Top all time runscorers in Test cricket

Overall figures
Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
SPD Smith (AUS)	2014-2019	52	93	13	6003	239	75.03	10361	57.93	24	22	3	675	29
KS Williamson (NZ)	2014-2019	45	78	10	4369	242*	64.25	7675	56.92	16	18	3	478	11
KK Nair (INDIA)	2016-2017	6	7	1	374	303*	62.33	506	73.91	1	0	1	41	4
AC Voges (AUS)	2015-2016	20	31	7	1485	269*	61.87	2667	55.68	5	4	2	186	5
KC Sangakkara (SL)	2014-2015	16	31	1	1843	319	61.43	3323	55.46	5	9	2	192	15
DPMD Jayawardene (SL)	2014-2014	10	18	1	1003	203*	59.00	1973	50.83	3	5	1	105	8
DAS Gunaratne (SL)	2016-2017	6	10	2	455	116	56.87	861	52.84	1	3	1	50	1
V Kohli (INDIA)	2014-2019	57	98	5	5242	243	56.36	8764	59.81	20	14	7	568	13
Younis Khan (PAK)	2014-2017	31	59	5	2836	218	52.51	5400	52.51	11	6	4	261	26
BB McCullum (NZ)	2014-2016	19	35	1	1769	302	52.02	2280	77.58	5	3	3	209	48
KJ O'Brien (IRE)	2018-2019	3	6	1	258	118	51.60	467	55.24	1	1	0	29	0
JE Root (ENG)	2014-2019	71	130	9	6088	254	50.31	10464	58.18	14	41	7	693	16

Yeah right....

flyslip

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834043

Hardcore Fan

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 192, Visits: 0

Was there a better player of pace around when Ponting was at his best?

Though if it wasn't obvious earlier, his decline seemed obvious when the Windies toured in 2010? and Kemar Roach worked him over good (somehow always seemed a very under rated bowler). It was sad to see his refusal not to go after the pull/hook, despite no longer being good enough. As well as a front pad problem that got worse. An Aussie great, that played on for a couple of years to long.

Paddles

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834050

Semi-Pro

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K, Visits: 0

flyslip - 21 Sep 2019 9:26 PM

Ponting, Kallis, Sachin and Lara had no issues with pace really. Dravid was dour. Personally, I used to love Sanga bat the most of all who got some shocking umpiring decisions regularly... YK is the one everyone forgets about. He was ungainly, but effective, and possibly the best under pressure in a 4th, even better than Lara.

Edited
6 Years Ago by Paddles

flyslip

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834053

Hardcore Fan

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 192, Visits: 0

Paddles - 21 Sep 2019 9:54 PM

flyslip - 21 Sep 2019 9:26 PM

Inviting discussion again Paddles lol?

I don't disagree, yet there was something almost majestic about Ponting to fast bowling, in the right fast bouncy (generally Aussie) conditions.

Kemar seems to have little problem with bigging himself up, more than a little truth to it though. He did retire Ponting hurt (first time in his career?). He came in at no 9 next day and got a few (awful lot of top edges though lol) to be eventually out fending an absolute beauty to short leg. Fast bowlers seemed to lose fear of him after that. Seemed almost a walking wicket at times via the pull/hook shot. It was quite a decline.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/cricket/australia/west-indies-firebrand-kemar-roach-says-started-ricky-pontings-long-spiral-towards-test-retirement/news-story/3c9c042e582d95caa287545da039d3b0?sv=15cba288f5866bc78222735dc474d1a3

Paddles

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834070

Semi-Pro

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K, Visits: 0

flyslip - 21 Sep 2019 10:29 PM

Paddles - 21 Sep 2019 9:54 PM

ply to you
Inviting discussion again Paddles lol?

I don't disagree, yet there was something almost majestic about Ponting to fast bowling, in the right fast bouncy (generally Aussie) conditions.

Kemar seems to have little problem with bigging himself up, more than a little truth to it though. He did retire Ponting hurt (first time in his career?). He came in at no 9 next day and got a few (awful lot of top edges though lol) to be eventually out fending an absolute beauty to short leg. Fast bowlers seemed to lose fear of him after that. Seemed almost a walking wicket at times via the pull/hook shot. It was quite a decline.

https://www.foxsports.com.au/cricket/australia/west-indies-firebrand-kemar-roach-says-started-ricky-pontings-long-spiral-towards-test-retirement/news-story/3c9c042e582d95caa287545da039d3b0?sv=15cba288f5866bc78222735dc474d1a3

No, not inviting convo, Kemar is still playing. Him and and Holder are both in the top 10 bowlers. And I am stilll not calling the WI attack world class yes neither.... Let alone Aus... But if I were to you directly, it was Kallis that ended Ponting's career... and you can youtube it... but you know so much already... so you should know this....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f97jPHb53XA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUFWL_wWd0w

Then and there - Ricky knew he was cooked. It's pretty much common knowledge among real cricket fans...

Edited
6 Years Ago by Paddles

flyslip

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834075

Hardcore Fan

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 192, Visits: 0

Paddles - 22 Sep 2019 12:33 AM

flyslip - 21 Sep 2019 10:29 PM

Come on Paddles, I never really claimed any of those things. Only that Kemar towelling him up made it obvious he was in decline. Fast bowlers were lining up for him after that.

I don't know how you deduced any of that, from what I said? Not calling the Windies a world class attack? Good for you but who cares and how is it relevant to anything I posted here lol?

He was "gone to Gowings" long before Kallis made him look silly. That was simply the point where he could no longer avoid what had been obvious for several years. Either that, or it was the point where the selectors had a little chat, depending what you wish to believe.

Paddles

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834106

Semi-Pro

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K, Visits: 0

flyslip - 22 Sep 2019 1:39 AM

Paddles - 22 Sep 2019 12:33 AM

flyslip - 21 Sep 2019 10:29 PM

View overall figures [change view]

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Apr 2016

Grouped by team

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 12 of 12

First

Last

Overall figures
Team	Players	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
South Africa	27	2016-2019	32	15322	199	29.80	28	558	9/129	23.53	23	374	7	6.26
India	29	2016-2019	40	21049	303*	37.58	55	709	7/48	25.48	30	407	10	12.09
Afghanistan	17	2018-2019	3	1249	102	23.56	1	49	6/49	25.97	3	20	1	-2.41
New Zealand	24	2016-2019	27	12979	264*	36.35	29	448	7/39	29.00	15	308	3	7.34
Ireland	17	2018-2019	3	1101	118	18.35	1	44	5/13	29.29	1	25	1	-10.94
Australia	36	2016-2019	37	17917	239	29.61	35	635	8/50	29.49	25	433	13	0.12
England	40	2016-2019	47	23759	254	29.04	33	766	7/42	30.28	26	488	14	-1.23
Pakistan	32	2016-2019	28	13531	302*	27.67	18	460	8/41	31.11	23	262	4	-3.44
West Indies	30	2016-2019	31	13045	202*	24.02	17	454	8/49	32.26	19	268	6	-8.23
Sri Lanka	33	2016-2019	40	19215	196	26.76	32	616	8/63	33.87	28	363	22	-7.10
Bangladesh	32	2016-2019	22	10343	219*	25.16	15	316	7/58	37.43	16	169	9	-12.27
Zimbabwe	27	2016-2018	10	4816	160	24.69	8	130	5/71	44.87	3	87	4	-20.17

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 12 of 12

First

Last

Go to page

I dont call the Windies attack world class, and just like NZ, which I dont call world class neither, they have TWO bowlers in the top 10 whereas your World class Australian attack has ONE. Clearly a problem with the stats there.

