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MINDSHAKCLE CORP.
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sugoibaka wrote:MINDSHAKCLE CORP. wrote:How were they shafted? They were simply anachronisms that didn't fit the future path. It's fairly obvious even to a non-NSL follower with a cursory knowledge of what happened. But that whole subject has been done to death here and elsewhere, so I don't imagine you being swayed from your stance. Quote:There must be a way that these clubs can meaningfully engage with the new order. Wouldn't mergers between some of the old clubs, or these clubs being structural investors in brand new entities be the best option? They cannot remain ethnically identified clubs in teh new order, that much is evident and anyone who thinks otherwise is engaging in delusion. But they MUST be afforded the opportunity of active engagement They can contribute cash, facilities and infrastructure/resources developed over decades, but not actually participate without being emasculated? Yeah, right.... Quote: - to openly and transparently put their cases forward as to why they should be a part of future football. I'm not sure other than being financially viable and up to it in an administrative sense that they have anything they need to prove. Why do they need to be cleansed of their ethnic origins? Edited by sugoibaka: 24/11/2010 05:42:25 PM Seriously. I don't even know where to start with this post. Your arguments are so circular, they are a phenomenon of linguistc and argumentative geometry. Its not the origins they need to "cleanse" (your word, not mine)its their current day, here and now relevance that they need to re-adjust, and that's why I mentioned mergers and invstment in new entities. I don't care about origins, I care about what the clubs mean NOW. And what the clubs mean now, is not what's written in their constitutions, not what the directors think they mean, not what their websites claim them to be, not even what their apostolic fans want them to be - its what the communities at large perceive them to be. Like any brand their existence and meaning rest with the market. And right now they remain an anachronism - misplaced entities out of kilter with the movement of the times. I mention things like mergers and new investments because these things give the clubs the platform to reinvigorate, to move forward, to regain amd maintain relevance outside of their closed and increasingly dwindling cohorts of fans. Its not ideal for these clubs I understand. But really, do you honestly believe that they have a choice long term? To some, the idea of a merger to create a new, reinvigorated entity (which by nature is expansive and more more inclusive) seems abhorrent. And there in lies the problem. That the very idea of a coming together, the very idea of pluralising what is singular, can be so distasteful to some, says much about how undedicated some people really are to the growth of football in the mainstream.
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sydneycroatia58
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I don't get how people can seriously suggest some of the old NSL clubs merging with rivals. Can't imagine any club that's been around for 50+ years would let that happen.
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sugoibaka
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MINDSHAKCLE CORP. wrote:How were they shafted? They were simply anachronisms that didn't fit the future path. It's fairly obvious even to a non-NSL follower with a cursory knowledge of what happened. But that whole subject has been done to death here and elsewhere, so I don't imagine you being swayed from your stance. Quote:There must be a way that these clubs can meaningfully engage with the new order. Wouldn't mergers between some of the old clubs, or these clubs being structural investors in brand new entities be the best option? They cannot remain ethnically identified clubs in teh new order, that much is evident and anyone who thinks otherwise is engaging in delusion. But they MUST be afforded the opportunity of active engagement They can contribute cash, facilities and infrastructure/resources developed over decades, but not actually participate without being emasculated? Yeah, right.... Quote: - to openly and transparently put their cases forward as to why they should be a part of future football. I'm not sure other than being financially viable and up to it in an administrative sense that they have anything they need to prove. Why do they need to be cleansed of their ethnic origins? Edited by sugoibaka: 24/11/2010 05:42:25 PM
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notorganic
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chris wrote: I'll try to be inspirationalTake a good look at the above picture Yep its a football Look a little closer....guess what it's round Look even closer - and you will see many panels stitched together and there you have it.....the finished product - a nice round football In Australia each panel is representing a section of our football community in this country stitched together to provide the end product - a beautiful football - nice and round By ignoring or downgrading ethnic clubs in this country is like peeling a panel off the football for each community that gets relegated and the game will never be completely rounded FFV Plans are to strip football of its panels - to introduce a new shape and to implement an AFL System Edited by chris: 24/11/2010 01:09:54 AM =d> =d> =d>
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MINDSHAKCLE CORP.
