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dman2018
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+x+x+xdman, you and I and almost every other BDPer are on the same page regarding the quality of the refereeing and if we are thinking it how many other fans of other clubs are thinking the same. The fans of the Big 3 are thinking its great. The fans of the Big 4th are thinking it'll be great as soon as Milford goes to fullback... do underdtand though, I completely blame the NRLol and not the refs... the refs are simply performing as instructed... qhat at the he'll were the NRLol thinking telling refs to to ref to the rules... the players and coaches consistently broke the rules when they were being enforced.., its a shame the stats from the NRLol aren't broken down by team... I could almost guarantee the Big 3's ptb is quicker with the ball, and slower without it... #todd&comustgo... #dismantlethearlc... Thing is teams at the top of the pile don't need a leg up, I agree they are getting one, it should be unintentional because if it is intentional it is dumb... What we are lacking at present is then "upset" when a lesser credential side wants it more or the day and gets some luck... The luck or the 50/50s are tending to go with the top side, and they don't need it, end result "upsets" rarely happen, the comp becomes stale and boring, fans of the top 2-3 teams are happy, fans of the bottom 13 teams think "what is the point" and lose interest... All the refs can do is improve consistency, ref the rules and let the game flow with a good 10 that is never less than 10..... do that and we will have an exciting comp with "upsets" and all fans engaged, fix the shambles of a salary cap and the comp will be even better.... Running a comp where 2-3 teams get a leg up is easy, running a comp that is fair to all is a much bigger challenge, but that should be the aim. Spot on...
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dman2018
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xMarki, not too sure what you've been smoking but it has certainly clouded your perception. It doesn't look like we cop the wrath of the refs at all..... we are without a doubt copping sh!t off the refs and we have been since 2002. I have been watching rugby league since as long as I can remember....... 1960 or 61 to be more accurate, and over the last 15 years I have never witnessed a more inept bunch of inconsistent clowns. We had a few doosies in the past but nothing like the last decade or so. ODF, it's the advent of the video ref, TV screens at games and slow motion replays. The game has also gone from a defence focused spectacle to one that promotes attack. This means rules are geared towards teams trying to play a faster and more expansive brand of footy- which the networks prefer. As a result of this, a split ball in a tackle is no longer a loose carry and scrum, but rather a penalty and field gain. Refs use to make mistakes in the past also. It's just that without a video ref or replay shown on screen at the game - the crowd didnt have a second chance to see it and scrutinise it. Unlike others, I cut the refs some slack. The speed of the game nowdays makes it too easy to make an error out of a 50-50 play. In my opinion the good teams know this and have the capability to play that bit better to cancel out such errors. That's what we need to strive for. Let the refs strive for their own kpi's... ive never been a ref blamer, but as it stands now, they deserve zero slack... What Marki and I want is a fast entertaining open game where refs have zero impact on the end result... What you want is for refs to do their job, the 2 are not mutually exclusive... One problem I see is that players and coaches don't respect refs, refs need to earn back respect.... IMO a game with a big 10, fast play the balls and minimal stoppages is always decided by the players, the ref is automatically respected as it is an entertaining game, the ref gets credit even though all they did was get out of the way and let the players play.. The problem with this is why the ref is on the field in the first place, given any opportunity the players will push the boundaries and outright cheat, as winning is important.. The best path forward is for refs to maintain a big 10, zero tolerance for any hands on the player/ball after they have called held, and zero tolerance for incorrect play the balls. The use the bin for repeated infringements, and be consistent.... Where the ball is player on an opposition foot is the one exception, make that a do-over unless the opposition player put their foot there.... that is a genuine 50/50 .. the refs are just guessing and are wildly inconsistent... If there are any other areas where they are guessing, make it a do-over... The one thing that is easy to do, easy to be consistent and requires zero judgement is keep a big 10, do that sooner or later the attack will make an inroad and be entitled to a quick ptb, not hard to spot if the defence slows down the ptb to give time to get their line set, really it is a professional foul, record that as a team foul, after 3 fouls the next one is the bin... Get it right and be consistent, the refs will soon earn back respect.... The lack of consistency seems to stem from not having it right, the refs sensing they are not respected, and wanting to avoid controversy. By trying to be a small target, they are showing a lack of confidence and opening themselves up for failure.... More than anything the refs need