We all know (real cricket fans) when the INdian attack announced themselves, but this Aus attack when exactly did they do it again? Losing in SA? Was that when? (We all know what happened there). Losing at home to SA? Losing in UAE perhaps? Losing to SL away? Losing to India at home? When was it again? I'm confused. And biased. And antipathetic. And illogical. And every other name you called me to explain why your Aus team is 5th with the worlds best batsman....

You drew a series with no Cook, and no Anderson in England you think your bowlers are world class... Stokes doesn't even average 36 and he pummeled you all series.... and I'm bias and illogical.... Yeah okay... Maybe the Aus attack could be world class if they had Broad :).... (that's sarcasm in case you didn't realise)...

View overall figures [change view]

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Apr 2017

Grouped by team

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 12 of 12

First

Last

Overall figures
Team	Players	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
South Africa	23	2017-2019	21	9948	199	27.94	16	389	9/129	23.36	15	263	4	4.58
India	25	2017-2019	23	11915	243	34.33	32	413	6/27	23.98	15	244	5	10.35
Pakistan	25	2017-2019	16	7281	147	26.47	9	285	8/41	25.60	16	153	4	0.87
Afghanistan	17	2018-2019	3	1249	102	23.56	1	49	6/49	25.97	3	20	1	-2.41
New Zealand	17	2017-2019	13	6810	264*	39.59	17	224	7/39	26.70	10	156	2	12.89
Australia	30	2017-2019	24	11598	239	30.28	21	417	7/94	29.19	16	295	7	1.09
England	33	2017-2019	33	16079	244*	27.57	21	543	7/42	29.28	19	331	10	-1.70
Ireland	17	2018-2019	3	1101	118	18.35	1	44	5/13	29.29	1	25	1	-10.94
West Indies	26	2017-2019	24	10054	202*	23.38	14	377	8/60	29.78	14	222	3	-6.40
Sri Lanka	31	2017-2019	27	12578	196	26.25	18	405	6/32	35.51	19	248	15	-9.25
Bangladesh	31	2017-2019	15	6454	219*	23.21	10	210	7/58	35.95	12	111	8	-12.73
Zimbabwe	22	2017-2018	6	2902	160	25.23	5	84	5/71	36.34	3	53

View overall figures [change view]

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Apr 2016

Grouped by team

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 12 of 12

First

Last

Overall figures
Team	Players	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
South Africa	27	2016-2019	32	15322	199	29.80	28	558	9/129	23.53	23	374	7	6.26
India	29	2016-2019	40	21049	303*	37.58	55	709	7/48	25.48	30	407	10	12.09
Afghanistan	17	2018-2019	3	1249	102	23.56	1	49	6/49	25.97	3	20	1	-2.41
New Zealand	24	2016-2019	27	12979	264*	36.35	29	448	7/39	29.00	15	308	3	7.34
Ireland	17	2018-2019	3	1101	118	18.35	1	44	5/13	29.29	1	25	1	-10.94
Australia	36	2016-2019	37	17917	239	29.61	35	635	8/50	29.49	25	433	13	0.12
England	40	2016-2019	47	23759	254	29.04	33	766	7/42	30.28	26	488	14	-1.23
Pakistan	32	2016-2019	28	13531	302*	27.67	18	460	8/41	31.11	23	262	4	-3.44
West Indies	30	2016-2019	31	13045	202*	24.02	17	454	8/49	32.26	19	268	6	-8.23
Sri Lanka	33	2016-2019	40	19215	196	26.76	32	616	8/63	33.87	28	363	22	-7.10
Bangladesh	32	2016-2019	22	10343	219*	25.16	15	316	7/58	37.43	16	169	9	-12.27
Zimbabwe	27	2016-2018	10	4816	160	24.69	8	130	5/71	44.87	3	87	4	-20.17

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 12 of 12

First

Last

Go to page

From when exactly is this Aus attack world class? Because this is what happens to India's post Bumrah...

View overall figures [change view]

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 jan 2018

Grouped by team

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 12 of 12

First

Last

Overall figures
Team	Players	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
India	24	2018-2019	17	8154	193	29.22	18	306	6/27	23.29	13	182	3	5.93
South Africa	19	2018-2019	14	6427	152	25.20	8	254	9/129	23.58	11	183	2	1.61
Pakistan	21	2018-2019	11	4932	147	26.80	6	186	8/41	25.72	9	98	3	1.07
Afghanistan	17	2018-2019	3	1249	102	23.56	1	49	6/49	25.97	3	20	1	-2.41
West Indies	23	2018-2019	14	5528	202*	22.47	7	229	8/60	26.51	11	133	1	-4.03
New Zealand	16	2018-2019	11	5688	264*	39.22	14	186	6/30	27.55	9	130	2	11.67
England	28	2018-2019	22	10425	147	26.19	13	364	6/17	28.52	11	222	8	-2.33
Ireland	17	2018-2019	3	1101	118	18.35	1	44	5/13	29.29	1	25	1	-10.94
Australia	25	2018-2019	18	8437	211	28.21	13	310	6/23	29.94	11	223	3	-1.73
Sri Lanka	26	2018-2019	18	8030	196	25.57	11	278	6/32	31.83	12	173	7	-6.26
Zimbabwe	12	2018-2018	2	966	110	25.42	2	32	5/71	31.87	1	23	0	-6.45
Bangladesh	27	2018-2019	11	4863	219*	24.56	10	167	7/58	32.07	10	89	6	-7.51

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 12 of 12

First

Last

Go to page

So I really don't get it....

Edited
6 Years Ago by Paddles

Decentric

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834162

Legend

Group: Awaiting Activation
Posts: 22K, Visits: 0

flyslip - 21 Sep 2019 10:29 PM

Paddles - 21 Sep 2019 9:54 PM

It is an interesting article where Roach claimed Pointing's aura disappeared after that blow.

There seems to be some validity to Roach's claim. Ponting had a Test average of 55 before it occurred. He averaged 36 in the 30 Tests he played after Roach forced Ponting's first Retired Hurt.

I always thought Pointing was a scratchy starter too. Conversely, when Lara and Tendulkar walked to the wicket against Australia, they usually seemed difficult to dismiss from the time they faced the first ball when playing either at home or away.

In terms of technique there is a former Tassie vice captain and state selector who I know in the TCA members. He can identify technical faults with almost any batter one asks him about. He struggles to find anything wrong in Kane Williamson's technique though.