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sugoibaka wrote:GloryPerth wrote:But on the latter, then again, I kind of think in my kind of 'new convert' kind of way, that why can't the Knights, South Melbourne fans and co, be ALSO Victory or Heart fans - why can't they be both? I know plenty of Victory fans who are also fans of VPL clubs, nothing new here. But one shouldn't be surprised that (die hard) fans of former NSL clubs haven't jumped on board Victory or Heart, after the shafting they got at the commencement of the new league. How were they shafted? They were simply anachronisms that didn't fit the future path. You're right in supposition that the perception of being shafted remains strong in a select few. I have no problem with this. It's unfortunate for them, but they make up the inevitable detritus that is a necessary part of change. That said, i'd be very concerned about relegating the old clubs down the hierarchy even further. These clubs remain an elemental part of Australian football. To undercut them would be to the detriment of the grassroots and remove much of the authenticity that is painfully lacking in our game. There must be a way that these clubs can meaningfully engage with the new order. Wouldn't mergers between some of the old clubs, or these clubs being structural investors in brand new entities be the best option? They cannot remain ethnically identified clubs in teh new order, that much is evident and anyone who thinks otherwise is engaging in delusion. But they MUST be afforded the opportunity of active engagement - to openly and transparently put their cases forward as to why they should be a part of future football.
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danp638
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Arthur wrote:
Very interesting but why has this been all revealed only since NSWFA decided to move their premier competition to Summer?
Was this going to be in secret?
Is the FFA administration in a bunker or seige mentality? Now re-active rather than pro-active?
Well the FFV will be forwarding their Zone Competition model should be a whole lot of laughs.
Can't say i agree with that, the FFA can't control what FNSW goes around telling the media. I'd say this review was waiting to be done until after the FFA charter was signed, because before that day, the states had no reason to have to abide by the reviews findings, say for example if it does find that for football development it would be best for the state leagues to play over winter, if FNSW didnt want to change back from summer then there was no way the FFA could force them too, now FNSW would be breaking its signed charter agreement, and gives some ammunition to the FFA to get things done. The other reason i think it was anounced this week is due to the FFA doing the information gathering with the media, HAL clubs CEO's & state bodies last week, whilst it was not directly related to this perhaps certain aspects that say affected the FFA cup format were discussed and these opinions can then be forwarded to the NCR panel. Anyway you are right ... the FFA are re-active, I just get the feeling not this time.
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chris
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I'll try to be inspirationalTake a good look at the above picture Yep its a football Look a little closer....guess what it's round Look even closer - and you will see many panels stitched together and there you have it.....the finished product - a nice round football In Australia each panel is representing a section of our football community in this country stitched together to provide the end product - a beautiful football - nice and round By ignoring or downgrading ethnic clubs in this country is like peeling a panel off the football for each community that gets relegated and the game will never be completely rounded FFV Plans are to strip football of its panels - to introduce a new shape and to implement an AFL System Edited by chris: 24/11/2010 01:09:54 AM
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davidsomethingelse
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 My contribution to this argument... :P
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skeptic
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macktheknife wrote:
Yeah, I'm a massive racist after spending 25 years in Fairfield :roll:
The reason I dislike ethnic clubs is because they split apart the community.
There's no reason that Fairfield couldn't have a club that brings together everyone, instead of splitting it all apart down ethnic lines.
If you don't like being accused of being a duck, then don't look like a duck, act like a duck, quack like a duck, and don't keep putting your big webbed feet in your even larger billed mouth. The problem with numbskulls like yourself is the lack of common sense, intelligence and decency to realise why people might take offence to your quacking.
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RedEyeRob
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Arthur wrote:Maybe in Arkansas? :lol: pretty much anywhere through middle America.... but not Glasgow.
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Arthur
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Maybe in Arkansas?
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RedEyeRob
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Arthur wrote:RedEyeRob wrote:Arthur wrote:macktheknife wrote:
Yeah, I'm a massive racist after spending 25 years in Fairfield :roll:
The reason I dislike ethnic clubs is because they split apart the community.
