well matt where do yo get you info from??/ Gillards spin team???? LOL

wake up mate...or do you have to wait untill australia is COMPLETELY screwed?????

i cant see you doing anything in halves so you have tro wait till it's completely fucked...!!!!

certainly don't get my info from the smellagraph or 702 ABC.....rubbish left wing tripe

Ask, and ye shall receive.

I won't just address your questions, but also your statements about things that aren't actually fact and assumptions about my politics that are way off base that it's not really all that funny anymore (well, maybe just a little bit funny).


They're technically not paying more for private health insurance - the ATO is reducing the subsidies that it currently provides to high income earners in the form of a tax return. That subsidy will be means tested - as it should be. People that do not need it will no longer be getting free money from the government... not sure how this is socialism run rampant?


I believe Skeptic addressed this with you already, quoting many conservative commentators and you still dismissed him as spin.


I'm not sure if you're looking back on the Howard years with rose coloured glasses or you're selectively re-writing history as Peter Costello was recently caught out doing. All job losses are horrific to those involved, and it's always corporate fear of margin loss resulting in knee-jerk reactionary layoffs that causes them - not the government.


You can think that if you want - I don't feel particularly protective of Gillard or the ALP and I try to look at things as a whole rather than focus on one issue at a time. I think all things considered Gillard has been deserving of criticism, but the actual criticism received is disproportionate because she's a woman.


Yeah, right-o mate. I'll keep that in mind next time you're shouting "facts" at me without so much of a link or reference, whilst you dismiss what Skeptic links & posts because he's the "SPINDOCTOR".


Your age does not provide you with any special insight or wisdom. Sorry to disappoint, but I don't find your extra 25 years of life on me to be a persuasive argument to your point of view.


If this is what motivates you, then you are using sweeping generalisations to justify your skewed point of view. This is why I find it both hypocritical and insulting for you to tell me to "be more objective".


Oh. You're right because you say you are? My mistake - I concede sir. (Just so you don't misunderstand, this is actually sarcasm).


Can you explain to me the benefits of a surplus, and why it is the panacea of all our social, political and economic problems?


I'll ask again. When did Gillard become the Speaker of the House?

I think you will find that it was Peter Slipper that evicted Wyatt Roy because he was breaking procedural rules. The entire house had been warned about breaking procedure and informed they would be turfed without warning if they did so. Roy wasn't the first, and he won't be the last.


All Governments make mistakes. Howard & Costello made mistakes and manipulated situations for political gain, as do Abbott & Hockey. Why do the mistakes of the Gillard government annoy you more than the mistakes of the Howard government?


By what measure are you calling the NBN a "massive failure"?


By what measure are you calling border protection a failure? I actually can't fucking stand the current ALP border "protection" policy because it panders to the inhumane and racist.


Are you an economist? How are you possibly in a position to make this call?


I agree. Quite the dirty little bit of politics and pandering to the corporate whims of Clubs Australia, and directly against Greens recommendations also.


All politicians lie. For someone that's been around for 25 years longer than me, I'm astounded you haven't realised it yet.

That said, calling it a lie doesn't make it a failure. We're yet to see the true effects of the temporary tax that will transition into a trading scheme within 5 years, although other nations around the world are already indicating that they will follow suit. Australia doing it alone will have fuck all effect on the environment, yes, but other nations will follow.


I actually got exactly what I voted for, and Adam Bandt has quite a visible & accessible face.


You mean the conference? Where they adopted Marriage Equality as their party platform AGAINST the Leader's support?

Well, I didn't vote for it - no - but I couldn't help but smile a bit.


Err, this was decided by an independent panel and ALL politicians (not just ALP politicians) received huge pay increases to compensate for the lifetime perks that they lost. You can't pin that one on Gillard, sorry.


What ever happened to Innocent Until Proven Guilty? That's an ongoing investigation and if he is found guilty I hope that he not only loses his job, but is locked up.

Are you familiar with the name Mary Jo Fisher?
http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/08/24/craig-thomson-mary-jo-fisher-controversy/


I have no interest in NSW politics, but it sounds no difference from any other he-said, she-said political game that both sides play.


What do you propose we do? Take up arms and storm Canberra?


By what measure would you define someone a "labor GIMP", especially someone that a) Isn't a member of the party and b) didn't vote for them in the latest election?


I think we covered this earlier. Throwing stones in glass houses and all that.


Umm... yes? so?


I'm still not actually convinced that you have the faintest idea about my political and/or social views (they actually line up pretty well with each other), so you'll have to forgive me for not accepting this rebuke.


Doing just fine.

i think I missed something here. Every anti-Gillard or anti-Labor comment made here is instantly rebutted by you, yet you then insist you have no love for Labor.
Out of interest, can you tell me one piece of policy that you consider to be a Labor victory since they took over from Howard? And sending us all a cheque for $900 doesn't count.

Doesn't it? Why? It seems to have done a pretty good job of propping up the retail sector albeit temporarily. You can't ignore the positive things the ALP did to keep Australia as the best faring nation in the western world out of the 2008 GFC.

I consider Carbon Pricing to be a step in the right direction for humanity as a whole, I don't really care about individual parties.

If Abbott does the right thing and allows a conscience vote on Marriage Equality, this will also be a victory for humanity. Again, I don't care about individual parties.

As I linked to the thoughts of Neil deGrasse Tyson earlier in the thread, I don't believe that leadership is a crucial issue. Critical thinking and scientific literacy within voting populations are far more important. I don't see much of it (if any at all) in the anti-Gillard hyperbole.

this.....

i didn't get a $900 cheque

Actually, I would argue that the state our economy was already in when Labor took office was the determining factor in Australia weathering the GFC as we did. Which positive things did Labor do? Were they responsible for the surplus that allowed Rudd to send out the cheques? Did they manufactuer the mining boom that was largely responsible? No and no.