Baggers will meet him in about five weeks!

Edited
6 Years Ago by Decentric

Paddles

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834202

Semi-Pro

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K, Visits: 0

Decentric - 22 Sep 2019 10:03 AM

flyslip - 21 Sep 2019 10:29 PM

Nothing wrong with KW's technique but he has a statistical weakness against seam bowlers compared to Kohli and Smith. KW is actually the best at playing spin. Smith's one weakness is left arm spin.

KW is only averaging 39 against the quicks, and it really is inexplicable to me, seeing he absolutely punished Aus in Aus in 2015, he starred saving a test NZ against peak Steyn and co, he tamed Abbas in UAE, I mean he makes runs everywhere he goes typically. There is no particular mode of dismissal, he just finds ways to get out to them (though his dab shot to third man in limited overs cricket is becoming a concern). I think when Taylor retires, it would be nice for KW to be protected from the new ball at 4, and move down from 3.

Technique is not a be all and end all, though really. Sangakarra and Williamson may look purely textbook, and noone would earlier teach someone to bat like Smith, but it works. AbdV had very little foot movement compared tot he textbook, and again it worked for him. Henry Nicholls has glaring technical issues, but he has learned to put away his straight drives and not even attempt to play in the V until past 50, and even then rarely. The problem for him he still has a huge gap between bat and pad though that I have seen him bowled through far too often. That needs to be remedied. The textbook thinking was always to play in the V, but the likes of A Border (square) and Viv Richards (onside slogging) really challenged that notion. Richards would slog endlessly to the legside from outside off. Basically doing a similar strategy to Smith, but Richards would go for big boundary shots.

Latham on the other hand, is technically sound, but silly. He goes for cover drives against a new ball and nicks off to swing and nibble, and inexplicably chips the ball straight to leg side fielders. Almost every team sets a man for him there now. There's nothing wrong with the shots, he is just playing them at the wrong time. He's not an opening batsman, but that is where the vacancy in the team was, so he is stuck there for now. I'd like to see him be our test keeper when Watling retires and bat 6. Taylor looks classical on the offside, and terrible on the on side. But he looks to play straight or cut the wide ball, and saves the onside for hitting out, when it is very much his goto. You know when he is in trouble against the spinners, he immediately goes to the sweep shot.

Edited
6 Years Ago by Paddles

Decentric

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834292

Legend

Group: Awaiting Activation
Posts: 22K, Visits: 0

Paddles - 22 Sep 2019 1:51 PM

Decentric - 22 Sep 2019 10:03 AM

flyslip - 21 Sep 2019 10:29 PM

Wow!

KW finds ways to get out, like Tim Paine.

Can't believe KW only has an average against of 39 against quicks?

I watched him hammer Aussie pace bowlers around in the last Test series he was here.

Decentric

Posted 5 Years Ago

#2869775

Legend

Group: Awaiting Activation
Posts: 22K, Visits: 0

flyslip - 21 Sep 2019 9:26 PM

I once saw a post where somone showed Ponting'a average declined slowly from about the early 2000s to the end of his career.

Do others have any idea why Kallis kept his high average up late in his career?

Paddles

Posted 5 Years Ago

#2869886

Semi-Pro

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K, Visits: 0

Decentric - 9 Jan 2020 10:02 AM

flyslip - 21 Sep 2019 9:26 PM

He didn't. Kallis' last year was 2013. And it was awful. He averaged 25 and retired.

The funnier thing about Kallis is how slow his career started.His average after 22 tests wasn't even 30. By 50 tests - he was only averaging 41.

Decentric

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834291

Legend

Group: Awaiting Activation
Posts: 22K, Visits: 0

Another interesting stat is when one compares Sangkakarra, a player I've hardly seen, with Lara. Their record is similar, with Sangakarra having a bigger average, with each having played 134 and 131 innings respectively.

Yet Lara is always touted as a great.

As an Aussie supporter I have watched Lara bat a lot. He always looked really good from the moment he arrived at the wicket and didn't look like getting out, until he was dismissed. He was a real thorn in our side.

Sangkarra must be very good with that huge average from 134 Test innings.

Any expert cricket boffin opinions on this?

Paddles?

Baggers?

Grazor?

Edited
6 Years Ago by Decentric

Paddles

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834332

Semi-Pro

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K, Visits: 0

Decentric - 22 Sep 2019 11:53 PM

Sangakarra emerged twice. When Sangakarra debut'd, there was already a Lara and Tendulkar thing going on since 1994 or even before. This is the year Tendulkar started oepning in ODI, and Lara scored 375 in test and 500 in County. S Waugh then joins this group by the end of the century.

Problem for Sanga is he was a wicket keeper batting at 3. Tendulkar hid down at 4. Kumar played 48 games as wicket keeper and averaged a respectable 40. As a batsman - he played 86 games and averaged 67. This is Sanga's record as a batsman only:

Career summary
Grouping	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
v Australia	2004-2012	7	13	1	764	192	63.66	1604	47.63	1	7	0	96	1
v Bangladesh	2002-2014	10	15	2	1612	319	124.00	2646	60.92	7	5	0	178	15
v England	2007-2014	10	18	0	852	152	47.33	1764	48.29	3	4	2	106	0
v India	2008-2015	11	19	1	1032	219	57.33	1915	53.89	4	2	0	119	3
v New Zealand	2003-2015	10	18	3	821	203	54.73	1335	61.49	4	2	1	106	6
v Pakistan	2004-2015	19	37	5	2228	221	69.62	4224	52.74	7	11	2	212	10
v South Africa	2000-2014	11	21	0	1251	287	59.57	2160	57.91	3	6	2	166	4
v West Indies	2003-2010	6	9	1	442	150	55.25	855	51.69	1	4	0	51	1
v Zimbabwe	2004-2004	2	2	0	281	270	140.50	391	71.86	1	0	0	38	2

in Australia	2004-2012	4	8	1	541	192	77.28	1029	52.57	1	5	0	69	1
in Bangladesh	2008-2014	4	7	0	668	319	95.42	1153	57.93	2	3	0	72	10
in England	2011-2014	5	10	0	526	147	52.60	1099	47.86	2	3	0	64	0
in India	2009-2009	3	5	0	241	137	48.20	531	45.38	1	0	0	31	1
in New Zealand	2006-2015	4	8	2	483	203	80.50	734	65.80	3	0	0	53	5
in Pakistan	2004-2009	3	5	0	300	104	60.00	469	63.96	1	3	0	37	0
in South Africa	2000-2012	5	10	0	372	108	37.20	842	44.18	1	2	1	46	1
in Sri Lanka	2002-2015	47	80	9	4975	287	70.07	8759	56.79	17	18	6	579	18
in U.A.E.	2011-2014	6	12	1	682	211	62.00	1413	48.26	2	4	0	62	4
in West Indies	2003-2008	3	5	0	214	75	42.80	474	45.14	0	3	0	21	0
in Zimbabwe	2004-2004	2	2	0	281	270	140.50	391	71.86	1	0	0	38	2

home	2002-2015	47	80	9	4975	287	70.07	8759	56.79	17	18	6	579	18
away	2000-2015	33	60	3	3626	319	63.61	6722	53.94	12	19	1	431	20
neutral	2011-2014	6	12	1	682	211	62.00	1413	48.26	2	4	0	62	4

But Sanga's record will always be hurt with those 48 tests he was wicket keeper for. Sanga was my favourite out of the Ponting, Lara, Tendulkar et al combos. But many people struggle to give Kallis his due. So Sanga won't get his. YK gets completely omitted from the conversation too. Most of it is marketing, SL rarely visited Australia, whereas WI did a lot, and channel 9 had to talk up someone in their team. Mualia cast such a shadow over his team mates, and invited controversy, that many of the other player's feats went unnoticed for a long time.

