It depends where the growth is doesn't it Gyfox?

The growth in numbers revolves around the growth in Miniroos participation. Of that growth there is a significant amount in female participation.
Even with growth in other junior age groups the stats don't account players who have the ability to play NPL or can afford it.

Unfortunately Arthur it's about helping private HAL franchises raise revenue (as HAL Academies charge interstate & will be charging in Victoria).

NPL clubs are run by volunteers, are non for profit & all revenue gets returned to the club.

Will it benefit Aust to develop players ?
Since the inception of the Aleague youth teams in 2008 we've gone backwards in all our national youth teams. That's the undeniable results. So it's quite silly compounding the mistakes & doing the same stuff & expecting a different result !!

The real fundamental issue is there are only 69 Aust 1st league (HAL) positions for Aussie boys.

In the 1st Division system before the A-League was established there was significantly more.

So unless they create a 2nd division, a transfer market, perhaps youth quotas in all divisions, perhaps less Visa player spots in HAL (drop it to 2 like in the NPL) nothing will change.

Problem is the FFA have cornered themselves with this dumb franchise model that is failing Aust Football. They have sold these franchise licences & are trying to find ways to stem franchise losses.

They don't care about youth development sadly.

Your questions are loaded and you've already made up your mind on the current situation without the facts.
Either you don't know, and mind you there's nothing wrong with saying you don't know, or you have an agenda.

Unfortunately the FFV Paid administrators developed a conference system with no promotion and relegation in the first four years of operation.
They also conferenced the leagues devaluing the competition and diluting the level.
Of course these administrators had no football background, they came from Ice Hockey, AFL and Cricket I don't think they even liked the game let alone understood it.

With a review in Victoria of the NPL and Community Competitions due soon hopefully there will be changes along NSW's structure.

Miniroos has gone up 27% since 2014 and overall numbers have gone up 21% so growth in the other age ranges is still quite significant.  You are right in saying the real impact will take some time to be felt.  The figure that would be interesting to  know is how much of the growth is players staying in the game because its these players that the youth development players come from.

On the ground the Under 18's competition is struggling for numbers with many players pushing into the U20's.
I would also be interested to see the numbers for players born in 1997 for years 2017 to 2009 to see the player numbers and determine drop off or retention rates.

I wasn't asking you to answer my questions as you weren't the one crying about how hard done by the npl clubs will be but if you feel the need please do so im all ears. You did say you were happy to do so after all. 

Just a reminder for you. 

Here are some questions for the NPL clubman.
In VIC NPL squads how many of the starting 11 come from the junior set up?
Without FFV or FFA providing the stats impossible to provide definitive. In the recent past these organisations have been reluctant to provide such.
Knowing some of the Clubs in the East it varies, taking into account that when the NPL started many Clubs had immature youth programs, also that junior football has a history of transient junior players as parents follow coaches.
My Old Club Nunawading has a high youth player retention rate at the younger age groups and that rate shrinks as the players get older. They usually seek opportunities elsewhere, while others seek new interests.
Other Clubs didn’t have all the required age groups and have started from scratch so won’t be able to provide the answer you seek.
Kingston City is an interesting case they had many teething problems in the first two years of NPL with their Youth Program and has now settled down.
Oakliegh due to some great people at youth level also have a high retention rate.

Why are the $2000 plus junior fees really charged? Is it to pay senior players or for youth development?
I think the costs of NPL have already been demonstrated in an earlier post.
Common complaint from the New Football people with little evidence.

Why are the juniors still training and playing on cow paddocks with shit lighting at most NPL clubs?
This is an easy one to answer.
Not just over the last 10 years but historically over the last 100 years we as a sport have been disadvantaged by the lack of Government spending on Football infrastructure on Crown Land.
There are many factors for this at FFV/FFA level and club level.
Poor management
High turnover of club committees
Lack of people with the expertise to lobby for funding
Even plain bigotry
I think you get the gist.
NSW has implemented a business unit solely focused on facilities development for their clubs hopefully a model Victoria will follow very soon.
Even the FFA over the last 12 years should have been focusing on developing model boutique stadiums in every capital city. Something that would help develop the game more than anything else they could do.
Did you know the Andrews Government has not allocated $1 for special projects for our Sport?
http://sport.vic.gov.au/grants-and-funding/sport-and-recreation-2017-18-state-budget

Once selected for an NPL club and playing in the seniors, what is the next step up in levels in this great country of ours?
In Australia once you make NPL Seniors that’s it really. A-League franchises aren’t interested. My advice go overseas as soon as you can.

