I've also read comments about overseas batters' opinions playing in Australia - Kiwis and Poms.

They think it is easy for batting, because the pitches are usually very true. They also claim because of the heat, bowlers often tire in the last session.

Recently in England it was a challenge for our batters, because  they never felt in. English bowlers didn't tire in cooler conditions. There was always the possibility of more clouds moving over the ground that made the ball swing.

Further to this discussion other than Victoria's Ahmad, I'm not sure of one regular wrist spinner currently playing Shield cricket. 

Australian players are struggling to pick Sri Lanka's Sandrakman's googly. They need more experience against wrist and finger spinners on spin friendly Shield pitches in every game they play.

Pretty persuasive post, Grazor.


Batters with low averages at Shield level indicates some degree of bowler friendly Shield pitches. I suppose the question has to be asked - what type of bowlers?

The only trouble with becoming proficient in adjusting to bounce over swing and spin, is that bounce is more common in Australia compared to overseas wickets.

Once again though, you've made a pretty compelling argument, Grazor.

442s new format makes conversations like this pretty hard to have because I have no idea what part of each post you are replying too :D

can 442 management reintroduce quotes?

I'll do the quotes myself for readability
"Pretty persuasive post, Grazor.
Batters with low averages at Shield level indicates some degree of bowler friendly Shield pitches. I suppose the question has to be asked - what type of bowlers?"

I suspect it might be a talent/development problem that the bowlers of this generation are typical quality but the batters are slightly lower. I need to watch more sheild cricket but its impossible with my phd :( I would also like to know if anything has changed about development. Does anyone have information on this? Generations can go up or down
I'd like to see a breakdown of our top sheild batters and what their averages are, whether certain types of dismisalls are more common than usual, how averages compare to an innings of 20+ runs averages to see if its a concentration issue. Are wickets unusually high during key concentration moments? (first and last over of a day, over after a drinks break, first over of a new bowler, first few overs of a new ball). Do batsmen work the ball to rotate the strike after being beaten or beating the bowler with a dominant shot? (You need to look for a single after both)
Players who come into the australian team have poor innings management but Lehman seems to be good at coaching this. Still there were some soft dismissals against sri lanka (khawaja in particular in the 2nd innings). Bowler friendly pitches are all about a single player doing well. If you are playing an all rounder like marsh the odds of having that single good innings goes down because you are a batsmen short (people play an extra bowler at adelaide probably the extra bowler in sri lanka was wrong). So when a couple of players get out to silly shots thats a problem. Innings management reduces the probability of a silly shot. Even though Lehmann seems to coach this well (based on players improving in this when the play for australia for a while) I'd like to know why they don't seem to have this skill when they come in (maybe they are just adjusting to international cricket?). If this is a new skill they learn it would explain why a lot of players are getting out after starts. They aren't used to concentrating for long periods
How are innings managed at shield level?
Innings management is
play defensive for at least an over or two against a new ball, a new bowler, straight after drinks, start and end of a session
lift aggression against a tired bowler which means a pace bowler after the 4th cosequetive over or the spin bowler after a bunch of overs in a row (6-8 probably depending on the bowler)
try and get a quick single after you were beaten. You are often pyschologically rattled after being beaten and the bowler has momentum. A quick single means the pressure doesn't build
try to get a quick single after you hit a big shot so you don't get a rush of blood. This also mentally tires the bowler because they can't get revenge on you
Limit the number of maidens. 2 Consequetive maidens usually means a wicket isn't far away. Don't worry about the big shot use quick singles to relieve pressure.

Shane watson had the worst innings management of any player I have seen

"Further to this discussion other than Victoria's Ahmad, I'm not sure of one regular wrist spinner currently playing Shield cricket. 
Australian players are struggling to pick Sri Lanka's Sandrakman's googly. They need more experience against wrist and finger spinners on spin friendly Shield pitches in every game they play."

To develop wrist spinners you need to be willing to lose games at youth level.
The best wrist spinners at youth level have at least 1 ball an over that is a rank full toss/half tracker or bowled completely off the pitch. Your arm position when bowling wrist spin is such that without the spin it would go way over the bowlers head. The flick of the wrists serves to bring the ball down. But this is a fine tuning problem because if you get it slightly wrong you are very innacurate
This could be a development problem. Are youth teams willing to sacrifice results to play wrist spinners? Does anyone know?

Grazor, enjoy your cricket insights and knowledge, even though I am often clueless about responding to them!

Thanks mate
guesses and anecdotes are fine its a recreational forum

Shame to hear that
I heard that when warne was at the academy he was bowling balls down the legside every second ball!
People should play young leggies if they turn the ball a lot. It doesnt matter if they get hit for six, doesn't matter if they are a scatter gun. Those things can be learnt with age and if you have a crop of good turners one of them will grow up to be lethal and accurate then australia is much richer for it!

+1

Will  you encourage leggies even if the results  are not good in the short term?

Wow!

I've just noted that Inside Sports  has a specialist cricket section.

