Hi All,

I'm hoping that in time this forum and section can be a valuable place for amateur coaches to come and get/share ideas - ask advice and help other coaches.

As I said in my blog I'll be posting some of my session plans up so maybe this could be the place where other people can do likewise.

Let's kick off by finding out who's coaching and at what level and what qualifications you have.

I have my AFC C License and am coaching the Development Squad at the Sutherland Shire FA details of what that entails can be found here. This season I had 16 U12 boys and next season I will have 32 U10 boys which we are trialling at the moment. I am also looking at taking a team at U11/12 level at my local club.

My aim is to complete my AFC B License next year and I have to say my decision to take my coaching more seriously is the best thing I ever did....as I love every minute of it.

Over to you...

Cheers

Andy

I'm going to get back into coaching next year. I did a bit of it (and refereeing) out of high school but I feel like my skills are outdated.

Where do you get your proper coaching licenses? Every capital city?

I coached for the first time this season. I had a group of 9 year olds who I'm keen to coach again next year.

There are two pathways - community and advanced.

Community goes grass roots>junior>youth>senior

Advanced goes C>B>A>Pro

The community programs are all run by state federations/local associations and advanced programs are run centrally by FFA.

I'd start with dropping you local association/state fed a line and asking for their schedule of community courses.

Cheers

Andy

Coached my sisters AA2 side this season just past. Lost the first 3 games, came back to finish second but lost in the Grand Final qualifier in ET.

Got the bulk of the girls back for next year along with a few more acquisitions. Looking to at least make the GF.

i would love to get my coaching licenses .i dont want to do the community stuff though. i want to get the proper stuff.

im assuming i would have to contact the ffa for that?

Yes you can apply to take the advanced courses but they would expect you to either have the senior license already or have what they call "significant" playing experience.

http://www.footballaustralia.com.au/2009GameDev/default.aspx?s=community_coaching_news_news_item_new&id=26882 here's the page on the FFA site

so in other words, id need to do the community licenses before i could go any further.

pretty much.....however I don't think you need to do all of them...I think you can just do your senior license...although that would be up to your local federation/association

Fantastic section Andy expect me to be a pain and start a lot of threads haha.

I think there are so many issue in terms of coaching in Australia.

My biggest hate is the cost of coaching and doing courses in Australia.

I am a young coach who would give anything in the world to become an elite coach but it seems that unless you are an x players the pathway is expenisve, long and very difficult.

The costs of coaching licences are exorbitant.

It has cost me $1600 for one community and one advanced course. Living where I do it costs much more for accommodation and air fares to the courses.

I received an $800 discount as I had a relative residing close to the AIS in Canberra. I stayed at the relative's house for the course duration.

It is cheaper to the Asian Confed Licences in Singapore. Some contend there is cronyism too and a clique. That is another reason for some going offshore. They think there is a conspiracy against them passing.

If I do another one I think it may be in the Netherlands.

Hi Andy, Good topic and some nice posts by people interested in coaching. I'm really looking forward to reading this topic in the future. I note your playing for your local over 35's. This is a really good thing to do as you get to have a beer and chat with other experienced players/coaches and pool knowledge between yourselves. Brainstorming with others who are very experienced is a real eye opener and gets you thinking from all different aspects.

I'm an ex-state league player (now close to 50) and have some pretty impressive medals in my trophy cabinet including state league premiers medals and Champions of Champions medals. I was also asked to go to Argentina as a youth and play over there but my heart would bleed green and gold only (which turned out to be a big mistake) because my parents were Aussies also.

Anyways I retired at 21 because back in those days a job paid 10 times more than playing and at 21 providing a sound financial future for my family took precedence. All history now.

Every time I would take my lad to a club I would try to keep quiet about my past playing experience but whenever I would chat with people about techniques, drills, skills yada yada I would always find myself being roped into coaching. I really hate seeing coaches with no idea teaching kids the wrong way to play. I really love football but the politics within drives me crazy. I got roped into playing over 35's in the local granville comp which i'm glad I did. I learnt more about technique, skills, drills and coaching from fellow players and coaches who also coach at NSW level, ex-socceroos (2 captains, one the most capped socceroo ever) and many ex-nsl players, many ex-state players and coaches. What I learned from them was gold.

I havent coached much in the last 6 years because politics (the natural enemy of coaches) works against what coaches try to achieve and thats taking the best players and making them better. I have never sat for a coaches licence ever because at our local association I've forgotten more than the people who get paid to train coaches.

In the last 2 years i've taken part in assist coaching 2 teams who never finished higher than 3rd or 4th and turned them into div 1 winning teams and both made quarters of the C of C's. Not bad for a person that has never even gained a coaches licence.

My questions to you are,

1. How does obtaining coaching licences compare to very experienced high level old players as coaches?
2. And why would players who have played the game at a very high level want to head down to the local bozo community coaches clinic when their knowledge levels are so low?
3. Are the theorists who give these coaching clinics better than gaining knowledge from those with many years playing experience at high levels? If so is the paper worth it?

Best wishes.

oops double post.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 19/10/2010 11:44:07 AM

Not sure if anyone can answer this for me.

Can you get your community coaching liscenses subsidised by a local club?

I know that my local cricket club covers the cost of your level 1 certificate if you put your hand up to coach a team, just wondering if this is the case with local football clubs.

Some massive questions there which I'm not sure I can do justice in one return post however here's some top line thoughts.

Formerly great players can make great coaches. Some can't. Just because you can "do" - doesn't mean you can teach. Indeed trying to break down a skill that is second nature to some players and teach a young player how to execute that that same skill may be beyond some ex-players either from a patience or communication perspective.

In fact I would say coaching at any level is becoming more about effective communication than effective demonstration. The demonstration bit is nice to have but without the necessary communication it gets lost quite quickly.

I've learnt so much about this from coaching 10/11 yr olds and have many examples - one such time was when I was coaching passing and talking to the kids about the "weight" on their passes...it was about 5 mins in when I realised they hadn't a clue what I meant by that so had to break it down and demonstrate overhitting a pass and underhitting a pass and then passing one just right so they knew what I meant.

