I have legitimately seen water divination work. Watching service locators find buried pipes that aren't on DBYD plans is a regular occurrence. I didn't buy into it until I saw it first hand.

Anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal. (And subject to confirmation bias.)

Perhaps you should direct these blokes to the Australian skeptics so they can collect a very large pot of prize money that has been unclaimed for decades?

http://www.skeptics.com.au/publications/articles/australian-skeptics-divining-test/

One thing must be made clear — dowsers on the whole are very honest folk. They believe in what they do. Unfortunately their belief is poorly placed. They CANNOT perform as they think they can. Having a string of successful wells to which one can point, proves nothing. A better test would be to ask the dowser whether he can find a DRY spot within 100 metres of a well he has dowsed. With more than 90% of the world’s land mass above reachable supplies of water, this should be quite difficult.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing

http://www.undeceivingourselves.org/S-divi.htm This website shows they perform no better than chance.




Edited by MUNRUBENMUZ: 24/4/2015 09:43:34 AM

Sorry it must be false because I didn't take a video specifically to show you how our locator can pick up PVC water pipes.

I don't really care what you think, I have watched it happen on numerous occasions.

Alternative medicine doesn't work. Alternative medicine that does work becomes medicine after there is evidence to back it up.

Well you've seen it so that's good enough for me.

Once again. Direct your water divining mates to the Australian skeptics to claim their prize.

Take a 10% cut if you're so confident.

There's a reason it's unclaimed.

It's amusing how people always assume that personal experience is anecdotal evidence. I don't think it's evidence, just personal experience. I understand scepticism.

I've seen water pipes found with two pieces of wire. Finding deep groundwater to please the skeptics may be more difficult.

That's why the gold standard for evidence is double, blind, randomised trials.

If it truly works then there should be no problem.

The process we follow is thus:

- Dial before you dig to see approximately where it is.
- Use the wires to locate it.
- Confirm by vacuum excavation.

The wires have never let us down.

I remember a thing on a current affair where they buried water bottles and got a few blokes to try and find them.

I can only comment on what I see.

Which is why it is anecdotal evidence and not "proper" evidence and as such needs to be noted but ultimately rejected.

Sorry, that's how science works.

Once again it's not evidence but rather just experience.

Stop treating it as such to toot your own horn.

You're missing the point. If you can believe something like that, and you're fairly educated, and think it's valid, is it no wonder that morons get sucked in by peanuts like this Belle Gibson shelia or anti-vaxxers or homeopaths?

There's a lot of outrage at this woman, (maybe because she's a prettty white girl) who as I have said is despicable, but every day of the week "alternative medicines" are doing major harm around the place.

Perhaps this website may enlighten you. http://whatstheharm.net/

It's not a belief. Belief assumes acceptance in the absence of evidence. For me, the evidence is in the fact that I have personally watched water pipes without tracers on them found using wire. It's not what I would submit as evidence to convince others.

This woman has conned people who were desperate. Alternative medicines offer false hope.

This quote pyramid is getting out of control.

Are you sure you weren't conned?

:lol: let it go. I can't be arsed having this conversation with you.

I think it's funny how you compare a con artist who lied about having cancer with jobs like chiropracto, herbalist and the local Chinese acupuncture lady. I mean how long can one draw a bow?

Because they're con artists too.

When a chiropractor or naturapath recommends alternative treatments instead of chemotherapy they are no better than this sheila. People can and do die because they see these "professionals" instead of seeking proper medical attention.

She misrepresented herself as someone who had cancer who knew something about food.

They misrepresent themselves as health care professionals.

They are far worse than her by a long shot.

Again, go here and read up on some of these wankers. www.whatstheharm.net

How come you're not feigning mock outrage at these other clowns?

chinese medicine has been used since the dawn of time and is older than western medicine yet you compare it to belle gibson.


mate you are off the rails.

and how are you qualified to suggest alternative medicine is a scam.

i know a lot of people who say acupuncture works for them. or are you gonna call bullshit on them as well

Edited by Socawho: 24/4/2015 02:33:39 PM

they are different to say someone like pete evans whos paleo diet has been slanmed by doctors.


Edited by Socawho: 24/4/2015 02:35:00 PM

I don't think chiropractors, herbalists and the local Chinese acupuncture lady are particularly vociferous in turning people against conventional evidence based medicines. I haven't hear of that happening and I don't see why they can't co-exist. It may be difficult to establish the efficacy of such treatments because pharmaceutical companies are unwilling to pour millions of research dollars into them but that doesn't ipso facto make them bunkum. Personally never I've sought those alternative treatments but if some people derive a placebo or indeed actual benefit by trying out those treatments I'm not going to rail against something I've never tried. If those practitioners are actively telling their clients not to seek out evidence based medicine then are doing the wrong thing, but what was particularly pernicious about Belle case was she deliberately and willfully lied about having cancer, lied about curing it, and misappropriated money that was meant to charity to fund her lavish lifestyle. Those who rail against conventional medicine might just be ignorant and stupid but in the case of Belle Gibson her motives were far more pernicious, selfish and greedy and that's why her name and not the local Chinese acupuncture lady was spread across the headlines.

