au.fourfourtwo.com/forums/default.aspx?g=posts&t=68116

-PB

Come on mate, play the ball not the man. It doesn't matter if he is evangelical, it is his policy that needs to be evaluated. And it seems to be working. The term wowser, like nanny-state, socialist, etc. should be included under godwin's law.

The second issue is a question of whether it is thus worth it. Is a decrease in the nightlife for some enough to cancel the good done in reduced alcohol related crime and injury. I think no way. If you have to go home a bit earlier on a Saturday or can't get as trashed, then that's a small price to pay.

The issue is that alcohol related violence has long been reducing.

And it goes way beyond just "stopping people from getting trashed".

There was the restaurant that had police turn up and try to tell them that their wine list is "encouraging problem drinking". It goes far beyond what anyone would see as reasonable. Honestly, just read up on some of the stuff that has happened - it is becoming authoritarian.

You might be happy having a city with a dead heart, but I think its wrong.

The evangelical line is appropriate because what they are doing is not evidence-based, it is punishing the "sin" of drinking.

Edited by AzzaMarch: 11/2/2016 01:25:23 PM

Having lived in Sydney and recently been back there i can tell you the place is dead. Baird says more bars are opening but that is bullshit in the main areas of the city. Walk down King street and ,if you're into it, Oxford street. There are for lease and for sale signs left right and center. Sydney is dead, Melbourne is the new place to be, with no bs lock out laws and with very little comparable crime.



His background can be greatly attributed to these laws. This state is directly turning in to a nanny state which is heavily influenced by old bats and their dying desert religion. Or it could be attributed to the Liberal parties association with the Casinos who are coincidentally unaffected by these laws

Just because you are evangelical, doesn't mean you aren't evidence based, or that this policy isn't evidence based. Indeed, it was based on the evidence of the trial at Newcastle. Seems like you are the one making assumptions here built on your existing biases.

Even if there is a slightly greater reduction in violence, it's still not worth destroying such a major industry over. New laws are destroying Brisbane as well.

The 'stats' that Baird used were not just misleading, they were out and out fudged.

Read this if you haven't already

If that isn't out and out lying to suit one's agenda, what is?

this whole thing made me cringe so hard.

I would argue that an evangelical would be much more likely to be driven by an ideological agenda, rather than an evidence based one.

And I would argue that is the case with Baird.

Emotional responses don't negate what I said.

So his claims that local bars have increased 2x have apparently come from stats compared to those of 2010. Except the 2x increase has come from a precinct 4x the size of the original sample size. How voters can cop being blatantly lied to is beyond belief

I thought it was an excellent analogy, which is why the negative response was so weak.

The worst part is that most people arguing against it have nothing to back them up and aren't addressing the actual issue, which is lives and public safety.

I'm a fence sitter on this issue. I find the new laws frustrating and they were a knee jerk reaction, but something needed to be done.
IMO, they need to change the laws and fix Sydney's public transport over weekends, so that drunk people can actually get home.

Also, I think it's as simple as stationing a cop in problem venues all night in order to properly enforce RSA. Now that's just one solution, but why don't they make lock out 3am and just crack down on RSA?

I hated Kings Cross because of all the heads there. And yes, a large majority of those heads were of certain ethnicities, which can't be denied, and generally i avoid at all costs when I'm out. The thing that pisses me off is that now all these people are out in Newtown and Surry Hills, which sucks... It's completely killed the vibe in those places.

But now I'm just ranting.

No one has the right to tell me, or you, that there's a difference between buying a bottle of wine at 21:59 and 22:01. The stats are completely ridiculous in here - I mean really, the stats show that the laws are working because violence has dropped 40%? Well, uh... Foot traffic in those same places has dropped 80%, and the stat of 40% includes an extra 6 regions than the previous report, so if anything the "per capita" rate of violence has actually increased.

The gun analogy is also completely ridiculous - alcohol isn't specifically to designed to kill people like guns are - in what world is that a realistic argument? Guns need licencing, just like cars, just like alcohol. Some guns can't be bought, but no one is stopping anyone from shooting at a range at 4am. Some cars can't be bought, but no one is stopping anyone from driving at 4am. Some alcohol can't be bought, but no one is stopping any... Wait, nevermind.