I mean you can see it going on now with all the Indian fans and media, and wherever India tours, claiming Kohli is indisputably the second test batsman in the world currently. And its like to me - did Kane Williamson die? Cos this isn't the most difficult thing to find some dispute with.

View overall figures [change view]

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2014

Qualifications innings batted greater than or equal to 11

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Page 1 of 5

Showing 1 - 50 of 211

First

Overall figures
Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
SPD Smith (AUS)	2014-2019	52	93	13	6003	239	75.03	10361	57.93	24	22	3	675	29
KS Williamson (NZ)	2014-2019	45	78	10	4369	242*	64.25	7675	56.92	16	18	3	478	11
AC Voges (AUS)	2015-2016	20	31	7	1485	269*	61.87	2667	55.68	5	4	2	186	5
KC Sangakkara (SL)	2014-2015	16	31	1	1843	319	61.43	3323	55.46	5	9	2	192	15
DPMD Jayawardene (SL)	2014-2014	10	18	1	1003	203*	59.00	1973	50.83	3	5	1	105	8
V Kohli (INDIA)	2014-2019	57	98	5	5242	243	56.36	8764	59.81	20	14	7	568	13
Younis Khan (PAK)	2014-2017	31	59	5	2836	218	52.51	5400	52.51	11	6	4	261	26

Edited
6 Years Ago by Paddles

flyslip

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834338

Hardcore Fan

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 192, Visits: 0

Decentric - 22 Sep 2019 11:53 PM

Can't do that, can give you an opinion for what it might be worth though :).

Sangakara was exceptionally good, though many will (rightly or wrongly) claim that 20 of those matches were where he plundered runs against the Banglas (before they were very good) and Zimbabwe. Where he has 9 centuries (including 3 doubles and a triple lol) and averages 96 and 89 respectively. I'm not necessarily pushing the merits of this, as you can only play who is in front of you. Good players should do better against weaker opposition. He still averages 52.6 and has 29 hundreds without this, which is still excellent.

Lara only played them twice each, for a couple of centuries. There are also the times he put one of the best teams of all time, with a great attack, to the sword and dragged his team along with him. Amazing.

It's another reason why stats only do so much. Sangakara was a great batsman, but the only batsman that is Lara's equal in the 90's-'00s is Tendulkar IMO. They were both clearly above everyone else.

Edited
6 Years Ago by flyslip

Paddles

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834359

Semi-Pro

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K, Visits: 0

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 10:29 AM

Decentric - 22 Sep 2019 11:53 PM

Can't do that, can give you an opinion for what it might be worth though :).

Sangakara was exceptionally good, though many will (rightly or wrongly) claim that 20 of those matches were where he plundered runs against the Banglas (before they were very good) and Zimbabwe. Where he has 8 centuries and averages 96 and 89 respectively. I'm not necessarily pushing the merits of this, as you can only play who is in front of you. Good players should do better against weaker opposition.

Lara only played them twice each, for a couple of centuries. There are also the times he put one of the best teams of all time, with a great attack, to the sword and dragged his team along with him. Amazing.

It's another reason why stats only do so much. Sangakara was a great batsman, but the only batsman that is Lara's equal in the 90's-'00s is Tendulkar IMO. They were both clearly above everyone else.

For me, those 20 games still don't remotely offset Sanga's 48 tests as a wicket keeper though averaging only 40. Not to mention Sachin got 16 tests against them, and took them for 8 centuries averaging a nice lil 137 vs Bangladesg, and 77 vs Zimbabwe. Tendulkar hid at 4, Kumar batted 3. Even Lara spent most his career hiding down at 4.

I can remember a great Lara test innings. No I'm not talking the 375 and 400 vs England at home, I'm talking that chase vs Aussie with Walsh. I am unable to for Tendulkar. Really just not. I think we are destined to keep hearing about this 1.5 billion marketing great, while the likes of Sangakarra never get mentioned. And that's okay. I'd take Sanga any day over both of them.

View overall figures [change view]