Neither of these are actually law. What ifs don't count.
FWIW, I support a tax on polluters. The jury is still out on this particular version of it.


I don't agree. Leadership is the key issue. Setting a strong example for your party to follow. Too many Labor members look after their own interests. When they did have a leader with the will to get things done, i.e. Rudd, they got rid of him. Gillards only motive seems to be to remain in power for as long as possible and she's accomplished nothing of note. What example does that give to the rest of her party? It's the lack of leadership that's caused the problems.

I hate to break it to you sunshine, but this is not a mindset that is limited to Julia Gillard, or ALP politicians.

All politicians crave power and will do anything to gain/keep it. This is the nature of politics.

Thanks for the insight. And you wonder where the accusations of condescension come from.

You can call it being condescending if you like. I call it being forced to state the bleeding obvious because it's clearly been overlooked.

This notion would contradict itself, wouldn't it?

How so?

This 'step in the right direction for humanity' isn't 'doing everything they can to stay in office' and if anything will be the reason they get voted out.

The ETS policy was largely the reason that Rudd won in 2007, and walking away from it was a large part of his downfall. It's entirely probably that Gillard & the ALP thought the Carbon Tax would be politically advantageous for them.

Except when they were facing public backlash for the idea...

That came after the fact.

There was months of public backlash before it was voted through parliament as a bill.

Of all the possible examples, the carbon tax is exactly one of the policies that is designed to keep Labor in power. If they dump it the Greens will pull their support. That's why in the election campaign Gillard famously said 'there would be no carbon tax from any government I lead'. Before the hung parliment of course.
If Rudd was dumped because of party opposition to the ETS, then what changed within Labor that now sees them support a price carbon? Oh that's right, the threat of losing power.

I don't disagree with any of this.

on its own merit they're going to lose power anyway. It's a catch 22.

My point is that what's best for the Australian people flies out the window when it comes to ensuring Labor remain in power by enacting a policy they don't want.

Wow, I really should come into "Extra Time" a bit more... this is the first time I've stumbled across here for months.. really enjoyed reading the conversation.. I am not a fan of taking sides politically, I'm a fan of logic and backing a party enacting correct policies, I think party politics have become largely centralised anyway and that it doesn't matter too much who is in power.
However, I have largely been defending Labor policies for the last few months. The main reason I have for this is that most reasons I hear against Labor are that "Err, they are lead by a red headed bitch" and "she is a dumb bitch" etc etc. In other words, the people criticising her have no idea, 100% of the people I challenged their views on who espoused this type of opinion had no intelligent reaction, and I feel the need to play devil's advocate in order to keep some sort of balance. Therefore it is refreshing to come onto a forum which I frequent and find opinions stated with at least some sort of reason to guide them.. thank you for that.
I'm drawn largely to notorganic's arguments.. Labor have made some stupid decisions, much like any government in Australian history, but can you honestly single them out as being significantly worse than other governments? I don't have the experience of living through other governments regimes (and just because I don't have experience, doesn't mean my opinion is invalid, I still feel that as a university educated individual, my capacity to reason is somewhat valid.. yes that sounds like a giant wank, I don't care..) but does anyone remember how cut everyone was when the GST was introduced by the Howard government? ("Err, NZ's GST is over 20%, Australia is fucked") ("Errr.. other countries economies have been ruined by a GST) and look at Australia now? To steal the words of Neville Bartos.. "We're flyyyying!"

hard to take you seriously, the arguement that most people avoid in this thread is that Labor are incompetent, they may have reasonable policies, but are completely incapable of executing them, theorists. You need to have a good look at the policy outcomes of this government and then mount a more informed and educated debate

Edited by batfink: 13/2/2012 08:08:44 AM

Oh sorry, that was my bad, I got really drunk last night and forgot that I actually hate discussing politics, generally because people tend to tell you that they aren't prepared to take your viewpoint seriously when it doesn't match theirs. I don't think I explicitly said I support Labor, I just think people are quick to hang shit on them lately, that's all I wanted to say. Anyway, don't worry, I don't care, carry on..

Nah mate, you said something in defense of the ranga. You're clearly a LABOR GIMP.

Where did the leak spring from?

Without wanting to wade into this too much, I would just add that the ACTUAL reason we where kept out of the major fallout of the GFC was our banks.

The GFC was a crisis that afflicted the global banking sector, which then had a flow on effect through global economies.

Our banks are the strongest in the world, now this means that us Australian's get crewed up the arse with the highest interest rates and charges in the world, but it ALSO meant that our banks where the only ones that came out of the GFC with barely a mark on them, which propped up the Australian economy compared to the rest of the globes economy.

It was this reason, combined with the usual strengths in our ties with China, plus our lack of foreign debt, meant that we effectively sailed through the GFC with relative ease barring poor consumer sentiment.

The stimulus packages from the Federal Government made everyone feel good, but in a pure economic sense, made absolutely no difference at all to how our economy faired during the GFC.

LOL.....[-x

did anyone catch the recent news about the downfall of RUDD as PM by our illustrious leader last night, and confirmation by several of Gillards own ministers that she lied about the events leading upto the incident and continues to lie to the Australian public??? was interesting viewing, just to see her squirm......and it looks like the media and Labor are documenting the fall of Gillard, so who will be the new PM this march???
RUDD?? Shorten?? Smith?? Swann?? LOL.... it's like a 3 ring circus, or has bruce hawker got an ace up his sleave??

And still, more people are (rightly) scared of an Abbott led government