to build a team culture, set some standards and decide what they stand for, then strive to meet their own standards..... I would like to get them in a room and see what they think they stand for, I half suspect we would get a lot of corporate speak and very little substance. No big10, just a consistent 10. Any ad hoc arrangements will lead to inconsistency and potential bias. If we want more than 10 change the rules. OK I would settle for a consistent 10, I can't see why they can't get more consistent, most poor games this year have had a skinny 10... Once again, Bulldogs fans will always whinge because the team plays with a very poor line speed and only advances 2m from the 10m mark. If the ref (for whatever reason) is playing an 11m or 12m mark, our 2m advance means we meet the next run 10m passed the advantage line. The poor ref who took us back 12m instead of 10m gave the opposition a 100% advancement on what is normal. Now take the above and apply it to a top team with fast defensive line speed, who normally runs forward 6m on every tackle. By being taken 12m back instead of 10m, they are still meeting the next run 6m from the advantage line and the nett effect the refs "error" is only 33%. That's the difference my friends. Our poor line speed is more sensitive to fat or skinny 10m retreats by the refs. It's not cheating, it's not bias. It's just silly of us to keep blaming the refs for having to set a 10m mark with no guidelines in a game played at furious pace. If we want to negate it we can do 2 things: 1) improve our line speed so the effect is minimal 2) move up in a line consistently (refs will take teams 11m and 12m back if there is a serial offender that is 1 or 2m constantly offside) Yep.. you only watch one game a week...
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dman2018
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xMarki, not too sure what you've been smoking but it has certainly clouded your perception. It doesn't look like we cop the wrath of the refs at all..... we are without a doubt copping sh!t off the refs and we have been since 2002. I have been watching rugby league since as long as I can remember....... 1960 or 61 to be more accurate, and over the last 15 years I have never witnessed a more inept bunch of inconsistent clowns. We had a few doosies in the past but nothing like the last decade or so. ODF, it's the advent of the video ref, TV screens at games and slow motion replays. The game has also gone from a defence focused spectacle to one that promotes attack. This means rules are geared towards teams trying to play a faster and more expansive brand of footy- which the networks prefer. As a result of this, a split ball in a tackle is no longer a loose carry and scrum, but rather a penalty and field gain. Refs use to make mistakes in the past also. It's just that without a video ref or replay shown on screen at the game - the crowd didnt have a second chance to see it and scrutinise it. Unlike others, I cut the refs some slack. The speed of the game nowdays makes it too easy to make an error out of a 50-50 play. In my opinion the good teams know this and have the capability to play that bit better to cancel out such errors. That's what we need to strive for. Let the refs strive for their own kpi's... ive never been a ref blamer, but as it stands now, they deserve zero slack... What Marki and I want is a fast entertaining open game where refs have zero impact on the end result... What you want is for refs to do their job, the 2 are not mutually exclusive... One problem I see is that players and coaches don't respect refs, refs need to earn back respect.... IMO a game with a big 10, fast play the balls and minimal stoppages is always decided by the players, the ref is automatically respected as it is an entertaining game, the ref gets credit even though all they did was get out of the way and let the players play.. The problem with this is why the ref is on the field in the first place, given any opportunity the players will push the boundaries and outright cheat, as winning is important.. The best path forward is for refs to maintain a big 10, zero tolerance for any hands on the player/ball after they have called held, and zero tolerance for incorrect play the balls. The use the bin for repeated infringements, and be consistent.... Where the ball is player on an opposition foot is the one exception, make that a do-over unless the opposition player put their foot there.... that is a genuine 50/50 .. the refs are just guessing and are wildly inconsistent... If there are any other areas where they are guessing, make it a do-over... The one thing that is easy to do, easy to be consistent and requires zero judgement is keep a big 10, do that sooner or later the attack will make an inroad and be entitled to a quick ptb, not hard to spot if the defence slows down the ptb to give time to get their line set, really it is a professional foul, record that as a team foul, after 3 fouls the next one is the bin... Get it right and be consistent, the refs will soon earn back respect.... The lack of consistency seems to stem from not having it right, the refs sensing they are not respected, and wanting to avoid controversy. By trying to be a small target, they are showing a lack of confidence and opening themselves up for failure.... More than anything the refs need to build a team culture, set some standards and decide what they stand for, then strive to meet their own standards..... I would like to get