On the possible SW Sydney club I don't agree with the wait 20-30 years argument. By that time it will be completely Wanderers and/or Sydney territory, it would be better to try get a club there while there are still a fair few potential fans.

But of course you still have to factor in what would be the best way to introduce the club. Putting it straight into the HAL at the next expansion window wouldn't be a good idea as I don't think it would have great support. Having it in an A2 League for a while and trying to get the area to connect to it a bit first would IMO be the best option.

Fixed.

To grow football in the region and capitalise on a strong market...... Say what you will about heart, football has grown in melbourne partly to do with there being a second team here.

Here's an example

05/06 Melbourne Victory - Average 14,167. Aggregate 141,668

06/07 Melbourne Victory - Average 27,728. Aggregate 305,011

07/08 Melbourne Victory - Average 26,064. Aggregate 260,642

08/09 Melbourne Victory - Average 24,516. Aggregate 269,671

09/10 Melbourne Victory - Average 20,750. Aggregate 290,503

10/11 Melbourne Victory - Average 15,058. Aggregate 225,875
10/11 Melbourne Heart -- Average 8,312. Aggregate 124,680
Melbourne Total Average* - 23,370. Total Aggregate 350,555

11/12 Melbourne Victory - Average 20,280. Aggregate 263,648
11/12 Melbourne Heart -- Average 9,553. Aggregate 124,191
Melbourne Total Average - 29,761. Total Aggregate 387,839

12/13 Melbourne Victory - Average 23,089. Aggregate 300,158
12/13 Melbourne Heart -- Average 8,560. Aggregate 111,284
Melbourne Total Average - 31,649. Total Aggregate 411,442

*Average to me means average attendance over a 2 week period. Seems more relevant IMO

Needless to say, Melbourne football has been booming since we added a second team. Smashing previous aggregates year after year and the last 2 years have had a higher average attendance that when Melbourne Victory were peaking by winning the double and while they were still a new shiny team. The last 2 years have seen limited success over both Melbourne teams. Perhaps only the middle part of last season for Victory is the exception.

2 teams are just able to engage the community more, and the derbies are able to pump up the fans more. Something success on the field can't buy which is why Melbourne has significantly grown since 09/10 (+52%) Although i will concede that some did come when Harry Kewell, but you could argue that 2 teams drive competition, like how SFC immediately bought ADP after the announcement of WSW.

So to Jowel, If the FFA's goal is to grow football, how were Melbourne Heart a failure? I'd say massive success!

As for South Queensland Crushers Jowel, it's convenient how you leave it at that without going into the context of why they failed.
Averaged 21k in their first season after finishing 16th/20. Would be like 3rd best in the NRL today.
Averaged 13th in their second season after finishing 20th/20 and only winning 3 games. Still wouldn't be the worst in NRL today.
Averaged 7k in their final season after finishing 12th/12 and only winning 4 games.

Don't tell me they would've failed had the not had had such shit seasons. You'd only be lying to yourself.

Also, if it were such a bad idea, then why is one of the major bids for NRL expansion the Brisbane Bombers bid?

South Western Sydney residents, I'm afraid you will have to make a decision come time to expand to support a South Western Sydney team or to continue supporting the Wanderers. But tbf, you are good at making there decisions since you already made a similar decision last year :lol:

Sorry champ. Understand the culture then understand the demand.

Those kits are class paladicious.

Don't know why i bothered quoting your original post, i didn't really respond to it so ill do it now.

I'll ask a question that i don't think gets asked enough when people say don't split western sydney so WSW can hold the monopoly on the region. Why is that a good thing? Why is it good for WSW to have the entire region to itself for 20 years, potentially have 40k+ crowds and have more regional teams in Wollongong, canberra with low corporate support, getting 8k? Why is splitting a huge region in 2 to have 2 likely very well supported teams while creating derbies (which the FFA definitely want) the wrong move for football? Not to mention my above post that shows that Victory had 4 consecutive years of lost support till Heart came in and they're been gaining ever since.

Onto your next post, I'd say I do understand football culture and people in general. Outside your die hard fans, fans will likely support whats convenient (not that there's really too much wrong with that). Honestly tell me, why do you think most Wanderers fans would say that didn't support Sydney FC for the first 7 years? Personally, I don't think that most would say they don't feel represented or that the culture at SFC is so different to what the west is that they would NEVER EVER EVER EVER support them and will only ever support a team in western sydney. I'd say most didn't because its pretty far away for them to travel and they don't want to travel an hour to and from their games, which is pretty reasonable, people have busy lives.

I don't think the Wanderers would be a very different case, I don't think you are as special as you think you are.


Edited by tbitm: 30/9/2013 11:46:06 PM

Read the Red Devils may be forced to change their name as it has become clear that clubs wanting to enter the NPLV have to adopt more local colours/names, not imaged on a foreign country or club.

Could be your cue to send them some ideas.

Ballarat United.

lol.

Ballarat Town FC, nickname could be the Miners but i will call them the nuggets.

Good points made here from both sides of the WS debate.