Assuming every former player makes a good coach there are still not enough former players to go round. Associations/clubs and parents should be insisting that coaches are adequately qualified for the age group and level they are coaching and as harsh as it may sound we have to start getting tough with this and barring people if they are not willing to get their qualifications.

If the truth be told I took the Junior license and found it a bit basic but I hadn't done the C License then.....however, for a club coach who's taking U6-U10 SSG then I think the junior license would be fine. I found the C License really challenging and have found it massively beneficial...I've spoken with many who played at a far higher standard than I ever did who said the same of the C/B/A Licenses.

The quality of the instructors I found excellent - Alistair Edwards and Harry Bingham. The nutrition section was done by an AIS Nuritionist, the goalkeeping section done by Tony Franken - the Socceroos GK coach.

It's about finding your level and if the community courses don't challenge you move up the scale. But just as importantly we need to start having minimum criteria for ALL levels of coaching. You wouldn't let your 6 year old get in the car with an unlicensed driver so you should expect their football coach to have at least the basic qualifications and if your child is on an elite program or playing rep football then the qualifications of the coach should rise accordingly.

Look how world football has changed over the last 20 years...it's crucial that those coaching our kids and our expectations of them move with it.

Hope that's answered some of your questions...I'm sure over the coming months we'll cover this area in more and more detail.

Cheers
Andy

I get what your saying with respect to really young players. Communication is the key and if they dont get it then demonstrating can provide the penny that drops.

I also teach teens and sometimes after explaining a technique they look at me with a blank face. Its then you have to don the boots and show them. Some students are very good at getting it via explanation, Others learn by seeing it then doing it.

At least at our age they get to see it demonstrated in slow motion ;)

I do have another question with regards to FFA pushing the 4-3-3 system. The questions are more pertinent to teen players.

Do you think coaches should push the 4-3-3 system because FFA endorses it as its preferred formation?

In discussions with other coaches it appears to depend on styles of football taught as to what formations are used.

How does the 4-3-3 compare to 3-5-2 and 4-4-2 or 4-3-2-1. Should a coach say right we appear to be getting beaten using our current 4-3-3 formation we need to switch? In other words should coaches approach their formations based on the other sides formations?

Thanks for your reply Andy, A lot of sense in what your saying and I look forward to further discussions with you.

Cheers.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 19/10/2010 03:10:12 PM

Hi mate

No doubt about it...combination of the ability to demonstrate and the ability to communicate is the key.

Really interesting blog here from Rohan Ricketts about his time at Spurs under Hoddle - a talented ex-player turned coach who could demonstrate anything but then became frustrated with his players who couldn't match his ability http://www.sabotagetimes.com/football-sport/what-really-happens-when-a-manager-loses-the-dressing-room I've read similar from England players about Hoddle's time with England

There are many variations of 4-3-3 that include what most people would call 4-5-1, 4-2-3-1, 4-3-2-1 can all be considered variations of 4-3-3. It does make sense as a formation for developing players because it promotes natural triangles/diamonds across the pitch and promotes natural width.

Personally with my 11 year olds this season in the few games we had we got them to play a nominal 4-2-3-1 for two main reasons;

1. Having 4 rows rather than 3 across the pitch reduced their need to try and pass the ball further than were really capable off with any accuracy
2. At 11 yrs old if I would have told 3 players they were playing up front they would have the tendency to feel they didn't have to get back and defend...by telling them they were attacking midfield players they defended as well as attacked
3. We regularly rotated all players through the positions often playing them in positions they don't play for their club....not to deliberately be different - just that we saw different aspects to their abilities that their club coaches maybe didn't

So on 4-3-3...I think it has great merit as a formation to develop young players but it's important people are aware of all it's variations and adapt these accordingly to the age and abilities of their players.

G'day Andy, The blog you posted is an interesting read. Without going into too much detail as I see you have reciprocated with a rather open ended referral to a blog that has so many pro's and con's to be discussed I shall jot my thoughts as brief as possible.

If we compare the Hoddle style to the Ferguson style it highlights the stark contrast in management styles.

For tottenham to allow Hoddle to be sacked in my mind explains why spurs don't have a lot of silverware, Would be very interesting to have been a fly on the wall at Hoddles preliminary meetings before becoming coach. I reckon it would have been spurs management wanting success for the club and not really understanding what the sacrifices are to achieve it. The upper management have allowed the players to dictate to them and overide the coaches intentions. This does happen more frequently at lower level type clubs where silverware isn't the prime goal for the price of success. Clubs that do allow the players to dictate over management rarely ever see success. What they build is a community player base rather than a performance based group of players. This is also often seen in association level clubs and then when players get to Super/Youth League its a mixture. At higher levels it becomes more performance based but still attempts to retain that communal player base feeling.

On the other hand at Man U with Fergusons style it's almost a purely performance based style which is primarily focussed on silverware. What player doesnt want silverware and if approached by Ferguson would refuse the offer. I wouldnt hesitate to say no-one would refuse. Clubs attract quality players often by their success. The old saying goes "Success breeds success" but that saying is only relevant to those who can utilise the good fortunate success.

I guess there are quite a few lessons to be learned in Hoddles case and just recently a lesson in Furgusons case where he is losing Rooney. At the end of the day a coach really needs to sit down with the club and clearly define what the clubs goals are and what boundaries or methods do they require to achieve them. No point going at it like a bull at a gate if the club just wants a communal player base or being very laid back if the club wants instant success.

I really like the integral energy ad on tv where the fired up coach is heard playing a big crowd tape, going over complicated strategies and really firing up his players then it pans to kids who are busy looking at birds in a tree or twiddling their thumbs with blank looks on their faces. Then congatulating his star player for another reverse hat trick. So funny but in some cases not far off the mark. I have actually seen this happen in real life which makes me wonder why these type don't learn from ads such as this.

Cheers

Edited by Aussiesrus: 20/10/2010 03:23:30 PM

Arm chair managers welcome here?

I am interested in the tactics of the game and do harbour ambitions of getting my licensing one day, for me the tactical side of the game has always been more appealing than actually playing it. I am more at home analyisng games, tactics, formations and players than I am having a kick at the park like most others

U-11 playing 11 v 11????