There's no reason that Fairfield couldn't have a club that brings together everyone, instead of splitting it all apart down ethnic lines.
Or any other lines religious for example. Glasgow rangers and Glasgow Celtic should amalgamate and become Glasgow United and stop splitting support along religious lines. And I'm sure we can go on and find a lot of clubs around the world that have split cities on religious, class or ethnic lines. The Glasgow rivalry is a great one - but the beauty here is at least they have the population base to support either team. Wikipedia says there is only 600K in Glasgow or 1.2Mill in the greater Glasgow area and only 5Mil in Scotland. So I think its got nothing to do with Population base rather it is cultural and probably religious rivalry too. The rivalry is without a doubt a religiously motivated one. You've got Celtic who are Irish Roman Catholic and support the Irish Republican Army wing who hate: • Scots • Protestants • North Ireland Protestants • The British Monarchy • Remembrance Day • The US And I think somewhere in that long list they manage to find a small amount of time to hate a football team called Glasgow Rangers ;) :lol: . Of course, it's all vice-versa too. But what i'm implying is that there are enough Catholics and Protestants to make it work. If you threw in a 3rd club backed by a right wing, U.S. Evangelical Pentecostal, would it work?
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Arthur
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RedEyeRob wrote:Arthur wrote:macktheknife wrote:
Yeah, I'm a massive racist after spending 25 years in Fairfield :roll:
The reason I dislike ethnic clubs is because they split apart the community.
There's no reason that Fairfield couldn't have a club that brings together everyone, instead of splitting it all apart down ethnic lines.
Or any other lines religious for example. Glasgow rangers and Glasgow Celtic should amalgamate and become Glasgow United and stop splitting support along religious lines. And I'm sure we can go on and find a lot of clubs around the world that have split cities on religious, class or ethnic lines. The Glasgow rivalry is a great one - but the beauty here is at least they have the population base to support either team. Wikipedia says there is only 600K in Glasgow or 1.2Mill in the greater Glasgow area and only 5Mil in Scotland. So I think its got nothing to do with Population base rather it is cultural and probably religious rivalry too.
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RedEyeRob
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+1 to Aussiesrus' comment.
And back on topic, i have been informed by a contact that the member clubs of the SA Super League have approached the FFSA that they want to appoint and fund a representive of their choosing to sit at the FFSA Board to operate and run the league - independent of the FFSA. They too are sick of the shit being dished out by them... so you Victorians are not alone.
Hopefully today's news about the FFA reviewing the state leage system will bring positive results. Hopefully.
Edited by redeyerob: 23/11/2010 10:58:20 PM
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RedEyeRob
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Arthur wrote:macktheknife wrote:
Yeah, I'm a massive racist after spending 25 years in Fairfield :roll:
The reason I dislike ethnic clubs is because they split apart the community.
There's no reason that Fairfield couldn't have a club that brings together everyone, instead of splitting it all apart down ethnic lines.
Or any other lines religious for example. Glasgow rangers and Glasgow Celtic should amalgamate and become Glasgow United and stop splitting support along religious lines. And I'm sure we can go on and find a lot of clubs around the world that have split cities on religious, class or ethnic lines. The Glasgow rivalry is a great one - but the beauty here is at least they have the population base to support either team.
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RedEyeRob
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macktheknife wrote:Yeah, I'm a massive racist after spending 25 years in Fairfield :roll:
Whether you were taking the piss or not, i just went along with your comment. macktheknife wrote:
There's no reason that Fairfield couldn't have a club that brings together everyone, instead of splitting it all apart down ethnic lines.
Off topic here, but for the record, i wish the FFA would can this "greater western sydney" idea of Ian Rowden that allegedly represents the North, South and West. Blacktown, Parramatta, Fairfield etc... they should have their own clubs introduced into a national second tier. These areas each have populations similar to Townsville, Gosford & Gold Coast, and it's football heartland. Maybe in Fairfields case, there are too many teams and not enough interest to properly sustain and support them. Some consolidation would be nice (Sydney Utd, Marconi) as it leverages existing infrastructure + introduce a community owned model. Probably wishful thinking.