them in a room and see what they think they stand for, I half suspect we would get a lot of corporate speak and very little substance. No big10, just a consistent 10. Any ad hoc arrangements will lead to inconsistency and potential bias. If we want more than 10 change the rules. OK I would settle for a consistent 10, I can't see why they can't get more consistent, most poor games this year have had a skinny 10... Once again, Bulldogs fans will always whinge because the team plays with a very poor line speed and only advances 2m from the 10m mark. If the ref (for whatever reason) is playing an 11m or 12m mark, our 2m advance means we meet the next run 10m passed the advantage line. The poor ref who took us back 12m instead of 10m gave the opposition a 100% advancement on what is normal. Now take the above and apply it to a top team with fast defensive line speed, who normally runs forward 6m on every tackle. By being taken 12m back instead of 10m, they are still meeting the next run 6m from the advantage line and the nett effect the refs "error" is only 33%. That's the difference my friends. Our poor line speed is more sensitive to fat or skinny 10m retreats by the refs. It's not cheating, it's not bias. It's just silly of us to keep blaming the refs for having to set a 10m mark with no guidelines in a game played at furious pace. If we want to negate it we can do 2 things: 1) improve our line speed so the effect is minimal 2) move up in a line consistently (refs will take teams 11m and 12m back if there is a serial offender that is 1 or 2m constantly offside) Yep.. you only watch one game a week... We're talking football... not the dogs...
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dman2018
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+x+xThank you steve my point exactly, but who the fk are bobbie and pippa, sounds like characters in a JRR Tolkein novel. You made the Home & Away references!! Crickey, and flamin heck...
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Steveswr1
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+xAnd stop this calling players by their first name crap... its a surname or a number... the players are not the refs mates, and vice versa... It is easier than saying Nicoll-Klokstad or Faitala-Mariner or Harawira-Naera
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dman2018
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xMarki, not too sure what you've been smoking but it has certainly clouded your perception. It doesn't look like we cop the wrath of the refs at all..... we are without a doubt copping sh!t off the refs and we have been since 2002. I have been watching rugby league since as long as I can remember....... 1960 or 61 to be more accurate, and over the last 15 years I have never witnessed a more inept bunch of inconsistent clowns. We had a few doosies in the past but nothing like the last decade or so. ODF, it's the advent of the video ref, TV screens at games and slow motion replays. The game has also gone from a defence focused spectacle to one that promotes attack. This means rules are geared towards teams trying to play a faster and more expansive brand of footy- which the networks prefer. As a result of this, a split ball in a tackle is no longer a loose carry and scrum, but rather a penalty and field gain. Refs use to make mistakes in the past also. It's just that without a video ref or replay shown on screen at the game - the crowd didnt have a second chance to see it and scrutinise it. Unlike others, I cut the refs some slack. The speed of the game nowdays makes it too easy to make an error out of a 50-50 play. In my opinion the good teams know this and have the capability to play that bit better to cancel out such errors. That's what we need to strive for. Let the refs strive for their own kpi's... ive never been a ref blamer, but as it stands now, they deserve zero slack... What Marki and I want is a fast entertaining open game where refs have zero impact on the end result... What you want is for refs to do their job, the 2 are not mutually exclusive... One problem I see is that players and coaches don't respect refs, refs need to earn back respect.... IMO a game with a big 10, fast play the balls and minimal stoppages is always decided by the players, the ref is automatically respected as it is an entertaining game, the ref gets credit even though all they did was get out of the way and let the players play.. The problem with this is why the ref is on the field in the first place, given any opportunity the players will push the boundaries and outright cheat, as winning is important.. The best path forward is for refs to maintain a big 10, zero tolerance for any hands on the player/ball after they have called held, and zero tolerance for incorrect play the balls. The use the bin for repeated infringements, and be consistent.... Where the ball is player on an opposition foot is the one exception, make that a do-over unless the opposition player put their foot there.... that is a genuine 50/50 .. the refs are just guessing and are wildly inconsistent... If there are any other areas where they are guessing, make it a do-over... The one thing that is easy to do, easy to be consistent and requires zero judgement is keep a big 10, do that sooner or later the attack will make an inroad and be entitled to a quick ptb, not hard to spot if the defence slows down the ptb to give time to get their line set, really it is a professional foul, record that as a team