In Vic they play 9 v 9 on half a pitch.

Without turning this into an essay if your doing elite kids IMO instead of them playing 11 v 11 they should still be playing on half a pitch 9 v 9 I think even U-12 should aswell.
Reason being:
Technique gets tested in smaller and tighter areas.
Once teams go to 11 v 11 ALL coaches will start focusing on tactics.

The contraints of technique are:
Intensity (speed of technique)
Opposition
Space

I think the third one is overlooked. We add more players (11 v 11) however we add a bigger space aswell (full pitch) this kills the element of playing in tight areas which is so important in the modern game.

FMVS, In NSW I believe they go full pitch at U/9 but corners are taken at a reduced distance.

However I do agree with reduced pitch sizes for U/9, U/10, U/11's for your stated reasons. They should be playing a 1/2 to 3/4 size pitch in my opinion.

Playing in tight areas is so very important but so is being able to use space and passing over longer distances.

Its all very debatable and has is pro's and con's without doubt.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 21/10/2010 06:29:02 AM

Hi mate

Firstly I agree with everything you say.

These kids are under 12 and are playing on full pitches for their clubs...we only get them 1 night a week....this is a shadow squad to the elite rep group for the area...if you read my blog here I explain the system. They play a slightly modified version with corners and goal kicks taken from the edge of the 18 yd box.

We have 16 kids and so the most we play in our sessions with them is 8 v 8 on about 1/4 to 1/3 of a pitch but we play a handful of games as a squad through the year against other associations...some of these have been SSG format...most however have been on full pitches as that's what they are playing at club level.

In our area I believe they are moving to SSG up to U11...it's been U10 up until now.

Cheers

Andy

Hi andy,

Sorry mate I'm going to put you on the spot here. I know this is a performance section but this situation does happen to coaches and I really want to know what accredited coaches do in these type of situations. I've even found myself in this situation years ago.

There are a couple of things bugging me when I coached 10 and 11 year olds. I'm hoping you can give me some ideas should i ever have to deal with these type of things again. In fact I've seen the same thing with 16 year olds this year.

1. When I coached 10 year olds I had some very talented players who could take on players with their skills and get around them well. However these young talented players tended to get hacked off the park.

1a. How does a coach deal with these type of things when a ref doesn't protect the players? Quite a few times I had to take the player off through fear of him being seriously hurt.

2. One year I had a combination of under age players and players that had never played before, A team of 9 only out of 11. They were graded up a year and put in Div 1. Although I would have penned them in at div 2 in their own age group. I had no control over the gradings (as coaches never do). Basically they would spend the whole game in their box defending and ended up 100 goals against and 1 for all year.

2a. How would you deal with this situation and how would you approach the parents of these kids. Also what sort of things would you do to continue trying to encourage the kids to keep learning and trying?

Sometimes coaches get put into very tough situations and there appears to be no manual for how to best deal with it. Sadly I've seen the same thing this year in our U/17 yr old comp where a team ended up with something like 250 goals against and 2 for. So its not only very young kids that get put into these type of situations.

Mate if I could nominate a good sports team of the year this team would be it. They turned up every week, week in week out despite the odds against them.

Cheers

Edited by Aussiesrus: 21/10/2010 09:31:12 PM

Hi mate

I can offer an opinion but not experience having never experienced either scenario yet first hand.

In the first case where players are getting hacked.....if it crossed the line from controlled aggression to outright hacking.....I'd probably first try to speak with the referee to ask why he isn't offering players the necessary protection although appreciate that can be difficult with the age/experience of most referees controlling that age group. I'd also speak to the opposing coach and ask him if he's asked his player(s) to play like that and if not whether he's happy with that....if he has asked them to play like that then I'd tell him he should be ashamed of him/herself. I too would probably take the player off to avoid serious injury that week....however I would then work with the group as a whole and your flair players in particular about how to deal with this in future....often (like playground bullies) these sort of over aggressive players soon back down if they are stood up to and I would teach my team the value of collective responsibility and the need to look after your team mates on the pitch....a collective show of strength might be needed against these sorts of players.

Scenario 2 - the obvious answer is that you've been let down badly by the grading system...BUT if I ended up stuck in that scenario I would forget about the final scoreline and set the kids smaller challenges over the course of a game that you could work on in training.

e.g. maybe break the game down into 10 minute chunks and try to concede as few a goals as possible in each ten minute chunk....and aim for a clean sheet in as many ten minute chunks as you can.....if they concede 5 in the first ten minutes no bother - the game begins again in the 11th minute...try and concede less this time.

offensively you could set them challenges within the game such as how many times they can complete 3 consecutive passes or 5 consecutive passes.....how many overlapping runs they can make, how many one-twos etc

all of the above can be worked on in training and then taken into the game

the kids may still lose each week but if they are achieving the goals you are setting them then praise them as if they've won the game...because ultimately they have.

if they start winning these little games within games then you should (hopefully) see an improvement in the overall result and even if you don't if you set them realistic objectives that they keep achieving each week it should still be a positive experience....you have to commit to though and really believe that 3 consecutive passes of only conceding 4 in a ten minute chunk is worthy of praise or they will see it/hear it in your voice

I think the key thing is to show that you still believe they are capable of improvement and approach training like that ....even if if improvement may mean losing 7-0 rather than 10-0

hope that makes sense and as I say that's my opinion on how I'd approach it as opposed to any direct experience

Edited by Andy Jackson: 22/10/2010 08:21:40 AM

Cheers Andy.

Some very helpful advice here. Not always, but usually its the volounteer mums n dads that find themselves coaching in these scenarios and its heartbreaking for whoever is the coach.

Good stuff mate. Keep it coming.

I cannot wait to see how you conduct a training session. I did under u/11 last season although I am doing u/15 next year I still regard 9-13 as the most important age.

I will be interested to see if you follow the FFA model of letting players "develop" instead of teaching them technique which not many people understand.

This is a massive topic IMO because this model of letting players "develop" is already outdated with Spain and France doing a combination of both (which makes a lot of sense).

Hey FMVS,

I've coached U/9, U/10 , U/11 , U/17, Prems, Reserves.