With approx. 90-100 possible players moving to HAL academies in VIC how many players will each of the 30 NPL clubs lose? That's if all the 90-100 players come from NPL and not community or country clubs?
The FFA wants the HAL Academies to have teams in all age groups starting from U13 by 2019.
That’s 90 players per franchise for a total of 180 players.
What your argument suggests is that the HAL Academies will take 1 player per team.
But they are not going to take a player from the U14s that is sitting dead last with no wins or draws has scored 4 goals and conceded 100.
They more than likely will not take a player from the country teams.
They will recruit from the more successful youth programs of specific clubs. Core group from about 4-6 clubs then a spread of 6-10 clubs.
With their geographic locations in Footscray and Bundoora they will gravitate to recruiting players within a reasonable radius.
What the key issue in all of this is that the FFA Staff and the FFV staff had provided no research or definitive planning on how the introduction of HAL Academies would affect the competition.
Can the NPL clubs give the same or if not better opportunities and development as the HAL academies?
This is interesting topic and I don’t think it’s a hard question to answer. Credit where credit is due the Brisbane Roar Academy is about the best youth development program in the country. But they still have limitations. Most of their graduates make great NPL players, mostly in Victoria.
I can say that Melbourne City six years ago recruited the best 16yo in Victoria six years later he is playing in NPL2. He should have left the country or been playing Senior Football in the NPL from 18yo which he could have done.
There are a litany of similar.
You can count on one hand how many Youth players have graduated from HAL Youth to Seniors.
The best thing any kid with talent in Australia can do is move overseas. But let me tell you if you’ve been at an HAL franchise they will demand full Compensation payment and the overseas club will reject you and your career is over before it starts.
If you or anyone else can honestly answer these questions please it would be much appreciated.
I’ve read the minutes of the FFA with NPLV Clubs and seriously I expected more from these fulltime professional employees. Abraams was particularly disappointing lacking an understanding of Australian circumstances.
One comment of his was quite amusing when he asked NPL Clubs to show loyalty to youth players. One of the NPL Club representatives quipped “..why don’t you make HAL Academies sign youth players on 3 year scholarships then?”.
Or when he was asked how much a 2 star Academy would cost to operate, he came back with a figures from $300K to 650K. The 300K based on a club owning its facilities. He had no idea and no professional work was done to provide cost estimates.
There’s a heap more. But put simply the NPL Clubs are asking for is an Impact Analysis on the introduction of the HAL Academies and so far nothing has been done.

Don't need a reminder from you buddy!
The answers are above.

Thank you for that and I agree with you 100% 
Clearly you to believe that if you had the choice for your son to be at either an npl club or a Hal academy for development hal is the go. Based on your answers anyway.

@Arthur

How many Vic teams do you think have A-League ambition or would? (Perhaps a little hard to guesstimate)

I am against a full pyramid because I don't believe the country is anywhere near ready. I would like to see a 14 team A-League with a 2nd division with anywhere from 10 to 24 teams. I imagine costs would be lower in the event that most clubs would come from Sydney and Melbourne and traveling teams could play 2 games on trips etc.

I think the idea should be to have as many professional teams as possible. Even bargain basement. However, I would like all clubs to have a top ambition and not be content just being in a 2nd division closed or not.

@ scott21 Grouch

How many Vic teams do you think have A-League ambition or would? (Perhaps a little hard to guesstimate)
I’ll be straight with you apologies if I hurt your feelings.
Your question is irrelevant and misdirected; the current FFA Ecosystem destroys ambition and investment in levels below the A-League.
You cannot build towards participation in the A-League by going through levels; you cannot seek equity in your ownership model because FFA regulations prohibit this.
Only an open pyramid can provide the incentive for investment and move a club towards a vision of reaching the A-league.

I am against a full pyramid because I don't believe the country is anywhere near ready. I would like to see a 14 team A-League with a 2nd division with anywhere from 10 to 24 teams. I imagine costs would be lower in the event that most clubs would come from Sydney and Melbourne and traveling teams could play 2 games on trips etc.
Again irrelevant, opening the Pyramid does not automatically mean that a club will go from NPL1 Victoria East Conference directly to NPL then to a National 2^nd Division then onto A-League.
There are Licencing Criteria that are required to be met along the way requiring significant investment.
And that is fair enough too.
But the current system does not allow Abramovic to come to Australia take over Bendigo City and pump in $100Million to fast track a four year journey from NP1 West to A-league.
This is what people forget.
Currently the market for Football Clubs in England and Europe is a thriving market on its own. Again this is not permitted in Australia.
We have the emergence of the MLS Ponzi Scheme where you pay $150Mil for a licence and never make a return on investment. Hey but just keep issuing those Licences. And the ELEPHANT in the room is you produce AVERAGE Football and footballers from these systems.  All because our administrators only understand CLOSED LEAGUES as they come from sports that do not operate Globally. The best players already operate in their market. We work in a global market, using a CLOSED League to compete in a Global market won’t deliver Football outcomes.
I bet you the next idea along with Salary Caps will be Player drafts!!


