Honestly, decentric... what is this fantastic level that Rogic is supposed to have achieved in international football?

He is 22 and has barely played any senior club football.

Agreed and even the brief good performances have been against lower quality opposition that say Norway would play against .

Don't get to excited about FFA coaches opinions on what they see until the player produces regularly on the big stage for a number is seasons. Remember their opinions on kaz pataffta

At least three occasions for the Socceroos he has excelled like few others . There must be other performances too, but these three stand out.

Putting the Rogic case from a different perspective, taking into consideration that Inala Brah, and possible others, have cogently contended that Rogic needs to demonstrate sustained performance in club football, compared to some excellent cameos in international football, to be considered a bona fide pro footballer.

Let us take a look at the Scott McDonald scenario. He was a veritable star with Celtic. Macca had heaps of opportunities to play for Australia, but could not succeed to the level of what was required from him within the Socceroo game plan under Pim and Holger. Now Ange doesn't want him. Ange wants Rogic though.

Rogic has already dominated at a level Macca couldn't in international football.

If he has been able to do this, albeit for short periods, whereas Macca failed and Paddy Kisnorbo also failed (whilst a decent player in the SPL), a cogent argument can be proffered that Rogic can excel in the lowly SPL to a much greater extent than Macca and Paddy if given opportunities?

I am also using a dialectical position, analogous to the argument that many Europhiles make on this forum. That is, because player X plays in X or Y league in Europe, then surely they must be able to do the same for the Socceroos.

Implicit in this reasoning is whoever the Socceroo coach of the time is, they don't know what they are doing, but the club coaches in Europe do.

This line of reasoning has frequently been used on this forum, often unchallenged.

There is a cogent antithetical response to what I've suggested in the Rogic scenario. I'll leave that to others.

Craig Foster previously argued that the technical ability of Asian opponents was much higher than the SPL. Henceforth, the likes of Macca and Paddy struggled with the different requirements of international football compared to their SPL.

I've seen a lot of European qualifiers lately, having a look at at many teams outside the top European eight or so.

Many of them played with a lot of squares in their formations, rather than the mandatory diamonds and triangles now seen in Oz football as we have followed the European powerhouses.

I've seen Slovenia, Norway, Faroe Islands, Bulgaria, Romania, Belarus, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Poland, Turkey, Greece, Sweden, Estonia, Lithuania, Austria, Hungary, Latvia, Belarus, Moldovia, Iceland, Malta, et al, play recently. Many of these teams are Norway's quality of opponent in European qualifiers.

Most European countries are not football powerhouses.

Goals.

That is what players like Commons deliver that Rogic doesn't. The ability to change the scoreboard. For all of Rogic's dominance in the internationals listed, how many of his plays led to goals, either assisting or scoring? That is what an attacking mid will ultimately be judged on - compare perceptions of Holamn vs Luongo.

For all of Tommy's undoubted talent he is yet to put it together and learn how to truly affect the outcome of a game. Commons have a fantastic goals and assists record. Tommy s goal last week was his first since scoring for CCM THREE YEARS ago in 2012.

That's adrtho type stuff.

I might just ask anyone who wants to expand further on Rogic's situation compared to other players at Celtic to create another thread as it's detracting somewhat from the rest of the Aussies Abroad updates and discussion.

Mate you may well be making good points but seriously you need to put the thesaurus down for a couple of minutes.

I have a pretty good grasp of English but when I see the above my eyes glaze over and I skip right past what you've written.

It may only be me but I doubt it.

Do yourself, and us, a favour a make use the K.I.S.S. principle.

Just my two cents (or tuppence, depending on where you are). Sorry to carry on Paladisious.

Firstly, I think Decentric is being a bit rough on Norway. I tell you this. Australia can thank God that they're in the Asian confederation. We would struggle to qualify for World Cups if we were in, say, Europe. Yes we play matches in 40 degree heat and Asia is getting better, Japan and Iraq have some seriously (technically) talented young players. But we still have it far easier than the Europeans. I reckon Norway would be a good chance at beating us. They have a host of players playing at least as good a level as ours. They also have one of the most gifted teenage footballers in the world. They have Martin Ødegaard. Australia is yet to produce a footballer this gifted.

Secondly, leaving aside assessments of individual countries, you don't know how the player gets on with the country's football administration. You can't discount politics, you can't discount inept coaching and team selection. There are all these variables involved which can't be taken for granted.

Thirdly, I'm as big a fan of Rogic as anyone and I believe he's a truly world class talent. This is supposition, but I have an inkling that if Rogic had grown up in a country like Holland, Belgium, Germany, etc., he'd be a star player by now in one of the big five leagues. But I think it's a bit rough to dismiss other players on the basis of Rogic having played a handful of parts of matches for the Socceroos while those players are playing week in, week out for their clubs. I mean think about it in scientific/empirical terms, we're looking a very small sample space for Rogic versus an extensive sample space for Johanesen and Commons. Having said that, I was at the Socceroos versus Jordan match. My cousins and I were on the edge of our seats every time Rogic was on the ball. You just sensed here is a player of a different calibre. Those cameos that Rogic have played do tell us how much raw ability and technique he has. But they're not really enough to question the selection of Commons and Johanesen. It tells us Rogic just needs to get the gametime and things will be very interesting.