I've found that U/9 - U/11 tend to forget everything they learn as soon as the whistle blows to start a game.

U/17's tend to retain part and occassionally use what they learn at training in a game, but its usually "Whateva" And are always happy to share their years of inexperience how they should play.

Prems and Reserves think they know everything and don't listen anyway.

I agree 9-13's are a blank canvas to work with but the whistle blowing for the start of a game tends to keep the canvas blank during a game.

I wish I had a dollar for everytime i've heard a coach say "Why do I bother!!"

The key is really educating them so they have that knowledge. But when they start to use it is anyones guess. Sometimes it can be years.

I think you will get a lot more satisfaction from coaching U/15's next year as they are aware enough to learn and not too old to think they know everything. It's a golden age for learning

Best of luck.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 22/10/2010 02:24:36 PM

Obviously what you won't be able to see from a session plan is at what point we jump in and make corrections because until we start we don't know of course. But what you'll be able to see is the structure, the mix of activities and the progressions. I'll add in the blog the purpose of each exercise and I'll be glad to share what works and what doesn't.

When I did my C License two years ago - which was of course run by FFA - they certainly weren't saying that everything had to be coached within the game setting.

The phrase that I believe was coined by Wenger is "guided discovery" where the coach creates environments where players are encouraged to find their own solutions rather than just being told "do it like this".

HOWEVER - this relies on them having a basic and fundamental grasp of the technique first and in that regard I see no problem with breaking down the elements of each technique at an early age especially coaching kids the right body position, part of the foot etc to execute each technique and much of the C License focussed on this. And I certainly do that although I will try and coach that in a dynamic environment rather than having the kids stand opposite each other kicking the ball backwards and forwards to each other.

I always try and make any part of session relevant to a game situation so the kids see there is a point to everything you are asking them to do.....I also always try to end my sessions with a game that is manufactured to hone in on the particular area we've been working on.

Often at 10-11 years old it's making it relevant in a frame of reference they can relate to - and that's generally a famous player.

Sometimes I'll look for an example from the weekend's EPL or A-League games to start the session e.g. a good volley, or header or overlapping run or own-two that then focuses the kids on what we're trying to achieve.

I also use the magazine to show examples of good technique...e.g players striking the ball - part of the foot, position of the head.



I'm still learning every single week as a coach. Sometimes you try things that work, some don't...sometimes you change the session you had planned on the fly because it's not going the way you thought it would.

We need to be as hungry to learn, flexible and adaptable as we expect our players to be.....and just as in life sometimes you have to hold your hand up admit you didn't get it right and commit to doing it better next time.

The reason I'm doing this it to share the ups and downs of coaching at this level and I'd hope other people might do the same and join the discussion. It's going to get boring very quickly if it's just my session plans getting picked apart by you lot :d

So I'd be keen to see what you do with your U15s and learn from your experiences that may help me if I coach that age group in the future.


Hope that makes sense

Andy

Edited by Andy Jackson: 22/10/2010 03:01:13 PM

Yeah it does make a lot of sense.

I don't know what the courses are like in NSW but in Vic we are told NOT to teach technique. We just play a game that encourages the technical topic and thats it.

E.g. Passing - 2 touch normal game
Dribbling - to score a goal it has to be dribbled into the end zone.
etc
And the thing is if you dont do this the FFV crack it because we are supose to be part of National curriculum.

I will give you a run down of my U-11 training drills where in short I basically taught them technique in the first phase and in the second phase I let them develop technique and in the last phase they play a game.

Plan
Here is one of my training sessions.
Keep in mind this is u-11 first year kids.

Warm ups
Two Skills squares.

Finishing
1 v 1 Shooting Drill

Technique – Game Situation
2 v 2 continuous drill

Game
SSG - 5 v 5

Warm up

Purpose
Teach techniques under no pressure.
Then to add intesity by dribbling to second square perform skill and back again.

All players dribbling with the ball in the area.
Dynamic stretches with the ball.
10 on the ball
10 in between
10 knees on the ball
Sit on the ball 3 times.

Dribbling
Outside, Inside

Evasion Techniques
Step over
Fakes
Stud roll
Roulette

Turns
Inside
Outside
Stud Turn
Cruoff
Reverse step over
360 turns

Intensity
On coaches call players dribble to a "second square" performs a skill and then dribble back. This adds the pressure of speed which is one of the constraints of technique.


1 v 0 then progressing into a 1 v 1
1. Teach Shooting techniques
2. Develop Evasion techniques and finishing under limited pressure.

2 v 2 continous drill
1. Lets players develop dribbling and decision making(insight - when to dribble, when to pass) under limited pressure.
Simulates a counter attacking situation.


5 v 5 SSG
Promote creativity and mistakes.
(My biggest challenge was getting the kids to try new things in games some loved to so were to scared of failure).

You can get your coaching licence sibsidised by your club and your region federation. I got told that my club would pay 50% of my course while North Coast Football would pay the other 50%, problem is can take years for the right courses to come round to your areas if you live rural so you have to take the oppurtunity as it comes.

Also If you only have 9 players then you should ask the opposition coach if you could borrow a player or two and just take a forfeit, the players wont mind the official loss if the result on the day is a bit closer and hopefuly they will get a bit more fun out of it.

Hey Andy Im coaching U/12s next year wich will be their first year introducing full field/11 players/offsides etc.
Last season I followed the FFA Curiculum's 1-3-4-1 which this year will turn into the 1-4-3-3. Im doing my best to coach them into a short passing game which worked well but Id really appreciate some direction into the types of drills I should be doing to to show them Shape with and without the ball and switching transitions from attack and defend.

Also Ive been looking for a FFA endorsed coaching book for Under12s to Under 15s if you know any would be greatly apopreciated.

Basically if they forfeited the club gets fined. If they forfeit X amount of times they get punted. This happened a long time ago and I had no coaches licence although I was due to take a course. I had no idea what to do and wasn't going to let my limitations as a coach be part of their issue. I'd never been put in a situation like that before ever and had no clue how to deal with it. The best thing I could do was to resign the coaching role after 3 games and hand it over to a highly accredited coach who use to play for Man U. I knew what these little fellas were in for and were up against some metro rep teams which had come to association level to chase the C of C tournament, one team was from our own club and they pilfered most of my players from the year before. They ended up 100 against and 1 for under his care but at least they had the best coach available to guide them through their troubled year. They would have faired much worse If I stayed on.

