Data from Finland from 2002-05

Fair enough, there's some interesting analysis of that data too



and relating to the patriarchal society Scoll mentioned previously



from here

You need feminism to pick one of two costumes?

Nice try! :lol:

Yea thats about right

Scoll you sound like you've had your brain rotted by taking too many gender studies course.

I've dealt with people- men mainly- who work for the Family Court and they are the biggest anti-father, anti-nuclear family c***ts there are.

All with many units in "gender studies".

My advice to anyone confronted with a male employee in Family Court's Mediation services dispute is to have the pr**k removed from your case ASAP.

I work for an employee which has won numerous awards for employing women. In fact 15 years ago they had an unwritten policy of NOT hiring males, even if they were better qualified.

15 years later we have a management crisis because too few females want management responsibility, or the hours, or the additional training required to earn promotion. Oh and guess who's leave applications get knocked back..it aint the Ms's of our business.

I've read that in Sweden there is growing anger about exactly where feminism has led men.

We will have equality when the contribution of men to family and society is appreciated by feminism.

Many of the things women enjoy just would not happen if it wasn't for men.

Its men that pay off most of the family mortgage, its men that pay most of the taxes which goes towards paying for the building, transportation, roads, hospitals, its men that do the dirty, dangerous, physical jobs, its men that offer physical protection to women and children at the home, and in war.

Its well and good to bleat on about how hard women have because they have to put a bowl of cereal in front of the kids each morning, drive the 4wd 15 mins to school, have coffee with the girls, then cook a crappy meal in the evening and the odd vacuum and put out a load of washing or dishwasher.

OTOH its mostly men that end up paying for the roof over their heads, the food on their plate, the clothes on their back, the holidays, the full-maintained car, health insurance etc. Yes-its STILL this way, and it conforms what everyone except for you seems to know: Feminism is their to make men subservient and to give women freedom to do whatever they wnat to be "happy" whatever "happy" means this month.

And on divorce, the wife automagically starts at 50% share, and gets a 15% addition per kid.

Equality? Really!!

I've taken zero, I am capable of empathy and reasoned observation of our current society. I suggest visiting gender studies classes as I have seen people have their eyes opened by how they aren't all man-haters and how institutionalised sexism is still very present.

What are your examples of family court practitioners, and evidence that they have taken gender studies? The family court is most definitely broken, and it is because it is patriarchal. The irony is that this severely disadvantages men. Part of wanting equality is also wanting the courts to realise that care shouldn't default to the mother, and the father shouldn't be seen as the breadwinner.


Your employer's alleged unwritten policy is inherently sexist, and costs the business whilst being patronising towards women. If a business is truly equal opportunity, it will attract and hire capable women. By hiring to look good, they leave themselves open to hiring workers who have poor work ethic and no desire to seek promotion (and these types of worker are equally male when you consider the workforce as a whole, you will get skewed numbers if you hire one gender however.)

If legitimate leave requests are being knocked back based on gender, that is sexism and feminists oppose this. A lot of these problems stem from seeing women wanting to be seen as equals as a "problem" that you can just apply a patch to and everything is rosy. The women aren't the problem, the system is.


Everyone understands why yes doesn't always mean yes, right?

Just in case: consent cannot be given if the person is of unsound mind (through temporary inebriation or through a disability) or not capable of giving consent (ie: a minor). "She said yes" has been used as a defence to rape in those situations before (and can quite often be successful in the first case! It is very hard to prosecute rape :()

Have you considered why men have a burden of financial expectation?

They get paid more, they traditionally get the better jobs, society and media reinforce the stereotype that boys need to grow up to be a professional and women need to grow up to find a man and have kids.

You can't say "we can't have equality because we don't have equality".

Equality is enabling men to do those things you deem luxuries by giving women the opportunity to pursue the things men are expected to do but have been traditionally denied of women. We are gradually creeping towards it but we can't just throw up our arms and say "this is bullshit, it doesn't work."

Please read your post again, and try and put yourself in the shoes of a woman who wants to contribute to society outside of the home, and think about how you would feel if someone said that to you.