Fourthly, thanks melbourne terrace for the explanation. I think you have it right. The nuance is that even if Rogic is better than Johansen and Commons in terms of the most thrilling aspects of attacking football, those two are presently more well-rounded attacking midfielders than Rogic. And that has to count for something. I mean Decentric that whole Leckie v Kruse debate you had centred around your point that a player only has the ball at his feet for around 3 minutes in a match, so it's very important that he works well off the ball. Can't you see how this might be a good reason why Rogic isn't necessarily regarded as first choice.

Fifthly, I do agree with Decentric that, initially, Rogic might made a poor move in going to Celtic. The strength of the league doesn't seem to be as high as parts of continental Europe. It's Celtic, daylight and then other sides. Sorry, Scottish friends, I don't mean to badmouth your league. I might be wrong, you know it better than I do. And I gather Scottish football is improving. Having said that, Rogic is at a good club and is getting gametime. I'm a big fan of Rony Deila. Celtic have shown a lot of faith in Rogic. I think Rogic should stick it out at Celtic and do his best to repay their faith in him.

Finally, hope you get well soon BrisbaneBhoy. I'm also a bit poorly at the minute and it's not fun.

It's not that hard to click "new topic", guys.

PAOK won 5:0 in Europa League qualification. Mabil not in squad at Southampton.

Mabil still hasn't got the international clearance or something else?

Assuming Antonis not in squad yet?

Ill accept your appraisal of Rogic the player however you are neglecting to consider how Rogic the player fits into Celtic the system.

As others have mentioned, celtic play a high tempo game with their three attacking players in constant rotation. Rogic is best suited IMO to a central attacking role where he is the main play maker, in other words the players are constantly looking for him. He is not an overly good player without the ball, something commons is extremely good at.

While i am a huge fan of Rogic, the move was a poor choice because i just dont ever see him developing a high tempo game that celtic require. In many ways he is a luxury player.

During the years of Le Tissier, southampton played in a way that allowed le tiss to ignore a lot of his defensive duties which meant that when he got the ball he had a lot more energy to be able to make things happen. I personally think Rogic needs to find a manager at club level that is going to allow him to be this player. I honestly dont think he is going to find that anywhere in the UK these days

New Signing, there is now a specific Rogic thread.:d

Is this the best thread to talk about how mat Ryan's going for valencia?

Absolutely, you'll find plenty of updates on his progress here.

Edited by azzaMVFC: 21/8/2015 09:23:22 AM

Probably some semen also.

The coach was saying to give him time so it might be a little while before we see him playing. They might be wanting to work on certain aspects of his game.

:lol: I think you mean FC Midtjylland lol. I can't see him getting a run for a bit though.

Edit: I didn't realise Midt versed Shampton, my bad.

Edited by lakey64: 21/8/2015 10:21:58 AM

About to say :lol:

not probably, you will.

Did lol loudly.

All right, lets get this ship back on track:

As mentioned earlier, Antonis and Mabil not in their respective squads for their Europa league games

Milligan played 90 mins for Bani Yas in 2-0 away win against Al Shaab in opening game of UAE season.

Antonis will not have been registered for this round and they are both young so I don't think we can expect them to walk into their respective sides.

Here is a video of Antonis' first training session uploaded 2 days a go, he can't be expected to play too soon

[youtube]watch?v=xM3fYjvl_Ro[/youtube]

PAOK has a really good web presence, really well set out site and they put out quite a few videos. Here are two more relevant videos. First Antonis' arrival interview (in English) and second highlights of his career (just a compilation but the club)

[youtube]watch?v=UQWn1_plQzk[/youtube]

[youtube]watch?v=4WwyvXw8MjM[/youtube]

Also I won't embed it but here is the post game interview from this morning. it is 47 minutes long but that is mainly waiting for the interviews to happen. PAOK manager Igor Tudor is interviewed second starting at about 40:30. He is Croatian and interviews in English through a translator but English is obviously he second language (guessing there aren't many Croatian to Greek translators) so it isn't the smoothest interview. He is asked about transfers and why none have played and he mentions they play every 3-4 days so there will need to be a bit of squad rotation which is where we are most likely to see Antonis play imo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQWAdzv5Lp4

Millsy is wearing the #6 shirt for Baniyas. Overnight he played in the middle of the park in a 4-3-3. As u4486662 mentioned, 2-0 away win at Al Shaab.

Thanks. Did any of you guys catch the game against Monaco? I heard Ryan was motm?

Newly promoted Como are now favorites to get Brillante. If this interview with Sporting director Giovani Dolci is correct it would seem he will be brought in as a midfielder.



Since Jherson Vergara is a defender Brillante would be the midfielder.


http://www.tuttomercatoweb.com/serie-b/esclusiva-tmw-como-vergara-dolci-in-dirittura-brillante-ci-piace-718430

looks like Millsy will need to grow his casual beard.. and fast..