All these aforementioned  cricketers are very good players.

I'm not splitting hairs over who is better than whom.

They are all highly successful cricketers in Tests. It can depend at various points in time who is in better form than who. 

Move on.

I think Labuschagne /Smith partnership is now worth about 63 runs. 

These have have been made under scoreboard pressure and pretty good bowling. 

The Poms have really battled and been a tough side to beat, playing well from behind in the series and the last two Tests. 

Splitting hairs? SPLITTING HAIRS?

BROAD IS NOT REMOTELY ON THEIR LEVEL! NOT EVEN CLOSE :-)

I'll move on, at my own will,  cos any argument that places Broad with ATG's is just trolling at best...

And if Root is better than Kohli, KW let alone Smith - you're just saving face. And refusing to admit logical defeat.

Dec - Im not your enemy. I like you. I have opinions. I can support them. They are reasonable.

I take my hat off to them.

It has been good  hard cricket in this Ashes series.

Thanks for elucidating this, Paddles. 

YW. I meant Stokes not Woakes. 

Curran/Woakes has oft batted 9 after Ali at 8 and Stokes at 6 or 5.

They havn't played all 4 together that much if at all cos of Broad/Anderson at 10 and 11...

Beautiful cover drive from Wade! He was a former student at a school where I taught - one that Paine attended too. 

I was just talking to a mate off forum , about how great the partnership was. We  spoke too soon!

I’m not sure where Aus is relative to England’s total of 290? 

Is 3-109 good enough? 

Wade has hammered 18 off 24 balls. 

Curran has worried us, but Wade looked great until he got out LBW to the left arm bowler.

Initially, I thought it was an outswinger, but it looked like it seamed  to off when it hit the pitch.


 

An interesting stat appeared on TV where Archer, Broad and Woakes have moved the ball  0.3 - 0.6 degrees today, whereas Curran has moved it 1.2 degrees. 

His left arm bowling action makes it a different angle too. 

Curran swings it and always does where swing is on offer. Anderson has been sorely missed by England. Doesn't excuse their pathetic crap show of limited batting ability, in the least though.

I said after Marsh swung it huge, that if Curran did, then I question the swing ability of the bowlers on show. Its more or less confirmed for me, mow.

Seen enough, England should have brought in more swingers post Anderson's injury.

Archer is still going to be a superstar if he stays fit. No doubts.

Archer with 6. Not bad for a underachiever.

This is England's game to lose. But I still think they have the lack of ability to lose it.

Pathetic from Australia. You can now count on England winning the match. The wicket will fall apart. And all our batsmen (save two) are useless.

So, once again, we fail to win a Test series in England. That makes it over two freaking decades.

Paine and Marsh need to be hauled over the coals for their batting. Both threw their wickets away. Wade looks technically suspect to left arm swing.

Watching our hapless batsmen is so exasperating.

Paine’s position isn’t that tenable, imo. His captaincy has been hit-and-miss and his batting mediocre. Is he going to improve? Possible but highly unlikely.

DC there is a difference between performances based on longevity and ability. Broad has had a very long career based on the fact that Eng have had problems finding quality quicks, They have questioned that themselves and is one of the reasons they did take Anderson's one day format away from him, to extend his career in test cricket as there was no one else. 

Here is a list of the fastest to 400 wickets

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/283542.html

As you can see there is daylight between Broad and players like Steyn, Hadlee, McGrath etc. Most bowlers should be about 90 test or less but this is where I don't like Matches played rather prefer innings bowled, (I've tried everything can't seem to bring that up for you). But I'll point out Broad has bowled in 241 innings for 463 wickets (1.9 wickets per innings) believe it or not that ratio is enough to be dropped and should be dropped from most world sides and most have been. Look currently at Starc 99 innings 215 wickets (2.17 wickets per innings) massive questions on him only selected for 1 test this series, so whether you are pro or anti Starc that sort of stat is just not enough to support his dropping. Sure Cummins (av 2.6 wickets per innings) and Pattinson (av 2.2 wickets per innings) are currently better but Pattinson only playing 2 tests. So as you can see a 2.2 wickets per innings is generally the number that justifies continued selection in a world wide scheme, unless there is just no one else.

Hadlee played 86 tests but only bowled 150 innings (86 test you would assume is 172 innings but he didn't thus why I prefer innings bowled) took 431 wickets (massive 2.9 wickets per innings) and that number is why he is a legend. Wasim Akram who only bowled 181 innings for 414 wickets (2.3 wickets per innings). Curtley Ambrose who did play 98 matches but he only bowled 179 innings took 405 wickets (2.3 wickets per innings). Glen McGrath also bowled 243 innings (same as Broad) but took 563 wickets (2.3 wickets per innings) Dale Steyn only bowled 171 innings for 439 wickets (2.6 wickets per innings). Even players who didn't make 400 wickets like Ian Botham 168 innings 383 wickets (2.3 wickets per innings) Dennis Lillee bowled 132 innings for 355 wickets (2.7 wickets per innings) Craig McDermott bowled 124 innings for 291 wickets (2.35 wickets per innings) You'll have to take my word for it but nearly every "record holding great bowlers" are averaging 2.3+ wickets per innings that is what makes them great. but that is where someone like Courtney Walsh with 2.15 wickets per innings or Jimmy Anderson with 2.1 wickets may just scrape in with the selection aspect but they're not "great", they only achieved what they achieved due to longevity not ability,

But I'll say that any player with an average of less than 2.1 has no business being anywhere near an international test team, especially an opening bowler, unless there is just no one else, then they are lucky to be selected, as in the case of Broad. You cannot have your No 1 or 2 bowlers taking 2.1 wickets per innings or under and expect to win, you need 5 bowlers if that is the case, you will lose more than you win, and questions should be raised when you're losing. Which is exactly what is happening to England, they play 5 bowlers nearly every test, relying on all rounders to help the batting line up.