It's not "me" calling bullshit on these therapies champ. It's SCIENCE !

Hey, aboriginal bush medicine has been around for 40 000 years. Are you going to go off to your local shaman when you get a tumour? Because aboriginal medicine is older it must be better than Chinese medicine based on your logic.

Just because something is 1000's of years old doesn't make it right.

There's a reason life expectancy has quadrupled in a few centuries and it's not due to fucking acupuncture and essential oils.

Once again you blokes prove you can't read and miss the point.

If you are gullible enough to believe a 23 (or 25 depending on what story you believe) year old book spruiking, app wielding sheila has to say rather than your doctor then you're a candidate for the Darwin awards.

The reason "alternative" practitioners are more dangerous than this girl is because they actually look like they have a real education, are given credibility by google mummy doctors, pharmicists who peddle their snake oil and TV shows like Oprah and ACA.

If you care so much, jump up and down about them because they present a far more insidious danger to the uneducated masses.




Edited by MUNRUBENMUZ: 24/4/2015 03:08:15 PM

Did you even visit the website?

http://whatstheharm.net/acupuncture.html
http://whatstheharm.net/herbalremedies.html
http://whatstheharm.net/chiropractic.html

http://sciencebasedmedicine.org

And BTW any alternative therapist who practices without peer reviewed, double blind studies and a mountain of evidence to suggest that their therapies have some credence, and that's practically all of them, is a fucking liar.

Every day of the week people are put in harms way because of these people.

Here's chiropractors just for starters.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/chiropractors-pushing-antivaccination-line-face-crackdown-audits-20130808-2rkof.html
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/chiropractic-pediatrics-firmly-in-the-anti-vaccination-camp/
https://theconversation.com/having-a-crack-what-do-chiropractors-know-about-vaccinations-2943
http://edzardernst.com/2014/07/why-so-many-chiropractors-advise-against-immunisation/

Anyone who uses the term 'uneducated masses' is 9/10ths of the way on the road to being an unbearable asshole.

Just a bunch of anecdotes.

If I could list every person who was hurt, maimed or killed by conventional treatment it would chew up the entire internet.

So if I'm reading this right......

Some doctors bag out Pete Evans so that means Pete Evan's paleo diet is bad?

But some doctors bag out acupuncture and it may work for others so that means acupuncture is not bad?

Have I got that right?

OK. Glad I've got that sorted.

To conclude: Some "alternative" therapies are legit based on something something mumble mumble.




Edited by MUNRUBENMUZ: 24/4/2015 03:26:21 PM

Right.

You win then.

Cheers.

Go to this article here

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-02-21/schwager-war-against-natural-medicine/3840682

Clearly it isn't as clear cut as you want it to be. Note that one in 300 hospital admissions leads to death, I wonder what the kill rate is for herbalists and the local Chinese acupuncture lady? Probably nowhere near as high.

Also interesting to see that a third of doctors openly refer their patients for alternative treatment. Does this your mind make them as bad as Belle Gibson?

Science is great and all that but it isn't complete, nor infallible, nor impervious to commercial influence.

+1 . if chinese or alternative medicines were really that harmful i dont think it would have stood the test of time since it would be outed as been purely ineffective. sure sometimes it works ansmd sometimes it doesnt but you can say the same about chemo which doesnt guarantee a cure.
but the point is its not about choosing ine or the other. there can be hybrid solution depending on what the doctor recommends, but mumbruz conpletely missed the point when comparing it to Belle Gibson who concocted her ideas out of thin air purely for decietful reasons as opposed to practioners who invested many centuries worth of knowledge and devotion to understand what remedies can assist with ailments .


Edited by Socawho: 24/4/2015 09:22:48 PM

100% per cent of people that die in their sleep at home don't make a recovery.

Of course people die in hospital. It's where you go when you're bloody well dying.





Nice selective quoting. "would refer to practitioners that they knew they achieved results"

That's a lot different from one third of doctors refer there patients to practitioners. (But you knew that.)



Correct, correct and correct. But it is subject to peer review, randomised double blind trials and is evidence based.

As for Ms Schwager, the author, no wonder she's writing a dissenting article, she's a friggin chiropractor.

I notice that that little fact wasn't disclosed by Ms Schwager. Nor is it disclosed on the link that says "view her full profile here".

If there's nothing to hide why is she hiding?

Here's my question to any practitioner of "alternative" therapies. If they work, and they could work, then subject them to proper scientific rigour, publish your results, get them peer reviewed and make your case.

They won't because they can't.

Clearly it isn't as clear cut as you want it to be

Google iridology and homeopathy and come back to me about who is concocting ideas out of thin air.

And BTW you can buy homeopathic remedies in a pharmacy so they must work. Right?

It sure is a stretch of epic proportions to link what Belle Gibson did with the local Chinese acupuncture lady or Dennis the Chiropractor.

I agree alternative methods although not based on pharmaceutical company funded scientific evidence have been the first line of treatment, developed and refined for thousands of years, so perhaps there is some efficacy to them, although perhaps as not as much as conventional medicines.

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