AH so it is East Richmond, Malvern were playing a very understrenght team but in saying that they were still very ordinary.

South Springvale have recruited well and have bascially already qualified, Malvern LOSE to Mannigham LOL funnist thing ever, were understrengh but still a decent under 13's side could beat those guys.

Sorry about the late replies was on holidays and only had mobile to read [takes too long to reply using it].

Not sure what you're trying to say here, firstly i didn’t suggest a name change, identity is much more than a name, but suggesting nothing can be done to grow the sport is obviously wrong the a-league being a simple example of that. The game should *always* try to grow, not give up.


None of this was brought up by me, you suggested and replied to it yourself i.e. it’s not related to the initial point which was why doesn’t playing in a mono-ethnic club strengthen local bonds, it’s just a lame attempt at deflecting. Sad you need to resort to that.


It’s probably lost on you, but i was actually emphasising the need for more diversity rather than excluding any one group.



You seem to be wanting to grasp onto anything that is an excuse for current situation, as if certain backgrounds are allergic to supporting the game, which is just not true.

That when the ‘diverse’ kids get old enough to make decisions for themselves and don’t go on to support a ‘diverse’ club it means a low support base for the game. Having events which only emphasises the mono-ethnic nature of clubs rather than embracing the local community doesn’t serve to increase that diversity. There’s no other way around that point.

I'm not saying certain ethnic backgrounds are allergic to the game - please quote the specific part where I said that. All I've said is that when it comes to senior football at a state league level, it's the wog clubs who overwhelmingly put money into that part of the game. 'Mainstream' clubs even with a history of strong junior numbers have not succeeded in this environment yet. You claim that I'm grasping - I reckon I'm providing evidence based upon my travels, discussions and interviews done with people from Morwell, Mildura, Hobart etc

South Spingvale and Malvern qualify from South East group. In group A big spending South Springvale will play Boxhill united with Port Melbourne and Oakliegh going head to head. Kinston City to play Malvern with heavywieghts South and Bentliegh playing.
Games played at Kingston next weekend.

Just curious to know whether all the team will be playing mainly there U21's in the group stages?

nah you weren't stating the that the wog clubs are the biggest, rather you were using the examples to suggest that there is not any support for the game more broadly i.e. certain backgrounds don't support it. The reality is the game has not engaged other backgrounds because of its mono-ethnic structure and there is not a diversity problem at other levels of the game.

Policy should encourage diversity to improve the games reach and my point was/is that a mono-ethnic cup however small won't help achieve a greater local connection.

What I am arguing is that we are heading towards a participation based model at all levels below a top tier. People of all backgrounds are - with a couple of notable exceptions such as perhaps the WAFL and SANFL - no longer interested in second tier sport as a spectator sport. People especially in metropolitan areas have innumerable options as to what to do with their limited leisure time, and they're not keen on wasting it watching on a lower level of competition.

This is why we have booming numbers in junior, women's, futsal, veterans, thirds etc soccer competitions. Soccer is an accessible game for several demographics unlike several rival sports (though the cost of participation is an issue). But as soon these people's participation is over (whether that is as players themselves or as parents of players) they leave the game at that level entirely. While this isn't a new phenomenon, there were at least sponsors and fanbases there in the past to disguise this fact. It has been apparently of a particular concern historically in the women's game, according to Vic women's soccer stalwart Betty Hoare, who I interviewed about two or three years ago. I hope that changes, or that it is changing.

I could even take you back to the 1940s to show you how increased leisure options create problems for sporting clubs. In the 1940s, Williamstown had a great team in the VFA, and decent crowds and membership numbers... as soon as petrol rationing ended however in 1949, despite the continued competitiveness of the team, membership and crowds fell. All of a sudden people weren't limited to what was right in front of them.

I can go to wog and mainstream clubs across the Melbourne metro area during the season, and for the most part I see the same thing - crowds made up of men 40 years and over, and me at 28 being basically the youngest person in attendance outside the reserves players and a few very young children... and you see the same thing in the VPL, where most reserves players and their parents leave as soon as they can. The model before the ethnic led boom in Victoria was also a participation based model, albeit with a far lower, perhaps even stagnant level of participation (and yet, strangely, often excellent crowds for matches by touring sides). Have a read of John Kallinikios' 'Soccer Boom', very accessible history of the transformation of the game during the 1950s especially.

Excellently expressed Blackmissionary. I've tried to say similar things in the past about second tier sport not being of interest to Aussies, but I've lacked your more detailed knowledge and examples.

The seniors group stage kicked off yesterday. Didn't see much of it as I got there a lot earlier to watch some under 21s and veterans matches and left after getting annoyed by sunburn and the apparent thrashing that Brunswick were going to get.

Heidelberg 3 Brunswick City 2
I watched most of the first half of this game, Bergers were 3-0 up against a City side that attacked well but defended poorly.

Northcote 0 Western Suburbs 0

Oakleigh 1 Port Melbourne 2

South Springvale 5 Box Hill 0

Oakliegh played a quite weakend side with very few seniors players and were unlucky not to draw
Boxhill played a weakned reserve squad agianst what seemed to be ss first 11

South Melb 2-0 Bentleigh. Trifiro and Joryeff scored the goals, good to get a clean-sheet after shipping 4 in a mid-week friendly.

Reasonably entertaining game between two State League 2 South-East rivals in Kingston and Malvern. Reds deserved to win it, though their goal was a bit comical, with the Malvern keeper running back towards goal to prevent a looping shot going in - and was judged by the linesman to have crossed the line. Kingston's fans under the shed were certain it was a goal, the keeper was incredulous, but the goal stood.