Players like Kapil Dev weren't "great" bowlers, though he did play half his games in India. but a batting average of 31 helped him to become a legend in an all rounder aspect. Maybe England see Broad as an all rounder and with a batting average of around 20 maybe he is. 

Crap just woke to not the news I wanted to hear. Went a bit pear shaped after lunch for us. Again the late middle order failed to support Smith. Archer and Curran the destroyers. We can not continue to win matches when our openers put up 8 single- digit numbers for the series.. a record I am hearing. Again Smithy and Marnus were confronted with pressure.. 2-14 when their partnership began. If we come up short with a win for the series.. the major blame lies with Warner, Bancroft and Harris.

Agree with your summation, Baggers. 

It is is difficult to win Tests with such low opening stands. 

A series high of 13 for Aussie opening stands is shocking. The batters who follow are constantly batting under scoreboard pressure. 

Mitch Marsh will be kicking himself for the way he was out. Two balls earlier he had smoked a cover drive described by cricinfo as sublime to fall so softly shortly after. Why didnt Leach spill it as Siddle had done the day before and give us a much needed life.. Still all is not lost as England's batting has been no better than ours.. worse in fact. We have not succumbed to anywhere near their 67. Yet again they dont have a Steve Smith in their side. Still to all the doomsayers there is new life in the deck for or our quality attack so this match is far from over. Already this innings Hazlewood has had one dropped off his bowling and just missed a close LB. The deck may be even quicker tomorrow now it has dried out.

As far as most informed pundits are concerned, Broad has been the mainstay of their attack over 5 Tests. 

He has 20 odd wickets for this Ashes series. 

Who are we, as people who have never played Test cricket, to question his overall credentials as the 7th greatest wicket taker in Test history over a 12 year career? 

Broad has been a veritable thorn in Australia’s side home and away. Even if he has arguably higher strike rates and higher bowling averages than others who have played less Tests, he has been a damn good bowler! 

Broad has destroyed our openers, and most of our specialist left handed batters in this series. 

Fair play to him. 

Do you think we had better or worse conditions than England in our batting innings, Baggers? 

If we are  discussing the keeper's batting as being a key component of a supposedly disappointing series of retaining the Ashes, after a team rebuilding subsequent to the ball tempering fiasco in SA,  then the  top 6, as a collective unit, can't have done their job too well. Paine has the third highest batting average, 1 run behind Haddin, of all Aussie keepers in Test history.

Paine's captaincy, in terms of being a leader of men,  has generated praise from all and sundry who have insight into the job.

Paine's  brother, Nick, waxed lyrical in the local tabloid about the difference between before he took over as captain in  Smith's tenure as captain, and the current dressing room morale. Nick has visited the Aussie dressing room on a number of occasions.

Of course Langer is a big part of that too. As long as Paine 's keeping is good enough, I'm sure will be leading the Test team in a dearth of suitable options from the best players in the country.

Finch, although not good enough as a Test player, has  captained the one day team admirably too.

Wade also looked good for his 17 runs. Curran worried him, but was it loss of concentration that led to the dismissals of both Wade and Marsh?

I didn't see Paine's dismissal, but he usually finds ways to get out too.

Your first sentence is our batting in a nutshell, other than Smith no one can capitalise on there starts. It is like they get bored and want to get out.

Paine tried to drive a ball for four on a good length early in his innings and paid the price. Was sloppy

Specially disappointing for Marsh as he needs to nail a good game with both bat and ball to make our summer tests. We have handed them a 70 something lead because of these scores of 5, 3,19,17. Even Tim only just managed to trouble the scorers,1. 

Thats a tuffie DC. The deck has quickened since their innings so we had to face more pace and bounce.  Archer was almost express.. reminiscent of the danger he posed at Lords. Cummins and Hazlewood wont like that this deck is not providing the seam assistance of past games. while on the other hand Mitch Marsh will be licking his lips at the swing. That was the best we have seen him bowl in an international match. If the lack of seam continues Josh, specially has to be aware of not trying to swing it in his quest for wickets. 

 DC Paddles has a hate on Broad as Mike has a hate on Hazlewood. If I wanted a bowler to give me 100% every game and  who was prepared to put his reputation on the line by leaving everything on the paddock.I'd pick Stuart Broad.

At this point Marsh should focus on being a bowler, you can't average 25 and be batting 6. He averages less than Chris Woakes.

We have a final bowling spot up for grabs, he should focus getting in the team from that angle because he under no circumstances should be in the team if we need to rely on his batting in any shape.