I think the idea should be to have as many professional teams as possible. Even bargain basement. However, I would like all clubs to have a top ambition and not be content just being in a 2nd division closed or not.
Agreed
For me the person who makes the most sense on these arguments is Bluebird he has it nailed.

@JDB03Get a life champ you seriouslyhave no clue and you need to stop putting words into people’s mouths at thevery least stop second guessing.Having been at the forefront ofyouth development in Melbourne for 10 years I will give you my advice for freetake it or leave it I don’t really give a shit.

1. If you live in theSouth East and your kids are aged between 10yo and 15yo take them to Glen EiraJSC and put them in the Elite program under McBride’s FTS Academy.
2. Get them into Futsal.Few around do your research.
3. An alternative programis Heartwings another group off the radar
4. Find a good privatecoach that works in small groups. Best thing I did for my kids was have them atIvan Jolic’s Academy before he became a Skillaroo coach, set them up for lifein Football.
5. If your kids areminiroos age get them to Tom Byers T3 programs ASAP don’t waste a minute
6. Get them overseas onfootball tours as soon as you can and if you can afford
7. If you can move toEurope due to work or your wealth do so don’t waste a moment

Avoid NPL if you can and run fromHAL Academies your kids will not develop the technique necessary to reach thetop level. They will be over coached to play a tactical game to record wins inyouth football. In many cases to satisfy the ego of coaches.At least at the HAL Academies theywill know what a skinfold is!!The NPL and HAL Academies I willstrongly recommend to you if it’s about keeping their kids away from poorinfluences in society, a break from social media devices, providing somestructure, developing family/friendship connections, a great hobby and have agood time playing football.

Not sure about other states but Sydney FC and Wanderers charge a similar amount to play the NPL.

New rules in China from today, interesting focus on youth development

If HAL clubs want youth Academies maybe force them to play 3 x u23s or under u20s in the A-League, maybe ask the experts that ran the Centre of Excellence back when it was successful, what the optimum age is.

The current A-League is 3rd division European standard at best, & a retirement home for journey men, we should force them to develop some decent national players at the very least.

Does nothing but create lazy and entitled domestic players who are handed a starting spot simply because of their age/nationality. You think the contract merry-go-round in the A-League is bad now, wait until clubs are forced to fill artificial quotas (more so than they currently do) - suddenly players who meet administrative criteria will be overpaid simply because they satisfy a rule.

This is absolutely spot on. From FFA direct quote: "in Sydney FC’s penultimate game of the season, they fielded an 11 against Wellington with an average age of 30.09 years." compare this to Ajax who yesterday fielded a team in Europa final with average age of 22. Little wonder our youth development has dried up.

Agree the a-league should focus on the younger players, thats what i believe it should be about. 

Valid points Walnut.
But
-The Aleague Youth system & youth leagues have produced donuts since 2008.
-Our National youth teams are the worst on record
-HAL is very poor quality & does nothing for bleeding youth players

So what do u recommend as a solution ?

Before the HAL & Aleague Youth system, Australia was doing very well indeed both in youth development & Socceroos playing in top European leagues.

Now we only have 1 (in the Bundesliga!!)

The simple answer is to increase the number of spots at a professional level i.e. expansion and promotion/relegation. Even if each professional side only has one U21 player getting minutes, across a minimum of 2 leagues of 16 apiece, that's 32 U21 players getting professional minutes (not including the odd couple who go to Europe at a young age) - that is a much better bedrock to build from, and you'd hopefully get a better quality U21 player as they will be earning this minutes the hard way, not having their spot handed to them.

I also think people over-romanticize the NSL and the youth products that were discovered - I reckon most of the youth products that were produced were given game time not because clubs were concerned about the future of the national team, but rather because they were cheap. Simple as that. Ended up turning out alright, but I have no doubt that most of the youth focus in that 'Golden Gen' period of the NSL was financial more than altruistic. It's not a bad thing to reduce costs by developing and playing youth within (why do people think the Mariners do it?), just need some perspective about it is all.

Also we've got 2 players in the Bundesliga (Leckie and Langerak) :P

Lol you're right it's 2, Leckie just jumped from relegation team to Hertha Berlin.

But I like your solution as it makes heaps of sense.