The reason I asked Andy what he would do is because in a nutshell it was just grinding at me all these years and I figured in case others might face the same situation at least they can take heed of Andy's very helpful advice. It does still happen today so hopefully if someone finds themselves in this type of pickle the answer is on this topic.

So while your advice would have been great if it was allowed its not practicle. At least not in our association.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 28/10/2010 02:51:02 AM

Well thats where your association has it wrong these are just kids ffs we should be aiming at them having fun over anything especially winning. If I were you i would have taken it up the association and asked for a special exemption to ensure these kids dont leave the game from their poor decision to put them in that division.

Fully agree with you. So I did. My name has been mud ever since and the person who graded them in that position is still there and been there for over 20 years. Thats why we saw 2 teams in our age group/division with 100 ish against 1 or 2 for and another with 250 against and a couple for. So I dare not take up an appointed coaching role in that association. I only assist nowdays by giving skills sessions once fortnightly under the supervision of the appointed coach.

The idea for kids coaching is to make it fun, challenging, interesting, rewarding and no pressure at all. But when a coach and kids are put in that position there becomes a lot of new issues to deal with like the kids self esteem, ability to put into practice what they have learned. IE: Shooting practice doesnt even enter gameplay in a match. They would have copped a continual shellacking at school. These things shouldn't ever be part of a kids memories for playing football.

Hey tjwhalan, Andy gave some good variations of the 4-3-3 system which is very interesting. Basically for a 4-3-3 formation its when your team has the ball assume the 4-3-3 (Attack) formation. When your team does not have posession the two outer forwards drop back to the midfield outer wing positions forming a 4-5-1 (Defend). The 4-5-1 will also condense the midfield and re-inforce it. When you combine a sliding defence with the 4-5-1 (Defend) formation it makes very hard to break down. Then once posession is regained they can break into a 4-3-3 again.

There is also another variation of the 4-4-2 formation i've used which is very successful. This involves 4-4-2 when defending and 3-5-2 when attacking. In a nutshell you start 4-4-2 then once your team has posession and pushing into the opposition half the central defender pushes into the midfield to form a 3-5-2 (Attack). This re-enforces the midfield in attack and when used with sliding attack becomes effective by numbers. The second your team loses posession the central defender resumes his position forming 4 at the back thus re-forming a 4-4-2 (Defend).

As for drills search the internet for triangular drills. For formation changes walk throughs at training is probably your best best. Getting kids to hold and change formations isn't easy but persistance will pay off in the long run.

Hope this helps.







Edited by Aussiesrus: 28/10/2010 12:41:02 PM

Here's the FFA's presentation on the 433 system highlighting some of its variations

this should prove helpful

http://www.footballaustralia.com.au/site/_content/document/00001559-source.pdf

Have just put up a new blog walking you through a sample session I ran this year with my 12 year olds

it's here http://au.fourfourtwo.com/blogs.aspx?CIaBEID=2120

I fully understand the system I was just wondering what would be best to convey it to the kids, Im thinking about taking a whiteboard to training to show them at the end of training sessions, but really Im looking for drills that can be applied straight into the game like the triangle ones you suggested, but more just to simplify playing the system For example learning when to go backwards, learning when to commit to a tackle or drop off and learning which way to make runs etc. Which is where I think getting somesort of FFA 4-3-3 youth coaching booklet would help. I am confident I could make up plenty of decent drills for them and give them the direction needed but Im just keen to learn diffrent ways to coach.

And Yeah Andy my coach downloaded that 4-3-3 pdf file, its probably the best explanation of any formation you will find and I would reccomend it to anyone looking to coach/play or just understand it, but im looking for reccomended drills, SSGs etc with input form experienced coaches/players etc, just so I can ensure im teaching these kids to the best of my abilities.

Good Session what Ive been taught is to put the game in between the two shooting drills, this way you can base the session around the game like situation and then add a similar yet revised game at the end of the session.

Look forward to seeing more sessions, Thanks Andy

The only problem with this is that a coach can take his/her updated knowledge elsewhere after being subsidised by a club.

I don't take too much notice of FFA since I did a KNVB course. FFA are supposedly adopting many of the KNVB practices.

Essentially KNVB practice sessions comprise a four stage approach.

1. Identify the outstanding weakness from a comprehensive match analysis of the previous week's game. Organise a session to reinforce the skills needed in this particular flaw in the previous week's game.

It seems, according to Andy, that comprehensive match analyses are not approached until the B Licence in Australia. I've only completed an FFA Youth Licence so I don't really know what happens further down the track. Senior FFA Licence holders say what I did is more advanced than what they did. It seems like the KNVB Youth course tactical content extrapolates to tactical aspects of the FFA B Licence. There is only a an A Licence and a recent Professional Licence which are higher than the B Licence.

2. Organise 4 v 4 practice exercisies to improve this particular weakness.

3. Increase this to a 7 v 7 session for the same weakness.

4. Finish with the 11 v 11 scenario to work on the weakness.

From other sources KNVB claim one must touch the ball for 600-1000 times per session. In this session there are ways of teaching the aspects of 1.
Australian coaches don't seem to have been instructed in the incremental steps of how to teach techniques. Muscat, Tobin, Vidmar, Corica, Veart and Durakovic were unaware of this in the elite intake KNVB course the week before mine.

All the SSGs mentioned comprise what the Dutch are keen on - width and depth.

It certainly works. The first year I coached a rep side, they won the state title. That was with limited cattle too.


Edited by Decentric: 4/11/2010 11:17:05 PM

Interesting post for me this one.

When I coached suburban junior teams the general attitude of parents was supportive. They were pleased anyone was coaching their kids. It let them off the hook!

My rep team was different. I had a shocking group of parents. They had been factionalised for years. Some also expected the whole team to revolve around their child too.