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 31 Dec 2009

Wicketkeeper not as wicketkeeper

Qualifications matches played greater than or equal to 10

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Page 1 of 8

Showing 1 - 50 of 388

First

Overall figures
Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
KC Sangakkara (SL)	2000-2009	40	66	6	4432	287	73.86	14	21	0
G Gambhir (INDIA)	2004-2009	27	48	3	2553	206	56.73	8	10	1
JG Wright (NZ)	1990-1993	18	33	3	1662	185	55.40	5	7	2
RT Ponting (AUS)	1995-2009	140	236	27	11550	257	55.26	38	50	11
SR Tendulkar (INDIA)	1990-2009	158	259	28	12755	248*	55.21	43	52	14
JH Kallis (ICC/SA)	1995-2009	133	225	33	10479	189*	54.57	32	52	10
VG Kambli (INDIA)	1993-1995	17	21	1	1084	227	54.20	4	3	3
DPMD Jayawardene (SL)	1997-2009	110	182	13	9120	374	53.96	27	35	11
Mohammad Yousuf (PAK)	1998-2009	86	148	12	7336	223	53.94	24	32	10
R Dravid (ICC/INDIA)	1996-2009	137	237	27	11256	270	53.60	28	58	8
SR Waugh (AUS)	1990-2004	133	206	36	9038	200	53.16	29	37	16
DI Gower (ENG)	1990-1992	11	21	5	848	157*	53.00	3	2	1
BC Lara (ICC/WI)	1990-2006	131	232	6	11953	400*	52.88	34	48	17
V Sehwag (ICC/INDIA)	2001-2009	72	123	4	6248	319	52.50	17	19	10
MEK Hussey (AUS)	2005-2009	46	79	9	3638	182	51.97	10	19	7
GA Gooch (ENG)	1990-1995	45	83	2	4176	333	51.55	12	17	3
TT Samaraweera (SL)	2001-2009	57	90	13	3938	231	51.14	11	21	6
ML Hayden (AUS)	1994-2009	103	184	14	8625	380	50.73	30	29	14
Younis Khan (PAK)	2000-2009	63	112	7	5260	313	50.09	16	21	12
KP Pietersen (ENG)	2005-2009	56	100	4	4799	226	49.98	16	16	4
JD Ryder (NZ)	2008-2009	11	20	2	898	201	49.88	2	4	1
MJ Clarke (AUS)	2004-2009	56	91	12	3926	151	49.69	12	17	5
GC Smith (ICC/SA)	2002-2009	79	139	9	6451	277	49.62	18	26	10
Inzamam-ul-Haq (ICC/PAK)	1992-2007	120	200	22	8830	329	49.60	25	46	15
S Chanderpaul (WI)	1994-2009	123	210	32	8669	203*	48.70	21	53	13
GRJ Matthews (AUS)	1990-1993	12	19	2	818	128	48.11	1	8	1
PA Jaques (AUS)	2005-2008	11	19	0	902	150	47.47	3	6	1
RJ Shastri (INDIA)	1990-1992	11	17	0	794	206	46.70	3	1	0
AJ Stewart (ENG)	1990-1999	51	90	6	3923	190	46.70	9	22	3
DR Martyn (AUS)	1992-2006	67	109	14	4406	165	46.37	13	23	7
Saleem Malik (PAK)	1990-1999	47	77	9	3126	237	45.97	8	15	6
Saeed Anwar (PAK)	1990-2001	55	91	2	4052	188*	45.52	11	25	8
VVS Laxman (INDIA)	1996-2009	108	178	26	6917	281	45.50	14	42	12
AG Prince (SA)	2002-2009	50	81	12	3137	162*	45.46	11	8	4
MD Crowe (NZ)	1990-1995	32	55	4	2317	299	45.43	7	7	2
DC Boon (AUS)	1990-1996	62	108	13	4303	164*	45.29	13	18	11
G Kirsten (SA)	1993-2004	101	176	15	7289	275	45.27	21	34	13
JL Langer (AUS)	1993-2007	105	182	12	7696	250	45.27	23	30	11
PA de Silva (SL)	1990-2002	76	128	9	5387	267	45.26	17	19	7
AH Jones (NZ)	1990-1995	29	55	7	2171	186	45.22	6	7	1
DS Lehmann (AUS)	1998-2004	27	42	2	1798	177	44.95	5	10	2
NS Sidhu (INDIA)	1990-1999	38	56	0	2517	201	44.94	7	12	6
HP Tillakaratne (SL)	1992-2004	72	114	24	4041	204*	44.90	10	18	7
MH Richardson (NZ)	2000-2004	38	65	3	2776	145	44.77	4	19	1
DL Haynes (WI)	1990-1994	31	56	8	2147	167	44.72	6	8	3
GP Thorpe (ENG)	1993-2005	100	179	28	6744	200*	44.66	16	39	12
SM Katich (AUS)	2001-2009	47	81	5	3392	157	44.63	8	20	3
AJ Strauss (ENG)	2004-2009	69	126	5	5367	177	44.35	18	18	9
M Azharuddin (INDIA)	1990-2000	65	96	6	3991	192	44.34	15	12	3
DJ Cullinan (SA)	1993-2001	70	115	12	4554	275*	44.21	14	20	10

Edited
6 Years Ago by Paddles

flyslip

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834364

Hardcore Fan

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 192, Visits: 0

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 10:59 AM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 10:29 AM

Notice Sangakara has an average of 74 against the kiwis too Paddles, which surely qualifies him as a minnow plunderer!!! :laugh:

Edited
6 Years Ago by flyslip

Paddles

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834370

Semi-Pro

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K, Visits: 0

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 11:17 AM

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 10:59 AM

Notice Sangakara has an average of 74 against the kiwis too Paddles, which surely qualifies him as a minnow plunderer!!!

He plundered everyone, everywhere. Tbh, 4 of his tests vs NZ would be 2012 onwards, where NZ had Hesson as a coach and NZC made some significant turnarounds in leaving minnow status. NZ drew in SL in 2012 thanks to Boult and Southee's bowling, KW's and Taylor's batting, and beat them here in 2014/15 despite Sanga's double century (he really looked a class above requiring a record partnership between KW and Watling to make the game safe. NZ was 5 down for a lead of 25 when Watling walked out. It looked pretty bleak. Watling is the hidden gem in the Kiwi team people don't notice. They put on 365 runs unbroken. But conditions were doing allsorts for the first few days of that game. Sangakarra just graced his way with no support bar Chandimal.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/series/11497/scorecard/749779/new-zealand-vs-sri-lanka-2nd-test-sri-lanka-in-new-zealand-test-series-2014-15

Anyway - Sanga's record as a batsman only against everyone. It doesn't get much more impressive than this unless you look to Bradman, maybe Smith.

Career summary
Grouping	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
v Australia	2004-2012	7	13	1	764	192	63.66	1604	47.63	1	7	0	96	1
v Bangladesh	2002-2014	10	15	2	1612	319	124.00	2646	60.92	7	5	0	178	15
v England	2007-2014	10	18	0	852	152	47.33	1764	48.29	3	4	2	106	0
v India	2008-2015	11	19	1	1032	219	57.33	1915	53.89	4	2	0	119	3
v New Zealand	2003-2015	10	18	3	821	203	54.73	1335	61.49	4	2	1	106	6
v Pakistan	2004-2015	19	37	5	2228	221	69.62	4224	52.74	7	11	2	212	10
v South Africa	2000-2014	11	21	0	1251	287	59.57	2160	57.91	3	6	2	166	4
v West Indies	2003-2010	6	9	1	442	150	55.25	855	51.69	1	4	0	51	1
v Zimbabwe	2004-2004	2	2	0	281	270	140.50	391	71.86	1	0	0	38	2

in Australia	2004-2012	4	8	1	541	192	77.28	1029	52.57	1	5	0	69	1
in Bangladesh	2008-2014	4	7	0	668	319	95.42	1153	57.93	2	3	0	72	10
in England	2011-2014	5	10	0	526	147	52.60	1099	47.86	2	3	0	64	0
in India	2009-2009	3	5	0	241	137	48.20	531	45.38	1	0	0	31	1
in New Zealand	2006-2015	4	8	2	483	203	80.50	734	65.80	3	0	0	53	5
in Pakistan	2004-2009	3	5	0	300	104	60.00	469	63.96	1	3	0	37	0
in South Africa	2000-2012	5	10	0	372	108	37.20	842	44.18	1	2	1	46	1
in Sri Lanka	2002-2015	47	80	9	4975	287	70.07	8759	56.79	17	18	6	579	18
in U.A.E.	2011-2014	6	12	1	682	211	62.00	1413	48.26	2	4	0	62	4
in West Indies	2003-2008	3	5	0	214	75	42.80	474	45.14	0	3	0	21	0
in Zimbabwe	2004-2004	2	2	0	281	270	140.50	391	71.86	1	0	0	38	2

home	2002-2015	47	80	9	4975	287	70.07	8759	56.79	17	18	6	579	18
away	2000-2015	33	60	3	3626	319	63.61	6722	53.94	12	19	1	431	20
neutral	2011-2014	6	12	1	682	211	62.00	1413	48.26	2	4	0	62	4

Edited
6 Years Ago by Paddles

flyslip

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834381

Hardcore Fan

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 192, Visits: 0

No, he didn't plunder runs "everywhere" against "everyone". I find it doubtful any batsman has ever really done this (with the term "plunder runs" being entirely subjective anyway). Maybe Bradman plundered runs wherever he travelled, but he did't travel to many places.