Sydney is dead now, and I say that as a muso that has played over 100 gigs in Sydney over 15 years. The music scene is dead. Entertainment scene is dying. Art scene is leaving for NYC, Europe and Melbourne.

In any case, the trial worked in Newcastle to the detriment of the nightlife there. More than 14 clubs have already gone out of business in Newcastle since they brought the laws in, and the same shit is happening in Sydney right now.

It's not about whether you like Kings Cross. It's not about whether you like Oxford St. It's not about whether you think people of certain ethnicity are causing trouble. It's about the fact that no one has the right to tell a sober, thoughtful person when and when they can't have a drink (or even eat after midnight ffs). The city has 4.5+ million people, and two blokes died before 9pm due to coward punches, yet you blokes are actually sitting there saying this shit is working?

You know, people that aren't, uh, you, actually like to go out and have a good night. If you're not going to go out and exercise your freedom to buy a bottle of wine at 22:01 or buy a beer at 03:01, then sorry, but why the fuck are you even commenting? More people die drowning every year than being one punched to death, yet I don't hear you blokes asking for beaches to be closed once the lifesavers go off duty?

Wake the fuck up to yourselves.

..and really, if you can't even realise what's going on when The Star and Packer's new casino are literally the only places near the CBD that are exempt from the lockout laws when Packer just made a $7 million donation to the NSW Liberal party and NSW Liberals president just left to take up an executive job at The Star, then I really have nothing to say to you in regards to this anyway.

So much respect lost.

The thing that really pisses me off is the fact these laws aren't enforced on the Casino.

No, I agree with you 100% that that's dodgy.

Anyway, I think Niemöller put it best when he said:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Everyone has the choice to not go out. It doesn't endow them with the ability to ruin other peoples' freedom.

This isn't about how much alcohol you drink. It's about having the personal freedom to choose to drink when you want.

Meanwhile crown is exempt. Lol if you sydney siders think this is a good move you are more retarded than i thought. Melbourne has just implemented all night trains buses and trams over the weekend. This allows more options over the weekend to get home on top of uber and taxis.

What world class cities have lock out laws what a joke. Sydney is literally australias shame.

He's fucked either way...he cant win on this issue

For real. Lockout laws have got to be one of the dumbest fucking things that could be implemented.

Saddest part is that these cunts don't even realise that their freedom is being taken away for the sole fact that they choose not to exercise their freedom. It's seriously along the lines of those dickheads that say "I don't care if gays can get married or not because I'm not a gay" or "I don't care if women can get abortions or not because I'm not a woman or married to one".

Wake up to yourselves.

Yep. Its effectively a police state. Where you can go and what you are allowed to do. You arent an adult. We will take car of you. People like EG are babied by Murdoch and his mates. This is what happens when you accept the long rod of media bullshit.

Bbc even sticking in the boot.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-35499522

And the people claiming that these laws make it safer clearly don't go out often. Not letting groups of people in because theyre 5 minutes late only has the potential to cause problems. Or even more idiotic making last drinks earlier so everyone leaves earlier at the same time, making it even more overcrowded trying to get home, is a disaster waiting to happen.

Here's an even better idea: Make sure EVERY SINGLE PLACE can't serve alcohol past the exact same point in time, so that the venues all have to close and the streets are flooded with people who've been drinking for hours, who have nothing left to do because they've just been kicked out of a venue for no reason other than the place has to close and they've got nowhere to go but home. Seriously genius reasoning there.

Reducing assault rates by killing an entire industry is not a proper solution. It's the same sort of rediculous logic that would see all roads in peak hour closed because that is when car accidents are at their highest. It's a dumb strategy that's key items has nothing to do with tackling the circumstances surrounding those publicised king hits and all to do with Baird and his army of religious fuckwits promoting their Social Agenda.

Meanwhile in Melbourne, I can leave home late and hop from bar to bar at my leisure. Following that, I'll jump straight onto tram at 3am and get home quickly. No need to even go near awful taxi ranks or hang around till morning and i've never felt safer.

Edited by melbourne_terrace: 12/2/2016 03:36:13 PM