Then publish the results Russ and be done with it.

It couldn't be simpler. PUBLISH THE RESULTS.

They can't because they don't work.

Fucking Chinese medicine is responsible for almost single handedly wiping out several dozen marvellous African mammals due to their backward arse thinking and beliefs.

I suppose it's ok to shoot up tigers, elephants, rhinos and bears and grinding up their bits because they've been doing it for hundreds of years and some old crone in a village, untouched by electricity or running water or sewerage, somehow knows more than a university educated doctor.

Pull your head out your arse.

now you have really gone off tangent😂😂😂😂

the killing of animals for medicinal use is a topic for another day.



Edited by Socawho: 24/4/2015 10:51:01 PM

How so?

You've got skin in the game turbo, you defend them.

Hundreds of years of accumulated knowledge went into grinding up that tiger penis.

Here's another article then by Forbes, take a look.

www.forbes.com/sites/leahbinder/2013/09/23/stunning-news-on-preventable-deaths-in-hospitals/

According to this medical errors are the the third leading cause of death in the US. How many has the local Chinese acupuncture lady killed? Probably not as many.

The point isn't that hospitals and conventional treatment are bad, rather that it isn't perfect and does occasionally kill people due to mismanagement, incompetence or complications that are too vast to name.
You take the good with the bad and accept that in the evolution and pursuit to better treatment there are going to fuck ups. So a bunch of anecdotes of someone suffering a heart attack due to being served herbal tea doesn't make the entire field of alternative medicine pernicious and devoid of purpose.

Now as for doctors referring their patients to practitioners that they knew would achieve results that's kind of a no brainer isn't it? You wouldn't refer someone with a bad back to a chiropractor who had a history of turning his patients into quadriplegics. The point is that GPs aren't universally against alternatives medicines, and in a third of cases refer their patients to such practitioners, naturally who would achieve results, as any sensible GP would do.

In terms of subjecting the field of alternative medicines to scientific rigour you have to remember there is hardly any research money going into the field, as pharma companies aren't driven by doing research into providing better health outcomes in the community rather by r&d which can then be use to transform knowledge into treatment which are then sold to hospitals, chemists and public for profit. Sometimes as well the studies they do do don't establish a clear medical benefit, but that doesn't mean that the treatment option definitively has no medical benefit, rather that the studies failed to establish a benefit, or due to the subjective nature of the treatment the benefits might be highly individualised or mitigated by the placebo affect, or even possibly a hidden agenda or conformation bias by those conducting the research to undermine the alternative medicine industry. in any case the placebo affect is well established in medical and scientific literature so if alternative treatments are effective in yielding the placebo they cannot be written off entirely as worthless.

I'm not overly excited about double blind, randomised trials being the only basis for medical treatment, as surely our current knowledge of whats possible is infantile and we are really just at the tip of the iceberg, as well as lacking funds to explore everything we want to know. I'm not overly excited by alternative treatments either but I just mostly see them as naive and improbable, but as I've never really experienced them so I cannot rule them out entirely or put down others who seek out that treatment path and may have experienced success. It's all about having an open mind and not being entirely dictated by research and studies which although may the best guide for which to find things out don't answer all our questions.

Sorry but a third that "would" is a lot different from a third that "do".

Maybe a third "would" be open to referring their patients to "alternative" practitioners if they were confident those treatments work. Of that third we have no idea how many actually do refer their patients. Maybe it's the full 100%, maybe it's 10%, maybe it's none.



The alternative therapy industry in Australia is worth at least $4 billion annually in Australia alone. Seems there is a large enough market and enough money to publish a few results and run a few trials. Who knows what it would be worth in the US. Probably 50 times that but lets say conservatively 10 times. That's $40 billion a year.

You have to wonder why, if there's that much money washing around in these therapies, there aren't any studies or results being published.

Perhaps Russ, if we apply a bit of Occam's razor, they don't want results published and trials conducted lest they be found out to be ineffectual?