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Aussiesrus
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Geez fellas this topic appears to have reduced to a form of ethnic background arguements.
The bottomline is Australia is one but we are many of many different backgrounds. That's what makes Australia such a fantastic and unique country. It doesn't matter what a persons background is as long they call Australia home we are ALL Australians. Brothers and Sisters standing united to make this proud country what it is today.
Put aside your petty ethnic based arguements and start thinking about "We" as in Aussie brothers and sisters that bleed green and gold from our veins. There is no "Us" or "Them" only "We".
Grow beyond what divides and think about what unites.
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GDeathe
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Minimalistix wrote:If it's zonal comprised of State League Clubs, what happens in Western Sydney where Bonnyrigg, Sydney United and Marconi are all a few km's away from each other? Marconi moves to Ctown = Macarthur Stallions SU to be the "central west sydney" team at the expense of bankstown and melita BWE becomes the "south west" team Blacktown moves to CUA
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Arthur
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macktheknife wrote:
Yeah, I'm a massive racist after spending 25 years in Fairfield :roll:
The reason I dislike ethnic clubs is because they split apart the community.
There's no reason that Fairfield couldn't have a club that brings together everyone, instead of splitting it all apart down ethnic lines.
Or any other lines religious for example. Glasgow rangers and Glasgow Celtic should amalgamate and become Glasgow United and stop splitting support along religious lines. And I'm sure we can go on and find a lot of clubs around the world that have split cities on religious, class or ethnic lines.
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GDeathe
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lol at FFV and FNSW trying to pre-empt the evaluation when we all know the future is Queensland
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macktheknife
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RedEyeRob wrote:skeptic wrote:I'm afraid you're handing out rubber cheques. So, the descendants of a white immigrant from a foreign country have the privilege of forgoing their ethnicity, be it British Anglo Celt, Germanic Anglo Saxon ect., for a new classification, 'Ethnically Australian', but those descendants of the non anglo immigrants, many of whom also immigrated in the first 50 years of colonisation, cannot forego their ethnicity and be classified as 'ethnically Australian'? That a Brit or Germanic doesn't remain an ethnic Brit and Germanic, but the Chinese or Italian remains ethnic Chinese and Italian, is logic beyond my limited understanding. You're posted definition the term 'ethnically Australian' is actually the definitive term for 'Anglo Australian'. In claiming an exclusivity for Anglo Australians, you've not only removed all other immigrant descendants, but also the only actual 'Ethnic Australian', Australians. And I'm afraid they aren't white fellas, as much as that might be unpalatable to your personal vision. I tell you what would be really funny: if Sydney Rovers were financially rescued by a 'non-white' race! I think he'd have a heart attack :oops: :oops: Yeah, I'm a massive racist after spending 25 years in Fairfield :roll: The reason I dislike ethnic clubs is because they split apart the community. There's no reason that Fairfield couldn't have a club that brings together everyone, instead of splitting it all apart down ethnic lines.
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Arthur
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Quote:
FFA Media Release: FFA announces National Competition Review
23.11.10 13:46
Football Federation Australia (FFA) today announced a major initiative aimed at aligning all levels of competition within the game for the first time.
A National Competition Review (NCR) has been launched to look at all aspects of the competitions conducted by FFA, the Member Federations and State League Clubs around Australia.
FFA Chief Executive Officer Ben Buckley said the NCR would be a forum to push greater co-operation among all stakeholders for the betterment of competitive football and football development.
“This is a great opportunity to get the entire competitive football community working together for the best outcome for all,” Buckley said.
“We have a huge number of participants in so many fantastic competitions and the challenge for us is to get them structured so that there are defined pathways for junior and senior footballers of all levels.
“Football will only reach its full potential when all of the stakeholders in the game are pushing in the same direction.
“Once we get it right we will be able to better underpin the Hyundai A-League, lay the foundation for a National Cup Competition and potentially for a future second tier competition framework below the Hyundai A-League.”
The NCR will be conducted at the same time as the A-League strategic review and will involve representatives of the Member Federations, State League Clubs and the FFA football development and Hyundai A-League departments.