But

Problem is that FFA have to try & make the A-League franchise experiment work as they've charged franchise fees !!

In my view the franchise experiment has failed Australian football on many fronts.

Foxsports broadcasting gives it a glossy veneer but underneath that it's rotten & damaging football in this country.

Migrating national youth development to private franchise businesses is just compounding the mistakes. Sadly

@walnuts

I also think people over-romanticize the NSL and the youth products that were discovered - I reckon most of the youth products that were produced were given game time not because clubs were concerned about the future of the national team, but rather because they were cheap.

Agree they were cheap as we had a transfer system.
There was a cost in bringing a player to your Club.
Your budget only went so far so you had to play youth.
You could develop a player and provide income for your club back then.

Today without a transfer system patience is no longer possible, foreign players provide instant rewards and relatively cheap.
Without a transfer system or adequate compensation why develop a youngster for someone else to come along and take away from you?

You’ve got me on a roll lol
 
So we’ve identified a better way of developing youth rather than handing it over to private franchises Academies.

How about we incorporate some additional reforms while we are at it ??
    

1. Rollout a 2nd Div with Prom / Relegation (mentioned already)
   
2. Transfer fees between ALL clubs 
   
3. Rollout Semi pro contracts, (with no need to register contracts to FFA & pay them fees for the privilege)
   
4. How about 2 Visa spots per all clubs (whether HAL, NPL, State Leagues) to assist to promote Aussie players. Would make a fairer FFA Cup Competition too :)
   
5. How about we limit all federation administration fees to say 5% of league turnover. Presently FFA charge 28% of their turnover in salaries (around $ 24 million on turnover of just over $106m !!! ). Internationally its off the scale ! 
   
6. How about Federations only manage football under an outsourced service model e.g. Administer Fixtures, Tribunal, Player contract Admin, Referees.  
   
7. ALL clubs can have as many junior teams as they can carry so they can lobby councils/governments for more/better facilities
   
8. Coaching licences at cost recovery fee structure only. Presently Australia has the MOST expensive coaching licence system on the planet. It’s a revenue centre for the FFA. Guess who ultimately pays for that, parents!!
   
9. Transfer compensation payments to be paid directly to clubs rather that put the onus on mum & dad volunteers having to chase up FFA to see what they are owed. Incredible !!
   
10. Scrap NPL Player Point system.
    

 
But wait, what a coincidence, most of this happens around the world already

Agree with this, especially in the exhibition match when Syd FC brought on a majority of their youngsters, they definitely outshone the guys that started in the first half with their calmness on the ball and first touch.

Ajax do admittedly have one of the best youth academies in the world (Barcelona's La Maisa was created after Cryuff told them they needed an academy like Ajax's). Also Ajax are largely a team that on sells players (e.g. Suarez, Ibramhovic) ... so it is part of their business model to create great players.

But yes it could be argued youth is a risk not many are willing to take in the A-League (how'd the Mariners fair with their youth team playing A-League season before last???)

@Arthur

I agree with how you answered my questions. I only ask because see it as the next step toward a pyramid.

It seems highly unlikely APFCA would/will agree to an open system anytime soon. They would be looking for the safety net of a closed tier system.

FIFA or AFC won't force it.

The best chance is if something happened and FFA seeing impending doom gives its "stuff yas" and brings it in.

Or they actually back a parallel league set up by AAFC or their own NPL. These seem unlikely.

INDIAN FOOTBALL: ISL TO GET RECOGNITION FROM AFC

The Asian Football Confederation (AFC) are all set to allow the winners of the Indian Super League (ISL) to participate in the AFC Cup qualifying play-off, according to sources close to Goal.

Under the previous arrangement, the Federation Cup champions would earn a spot in the continental competition’s play-off.

This would mean that the ISL is no more a private tournament but a recognised league under the aegis of the All India Football Federation (AIFF), AFC and FIFA.

The AIFF and their commercial and marketing partners, namely IMG-Reliance met AFC General Secretary Dato Windsor and Alex Philips, Head of AFC- UEFA Affairs at UEFA on Monday in Bahrain to discuss two proposals, as revealed by Goal earlier.

India requested for a third spot in the AFC competitions which was rejected by the continental body. The idea being that the winners of I-League and the Indian Super League (ISL) would get AFC Cup berths while the Super Cup champion will qualify for the Asian Champions League (ACL) play-off.


http://m.goal.com/s/en-ar/news/18722/main/2017/05/13/35463032/indian-football-isl-to-get-recognition-from-afc?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.se%2F


So I believe it is relevant because AAFC won't force their way into a pyramid anytime soon.

Some great advice there Arthur but no need to get personal just having a debate...relax.