Sounds very tin foil hat. I take it all those vaccines that "big pharma" are producing are somehow increasing their bottom line over treating the symptoms of pertussis, measles, mumps, rubella, polio etc. Wouldn't there be more money in treating the symptoms of those diseases than wiping them out altogether?



As opposed to what? Anecdotal evidence? It may not be perfect but that's why they call it the "gold standard" when it comes to testing of efficacy.



Yes but science will get us over the line to understanding all of this not casting horoscopes and giving someone 1 part of peanut to 1 billion parts of water to alleviate a peanut allergy as is the case for some folks seeking treatments.



Have an open mind. Just make sure it's not so open that your brain falls out.

And hot off the press today here's what happens when a uneducated, google blogger garners a following amongst the scientific illiterate public.

http://www.smh.com.au/business/retail/diet-pepsi-dumps-aspartame-as-consumer-backlash-hurts-sales-20150425-1msz1b.html

You can google the foodbabe for a look in to the US experience. Fortunately the sciencebabe ( http://www.scibabe.com/ ) and others ( http://sciencebasedparenting.com/ & http://groundedparents.com/category/health/ ) are slowly fighting back.

Ear candling and iridology might be fairly harmless to you but every time someone believes this stuff science is knocked down a peg or two and the anti-vaxxers and the other nut jobs are climbing the credibility ladder slowly eroding public confidence.

Ultimately people die because this sort of rubbish isn't rebutted forcefully and at every opportunity.

How a pharmacist can sell homeopathic remedies, and sleep well at night, is beyond me.





Edited by MUNRUBENMUZ: 25/4/2015 06:19:15 PM

But wait......it's thousands of years old!!!!

http://www.news.com.au/national/aidan-fenton-7-vomited-and-died-after-slapping-therapy/story-fncynjr2-1227329512272

POLICE have launched an investigation into a Chinese healer after the death of a young diabetic boy who attended a “slapping therapy” workshop.

Aidan Fenton, 7, was getting treatment from the ­alternative Chinese medicine workshop at the Tasly Healthpac Centre in Hurstville when he died, the Daily Telegraph reported.

Police have spoken to a Chinese therapist Hongchi Xiao who ­advocates the use of slapping therapy — until ­patients are bruised — to cure ­illnesses and rid the body of poisons. The week- long therapy cost $1800.

Detectives are investigating whether Aidan was taken off his insulin before his death.

Mr Xiao, who hosted seminars at the workshop, left the country after being questioned by police.

It is believed Mr Xiao claimed participants in the seminar were asked to fast for three days and to undertake the slapping and stretching exercises that can prompt vomiting and dizzy spells, known as a “healing crisis”.

Aidan was among those vomiting during the seminar, the Daily Telegraph reported.

The newspaper said Aidan looked well during the ­seminar and had eaten rice but became ill on Monday evening after Mr Xiao had gone to dinner.

He was found unconscious about 9pm on Monday in his bed at the Hurstville Ritz Hotel, where the family had been staying with his parents, Geoff and Lily Fenton. Hotel staff rushed to help them after hearing screams coming from the room.

Aidan died on the way to hospital.

A line of inquiry for police is whether the “healer” ­advised the parents to take Aidan off ­insulin and encouraged alternative therapies to treat him, including massages and the slapping.

Detectives questioned Mr Xiao before he left the country and spent yesterday taking statements from witnesses.

A police spokeswoman told news.com.au this morning police were conducting inquiries on behalf of the Coroner and would not say if they were speaking to other seminar participants.

A post-mortem on the boy would need to be carried out to determine exactly what killed him.

Neighbours said the parents were too traumatised by Aidan’s death to speak about it. “All we can hear is them crying all the time ... They were such good parents, it is really hard to understand why it happened and how it happened.”

Another neighbour said Aidan was a “beautiful, really good boy”.

Mr Xiao had been in Sydney following a tour of New Zealand to promote his “Paida-Lajin” therapy, which involves slapping the body until it bruises to “unblock meridians and drive out poisons”.

He has written several books on Chinese medicine and travelled the globe spruiking his slapping therapy.