The terms of reference includes reviewing:
- the current Member Federation (MF) competition structures from the top State League competition to the Under 12 level,
- proposals of preferred models from MFs covering competition, development, financial aspects, to seek the best option for a second tier national competition (underpinning the Hyundai A-League) and include criteria for leagues to adopt
- Financial Analysis of models
The NCR will report on the current structure, produce a discussion paper and recommendations by late February, 2011.
Very interesting but why has this been all revealed only since NSWFA decided to move their premier competition to Summer? Was this going to be in secret? Is the FFA administration in a bunker or seige mentality? Now re-active rather than pro-active? Well the FFV will be forwarding their Zone Competition model should be a whole lot of laughs.
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Arthur
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Minimalistix wrote:If it's zonal comprised of State League Clubs, what happens in Western Sydney where Bonnyrigg, Sydney United and Marconi are all a few km's away from each other? Then all those clubs play in the zone (you would be mor familiar with district) competition. The best players would in Summer be selected to represent the Zone team/Club which would play in the zone competition. All the clubs in the zone would have the oppurtunity to invest in ownership of the Zone Club. Any profits would be theirs.
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danp638
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Minimalistix wrote:If it's zonal comprised of State League Clubs, what happens in Western Sydney where Bonnyrigg, Sydney United and Marconi are all a few km's away from each other? Who's to say they wold all be in the state league, say maybe, sydney united & marconi make the new 2nd tier mentioned in the press release, that would leave the west to be represented by other teams, hell the report may actually call for some clubs to merge, i don't know i only know as much as the press release reveals, its all guess work from then on. There is nothing in the NCR info that suggests that a zonal system would be the model for the state leagues or in fact the 2nd tier, but i would assume that if the FFV are trying to push ahead with it, then as a stakeholder and MA they would probably raise that as their preferred system.
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Minimalistix
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If it's zonal comprised of State League Clubs, what happens in Western Sydney where Bonnyrigg, Sydney United and Marconi are all a few km's away from each other?
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danp638
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Quote:FFA Media Release: FFA announces National Competition Review 23.11.10 13:46 http://www.footballnsw.com.au/index.php?id=17&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=4592&tx_ttnews[backPid]=389&cHash=f3b9f44b6fFootball Federation Australia (FFA) today announced a major initiative aimed at aligning all levels of competition within the game for the first time. A National Competition Review (NCR) has been launched to look at all aspects of the competitions conducted by FFA, the Member Federations and State League Clubs around Australia. FFA Chief Executive Officer Ben Buckley said the NCR would be a forum to push greater co-operation among all stakeholders for the betterment of competitive football and football development. “This is a great opportunity to get the entire competitive football community working together for the best outcome for all,” Buckley said. “We have a huge number of participants in so many fantastic competitions and the challenge for us is to get them structured so that there are defined pathways for junior and senior footballers of all levels. “Football will only reach its full potential when all of the stakeholders in the game are pushing in the same direction. “Once we get it right we will be able to better underpin the Hyundai A-League, lay the foundation for a National Cup Competition and potentially for a future second tier competition framework below the Hyundai A-League.” The NCR will be conducted at the same time as the A-League strategic review and will involve representatives of the Member Federations, State League Clubs and the FFA football development and Hyundai A-League departments. The terms of reference includes reviewing: - the current Member Federation (MF) competition structures from the top State League competition to the Under 12 level, - proposals of preferred models from MFs covering competition, development, financial aspects, to seek the best option for a second tier national competition (underpinning the Hyundai A-League) and include criteria for leagues to adopt - Financial Analysis of models The NCR will report on the current structure, produce a discussion paper and recommendations by late February, 2011. Might explain why they are thinking of a zonal style state league, may believe that the stronger state league clubs would be pressing hard to make up that second tier, also explains the FFA's reaction to the NSWPL wanting to make its own changes before the review is conducted.
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skeptic
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Glory, my attitude has little to do with football. It's the ongoing and tiresome fear-mongering I've watched since I was a young kid. Keeping people in their place,for want of a better description. And I too fell for it till old enough to think independently of an accepted community mindset.