Can I add that the key factor here is the point of difference. I can't see a new club coming into the comp from Penrith, Liverpool or Campbelltown having a strong point of difference to the Wanderers. The people of Western Sydney have all united under the banner of the Wanderers, as there is a common culture/philosophy in the region. Another WS club would only erode that unity.

FFA should have had 3 teams in Sydney at the beginning, and 2 teams in Melbourne at the begining. That's what was recommended in the Report of the NSL Taskforce in 2003 (see links here: http://fulltext.ausport.gov.au/fulltext/2003/soccer/Task_Force.asp and http://www.pfa.net.au/fileadmin/user_upload/_temp_/APL_For_the_Fans.pdf)

Sydney was recommended to have ONE team in Western Sydney (i.e. Parramatta), ONE team in Sydney's south east (i.e. Moore Park) and ONE team in Sydney's north east (i.e. North Sydney Oval). When the Sydney bids came in, the Mariners took the northern Sydney spot, Sydney FC was located at Moore Park (despite originally intending to play at Parramatta) whilst Western Sydney got nothing.

Would a North Sydney team work? Personally i'd love one, it would wouldn't help the Mariners though who i think have around 1k members from Northern Sydney, and it would more than likely steal from Sydney FC.

Really this should of been realised from when the A-league was created.

Dare i say it Sydney FC move a bit further south?

Discuss.

Too late for a North Sydney team now.

CCM and SFC markets.

Bit late to change SFC now, but even if you could, the only stadium with good transport in the north is North sydney oval. Has 8.5k seats and capacity of 20k. Its also an oval, but i don't see where else they would play. Sydney FC aren't going to get a stadium built solely for them, would need a RL team or 2 to commit to it and thats just not happening. Maybe Manly would move there, maybe.

They will stay put imo.

Team in the south is more likely, Korargah would be the obvious venue, while not perfect having 9k seats and still an oval (but a somewhat rectangular oval). It could get a touch up from the government if promised an A-league team and commitment from perhaps the Sharks, Dragons and Rabbitohs for at least some games. (Can someone from sydney tell me if these RL teams would likely play in a new korogah stadium?)

Edited by tbitm: 1/10/2013 02:42:27 PM

Dragons will be the only NRL club to ever play home matches at Kogarah.

Exactly.

Imagine if the Mariners didn't exist. I have a feeling they were entered into the A-league's first season because John Singleton was an FFA board member at the time and also had a financial stake in the Central Coast bid and Bluetongue Stadium. Hence Mariners were given the green light. In any case it has worked out relatively well for the Mariners.

But, what if the Mariners instead chose to be based at North Sydney Oval, just like Northern Spirit? Surely their crowds would be larger, and they would potentially capture the central coast region anyway.

Plus, what if the FFA supported having a Sydney team playing at Moore Park and also a Sydney team playing at Parramatta to both enter the A-league's first season.

If the FFA had gone by the recommendations of the NSL taskforce there would have been 3 big Sydney clubs existing at the start of the A-league. Unfortunately they only put one Sydney club in at the beginning and screwed everything up.

Edited by Jowel: 1/10/2013 02:50:56 PM

I understand the calls for a 2nd Western Sydney team and my natural inclination is to be for it - however, there just isn't the failure to identify with the Wanderers amongst any significant group of WS based Football fans. Give it time - if genuine cultural or geographic grievances emerge then it's a possibility.

As far as a third team in Sydney goes I think the South has to be the prime candidate, centred on the St George area. Like Western Sydney this area IS a Football area, it has it's own identity and is a nice mix of middle and working class communities.

It's been claimed that this is Sydney FC territory based on the fact that most SFC members reputedly come from this area. That's an indication that this is a Football territory, not SFC territory. As someone who lives and coaches Football in the district I can tell you it's not Sydney FC territory, relatively few people and Football fans identify with them.

Also I think we shouldn't be hamstrung by concerns about damaging Sydney FC's support when it comes to looking at expansion in Sydney. Sydney has a very natural and strong North, South, East, West divide. It's shooting ourselves in the foot to say we can't take advantage of this in the South or North because we may damage a club in the East that has never really captured the attention of the population in either the South or North.

Edited by Exile: 1/10/2013 04:00:07 PM

Edited by tbitm: 1/10/2013 04:21:55 PM

Iridium. The NSW Government redefined the regions in Sydney late last year, reducing the number of regions from 9 down to 6. The map on the link below shows the new set up and I think it would be best if you use it in your OP so we are all talking about the same areas using the same titles.

I am currently producing a spreadsheet that includes the current and projected populations for these 6 regions and I'll try to massage the registered football player numbers to indicate the number of players in each region.

http://strategies.planning.nsw.gov.au/Portals/0/Documents/8_Draft_Metro_Subregions_Intro.pdf

Edited by gyfox: 1/10/2013 04:43:12 PM

I disagree, the St George area is only 10k from the SFS and is very much part of Sydney's fan catchment area. What makes more sense is a Wollongong team that appeals to some people from the Shire who have not been brought in by SFC. But St George is very much connected with Sydney FC.

So is lower North Shore, it's less then 10K over the bridge and you're at the stadium.