Feminism is not about making men subservient. It is deeply saddening that you have such a negative view of women that you believe that.

Scoll, do you think it is harder to be the money maker of the family or simple raising the children and looking after the husband? Women have it far easier in society, there are tangible incentives to get them employed, and they are benefited by a patriarchal judicial system.

The only place women really have a right to complain are shitholes like the Middle-East.

Do you think women should not be allowed to be the money maker?

Do you think women are inferior to men?

Do you think women as a whole want to be home-makers?

There are incentives to patriarchal institutions to hire women because there exists a traditional belief that they do not belong in the workforce, despite modern understanding that they are equally capable given the same opportunities.

Is it right for a man of colour to not be allowed to sit where he wants on the bus because he doesn't live 1000 miles southwest where he is liable to be lynched?

Is it therefore right to limit a woman's ability to work where she pleases because 15,000km away women aren't allowed to work at all?

It isn't actually easier to be a women in our society, but that doesn't mean it is actually easy to be a man. The grass is always greener, but when you have to constantly deal with social pressures about maintaing an accepted level of beauty, with ingrained bias at work (and as evidenced here, in society), with a lack of respect for your opinions, with an expectation to go through (the rather excruciating act of) childbirth as soon as possible ON TOP of trying to earn a living, get an education and maintain your family and social circles- which are burdens in themselves.

I'm not saying being born a man guarantees you a gold ticket to a fantastic, whirlwind orgy of a super-awesome life. It does give you advantages in our society though. You may still end up with shit on a stick, life sucks some times (and for some people, a lot of the time.)

All this debate is making me hungry but thanks to feminism I have to make my own damn sandwich ffs

Well, this technically means I've been raped multiple times... :lol:

1) Men also have to maintain an accepted level of beauty.
2) The bias at work is not "ingrained", I have witnessed it first hand and from storys from family members.
3) I respect women's opinions, speak for yourself.
4) No one expects women to go through childbirth as soon as possible.
5) Men also try to earn a living.
6) Men also try and get an education
7) Men also try and maintain a family.
8) Men also try and maintain social circles.

But because they're women, they should not have to deal with problems men do right?

Men have beauty standards, but aren't punished as harshly for not attaining them. Having a rough face or a gut as a man damages your potential far less than as a woman. Plus, it is perfectly acceptable for a man to shave as much or as little of his body as he likes, whereas women are expected to remove body hair or be labelled ugly. Men can wear clothes that disguise their figure without being called frumpy. Men can wear thongs outside the beach/pool without being labelled white trash.

There is absolutely no way that men have it anywhere near as bad as women when it comes to expectations of beauty.


You know what ingrained means, right? It means established, deep rooted. There is an ingrained bias against women in the business world. Society has acknowledged this and attempted to weed it out, but the job isn't done.


You have emphatically shown that you have no respect for women.


Sorry, but society does. As soon as women are in a committed relationship the questions begin from family, extended family, friends and strangers: "So, when are you planning on having a baby then?"


There are two classic Simpsons moments that sum this up, one with Homer making the "whoosh" over his head and the other Rainier Wolfcastle dead-panning at the comedy night "Dat's the joke"

Women have to deal with the same issues as men on top of unrealistic societal expectation.

Sexual assault is a murky area, and I'm not going to open another can of worms here after unleashing the whole anti-feminism brigade on me (:P), but it is actually plausible! Not necessarily true that you were, but if someone took advantage of you in an intoxicated state then yeah- you may have been sexually assaulted :)

Maintaining hygiene, a basic standard of beauty, having a baby at some point in their lives (Which is the womens job) in considered "unrealistic". ](*,)



"Disagreeing with me means that you just hate women!"

Edited by 433: 5/12/2013 08:52:48 PM

Mainly religious based reasons.

@Scoll.

Most of the issue that feminists describe as discrimination originate in one inescapable fact: Life when its all said and done is about reproduction, and the facts of human reproduction is that women have babies.