Last season, my only coaching was with a senior reserves team for the premier league, the highest level in this state. I thoroughly enjoyed it. None of the difficult parents hassling. Also, senior players helped in a mentoring role with the communication of my concepts to younger players.

However, most coaches I know say they prefer to coach youth. They also find premiers and reserves think they know it all too.

Next year I'm in the embryonic stages of opening a big football school for a premier league club. It could be the biggest in the state. The notion was conceived by me, but the catalyst was a regional junior association president who sees problems in the lack of role models for junior players. it should also be a scenario where I don't have to deal with overly ambitious parents too.

It will be targeted for 10 -12 year olds.

A few senior players from the same club will be rostered on to participate in training sessions. A few of the club 13, 14, 15 year olds will too.

By doing the training ground technical exercises the seniors will see flaws in their own techniques, certainly in terms of two footedness. There will also be 4 v4 games with controls on the senior payers who will play in the same games.

The concept will be to conduct the sessions for players and send them back to clubs, schools, rep teams as better players.

The idea is also for any coaches who want to learn something ( often the parents who know nothing about football, but have been roped in to coach) to attend sessions.

Well if you have been coaching for that club for a number of years than I would say they owe it to you to show some faith in order to help improve their junior players.

How do you get invloved in rep teams by the way I would like to put my name in the for a north coast one in the next couple of years.

I was approached.

I certainly wasn't ready to rep coach from suburban club coaching, but a friend was a regional junior association president. He asked me to do it for a team in the region. They weren't happy with the previous rep coach of the team for attitudinal reasons.

He also knew I'd done the KNVB course a few months before. It resulted in fast tracking my knowledge after a week with some top line European coaches.

Having a FFA Senior Licence or C Licence would probably help for rep coaching. One would possibly ned to approach associations. If they don't know you, it makes it difficult.

I'm not sure I'd want to rep coach again. I like the knowledge I've gained being disseminated more widely than a 15-20 player group. A few are always likely to give the game away in their teens.

It is interesting that KNVB like the four stage module depicted in one of my aforementioned posts. I saw the Socceroos implement the 11 v 11 with a certain tactical point coached by Verbeek.

KNVB is not dogmatic at all. Far from it.

I like the 1 v 1 and even the 2 v 2s for the high number of touches players get. I've observed a state coach using a lot of it. Of course there is no width and depth. It is also a possibility in the first stage of the KNVB training module. In reality given it is often difficult to have enough players for an 11 v 11 session, it is possible to slip in the 1v1 stuff earlier on in the session.

I'm told that in the American college system they use a lot of 1 v 1 training. Players from Australia who play in the US college system, find it confronting when they are faced with it in the USA, particularly women.



Edited by Decentric: 5/11/2010 12:03:09 PM

I quite like the look of this session.

What is a roulette and a stud turn?

The only problem that I can see is that too many techniques may be imparted at once. This is particularly in light of the fact that the players have only played for a year.

Thanks Andy.

I was going to go into the permutations of the 4-3-3. Saved me the trouble.

I hadn't thought of the 4-2-3-1 advantages of 4 lines. This is based on some empirical coaching by you and others.

The other phemenon about 4-3-3 is that we have no system that has been well taught to the bulk of coaches in this country.

4-3-3 is used at a youth and senior system in Netherlands, Belgium and Denmark. Germany borrowed heavily on Dutch methodology some 8 years ago.

The Spanish and French use it at youth level. Some Brazilian clubs use it. The premise is that it is easier to play other systems like flat 4-4-2, if one has learnt a more complex system which is predicated on triangles/diamonds.

The Dutch teach the 4-3-3 very well, incrementally and systematically. We have had an ad hoc approach. Nobody has learnt a uniform system well in Australia. I have found it difficult teaching the backwards and forwards midfield triangles well to 11 and 12 year olds. Then again, I have seen one of the top women's teams in this state struggle with the triangle too. One of them is a former Matilda too!!

The earlier teams succeed at it the better for international level. Graham Arnold had great difficulty imparting 4-3-3 with its inherent triangles and diamonds to the Australian A league squad he used against Kuwait.

In the World Cup, the top three teams, Spain , Holland and Germany, all played 4-3-3/4-2-3-1. The naysayers say 4-2-3-1 will eventually be usurped by another possible system. True. They don't proffer a superior or alternative methodology though.

Edited by Decentric: 6/11/2010 07:50:43 AM

The 4-2-3-1 may be an answer to teaching players the 4-3-3 with the midfield triangle featuring two defensive screeners and one attacking midfielder.

Laying out the four lines may be easier. I will try this next time.

Basically I did the roulette because one of my players could do it and I wanted him to show the players and teach it to them + It was a bit of fun. It is the move Zidane was famous for. Stop/roll the ball twist body turn with studs of opp foot.

Stud turn is just putting your studs on the ball and rolling it the opp way. I think Matt Thompson did it this week in the lead up to his goal.

I never did all the techniques in one session I concentrated on a few each session until the last third of the season where I did most of them because they were familiar with them and would easily get bored if I didn't give them more techniques and make them do it quicker.

My first post on this section thanks Andy and may it continue.



Deccentric doesn't the Dutch Method also include "circuit" training where two three or four drills are set up with players rotating through the drills. ( eg four groups of four each group doing one of four drills rotating through.)

What I'm finding many junior coaches are having problems dealing with is content. What compounds that is the minimal time available for training. In Australia the kids traditionally train twice a week, while the Dutch would have three or four sessions over a longer season too.
What the Dutch realise and we are becomming accutely aware of is that in that short time the kids practise we as coaches need to maximise the players "effective" practise. This goes back to;



Of course thats why running and queing are diffinite no no's.
Thus the players have variety and I suppose "intensity" a word I hear more and more in relation to junior development.

As I was a hack in my playing days and getting a bit older too, I have limited ball skills so I downloaded 12 core player moves from youtube such as the Zidanes signature move.
Distributed them to the team and our warmup was practising the 12 moves and a couple extra that the kids could come up with. As the season wore on they would challenge themselves with combinig two or three moves.

The DVD became a great tool for visualisation and demostration.