For example he had an average of 43.9 against the Aussies which is good without being great. But an ave of 30 in SL means he certainly didn't plunder runs there and this could support the claim that Aus wickets are quite often far too batting friendly.

He averaged 39 in SL against England, and 41 in England. Ok without being great.

He averaged 35 in SA. Mediocre.

He averaged 34 in the West Indies. Mediocre.

Regardless of what you make of this, he was obviously an extremely good batsman but the phrase "he plundered runs everywhere" is clearly hubris and rather inaccurate by any reasonable definition of the term "plundering runs". Conversely, nine centuries in 20 matches including three doubles and a triple against Zimbabwe and Bangladesh would fit any reasonable definition of "plundering runs".

As far as the "hiding away at no.4" sentiment. Clearly more hubris. While it could obviously be more difficult at 3, as you may have to see off the new ball more often, surely batsmen bat where the team requires them to? Why would Sachin (or anyone else) bat at three when you have Dravid lol? I have doubts Border and Waugh used to "hide down the order"? Or Smith. It's team game Paddles.

Paddles

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834382

Semi-Pro

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K, Visits: 0

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 12:35 PM

And what's with saying no, and then saying its subjective? I gave you his stats as a batsman only, you can try and ignore them all you like, I bet if I tried to say he was the best wicket keeper batsman you'd have issues with the fact he played so much with out the gloves. Just not in reverse huh? And while you doubt S Waugh hid down the order, S Warne and I Chappel will very much tell you he did. But that I am in no mood for these conversations with you, as you're back to using words like "hubris". I won't entertain conversations with someone who is unable not to get personal.

When you can argue without all the personal slights, I'll converse again.

Edited
6 Years Ago by Paddles

flyslip

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834386

Hardcore Fan

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 192, Visits: 0

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 12:41 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 12:35 PM

Dude, I gave you his stats as a batsman only. You can deliberately choose to exclude them then. I bet if I tried to say he was the best wicket keeper batsman you'd have issues with the fact he played so much with out the gloves. But you're back to using words like "hubris". I won't entertain conversations with someone who is unable not to get personal.

I'm not entirely driven by stats Paddles. I used them to rebut a specific claim. Generally it's not difficult to find stats to support any argument and I could also ask why you cherry picked by leaving out the ones I brought up? The argument "as a batsmen only" is interesting but excludes much of his career and overlooks that he was a keeper batsmen. It's a "if your aunty had b-lls, she'd be your uncle" type of argument.

Sangakara was a great batsman, but I don't necessarily have to refer to the stats to have a pecking order. This is because of the many things the stats never illustrate. I rate him perhaps somewhere around Kallis. Certainly below Ponting or Dravid, who were themselves certainly below Tendulkar/Lara.

Edited
6 Years Ago by flyslip

Paddles

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834387

Semi-Pro

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K, Visits: 0

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 12:48 PM

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 12:41 PM

I'm not entirely driven by stats Paddles. I used them to rebut a specific claim. Generally it's not difficult to find stats to support any argument and I could also ask why you cherry picked by leaving out the ones I brought up?

Sangakara was a great batsman, but I don't necessarily have to refer to the stats to have a pecking order. This is because of the many things the stats never illustrate. I rate him perhaps somewhere around Kallis. Certainly below Ponting or Dravid, who were themselves certainly below Tendulkar/Lara.

Didn't cherry pick, I used his non wicket keeping stats. You kept trying to include them. Batting in the top 3 and wicket keeping, its no wonder he averaged 40 doing that role.

Yes you have your ratings - and I have mine. I blame the media marketing for yours, and you blame stats for mine. :)

Edited
6 Years Ago by Paddles

flyslip

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834392

Hardcore Fan

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 192, Visits: 0

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 12:50 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 12:48 PM

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 12:41 PM

Yes you have your ratings - and I have mine. I blame the media marketing for yours, and you blame stats for mine. :)

As someone who claims to have formal training in "philosophy", surely you will notice the argumentative logical fallacy (or fallacies) in that one Paddles?

Are they really necessary?

flyslip

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834395

Hardcore Fan

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 192, Visits: 0

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 1:04 PM

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 12:50 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 12:48 PM

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 12:41 PM

Yes you have your ratings - and I have mine. I blame the media marketing for yours, and you blame stats for mine. :)

As someone who claims to have formal training in "philosophy", surely you will notice the argumentative logical fallacy (or fallacies) in that one Paddles?

Are they really necessary?

Yeah yeah, ok. The emoticon makes it obvious, I take that back. I'll accept that it was simply a bit of a wind up. Almost worked too lol.

Paddles

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834396

Semi-Pro

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K, Visits: 0

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 1:04 PM

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 12:50 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 12:48 PM

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 12:41 PM

Yes you have your ratings - and I have mine. I blame the media marketing for yours, and you blame stats for mine. :)

As someone who claims to have formal training in "philosophy", surely you will notice the argumentative logical fallacy (or fallacies) in that one Paddles?

Are they really necessary?

Well given we do have different ratings, there must be reasons for this. And given a fallacy is an error in logic, you want to claim I am factually wrong, cos the logical cause can still be valid, it's only a good argument if factually accurate. Prove I am factually wrong. :) Either way, there are some causes to blame.

Edited
6 Years Ago by Paddles

Paddles

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834389

Semi-Pro

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K, Visits: 0

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 12:48 PM

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 12:41 PM

Right, so who was the better wicketkeeper batsman then, Gilchrist or Sanga? Has to be Sanga right? Using your logic? Now suddenly Gilchrist is unfairly put in comparison. Why do this? It's a not a fair nor even logical comparison in my opinion. But the logic goes both ways, and not just applied willy nilly. I'd do the same with Alec Stewart (47 vs 35), in fact I do do the same.

Edited
6 Years Ago by Paddles

flyslip

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834398

Hardcore Fan

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 192, Visits: 0

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 12:41 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 12:35 PM

When you can argue without all the personal slights, I'll converse again

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

Yes, we wouldn't want to let such a thing onto the forums, heaven forbid. Especially forums where people are invited to give their cricketing opinions based largely on personal insight. We are robots who go by statistics and therefore Adam Voges is the second greatest test batsman of all time.

Edited
6 Years Ago by flyslip

Paddles

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834399

Semi-Pro

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K, Visits: 0

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 1:24 PM

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 12:41 PM

Personal insight is fine by me. Personal slights are not fine by me. I don't see the connection from differing personal insights and rationale to hubris. Let's try and keep this forum at a better level than the rest.