Draw a line to Ashfield, Leichhardt and Marrickville and there's Sydney's catchment. All within around 10K of the stadium. Which isn't to say there won't be WSW fans there - hey, I know plenty of SFC fans out west too.

As far as the North is concerned, North Sydney Oval is just too close for a new team.

Besides which, as population ages and real estate prices rise, more young people will be forced out of the market in and around the city areas. So reducing Sydney's fan geographic catchment base makes no long term sense.

Meanwhile, Sydney's South West is growing at a rate of knots. A team based in Campbelltown or even Liverpool will make sense in a few years once they develop more of their own identity, one that's distinct and separate from WSW. It's more like 20k from Parramatta and will have a large market to draw upon. But not yet. Let WSW establish themselves fully first.

And while I'm no fan of making alliances with NRL clubs, a stadium out in Campbelltown shared by the HAL team and Tigers makes sense to me.

Not bad, although in keeping w/the Eureka theme the club could be named Ballarat 1854 :idea:

As for a Geelong team, Geelong City FC(Wildcats) is bound to work theme-wise in keeping with the AFL Cats.

The Northern most edge of the St George area, Arncliffe, is over 10km away from the SFS by road.

The centre of the St George District, pretty much where Kogarah Oval is, is 18.5kms away. When the Dragon abandoned Kogarah for the SFS - for good the club pledged - there was a well supported local campaign to get them back. The SFS was too far, and no place for the local team to be playing.

Sydney FC's fan catchment is all of Sydney. There will always be a certain amount of "Sydney-minded" fans from Engadine to Guilford to Frenches Forest. But the vast majority of people and Football fans identify much more enthusiastically with their local area.

I repeat, it makes no sense to deny Football areas with Football histories and strong local identities a place in expansion planning because they might harm a team in Eastern Sydney that claims to represent all of Sydney. If that's to be the case, then that team would be an impediment to the A-League's reach in Sydney.

Edited by Exile: 1/10/2013 05:28:30 PM

Sydney population break up and projections through to 2031 are given in the table below.

But do we really want an AFL/NRL-esque league where ½ of the clubs are from 1 city/state?

Edited by BA81: 1/10/2013 05:56:59 PM

I really appreciate all your spadework Gyfox. Makes this thread so well informed. Keep it up :)

I'm not too bothered what state they come from, if that state has the population centres to support many clubs. But we absolutely should avoid flooding any one market with too many clubs. I really think any talk of the third Sydney club should be put on the back burner for at least a decade, probably two.

For me, expansion is pretty straight forward. Canberra and Tasmania next, then I think we should look at going back to NQ, GC, and Auckland, and doing them right this time. Plus a team in Wollongong/Illawarra/South Coast, whatever it's called now.

exactly, those saying we shouldnt put any more clubs in sydney and melbourne and all the major population centres, and instead spread the game to northern territory and the victorian goldminds have to be kidding themselves.

also what names could we call a team in the south or the south-west. we know that a potential north sydney side would be along the lines of northern spirit.

would people in the south associate themselves with a name with south in it, or does it have too much association with redfern even though redfern is in the inner west?

I'd love a team in Tasmania so I could get to watch A-League games live on a regular basis but you can forget about it until the economy here improves. We simply couldn't afford it and probably won't be able to in the next decade.

I agree with you that the ACT should be next on the list but my second club for the next expansion would be in Qld to give their large number of players a second pathway to professional football.

My concern with a number of locations you suggest is the ability of "small" regions to fund the average $7 - $7.5m it costs to run a full club or the $6.5m it takes to run an A-League and NYL team.

Edited by gyfox: 1/10/2013 06:54:07 PM

This shows exactly why we should have more than 2 teams in Sydney. The idea that it cannot support more is ridiculous. Each of those Sydney regions will alone be bigger than most of the areas people are suggesting and already are way bigger than several current A-League teams.

At the moment Sydney has a population of 4.6 million. That is bigger than the combined population of the following:

Central Coast - 320,000
Newcastle/Maitland - 418,000
Perth - 1.9 mill3
Adelaide 1.2 mill
Wellington - 395,000
TOTAL - 4.23 million*

Adding all Perth, Newcastle/Maitland, Adelaide, Central Coast and Wellington there is still a smaller population than Sydney (in fact, 300,000 smaller - i.e. another whole city bigger than Wollongong). Yet Sydney has only 2 teams, whilst there are 5 teams representing these other areas in total. And to top that off, Sydney is the one with the greater projected growth!

I'm not saying don't put teams in Canberra or Ipswich or Wollongong as I think they should have teams, but the idea that Sydney is full and/or couldn't support teams is completely wrong.

At the moment South-West Sydney is already bigger than Newcastle and Central Coast combined, or conversely is bigger than Canberra (410,000) and Wollongong (282,00) combined. I'm sorry, but I just cannot understand how people don't think we should be looking at South-West Sydney. It is geographically distinct from WSW and SFC, it will be one of the biggest areas in all of Australia, and it is way bigger than every other suggested location. Again, I don't think it is an either/or but I've gotta come out swinging when people don't want another Sydney team.


*I'm willing to acknowledge that people may have more updated figures than me, but this does not affect the overall point made.

Love it.