Does Kingston's ground have good food? I'm thinking of heading to some games there, assuming I won't be shunned for not being Greek

$8 souvs, they're ok depending on who you ask, but realistically not worth the price, especially with day old bread.

had a souv on sunday, very aveage. Not even the proper souv meat thats cut off the gyro. Just seemed like they had some shaslicks and cooked them then took the meat off. Was very dry as well. Would not reccomend them. Had one at western suburbs the wednesday before which was much better and cheaper.

The comment and examples about the reduction in sporting attendances are true, it's the case for the top tier as well, but it doesn't mean that there is no interest in second tier, the SANFL and WAFL examples are getting more interest not less, but they make sure all the different levels of the sport are connected. It may be the case that you are right, i don’t think you are as local sport offers something different, but it's too early to say either way.

What we can say is by holding events which only appeal to a small section of the community we reinforce the games stereotype and makes it harder to get people involved not from those backgrounds. I’m not sure it really matters if it is a attendance or participation based league in relation to that point.

Eh no, je thinks second tier attendance sport has no future, you were trying to claim a professional 2nd tier would be possible now *without* TV revenue.

Attendance vs participation does play a role here, because people are happy to send their children for example to clubs whose senior clubs are of an ethnic background - at that stage, because of their desire for their children to have access to what they perceive as the best resources, ethnicity is not an issue. In Melbourne's inner north, Brunswick Zebras and Essendon Royals are from all reports able to charge large amounts on their juniors, and yet still pull excellent numbers. Down the road, Moreland City, an Anglo-British club, charges much lower fees, but they don't seem to have that same amount of players or junior pedigree, at least not to an outsider like myself.

In the cases of the SANFL and WAFL, there are two important factors to consider. Firstly, the long history as part of the established culture those comps and teams have in those states - and the effects that the AFL and their local clubs have. With Port Power and the Crows having had a downturn in form in recent years (as well as the waiting list for Crows membership) people are more inclined to go local. In the WAFL's case, the long waiting list for Eagles memberships also matters, as well as, excepting the Eagles surprise success of last season, the previous form of the local teams.

For less successful transitions to second tier, at least again from an outsider's point of view, you have Newtown Jets and North Sydney rugby league clubs. Or look at the reliance that almost every VFA club has on affiliates for both crowds and financial survival. Even the ABC considered ditching their coverage of the VFL for this year. Going further down into third tier sport, Melbourne's western suburbs used to have two footy leagues... they merged 20 years ago, and about half the teams have disappeared since.

What local sport offers as a point of difference now is participation, and when it comes to the football codes, soccer does it best.

The point of difference in an attendance based local league is closer to the action, representatives of your local area, cheaper and different food and drinks, looking at up and coming players and players connected with a-league clubs. Some of that is done poorly.

If we have solely a participation model ala cricket, it wouldn’t be a bad thing, because some of that converts to watching support, but we need to convert many more kiddies to adults playing the game. The natural way to do that is to not set the game up so it only appeals to certain elements of the local community.

This is where we disagree Kapow - someone like you or I can theoretically be convinced to attend a 2nd tier match because we can see some value in doing so. Other people, the majority, can't.

Why would someone visit a 2nd tier sport as a spectator when they have myriad other first class options, and not just in a sporting sense? That's the thinking that has partly been responsible for the thinning out of spectator numbers in 2nd tier sport? How many people are keen to stick around to watch more soccer after they've already watched their kids train or have played themselves three days a week? Especially if its played on a different day?

And to be honest, picking on the Hellenic Cup is such a petty act, Kapow. It's a shambles of a pre-season tournament often played in 35 degree heat. It's not designed to attract new people - it struggles to attract even the spectators of the clubs that participate.

Nah i'm not being petty, maybe as i don't have the local experience that you have i don't appreciate how insignificant it is, but i just feel until we get mainstream acceptance we should be doing everything possible to make teams as strong a local representatives as possible. Perhaps that’s a little idealistic on my part.

Let's put it this way, in the last five or so years, even the Hellenic Cup has turned towards a participation orientation. Used to be a solely senior club/spectator oriented tournament. Now it has veterans, under 21s and womens competitions included (the women's comp including non-Greek aligned teams, including WVPL ones). At the end of the year, they have a junior Hellenic Cup.

fair enough, however you have to consider how others view it and how the game is viewed generally.

The competing teams will soon spend 6-7 months in regular, proper competition. You're getting your knickers in a twist about a month long pre-season kick-about that even you yourself seem to know very little about.

I know how the game is generally viewed, Kapow. And in general no-one but the most absolute hardcore knows or cares about this tournament - even some of the formerly regular participants prefer to do other things. The best thing about the comp is the food (depends which venues are used) and the prizemoney (10k for the winner of the final). I swear, I must have paid attention for all of 25 minutes last week, because I was so busy catching up with people I hadn't seen over the off-season.

As i said fair enough. As long as you recognise the importance of presenting the game in a fashion that changes how it is viewed, i accept i don't have the experience and knowledge you have of the cup and local scene generally to assess its impact.

any results yet?

Northcote 3 Yarraville 0
Heidelberg 0 Altona East 0
Port Melbourne 4 Box Hill 0
South Melbourne 1 Kingston 1

Oakleigh 0 Sth Springvale 0

Bentleigh 0 Malvern 0