Women make themselves look physically attractive- and by attractive we really mean fit and healthy looking from the point of being a good selection to have sex with and ultimately as a mother

Men makes themselves look attractive as a mate by appearing physically accomplished, and aspiring to be high earners, because thats what is needed to support the raising of children.


Pressures exist on both sides, because that's what survival entails. Society has just dressed it up so that made it appears more sophisticated and less overt.

Ultimately, life's purpose is to ensure that it continues. Think of it like that and everything makes sense.


However the roles for men and women in raising the next generation are different, and complementary. This is a principle that is apparrant throughout nature beyond humanity

The difference between men and feminists is that men mostly accept and welcome their role. Well, they used to.

Feminists talk about choice, but what they are saying is, we'll have the kids if and we when we want, on our own or with a man if we choose so..but then want tax-payer support for IVF when they've left it to late... then if they have them, they want to paid for having them, they then want governments and tax payers and private business to pay for the cost of caring for the kid after they're born so they can "have a career", over and above the costs of educating and keeping them healthy.

And then if a mother so chooses, out goes the father. She then dictates what if any relationship he can have with his children, she demands the bulk of joint property.

You talk of freeing women -and men from these expectations as being the true aim of feminism. Well that aim is at odds with a system for raising the next generation that seems to be natural. What we are then left with is endless cycle of problems to fix, all pushing the responsibility of raising kids onto someone else. The buck has to stop somewhere!

I feel sorry for today's young men-my son will be 18 in a few months. Why would anyone sign up to get fucked over in every aspect of their lives: emotional, financial, career, parenting. I am glad these discussions are happening. Men are finally waking up to it all, they're organising and they're learning to "play the game".

The pendulum has swung way too far and is due for correction.

Edited by stefcep: 5/12/2013 11:28:51 PM

=d>

Scoll, you claimed women are equally capable when given equal opportunities in one of your posts.

This is just wrong, men are stronger than women and are better suited to physical work. It is an unavoidable fact. Women probably are also better at other things. This does not mean that women are any less than men, it just means they are less suited to those jobs. Just like a 7 foot person is more suited to be a basketball player than a 5 foot person who would be more suited to being a jockey. Women cannot be everything a man can be and men cannot be everything a women can be.

Scoll, you're a spud. You start off in a thread talking about why men are avoiding marriage and make it about feminism and now you've made it about consensual sex.

Sounds about par for a feminist argument.

And don't forget every other country where the mother defaults to primary carer in a ridiculously high percentage of cases. A recent survey in the US found that the father won primary custody in just 10% of cases.

R u fucking kidding me?



Please don't minimise rape thank you. The whole intoxicated thing is more about individuals getting others drunk just so that they can have sex with them, or using the fact that they're drunk to take advantage of them doing things they wouldn't if they were sober. You can definitely give consent when you're drunk. It's probably a "murky area" because women can (and do) exploit it, claiming they were raped when they were drunk, when in reality they just regret having sex.

I hope you didn't think you were being funny when you were posting that image though 433.

Though poorly expressed, 433 has a point.

Just like women are expected to maintain a certain level of make-up in public and groom body hair, men are expected to be clean-shaven (or groom any facial hair) and keep other body hair trimmed, if not shaven.

I get more phone numbers at work when I'm cleanshaven & wearing a shirt and tie than when I'm wearing a t-shirt and jeans and have stubble, this could just be a bizarre phenomenon but I'd contend that there's a standard of grooming applied to men in the 21st century just as much as there is to women.

And as for having babies being the "womens job"...it's not like the men can do it :lol:

I don't disagree with any of that, of course men are held to certain standards too, I was more meaning that it's absolutely ridiculous for him to imply that the only expectation of women regarding looks is to shower.

There's more to hygiene than just a splash about in the shower.

Kiwi, you never know what standards 433 has ;)

Scoll, it's difficult to know where to even start. Your argument that modern feminism is about equality is simply bullshit. Most expect and demand 'equality' but as soon as something gets to hard and society refuses to give them a leg up then we (men) all become misogynistic bastards.

However telling a feminist this would also make me a misogynistic bastard...

LOL, you've given me a lecture in your first sentence, then basically reiterated my point.