foul, after 3 fouls the next one is the bin... Get it right and be consistent, the refs will soon earn back respect.... The lack of consistency seems to stem from not having it right, the refs sensing they are not respected, and wanting to avoid controversy. By trying to be a small target, they are showing a lack of confidence and opening themselves up for failure.... More than anything the refs need to build a team culture, set some standards and decide what they stand for, then strive to meet their own standards..... I would like to get them in a room and see what they think they stand for, I half suspect we would get a lot of corporate speak and very little substance. No big10, just a consistent 10. Any ad hoc arrangements will lead to inconsistency and potential bias. If we want more than 10 change the rules. OK I would settle for a consistent 10, I can't see why they can't get more consistent, most poor games this year have had a skinny 10... It's just silly of us to keep blaming the refs for having to set a 10m mark with no guidelines in a game played at furious pace. "Played at a furious pace", can't wait to hear the ref call that along with loose carry and other rules they implement on the run or don't exist,,, Those "guidelines" as you call them are commonly referred to as the laws of the game... they're in black and white... feel free to look them up... I generally do before passing comment..,
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dman2018
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+xAnd stop this calling players by their first name crap... its a surname or a number... the players are not the refs mates, and vice versa... It is easier than saying Nicoll-Klokstad or Faitala-Mariner or Harawira-Naera Right so number 1 or number 11 will be just fine...
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hounddog
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xMarki, not too sure what you've been smoking but it has certainly clouded your perception. It doesn't look like we cop the wrath of the refs at all..... we are without a doubt copping sh!t off the refs and we have been since 2002. I have been watching rugby league since as long as I can remember....... 1960 or 61 to be more accurate, and over the last 15 years I have never witnessed a more inept bunch of inconsistent clowns. We had a few doosies in the past but nothing like the last decade or so. ODF, it's the advent of the video ref, TV screens at games and slow motion replays. The game has also gone from a defence focused spectacle to one that promotes attack. This means rules are geared towards teams trying to play a faster and more expansive brand of footy- which the networks prefer. As a result of this, a split ball in a tackle is no longer a loose carry and scrum, but rather a penalty and field gain. Refs use to make mistakes in the past also. It's just that without a video ref or replay shown on screen at the game - the crowd didnt have a second chance to see it and scrutinise it. Unlike others, I cut the refs some slack. The speed of the game nowdays makes it too easy to make an error out of a 50-50 play. In my opinion the good teams know this and have the capability to play that bit better to cancel out such errors. That's what we need to strive for. Let the refs strive for their own kpi's... ive never been a ref blamer, but as it stands now, they deserve zero slack... What Marki and I want is a fast entertaining open game where refs have zero impact on the end result... What you want is for refs to do their job, the 2 are not mutually exclusive... One problem I see is that players and coaches don't respect refs, refs need to earn back respect.... IMO a game with a big 10, fast play the balls and minimal stoppages is always decided by the players, the ref is automatically respected as it is an entertaining game, the ref gets credit even though all they did was get out of the way and let the players play.. The problem with this is why the ref is on the field in the first place, given any opportunity the players will push the boundaries and outright cheat, as winning is important.. The best path forward is for refs to maintain a big 10, zero tolerance for any hands on the player/ball after they have called held, and zero tolerance for incorrect play the balls. The use the bin for repeated infringements, and be consistent.... Where the ball is player on an opposition foot is the one exception, make that a do-over unless the opposition player put their foot there.... that is a genuine 50/50 .. the refs are just guessing and are wildly inconsistent... If there are any other areas where they are guessing, make it a do-over... The one thing that is easy to do, easy to be consistent and requires zero judgement is keep a big 10, do that sooner or later the attack will make an inroad and be entitled to a quick ptb, not hard to spot if the defence slows down the ptb to give time to get their line set, really it is a professional foul, record that as a team foul, after 3 fouls the next one is the bin... Get it right and be consistent, the refs will soon earn back respect.... The lack of consistency seems to stem from not having it right, the refs sensing they are not respected, and wanting to avoid controversy. By trying to be a small target, they are showing a lack of confidence and opening themselves up for failure.... More than anything the refs need to build a team culture, set some standards and decide what they stand for, then strive to meet their