What say we continue these discussions there?

I've already seen some 442 regulars posting there.


There is also scope for specific cricket threads, plus there seem to be a few genuine cricket posters. 

Thoughts?

Gosh its almost all 442 people

only 3 threads by the looks of it?

Aside from Saxton Oval in Nelson, NZ that stadium in Galle is one of the picturesque cricket grounds in the world

Meanwhile thanks to a few unofficial channels, I am really enjoying the England v Pakistan series

Sri Lanka slowly pulling away now.

-PB

The better idea.

-PB

Done.

Thanks Jules.

Great stuff by the Windies last night. I thought for sure they were gone. Chase batted so well.

https://twitter.com/duncs_h/status/761084574768041984

Farken Burns gone on 2 balls.

Geez.

-PB

grazorblade

I agree with you that there are issues with development. But I think it's, partially, tied to the wickets. I respectfully disagree with you about the importance of various wickets.

"Rogers had plenty of bad series on moving wickets"

Not plenty of bad series. He has had an average Ashes series (the one before) in which all the Aussie players were incredibly average, which rather supports my point. I'm not saying that technique is the only thing. The dressing room was horrific at the time and it's like that didn't exactly help Rogers (or the others)

"the ball moved quite a bit in NZ and we did fine"

One swallow does not a summer make. How many Ashes series has Australia won in England since 2005?

It's disgraceful and it's, to a large extent, down to technical failings which previous Australian batsmen did not make nearly so often.

"This is after another generational change where smith and warner came into the side."

grazorblade, they have been appalling against the moving ball since about 2006. They have no idea what to do. This generational argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

"For the last 7 or so years very few have averaged over 40 in shield - the same pitches that people are complaining are too easy."

I would argue that, because they don't have the technique against tough bowling on tough wickets, general standards have slipped and that, in part accounts for lower averages.

As evidence, look to the contrast. Think of the 90s/early 2000s. Australia always had any number of Shield batsmen who would churn out runs in the Shield AND in County Cricket and still would not quite take the Australian Test side. They, mostly, had the technique and the temperament to do fantastically in all conditions. And, so, they did.

By contrast, our current batsmen, by and large, cannot do this.

"If the pitches were the problem rather than the talent of the generation (and possibly the development that lead to this generation)"

They're both the problem. And it's symbiotic. Because the pitches are basically for bowlers what McDonald's is for Americans, batsmen don't get the chance to develop their talent adequately. I'm not saying it's the only reason. But it plays no small part.

Batting in Test cricket is, first and foremost, about knowing when to leave the ball and when to play at it. Then it's a matter of playing the ball with soft hands, close to the body and getting the feet moving the body weight towards the pitch of the ball.

The current Australian method is plant the feet and throw your hands at the ball. If the pitches were less helpful, batsmen would learn that this is no good.

"But for some reason some here see the technique it takes to adjust to bounce as inferior to the technique it takes to adjust for swing or spin."

Because the technique it takes, to deal with really good swing, seam spin is superior to the technique it takes to deal with slightly more bounce (not talking really uneven bounce).

For average batsmen, pace can do for them. But good batsmen (like Alastair Cook) adjust to pace. Why do you think that Alastair Cook has found it easier to bat in Australia than in England (where he is still good)?

Lateral movement is more difficult to deal with than bounce. Think it through logically. Assuming we're talking about defensive strokes. Lateral movement is more likely to dismiss a batsman than bounce. That's not to say bounce isn't useful. Just that lateral movement brings bowled, leg before, as well as more chances of caught behind into play more than bounce does.

But why do you think that bowlers who use line, length, swing and/or seam (okay sometimes bounce) have more success than raw pace bowlers? Why do you think all the bowlers with the best averages ever were very accurate and able to get lateral movement? Sure some such as Malcolm Marshall and Michael Holding had express pace. But the point is they were accurate and could get the ball to move.

Why was Glenn McGrath a substantially better bowler than either Brett Lee or Mitchell Johnson (both of whom are also excellent)?

grazorblade, technique necessary within batsmen to deal with lateral movement is about as necessary as a footballer's technique in trapping a fast pass and weighting his/her passes properly. It's the most basic thing.

And that is what has let Australia down so much in recent time.

There was a time when every Australian wicket offered something different. Australia was so good because the batsmen (and bowlers) knew (from domestic cricket) how to play in all circumstances. Now, all wickets are runways.

Time to give this thread a bump. 

What do people make of all the Michael Clarke stuff that's coming out at the moment?

Could we get this thread stickied? Really don't need it to be hidden under all these articles that are being ignored. 

yes it would be nice if there were more here

Now that we have our own cricket section on the forum, I'm not sure this thread has the relevancy it once did?

Having said this there were a lot of good technical  posts from current and former cricketers/coaches in it.

In the old 442 format, in Extra Time it was the only cricket thread allowed.

