I always found it a compelling argument that, since the nsl got rid of p and r that it didnt work

To add to that, supporters of p and r tend to not defend p and r during the nsl era, saying it didnt work because it was an ad hoc system...but if we had a real p and r system it would work. So it always seemed to me that both sides conceded that p and r, at least in the form we had it, didnt work. This made it a debate between whether a proper p and r system would work and those that thought that an ad hoc system not working was evidence against any system

Im starting to question that narrative.

P and r is meant to produce the following benefits according to the academic literature
1) improvement of quality
2) growth of participation rate
3) growth of crowds because promoted teams gain more in attendance than relegated teams lose

On 1) it is very interesting to see the elo of the national team graphed over time

https://www.international-football.net/country?team=Australia

Ill digitize and analyse the plot later. But it seems that that if u take 1977 to 1993 there is a trend with plateaus before and afterwards.

From the ntc, apparently the most important era of youth development is between 9 and 13. The golden gen were born 75 (viduka) to 80(bresc etc) which meant their key era of youth development was 1984-1993. We declined after scrapping p and r but it takes a while to see the fruit of the decline. The numbers line up pretty well here actually.

Another interesting data point is that south melbourne effectively opted out of p and r earlier than the league as a whole. They also peaked with lazaridis (1972) and declined in terms of the quality of player they produced afterwards

On 2) id love to have data tho i imagine it is hard to analyse. Multiple factors contribute to participation rates including qualifying and hosting major tournaments. Still, if participation data is available for that era at least on a state level it might be interesting to see if you can detect and effect of p and r boosting participation

On 3) since we had no 2nd tier back then we had 100 odd clubs fighting for 1 or 2 positions in the nsl. So we rarely got to see a club promoted the year after relegation (in england on average there is one yoyo team per year). However, the few teams that did yoyo did show crowd growth when they did, an average boost of nearly 900. So p and r was helping attendences all other things held equally, just more slowly than it would have if there were intermediate leagues to make yoyoing more common. Having said that, the nsl actually collapsed a decade after p and r was scrapped which is at least some evidence it was more sustainable with p and r than without.


Im curious to hear peoples thoughts, i wasnt around at the time so might be missing some crucial bits of evidence for and against the type of p and r we had. But wanted to hear peoples thoughts, since at least at first glance it does seem even ad hoc p and r worked pretty well?

When the form of pro/rel the nsl had was scrapped at the end of the 92/93 season (Preston were the last team relegated and Morwell the last team promoted) the nsl was going through the stage where soccer australia were trying to de-ethnicize the league, only 2 years later Heidelberg and Brunswick were thrown out of the league (relegation by force). Cant recall nsw but others were forced out as well. In the mid to late 90s only broadbased teams were allowed to enter the comp.

Definately was outrage at the time but what could anyone do? Soccer Australia wanted what it wanted and you cant beat the governing body when they're set on something. No different to now with the FA kicking the NSD can down the road (they dont want it).

The nsl was definately worse off without it.

I know it's been mentioned before but as reasons go, this really can't be emphasised enough: there never was a national second-tier below the NSL. It's pretty self-evident that within a few years of the league's formation, the disparity in standard between it and the state-leagues had already grown so as to be more of a chasm than a mere gap - and not just in the on-field sense.

Their was neither rhyme nor reason to the shifting goalposts at Soccer Australia Grazor... "policies" changed every year or so... Trying to make sense of that god awful past will drive you insane.... Sometimes there is no data to be gleamed from "data" mate....  Go ask a Bergers or Preston supporter WTF actually happened in 1994 and I bet most are still scratching their heads going wtf?

That year alone, Newcastle pulled out weeks before the season because they where broke (*yes yes new dawners, some things never change) and to top it off the ASF decide it agreed with our US cousins that draws where terrible so penalties decided drawn games - Four points were awarded for a win, two for a win on penalties, one for a penalty loss and no points for a loss in regulation time ......

P and R didnt "work" in the NSL because nothing really "worked" in the NSL....  believe me they tried everything

right but I'm making the case that p and r did work even if nothing else in the nsl did

thanks for your perspective. Did you perceive the quality plateauing when it was scrapped

I agree the benefits of p and r would be more obvious with a nst because then you would see crowd numbers grow more rapidly if you have 1 team yoyo each season on average

Im not sure I understand your comment here:

"Another interesting data point is that south melbourne effectively opted out of p and r earlier than the league as a whole. They also peaked with lazaridis (1972) and declined in terms of the quality of player they produced afterwards"

probably poorly worded on my part (for one thing it implies it was their fault rather than a centralized decision)

I meant that south melbourne didn't get relegated when they finished bottom of the ladder just before the league as a whole scrapped p&r, so I would expect their plateau in youth development to start before the league as a whole. I think south melbournes best product was laziridis whose birth year falls out of that purple patch of birth years 1975-80

Which lazaridis are you talking about mate? Stan Lazaridis????  Sorry mate Im not sure why or how you would associate anything to do with South Melbourne? 