If it is it wasn't taught in my course. Whether it is old practice, I'm not sure. I have Dutch Soccer Skills Books, 1 2 and 3. These types of drills are shown in these books. I was disappointed that there was no explicit KNVB handbook handed out.

There was no explicit technique instruction in my course. It seems that Andy did this in the C Licence.

The KNVB course I did was fundamentally tactical. I was told though I leant too far back when I passed the ball though. I corrected it under close tutelage. However, they were very explicit about how much technique should be taught at specific ages compared to game sense (insight).

The ball techniques I impart are derived from:
1. Matildas dribbling exercises.
2. Verseijen's exercises.
3. Dutch Soccer Skills three books.
4. Internet.
5. A little Coerver
6. Brazilian Soccer Schools dribbling and turning techniques ( I can do most of them). They are pretty difficult, but I can't for the life of me do the elastic properly. It is very frustrating, because it is the technique I see used most often and very sucessfully in games apart from the Brazilian step overs. I've tried to do the elastic for years. I'm still unable to do it, yet alone teach it.
7. A variety of coaching instruction books.



Edited by Decentric: 6/11/2010 07:56:40 AM

I have also taught karate.

I sometimes apply the teaching of karate technique methodology to football. Here are some sequential steps.

1. Try the technique very slowly. This usually works.

2. Speed it up.

3. Do it at higher speed with the head up.

3. Try the technique against an opponent, but the opponent should be pretty passive (not trying to win the ball, but be a slow moving obstacle).

4. Try the technique repetitively against a more active defender.

5. Try the technique changing speeds in the one run against a defender and try to keep the head up.

Edited by Decentric: 6/11/2010 08:07:21 AM

Don't know how I missed this one but a good read.

http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/news/1030331/Adelaide-leads-the-way

Adelaide Case Study PDF

i asked myself the same question but apparently this is the first time it's been made public. It's a great read. I wish the club had released it last season through our dark year.. it's really positive and assuring to see this sort of stuff happening in the backend.

I would agree with that however I would do all of the above basically in one session due to:
a) Kids would get bored
b) Most teams only train twice a week.

So basically:
Warm up: 1,2,3
Phase 2: 4,5,6

And the last and probably most important point would be trying the technique in a GAME which would be in my final phase.

Interesting replies Decentric. Best of luck with your new "BIG" football school. Sounds very exciting.

On the topic of the 4-3-3 system which is most interesting I see there are many formation options. I'm an old school lad and not a big fan of the 4-3-3 system however I can see the benefits.

My personal choice of formations is to use a 4-4-2 with a roving forward central defender. IE: When we are on the attack in their half the central defender pushes forward forming a 3-5-2 thus also forming the triangles. When we are defending in own half this causes the central defender to make sure he has dropped backed into the 4-4-2 position. This has advantages over the 4-3-3 in that if we look at the flaws associated with the 4-4-2 in a standard attack pattern the reverse is applicable and the 4-3-3 becomes flawed in the 4-4-2 defensive mode.

I've found the above to be very successful especially when teams have struggled with standard 4-3-3 and standard 4-4-2.

I see so you attack in a 3-5-2 however defend in a 4-4-2.

My only personal issue with that is that your fullbacks aren't allowed to get forward which is something I personally like fullbacks doing.

The other issue I can see is against a 4-3-3 you are either going to have 3 defenders marking 1 striker or 3 defenders marking 3 forwards. Either way I would suggest that it is a lose lose situation.

However against a standard 4-4-2 which is probably what you would come up against mainly in Australia I could see this formation dominating.
Reasons:
- You would have 3 defenders against 2 strikers to protect counter attacks.
- You would have an extra man in midfield when attacking allowing your 4 across the middle to be able to push up a lot more (basically all four could attack and you could leave the 3 defenders and 1 holding in front of them).

Maybe something you could look at if you like this system is the way Mexico play a similar system. Because they mainly come up against teams with one striker they play:

3-4-3 (5-4-1) when defending and when attacking 2-5-3 (4-3-3) depends how you want to look at it. (Their captian Marquez plays that central defender pushing on).

This system allows 2 central defenders to be marking 1 striker which I think is more desirable situation.

Well it doesn't have to be limited to the central defender to push forward. It really depends which side of the park the ball is on. Left or right defender can move into an attacking position if the ball is right or left.

Most games are won or lost in the midfield. With defenders pushing forward to form up 5 across the middle this gives the numbers advantage in most cases except the 4-3-3 when the two wingers drop back to mids forming up a 4-5-1 which means equal mids. However the amount of work required by wingers to automatically drop back into a 4-5-1 sees them tire very quickly (AKA Harry Kewell's complaint of the 4-3-3). The 4-4-2 forming up to 3-5-2 only requires one player to move forward and any defender can interchange into the 3-5-2 attack formation which spreads the workload around.

Another key tactic is for players to slide across the park in the mids stacking the area of the ball and giving players more options. This usually give a total numbers advantage in any one given area.

So compared to a 3-5-2 attack and 4-4-2 defence,
4-3-3 has less mids, 3-4-3 has less mids, 4-5-1 has equal mids but requires heavy workload from wingers, 5-4-1 also requires heavy workload from players but has the overall defensive advantage. 2-5-3 when attacking is susceptible to counters.

Interesting discussion FMVS and food for thought, Thanks for your feedback.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 20/11/2010 09:05:25 AM

what is the FFA Skilleroos program?

http://theworldgame.sbs.com.au/australia/news/1034587/FFA-s-plan-to-win-Qatar-2022



Edited by krones3: 5/12/2010 08:51:53 AM

This could be a very effective tactic in competitive senior sides but I would not reccomend using this with any youth teams purely because it is too one dimensional in attacking straight down the middle.
The problem with Australia is we don't produce enough wingers and our young fullbacks, because they are being taught at a young age by people who dont understand the game that they should always back. That is what this tactic is promoting defensive fullbacks and wingers, which is fine if thats what you want but our national curriculum clearly states otherwise. The two fullbacks in attack are essentially central defenders and because of their defensive duties one failed dribble by a winger could result in an easy counter attack which could kill the childs confidence and stop him becoming a special no fear type winger that we all love to see.

Some good points have been made in this discussion.