Can't even beat India in India! Grr

Is anyone a Cricket family member and received the pre sale password for the ashes, willing to share? I signed up after the cut off so missed it. Would appreciate buying before the general public

Cricket Australia furious after International Rules series booked for Adelaide Oval days before Ashes day-night Test

CRICKET Australia boss James Sutherland is furious at AFL plans to stage the second match of its International Rules series at Adelaide Oval two weeks before the city’s historic Ashes day-night Test.

Sutherland said the proposed Adelaide Oval schedule, featuring a possible International Rules game on November 18 and cricket’s Ashes centrepiece starting on December 2, was simply not feasible.

“This is absolutely prime cricket season and I don’t need to tell anyone how critical this period is in the preparation of what promises to be a huge Ashes Test match in front of a global audience. CA certainly supports the SACA’s stance on this,” Sutherland told The Advertiser from London.

The AFL last year announced a revival series of the hybrid Irish-Australian games to be played on November 11 and 18.


Travis Boak and Brodie Smith pose before the Australian International Rules AFL team training session.
The league has not yet to confirmed match venues but The Advertiser understands the revamped Adelaide Oval as well as Perth are leading contenders to host the contests.

CA and SACA are upset football’s push into summer will likely come just 14 days before the second Test and first Ashes Test under pink-ball conditions at the city venue.

Cricket officials are concerned about the Oval’s condition and recovery from International Rules so close to the Ashes, and at the lead-up to cricket’s glamour Ashes game being consumed by the AFL-sanctioned event.

“I’m very surprised to hear about this possible event now, just five months out. Well over a year ago we began consultation on our schedule for this Ashes summer, and the tour schedule has now been locked down for nearly six months,” Sutherland said.

“We cannot take a risk with the Test match preparation. Based on our ticket sales to date — and indications of overseas visitor traffic — this may well be the biggest sporting event ever held in Adelaide.

“Days one and two of the first ever day-night Ashes Test are already sold out, which just shows the huge interest in this game.’’

The Stadium Management Authority has been approached by the AFL to hire Adelaide Oval for the IR clash. SACA’s opposition to the timing of the event stands to be overruled in a test of SMA relations with football.



Australian captain Steve Smith runs between wickets during the day-night Test match between Australia and South Africa at the Adelaide Oval.
The AFL and Irish Gaelic Association staged single-Test series in 2014 and 2015 but agreed to play two International Rules Series Tests in Australia over the weekends of November 11 and 18 in Perth and Adelaide.

Cricket must deal with the mechanics of an International Rules game on the eve of its Ashes series but remains equally disappointed by a perceived AFL strategic assault.

SACA and CA have no issue with the programming of the International Rules game but the timing is a sore point.

“We have concerns regarding staging that event so close to an historic Ashes Test,” SACA chief executive Keith Bradshaw told The Advertiser.

“The eyes of world will be on Adelaide so we want to make sure everything is perfect in terms of the event.

“We are not against the International Rules games it but it would be preferable to not stage a clash so close to such an historic game.”

Cricket and football’s delicate alliance at Adelaide Oval is under pressure with the AFL programming what is regarded by critics as a two-match, hybrid rules side-show between Patrick Dangerfield’s Australia and Ireland.


Australian captain Steve Smith reacts with Peter Handscomb after Handscomb caught out South African batsman Faf du Plessis on day three of the day-night Test match between Australia and South Africa.
SMA general manager Darren Chandler did not wish to elaborate on events that were yet to be confirmed but said any announcement would come from the hirer.

“We review each event on its merit, what it takes to make it happen,” said Chandler.

“It is up to the venue hirer to make an announcement in due course.”

AFL spokesperson Patrick Keane said the SMA had offered no negative feedback in discussions about venue hire.

An AC/DC concert days before cricket’s inaugural day-night Test between Australia and New Zealand in 2015 meant 800 square metres of turf had to be re-laid.

However, Adelaide Oval master curator Damian Hough will have his work cut this summer. An International Rules game is likely to tear up the Oval and require transplanting of drop-in pitches inside two weeks before Joe Root’s England defend the urn against Steve Smith’s Australians.

“Damian Hough is a genius, if anyone can get the Oval ready it is him but it will be tough,” said Bradshaw.

Adelaide will also welcome the England squad for a four-day, day-night match against the Cricket Australia XI at Adelaide Oval from 8 November.

“We are very aware that the new Adelaide Oval is and needs to be a multi-purpose venue but flexibility comes with the need to plan ahead and manage risk,’’ Sutherland said.

There have been simmering tensions between AFL and cricket since the AFL women’s grand final between Brisbane and Adelaide was shifted from the Gabba to Metricon Stadium last March.

Gabba curator Kevin Mitchell re-sowed the centre wicket after dual Adele concerts.

Day one of the second Ashes Test in Adelaide and first under pink ball conditions is the 40th anniversary of the inaugural World Series Cricket day-nighter, at Waverley in Melbourne.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/sport/cricket/cricket-australia-furious-after-international-rules-series-booked-for-adelaide-oval-days-before-ashes-daynight-test/news-story/3315f40b0f2f5f17d87e95c6bd8b6aa4