“The greater the pain and bruises while slapping means there is more poison inside the body,” he told a seminar in South Africa last year. “You can be your own doctor. We were all born with a self-­healing power but we simply ignore it and spend millions of dollars paying for medications. Nature heals, doctors are only assistants.”

However, he has been surrounded by controversy before.

In 2011, Taiwanese authorities deported Xiao and fined him $US1600 for violating medical regulations, while Chinese media reports say a liver cancer patient paid him $A40000 for treatment, only to die three months later.

Aidan’s death will be referred to the Coroner, who will determine whether there is any evidence of medical malpractice.





Edited by MUNRUBENMUZ: 1/5/2015 10:49:19 AM

where does it say its a 1000 years old? and yes there are fraudsters out there, but you seem to think all alternatve medicine. practioners are frauds. you cant tell me can you. and i suppose accupuncture is a sham as well even though people claim its done more harm than good for them. you dont realise some western medicine is derived from eastern ones. look at the product called dencorub and the chinese oil called wood lock. its the same shit but labelled differently...oh but because dencorub is westernized it makes it legit . your ignorance is highly profound

so i suppose every single doctor out there or practitioner of western medicine is 100 percenr legit.

Edited by Socawho: 1/5/2015 12:57:35 PM

Hey cobber do you know what they call alternative medicine that works?

Medicine.


Whaaaaat?!

Alternative medicine is used in a holistic sense, its not used to go and cure stuff its used to improve a person's quality of life
You can't go and knock alternative practices because they have no empirical evidence to cure diseases as that's not what they are for (and 9 times out of 10 aren't claimed to do so), same as how you can't just go and say that it single-handedly cured what ails you

this so much. My mother in law used traditional medicine in conjuction with dialysis . Her doctors suggested she keep on doing it as it does help . And her practioner said always listen to your doctor and take what ever course of medicines he prescribes.

so explain this to me...and you didnt answer my question.
the product dencorub is a western treatment used for muscle aches and pain.
the product called Woodlock is an alternative chinese oil ointment used to treat the same symptoms as the above. Woodlock was invented way before dencorub
Both products contain essentially Exactly the same ingredients. So just because Dencorub is reskinned as a Western medicine it somehow makes it morr valid than Woodluck because it is westernized.
I just showed your argument to be full of holes.

you think people have to choose one or the other, where doctors can often prescribe both. you are a complete dope.

Edited by Socawho: 1/5/2015 06:43:37 PM

Edited by Socawho: 1/5/2015 06:44:55 PM

Which is crucially different to what this Xiao bloke did, allegedly, so that's fine.

If I remember my primary school Mandarin correctly, Xiao means "small", lol.

Everyone gets a free smash or she goes to prison.

Alternative bondage.

You couldn't show me holes in a Swiss cheese factory.

I did answer your question. Alternative medicine that works is called medicine.

Wacko for Dencorub and the Chinese original.

Now answer my question from before which you conveniently glossed over.

Chinese medicine is responsible for almost single handedly wiping out several dozen marvellous African mammals due to their backward arse thinking and beliefs.

I suppose it's ok to shoot up tigers, elephants, rhinos and bears and grinding up their bits because they've been doing it for hundreds of years and some old crone in a village, untouched by electricity or running water or sewerage, somehow knows more than a university educated doctor.

No but I'll take my chances with the 99 out of the 100 doctors than are legit over the 0 out of 100 iridoligists, reflexolgists or a homeopaths that are.

are you that upitiy to not try alternative medicines. yes there are some shonky ones out there but there is also shonky doctors out there too. If the chinese and asians can use traditional medicines for thousands of years than thats good enough for me .

I'm sure some of you blokes can't (or for some reason refuse to) read.

Here's what I said earlier on the page before.

It's not "me" calling bullshit on these therapies champ. It's SCIENCE !

Hey, aboriginal bush medicine has been around for 40 000 years. Are you going to go off to your local shaman when you get a tumour? Because aboriginal medicine is older it must be better than Chinese medicine based on your logic.

Just because something is 1000's of years old doesn't make it right.