From the time of going to primary school with the kids of Polish refugees that had moved into the community from their initial local refugee camp, and the not to be trusted, exclusion attitude towards those 'New Australians', I never quite understood at the time why I was told to not play with those kids and the "They're just different from us!" reason given.
And as young teen, the council by-laws permitting official segregation of 'Black Fellas' from the white community, town facilities, shops and schools. Officially outlawed by governments since the early 70's, but when a town can still have a 50/50% white/Murri population and the local school has 98% Murri students, (not a guess or assumption, but actual figures)it still exists, but now subtle. The majority of the white kids bus travel to a regional centre or sent to boarding school.
From the continued 'Wog' bashing through to the 'Being overrun with Asians' years, all the way up to the 'Muslims want to take over Australia with Sharia Law' and the enhanced rhetoric of the 'Stop The Boats' in more recent times, i've heard it ad nauseum and it doesn't get any less tiresome.
You think there may be an historical trend implying a less than rational reaction towards those perceived 'different'? Personally, I know there is. As I said, it has little to do with football, other than an often displayed reminder that the above described 'attitude' will continue to be practised and denied in the one breath. By George, we have come a long way over the years, haven't we?
Edited by skeptic: 23/11/2010 12:01:13 PM
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RedEyeRob
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skeptic wrote:I'm afraid you're handing out rubber cheques. So, the descendants of a white immigrant from a foreign country have the privilege of forgoing their ethnicity, be it British Anglo Celt, Germanic Anglo Saxon ect., for a new classification, 'Ethnically Australian', but those descendants of the non anglo immigrants, many of whom also immigrated in the first 50 years of colonisation, cannot forego their ethnicity and be classified as 'ethnically Australian'? That a Brit or Germanic doesn't remain an ethnic Brit and Germanic, but the Chinese or Italian remains ethnic Chinese and Italian, is logic beyond my limited understanding. You're posted definition the term 'ethnically Australian' is actually the definitive term for 'Anglo Australian'. In claiming an exclusivity for Anglo Australians, you've not only removed all other immigrant descendants, but also the only actual 'Ethnic Australian', Australians. And I'm afraid they aren't white fellas, as much as that might be unpalatable to your personal vision. I tell you what would be really funny: if Sydney Rovers were financially rescued by a 'non-white' race! I think he'd have a heart attack :oops: :oops:
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sugoibaka
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skeptic wrote:I'm afraid you're handing out rubber cheques.
So, the descendants of a white immigrant from a foreign country have the privilege of forgoing their ethnicity, be it British Anglo Celt, Germanic Anglo Saxon ect., for a new classification, 'Ethnically Australian', but those descendants of the non anglo immigrants, many of whom also immigrated in the first 50 years of colonisation, cannot forego their ethnicity and be classified as 'ethnically Australian'? That a Brit or Germanic doesn't remain an ethnic Brit and Germanic, but the Chinese or Italian remains ethnic Chinese and Italian, is logic beyond my limited understanding.
You're posted definition the term 'ethnically Australian' is actually the definitive term for 'Anglo Australian'. In claiming an exclusivity for Anglo Australians, you've not only removed all other immigrant descendants, but also the only actual 'Ethnic Australian', Australians. And I'm afraid they aren't white fellas, as much as that might be unpalatable to your personal vision. Great post.
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skeptic
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I'm afraid you're handing out rubber cheques. So, the descendants of a white immigrant from a foreign country have the privilege of forgoing their ethnicity, be it British Anglo Celt, Germanic Anglo Saxon ect., for a new classification, 'Ethnically Australian', but those descendants of the non anglo immigrants, many of whom also immigrated in the first 50 years of colonisation, cannot forego their ethnicity and be classified as 'ethnically Australian'? That a Brit or Germanic doesn't remain an ethnic Brit and Germanic, but the Chinese or Italian remains ethnic Chinese and Italian, is logic beyond my limited understanding. You're posted definition the term 'ethnically Australian' is actually the definitive term for 'Anglo Australian'. In claiming an exclusivity for Anglo Australians, you've not only removed all other immigrant descendants, but also the only actual 'Ethnic Australian', Australians. And I'm afraid they aren't white fellas, as much as that might be unpalatable to your personal vision.
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