own standards..... I would like to get them in a room and see what they think they stand for, I half suspect we would get a lot of corporate speak and very little substance. No big10, just a consistent 10. Any ad hoc arrangements will lead to inconsistency and potential bias. If we want more than 10 change the rules. OK I would settle for a consistent 10, I can't see why they can't get more consistent, most poor games this year have had a skinny 10... Once again, Bulldogs fans will always whinge because the team plays with a very poor line speed and only advances 2m from the 10m mark. If the ref (for whatever reason) is playing an 11m or 12m mark, our 2m advance means we meet the next run 10m passed the advantage line. The poor ref who took us back 12m instead of 10m gave the opposition a 100% advancement on what is normal. Now take the above and apply it to a top team with fast defensive line speed, who normally runs forward 6m on every tackle. By being taken 12m back instead of 10m, they are still meeting the next run 6m from the advantage line and the nett effect the refs "error" is only 33%. That's the difference my friends. Our poor line speed is more sensitive to fat or skinny 10m retreats by the refs. It's not cheating, it's not bias. It's just silly of us to keep blaming the refs for having to set a 10m mark with no guidelines in a game played at furious pace. If we want to negate it we can do 2 things: 1) improve our line speed so the effect is minimal 2) move up in a line consistently (refs will take teams 11m and 12m back if there is a serial offender that is 1 or 2m constantly offside) I don't think it is just Dogs fans... We came off worse in the 50/50 calls against Souths, then the refs simply put the whistle in the back pocket and made no attempt to keep teams apart. Bennett has a whinge in the press conference, even though they won, most Souths fans were far from happy and fans with no particular allegiance probably changed channels. Of the games I watch when the Dogs are not playing, 2 of 3 are poor games i can easily walk away from 1 out of 3 is compelling viewing... I'm someone who likes watching league and always has liked it... Our team can improve some areas and they also deserve a bit more of a fair go, if we improve the fair go is more likely to come as place in the pecking orders seems to be a factor.... But it isn't just all about our team, if I sit down to watch the footy I want to see a decent game and I like to think both teams got a fair go... (Mostly ..... as I'm absolutely delighted when some teams get ripped off ... but that is another matter.)
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hounddog
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+x+x+xAnd stop this calling players by their first name crap... its a surname or a number... the players are not the refs mates, and vice versa... It is easier than saying Nicoll-Klokstad or Faitala-Mariner or Harawira-Naera Right so number 1 or number 11 will be just fine... Don't use numbers, Villi will think they are immortals :)
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dman2018
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+xAnd stop this calling players by their first name crap... its a surname or a number... the players are not the refs mates, and vice versa... It is easier than saying Nicoll-Klokstad or Faitala-Mariner or Harawira-Naera Right so number 1 or number 11 will be just fine... Don't use numbers, Villi will think they are immortals :) I'm just waiting for the day he actually realises there is already more than 11...
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ODF
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Marki, my "utter rubbish" remarks are from seeing more rugby league games than you have had hot dinners. In almost 60 years I can say that the refereeing quality is far inferior to that of past decades, even though they now have two refs on the field and a video ref with all the technology in the world to review a decision and they still manage to stuff it up. It can only be conceived as either incompetence or....... nah can't go that far without getting myself into trouble.
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dman2018
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I reckon if you want to watch a game that flows with zero regard for forward passes, knock ons, no play the balls, weird reffing, and 50-36 score lines rugby union is the sport for you...
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ODF
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And yes there are teams leading the comp because they are the best even sometimes the be$t that money can buy, but if you view the entire game (as a competition) it is obvious that some teams continually recieve less wrath from the refs than others and whether it be deliberate or unintentional it is obvious and until the refs become more consistant then I will bag them out.
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Villi
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+x+x+x+x+xAnd stop this calling players by their first name crap... its a surname or a number... the players are not the refs mates, and vice versa... It is easier than saying Nicoll-Klokstad or Faitala-Mariner or Harawira-Naera Right so number 1 or number 11 will be just fine... Don't use numbers, Villi will think they are immortals :) I'm just waiting for the day he actually realises there is already more than 11... WHAT? There is......?