There's a reason life expectancy has quadrupled in a few centuries and it's not due to fucking acupuncture and essential oils.

Once again you blokes prove you can't read and miss the point.

If you are gullible enough to believe a 23 (or 25 depending on what story you believe) year old book spruiking, app wielding sheila has to say rather than your doctor then you're a candidate for the Darwin awards.

The reason "alternative" practitioners are more dangerous than this girl is because they actually look like they have a real education, are given credibility by google mummy doctors, pharmicists who peddle their snake oil and TV shows like Oprah and ACA.

If you care so much, jump up and down about them because they present a far more insidious danger to the uneducated masses.

and theres the problem right there...you think 99 out of 100 doctors are legit....oh has anyone told you there are imcompetent doctors as well?
you think we live in a black and white world. thats only the start of your delusion


Edited by Socawho: 1/5/2015 09:47:39 PM

If an Asian thinks that ground up Rhino horn is better than viagra are you OK with that?

I mean it's a "traditional" medicine that's been around for 100's if not thousands of years.

Is that OK with you or do you think that sort of bullshit should be called out.

I'm making a list of people that can't read and miss the point and you're top of the list.

The point was that 0 out of 100 iridoligists, reflexologists and homeopaths aren't legit. Not that a few qualified doctors aren't out of the 1000's that are..

Where's my African animals answer BTW?

i dont think you appreciate the notion that if alternative medicines didnt work with the majority with most people then people wouldnt continue to use it. and just because someone is university qualified doesnt mean that they are the most reliable as well...doctors do make mistakes or a capable of negligence...but that doesnt apply in your world.

you are so off the beaten track that you would still find yourself off course on an autobahn.

im done talking with you.

Edited by Socawho: 1/5/2015 09:58:18 PM

Perfect.

I see you refuse to return the courtesy of answering my question so I'll leave you with this from before.

Here's my question to any practitioner of "alternative" therapies. If they work, and they could work, then subject them to proper scientific rigour, publish your results, get them peer reviewed and make your case.

Thousands of years history, millions of adherents, anecdotal evidence coming out the wazoo so really it shouldn't be a problem.

Do the trials, publish the results them and be done with it.

They won't because they can't.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/health/alarm-bells-sound-on-registration-of-chinese-medicine-20120401-1w6mo.html
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/conservation/bits-of-black-bear-found-in-chinese-medicine-20120412-1wwx6.html
http://www.smh.com.au/environment/animals/chinese-medicine-proves-disastrous-for-manta-rays-20121019-27wrg.html
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/chinese-medicine-practitioner-suspended-over-pig-intestine-mixup-20150105-12hiw8.html

What the fuck are you on about? They do release studies on tradiontal medicines ffs. Even doctors recommend you use alternative therapies . You ignore my post about my mother in law. Which her doctor and her practioner suggest that she does both and her practioner saying listen to your doctor. you sir are close minded to alot of things.

Regulation could help to weed out unacceptable practices, said Professor Jersmann, who has co-authored an article on the issue in today's MJA Insight.

But this had to be balanced against the risk of giving tacit government support to a field that was not supported by scientific evidence gained through rigorously controlled clinical trials.

''[size=8]If research is conducted that shows it works, we'd welcome that. We're not emotionally opposed to it[/size],'' said Professor Jersmann, who wrote the article with a neurophysiologist, Marcello Costa.

Chinese medicine practitioners often argue their therapies have the virtue of a long history of accepted use. [size=8]But, Professor Jersmann said, ''the length of time is immaterial. Where is the evidence people haven't died? We want certainty whether it works or not.'[/size]

http://www.smh.com.au/national/health/alarm-bells-sound-on-registration-of-chinese-medicine-20120401-1w6mo.html

One person's anecdote is not a study.

Please link me a peer reviewed traditional medicine study. That'd be great.

so are you suggesting that I lied? My mother in law lied that her doctors lied ?

Damn your hated everywhere you post son.

No I'm not.

I am saying that one person's anecdote is not evidence of anything.

If I stub my toe tonight someone, somewhere will have their cancer go into remission. Did I cause that to happen?