And for the record, Smith has actually over taken Voges by the way. But I don't think even the keenest statsman would offer Voges' name up in the top 20, 30 or 50 ever :)

Edited
6 Years Ago by Paddles

flyslip

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834405

Hardcore Fan

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 192, Visits: 0

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 1:27 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 1:24 PM

*Second best retired batsman of all time*...statistically (behind Bradman). :w00t:

Right, so who was the better wicketkeeper batsman then, Gilchrist or Sanga?

Andy Flower?

Has to be Sanga right? Using your logic? Now suddenly Gilchrist is unfairly put in comparison. Why do this? It's a not a fair nor even logical comparison in my opinion. But the logic goes both ways, and not just applied willy nilly. I'd do the same with Alec Stewart (47 vs 35), in fact I do do the same.

I rarely have "black or white" thinking this way.

If I was looking for a keeper/batsman (and possibly Captain) for a weakish team, Sangakarra would be a good choice.

If I was looking for a keeper/batsman to follow a good batting order, the icing on the cake so to speak, who could simply put attacks to the sword after a start it would be Gilchrist any day.

If I was simply choosing a best batting top six line up, neither would make it.

Edited
6 Years Ago by flyslip

Paddles

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834407

Semi-Pro

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K, Visits: 0

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 1:42 PM

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 1:27 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 1:24 PM

*Second best retired batsman of all time*...statistically (behind Bradman). :w00t:

Right, so who was the better wicketkeeper batsman then, Gilchrist or Sanga?

Andy Flower?

I didn't ask for a weak team or strong team, I said the best wicket keeper batsman. You never brought in team strengths for Sanga vs Lara and Tendulkar. Why are you now? You didn't even like the batting order difference before of 3 and 4, now you want to bring in a 7 to downhill ski off the back of a good top order? Very interesting.

Edited
6 Years Ago by Paddles

flyslip

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834412

Hardcore Fan

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 192, Visits: 0

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 1:27 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 1:24 PM

Personal insight is fine by me. Personal slights are not fine by me.

Fair enough, I'll take back the hubris which was probably was uncalled for...and replace it with *hyperbole* which it most definitely was.

I actually misread the relevant post anyway, a bit carelessly, so the confusion is mine and apologies.

And given a fallacy is an error in logic, you want to claim I am factually wrong, cos the logical cause can still be valid, it's only a good argument if factually accurate. Prove I am factually wrong. Smile

Either way, there are some causes to blame.

You seem to be of the opinion that I'm trying to convince you of cricketing "facts". This isn't so, though I have pointed out certain data and offered another interpretation. Nor am I necessarily claiming you are wrong. Or that I must be right (no matter how much I believe it). That really would be hubris. I'm giving my opinion and no more than that.

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 1:48 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 1:42 PM

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 1:27 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 1:24 PM

*Second best retired batsman of all time*...statistically (behind Bradman). :w00t:

Right, so who was the better wicketkeeper batsman then, Gilchrist or Sanga?

Andy Flower?

I didn't ask for a weak team or strong team, I said the best wicket keeper batsman. You never brought in team strengths for Sanga vs Lara and Tendulkar. Why are you now?

Didn't think it was relevant. We weren't directly comparing any two particular batsmen. Not only that, but Tendulkar and Lara did carry weak teams.

If I had to go one or the other, Gilchrist. Though that could change as per the caveats mentioned previously. Otherwise I would be proposed with a what I believe to be a false dilemma. They were both pretty good.

Edited
6 Years Ago by flyslip

Paddles

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834423

Semi-Pro

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K, Visits: 0

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 2:04 PM

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 1:27 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 1:24 PM

Personal insight is fine by me. Personal slights are not fine by me.

Fair enough, I'll take back the hubris which was probably was uncalled for...and replace it with *hyperbole* which it most definitely was.

You seem to be of the opinion that I'm trying to convince you of cricketing "facts". This isn't so, though I have pointed out certain data and offered another interpretation. Nor am I necessarily claiming you are wrong. Or that I must be right (no matter how much I believe it). That really would be hubris. I'm giving my opinion and no more than that.

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 1:48 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 1:42 PM

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 1:27 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 1:24 PM

*Second best retired batsman of all time*...statistically (behind Bradman). :w00t:

Right, so who was the better wicketkeeper batsman then, Gilchrist or Sanga?

Andy Flower?

I didn't ask for a weak team or strong team, I said the best wicket keeper batsman. You never brought in team strengths for Sanga vs Lara and Tendulkar. Why are you now?

Didn't think it was relevant. We weren't directly comparing any two particular batsmen. Not only that, but Tendulkar and Lara did carry weak teams.

If I had to go one or the other, Gilchrist. Though that could change as per the caveats mentioned previously. Otherwise I would be proposed with a what I believe to be a false dilemma. They were both pretty good.

Wow. I mean sure - they had weak seamers commonly, but a weak team? Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Laxman, Ganguly, Azzra, Sidhu. Lets test this theory.

View overall figures [change view]

Start of match date between 1 Nov 1989 and 16 Nov 2013

Batting position between 1 and 7

Grouped by team

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 11 of 11

First

Last

Overall figures
Team	Players	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	100	50	0
Australia	68	1989-2013	268	3174	297	124765	380	43.36	330	601	245
India	71	1989-2013	217	2496	215	95089	319	41.68	225	460	166
South Africa	55	1992-2013	207	2398	226	88811	311*	40.88	218	420	178
Sri Lanka	68	1989-2013	195	2284	191	81710	374	39.03	190	367	194
England	95	1990-2013	283	3464	273	119784	333	37.53	275	592	270
Pakistan	86	1989-2013	196	2351	175	80887	329	37.17	181	406	198
West Indies	90	1990-2013	219	2658	199	86732	400*	35.27	173	433	231
New Zealand	87	1989-2013	192	2385	162	71832	299	32.31	119	378	226
Zimbabwe	66	1992-2013	93	1203	69	32366	266	28.54	47	173	124
Bangladesh	50	2000-2013	81	1105	37	26874	200	25.16	26	132	111
ICC World XI	7	2005-2005	1	14	1	293	76	22.53	0	1	3

Edited
6 Years Ago by Paddles

flyslip

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834427

Hardcore Fan

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 192, Visits: 0

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 2:19 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 2:04 PM

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 1:27 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 1:24 PM

Personal insight is fine by me. Personal slights are not fine by me.

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 1:48 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 1:42 PM

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 1:27 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 1:24 PM

*Second best retired batsman of all time*...statistically (behind Bradman). :w00t:

Right, so who was the better wicketkeeper batsman then, Gilchrist or Sanga?

Andy Flower?

I didn't ask for a weak team or strong team, I said the best wicket keeper batsman. You never brought in team strengths for Sanga vs Lara and Tendulkar. Why are you now?

Wow. I mean sure - they weak seamers, but a weak team? Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Laxman, Ganguly, Azzra, Sidhu. Lets test this theory.