With juniors (even seniors) it is preferable to play a shape with few variations well. This is opposed to implementing a number of variations on a formation poorly. A formation is only effective as long as a team keeps its shape. If a team it loses it, it becomes ineffective.

Correct distancing between, and within, the lines is paramount.

Various coaches have spoken about using complex variations of shapes in junior/youth teams. Often when one observes them in practice, the shapes can be difficult to decipher.

When the Tasmanian team played the Central Coast Mariners in the middle of the year, they lost their shape for extended periods in the first half. It was during its loss of shape periods that Tasmania suffered its least effective passages of the match.

Edited by Decentric: 5/12/2010 11:37:53 PM

For professional teams it is useful for teams to change from a 4-3-3 with the forwards triangle in midfield, to a 2-5-3 in attack.

Another variation of a 4-2-3-1 in defence is becoming a 3-3-3-1 in attack. Professional teams are extremely fit and can adapt these variations.

Once amateur players start varying positions in the lines, depending on the main moments of play, ie when a team is in possession or not in possession, it is very difficult for amateur players to sustain the physical effort. This is particularly true on big pitches.

In the 4-3-3 with the backwards and forwards triangles, it really condenses midfield space.

The 4-5-1 doesn't place the same workload on wingers, as the wing backs in the 3-5-2. The onus on them is to almost cover three lines as opposed to the two wingers covering two in the 4-5-1.

Totally agree with your view regarding juniors. Keeping it simple with minimal formation changes gives the juniors a concrete block to work with. Then as they progress in years formation adaptations can be slowly introduced always using the original formation for reference in case it goes pear shaped. It's when complex formations are attempted the whole shape can become a mess.

Strangely enough with seniors keeping it simple is also the best option. It really depends on the level of players (and how bright they are) a coach is working with and the levels of fitness of his players.

As a former player who's now way past his playing day's I watch today kids from under 10's through to over 45's at various levels of the game and note some interesting observations.

Generally teams between,

10-14's tend to stick with the same formation throughout the match rotating players.

15-18's often start a formation but the formation changes by coaches replacing say a defender with mid or mid with attacker which changes the formation.

19-34's Will start a formation but by this age they are experienced enough to drop back or push forward changing formations constantly. This is when players are physically at their peak and the coach doesn't have to do the thinking for them.

35-45's+ This is where experience really shows and players tend to use positional play rather than the physical formation changes. The less physical work they do the better.

So just what is the best formation?

I really think it depends on the age group a coach is dealing with and the abilities of the players. No point choosing hard physical formations for the old boys and no point using complex formations for young kids. The best formation is the one that best suits your team you are coaching. If your team is winning a few games and enjoying themselves then your on the right path to the right formation. Keep it simple but slightly challenging.

Generally by half time a coach will know whether a formation change is required in accordance with areas that need assistance.

Edited by Aussiesrus: 13/12/2010 10:10:22 AM

http://www.footballaustralia.com.au/site/_content/document/00001565-source.pdf

Skillaroos is the name for the group of Under 13's that will be selected as part of the Skill Acquisition Program for each of the state bodies.

The SAP is going to be broken into two age groups - Phase 1 (9-11), and Phase 2 (12).

Essentially it'll be a group of kids who get year round Skills training from a Skill instructor 2 or 3 times a week and will replace the state U13 team.

Anyone in the Skillaroos won't be able to play winter football, and during Summer (VCL in vic) will have 1 session with a Skill Instructor, and 2 with their VCL who hopefully will be using the SAP as a model for their training sessions.

There was a presentation on this in Melbourne last night - so check your local state bodies about when they will be running their presentations / launches.

What did you think of the presentation forbze?

well, if we talk about the performance then france and brazil really done a good job in getting the world cup but may be this time they are out of luck or may be leading to the different path..


http://www.linkedin.com/answers/browse/marketing-sales/sales/lead-generation/MAR_SLS_LGN

I couldn't be bothered to go through all the posts but i done the olds Senior Licence. The exemption that i got was i could go straight to the Youth licence without doing grassroots or junior. It was the case when i done mine that the Youth Licence was the was the best you could hope to start at. I played super league and thought i was hard done by but i even had Paul Wade in my Youth licence! so no further exemptions (might have changed now?).

As for how the 4-3-3 compare to other formations, the 4-3-3 is very much about closing space when defending and requires players of i high technical knowledge as in players who can read a game, follow instructions and know where to be in a certain scenario. This formation is mainly played in zones or zonal when defending to cut out options and potential next pass closest to the ball.

Attacking wise it requires fast ball movement, triangles to keep options at all times but in my opinion most importantly it requires supporting play. One of the most technical Dutch coaches is/was Foppe De Hann. His philosophy was to play the ball as direct as possible, support the ball carrier and to always believe that the will to win has to be greater than the fear of losing.

Now with the direct play (and there is a difference between direct and long ball) the 2 wide men of the front 3 should hug the line and give the option of the direct pass from midfield or defence. When this happens the player in the # 10 role should be reading this pass and offer the option of a knock down from the wide player, then look to play the ball to the over lapping wing back. How it compares to other formations such as a 4-4-2 really depends on the players and the players ability to understand how to play the 4-3-3. When played well the 4-3-3 is very entertaining and hard to stop.

Without knowing what sort of knowlege the people on here have, i would strongly suggest watching games from the Eredivisie (only the better teams) and see how their patterns of play are.

Good Luck guys hope you find this all helpful and remember everything you learn or see are guidelines its up to you to implement them with your own stle and flavour.

Sorry - I only just saw this now...

I thought it was pretty much what it was going to be. It's a program that's been needed for a while - but, It's not exactly ground breaking stuff. I remember doing similar training when I was 8 or 9 when I was growing up in the UK. It's definitely good to have a standardised approach to coaching skills to youngsters tho. Can see it having a positive impact.

Will also be good to put pressure on some of the "money making" set-up's. I coach at an academy in Melb. The kids aged 8-12 train 6 sessions a week, and 12 - 18 train 7 sessions a week. Will be interested to see how we can apply the SAP to our coaching.




Edited by forbze: 28/12/2010 12:18:01 AM