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Villi
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+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd stop this calling players by their first name crap... its a surname or a number... the players are not the refs mates, and vice versa... It is easier than saying Nicoll-Klokstad or Faitala-Mariner or Harawira-Naera Right so number 1 or number 11 will be just fine... Don't use numbers, Villi will think they are immortals :) I'm just waiting for the day he actually realises there is already more than 11... WHAT? There is......? Here’s the following list of Immortals.... 1) Todd Carney 2) Chris Sandow 3) Jacob Loko 4) Tim Simona 5) Paul Carter 6) Josh Duggan 7) Kenny Edwards 8) Jarrod Hayne 9) Greg Inglis 10) Joel Romelo 11) LACHLAN COOTE
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ODF
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd stop this calling players by their first name crap... its a surname or a number... the players are not the refs mates, and vice versa... It is easier than saying Nicoll-Klokstad or Faitala-Mariner or Harawira-Naera Right so number 1 or number 11 will be just fine... Don't use numbers, Villi will think they are immortals :) I'm just waiting for the day he actually realises there is already more than 11... WHAT? There is......? Here’s the following list of Immortals.... 1) Todd Carney 2) Chris Sandow 3) Jacob Loko 4) Tim Simona 5) Paul Carter 6) Josh Duggan 7) Kenny Edwards 8) Jarrod Hayne 9) Greg Inglis 10) Joel Romelo 11) LACHLAN COOTE What's this.... a list of immorals?
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Villi
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd stop this calling players by their first name crap... its a surname or a number... the players are not the refs mates, and vice versa... It is easier than saying Nicoll-Klokstad or Faitala-Mariner or Harawira-Naera Right so number 1 or number 11 will be just fine... Don't use numbers, Villi will think they are immortals :) I'm just waiting for the day he actually realises there is already more than 11... WHAT? There is......? Here’s the following list of Immortals.... 1) Todd Carney 2) Chris Sandow 3) Jacob Loko 4) Tim Simona 5) Paul Carter 6) Josh Duggan 7) Kenny Edwards 8) Jarrod Hayne 9) Greg Inglis 10) Joel Romelo 11) LACHLAN COOTE What's this.... a list of immorals? Yes ODF Why, did I forget someone? 12th Immortal will be Katoni Staggs
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Villi
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No change.... 1-17
Okay then.... Good Luck Dogs
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hounddog
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xAnd stop this calling players by their first name crap... its a surname or a number... the players are not the refs mates, and vice versa... It is easier than saying Nicoll-Klokstad or Faitala-Mariner or Harawira-Naera Right so number 1 or number 11 will be just fine... Don't use numbers, Villi will think they are immortals :) I'm just waiting for the day he actually realises there is already more than 11... WHAT? There is......? Here’s the following list of Immortals.... 1) Todd Carney 2) Chris Sandow 3) Jacob Loko 4) Tim Simona 5) Paul Carter 6) Josh Duggan 7) Kenny Edwards 8) Jarrod Hayne 9) Greg Inglis 10) Joel Romelo 11) LACHLAN COOTE That is the immorals
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hounddog
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+xNo change.... 1-17 Okay then.... Good Luck Dogs Go Dogs!!!!
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dman2018
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Cmon lads... Big effort needed to back up last weeks...
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dman2018
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Yep... only forward pass they pick up all year is backwards..
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Villi
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FMD....... how was it forward????
fekking Sutton
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ODF
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Group: Forum Members
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Sutton is ref, good pass called forward are the refs absolutely incompetent..... I rest my case.
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dman2018
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+xFMD....... how was it forward???? fekking Sutton Even had the line there to show ignoring momentum at worst it was flat...
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Villi
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+x+xFMD....... how was it forward???? fekking Sutton Even had the line there to show ignoring momentum at worst it was flat... No matter which Sutton brother..... there’s always one of them to fekk us over
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Villi
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+xFMD....... how was it forward???? fekking Sutton Even had the line there to show ignoring momentum at worst it was flat... No matter which Sutton brother..... there’s always one of them to fekk us over Another penalty..... another try
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Villi
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Ohh my god.....
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dman2018
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Have mmm on out back while having a ciggie... pretty sure MG just said "can't have a crackdown otherwise teams like the storm will get penalised 40-0 every week"...
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Villi
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Group: Forum Members
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Our line speed is as per normal..... they are making 50-60m with every set
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