This overlooks the fact that India were a weak team in the '90s who struggled outside of the subcontinent. When discussing Tendulkar I don't think he was great from the early/mid 2000's anyway.

Lara also carried a weak team (in the 2000's). He managed to win matches off his own bat, against some the best cricketers of his generation.

I doubt your stats disprove that they both did cary weak teams.

It also underlines why I feel purely stats driven arguments aren't very compelling. Otherwise people might marry purely because of stats. They can be a guide, they offer something to consider when forming an opinion.

As Adam Voges illustrates.

Edited
6 Years Ago by flyslip

Paddles

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834431

Semi-Pro

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K, Visits: 0

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 2:27 PM

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 2:19 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 2:04 PM

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 1:27 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 1:24 PM

Personal insight is fine by me. Personal slights are not fine by me.

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 1:48 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 1:42 PM

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 1:27 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 1:24 PM

*Second best retired batsman of all time*...statistically (behind Bradman). :w00t:

Right, so who was the better wicketkeeper batsman then, Gilchrist or Sanga?

Andy Flower?

I didn't ask for a weak team or strong team, I said the best wicket keeper batsman. You never brought in team strengths for Sanga vs Lara and Tendulkar. Why are you now?

Wow. I mean sure - they weak seamers, but a weak team? Sehwag, Gambhir, Dravid, Laxman, Ganguly, Azzra, Sidhu. Lets test this theory.

This overlooks the fact that India were a weak team in the '90s who struggled outside of the subcontinent. When discussing Tendulkar I don't think he was great from the early/mid 2000's anyway.

Lara also carried a weak team (in the 2000's). He managed to win matches off his own bat, against some the best cricketers of his generation.

I doubt your stats disprove that they both did cary weak teams.

It also underlines why I feel purely stats driven arguments aren't very compelling. Otherwise people might marry purely because of stats. They can be a guide, they offer something to consider when forming an opinion.

India's batting pedigree goes back to the 1980's, thanks to the likes of Vengasarakar, Gavaskar and more. But lets focus on the 1990's -

View overall figures [change view]

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 31 Dec 1999

Grouped by team

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 9 of 9

First

Last

Overall figures
Team	Players	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
India	52	1990-1999	69	31519	227	33.10	71	1007	10/74	33.46	37	583	16	-0.36
Australia	56	1990-1999	108	52992	334*	33.07	110	1777	8/38	27.75	79	1138	30	5.32
South Africa	39	1992-1999	66	30249	275*	31.64	52	1043	8/64	27.05	41	658	4	4.58
Pakistan	63	1990-1999	76	33212	257*	29.03	62	1190	7/56	28.52	65	576	28	0.50
Sri Lanka	51	1990-1999	67	28700	340	28.90	50	882	9/65	35.67	37	536	28	-6.76
England	84	1990-1999	107	48549	333	27.98	81	1506	9/57	34.85	56	1005	20	-6.87
West Indies	55	1990-1999	81	34734	375	27.89	55	1245	8/45	29.23	54	821	8	-1.33
New Zealand	57	1990-1999	81	35465	299	27.44	45	1073	7/27	36.00	43	709	9	-8.55
Zimbabwe	43	1992-1999	39	15742	266	24.40	21	481	6/90	36.05	13	337	5	-11.65

Well there's a stick in the mud... Tendy was their best batsman in the 90's. Dravid took over in the 2000's.

Edited
6 Years Ago by Paddles

BaggyGreens

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834608

Pro

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 4.1K, Visits: 0

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 12:41 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 12:35 PM

You may have met your match Paddles.

flyslip

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834433

Hardcore Fan

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 192, Visits: 0

A quick look shows this for India in away matches in the '90's. It doesn't indicate a strong team. Their only away win out of 39 attempts being in Sri Lanka. 0 wins outside of the subcontinent. Although I already had that opinion without looking for stats, I now see they offer support. Though I would posit that many of the draws wouldn't have been achieved either without Tendulkar (without looking up any stats), he also face some exceptional bowling early on in his career.

Overall figures
	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
unfiltered	1932-2019	535	152	165	1	217	0.921	33.86	2.93	949	759	42	Profile
filtered	1990-1999	39	1	15	0	23	0.066	32.90	2.85	65	606	66

Edited
6 Years Ago by flyslip

flyslip

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834435

Hardcore Fan

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 192, Visits: 0

edit.

Edited
6 Years Ago by flyslip

Paddles

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834437

Semi-Pro

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K, Visits: 0

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 2:37 PM

Overall figures
	Span	Mat	Won	Lost	Tied	Draw	W/L	Ave	RPO	Inns	HS	LS
unfiltered	1932-2019	535	152	165	1	217	0.921	33.86	2.93	949	759	42	Profile
filtered	1990-1999	39	1	15	0	23	0.066	32.90	2.85	65	606	66

Yeah - their seamers sucked. But Tendulkar was hardly carrying the seam attack. And SL from the 90's had Aravinda, Jayasuriya (Jayawarene comes 1998), Tilikiratne, Ranatunga, Mohanama, Attapatu, even Gurusinghe with Vaas and Murali. They were hardly easy beats in the Murali era - cos his batsmen gave him runs.

What I find more interesting is whether SL can ever recapture that golden era, which arguably got better with Saamarewa, Sanga and Dilshan for them, of batting back again? They are only 21 million, with far too many FC teams.

Edited
6 Years Ago by Paddles

flyslip

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834449

Hardcore Fan

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 192, Visits: 0

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 2:43 PM

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 2:37 PM

Perhaps that's why India's only win was in '93 No Vaas, Murali didn't play. So you're saying by this, that Sangakara certainly didn't have to carry a weak team ( thought some of his teams were better than those in the '90's)? Fair enough, I thought they were quite weak though and always have been a bit weak.

Mohanama, Gurashinge, Rannatunga ?:laugh: Yeah, sure Paddles... (having a lend, surely?)

Edited
6 Years Ago by flyslip

Paddles

Posted 6 Years Ago

#2834454

Semi-Pro

Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.5K, Visits: 0

flyslip - 23 Sep 2019 3:15 PM

Paddles - 23 Sep 2019 2:43 PM

Perhaps that's why India's only win was in '93 No Vaas, Murali didn't play. So you're saying by this, that Sangakara certainly didn't have to carry a weak team? Fair enough, I thought they were quite weak though.

Mohanama, Gurashinge, Rannatunga ?:laugh: Yeah, sure Paddles... (having a lend, surely?)

Not at all have a lend, but Mohonama shouldn't be included. I don't think Sanga at all played in a weak batting line up. He was just the best, but he was surrounded by some exceptional talent for most of career until the very end, when they begged him to not retire. I think Guru and Rana would walk into the current SL, Eng and possibly SA teams, and be in the discussion for Australian selection too. ;)

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team Sri Lanka

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1995

Qualifications innings batted greater than or equal to 11

Ordered by batting average (descending)

Page 1 of 2

Showing 1 - 50 of 62

First