Weve had 52 x players from our club wear the green and gold but NOT Stan the Man mate....

https://www.smfc.com.au/history/smfcsocceroos/

Oops that was a dumb goof on my part :D

In my defence it was 6 in the morning here haha

Am i right that none of cahill, bresc, emerton, culina, moore, neill, grella, dukes, sterjovski, chippers, aloisi came through sm? Who do u think was the best roo before and after that mob?

Only as rivals .... to answer your loaded questions with some semblance of sincerity:

Before - Paul Wade - Cptn Socceroo for longevity but I still think Boutsi, Trimboli and Polak where stiffed by playing in era of poor results.
After - the GG, not many, Rogic, Mooey, .... maybe.

I mean no offence by the questions

Wade over muscat?

and even before them re being stiffed by results but lets not forget how part time it was in defense of them.

I think quite a few go above Wadey as much as he put in but he was SMH through and through maybe why :)

Dougie/Rooney/Abonyi/Baartz/Shaefer/Alston stand above and whoever else I've missed.

Yer Mooysie had the class we lack/ed, Rogic had some clout we lack, Maybe Milly and Jedi for guts and efforts.
Graz I'd have to delve into my stats data :) wink wink.

I think this is one of your astute posts mate, yer I just can't see how you can break down how what when or whatever for the goal posts changed pre season, during season, end of season - next meeting to next - it had no foundation to go back on but play football.
Everything was done reactive even though the highs were brilliant and next not.

Dougie Brown and Steve Blair.... for lots of reasons, should have had long and illustrious Socceroos careers... 

Hello darkest my old friend
We are talking about P & R again 
It was a vision softly creeping
and then it left my heart bleeding.

The only way P & R would work in this country is if the NPL NSW replaced the A-league as the premier football competition in Australia.  Cashed up interstaters could apply for licenses to join the competition down the track.  The principle problems in Australia are money and geography.

I dont think any "interstaters" want to take away the places of the franchise b teams playing up there in the premier competition... 

And politics. Although, that's a largely the sum of both the variables/problems you've already mentioned.

Mon
How much do you know about Sabit Jame Ngor, plays for Heidelberg United. 

Rumour on our forum he is signing with us on Thursday....

Sign him up IMMEDIATELY.... very silky winger (quite young still I believe) was a stand out at the Bergers this year, go back and re-watch the Heidelberg v CCM Australia Cup game, he tore your fullbacks to shreds.... 

thanks

Reactive is one way to summarise it. Thought bubbles by those in charge, marketing people, whatever were hastily brought in - everyone thought they had the fix.
The axing of Brunswick and Heidelberg more or less paved the way for Carlton and Collingwood to enter - for those not old enough to remember that scenario I won't go into detail - but just think - allowing AFL clubs to have a presence in the NSL... Yeh...

I still remember some of these initiatives being discussed by Johnny and Les on On The Ball. The penalty thing was lauded because they did it in Croatia (with apparently great success which is why they're still doing it - not). The Carlton/Collingwood thing - comparing them to European multis-sport super clubs like Real Madrid.. yes , they said something like that.

Because Perth Glory was succeeding as a "non-ethnic" club Northern Spirit and Parramatta Power were ushered in - where are they now?

yer saying reactive was being polite so to speak.
RD and look where we are so so many years later, same same Feds do their its my State outlook.
I get looking after your patch but we're in the same quick sand as in the past, FA should be able to rule over every State on specific directives so as every State is aligned on the same pathways/systems.
OMG the Carlton/whatstheirname scenario, joke.

Mentioning the NSL new dawn ethnic cleanse - sound familiar eh the young ones thought ol Frankie was the genious haha

Interesting point of discussion - I notice they are the ones always brought up with this - but you mentioned another team/club that would fall into the same boat, that isn't generally mentioned in the same breath of "Imaging letting clubs from other evil sports in our league": Parramatta Power. My understanding is that they are essentially Parramatta Eels.

I know that nothing happened with Parra after the NSL folded (having lost the last NSL Grand Final and finishing 2nd on the table that season). "

Were there any conceptions of them possibly "ruining our sport from within" (as is probably the thinking with Carlton/Collingwood in the NSL), or does it seem like there's more respect for Football from the Rugba Leeg community? Genuinely curious on those old enough to have lived those days. I was a wee-one back then, and my main memories of the NSL are the two Perth v Sydney Olympic finals (in light of my brother's mate being playing for Olympic around that time/just afterwards) - nothing off-field like this.

franchises, franchises..... same old story, same old players.......

https://www.sbs.com.au/sport/article/a-league-expansion-driven-by-money-lacks-soul/hzmz94hjv

Good read, and everything spot on - but also proves the point that I mentioned in the first post:

No disdain for Parramatta Eels in there (as compared with Carlton and Collingwood).

?? Got me there.... I dont know much about matters up north... I guess maybe, being rugby and football both played on similarly sized pitches,  the turf war we experience down here isn't as pronounced? 

I would say that back then(late '90s) there def still was open-hostility towards football from Rugby League(and Union), even if not to the same extent as it had(and continues to) to put up with from the AFL in its respective strongholds.

It's always been my pet-theory that Sydney/NSW hosting a lil' sports-carnival by the name of the Olympic Games in 2000 went a *very* long way towards obliterating that sort of parochial bloodymindedness that by contrast still very much characterises Melb/VIC and the other AFL strongholds to this day...