Top all time wicket takers in Test cricket


Top all time wicket takers in Test cricket

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Decentric
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In a recent thread, Paddles, put up some great statistics showing the top 20 - 30 bowlers in Test cricket.

I'm hoping someone can post the same table he had here.

Cheers
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Decentric - 15 Sep 2019 10:37 AM
In a recent thread, Paddles, put up some great statistics showing the top 20 - 30 bowlers in Test cricket.

I'm hoping someone can post the same table he had here.

Cheers

Most wickets
PlayerSpanMatInnsBallsRunsWktsBBIBBMAveEconSR510
M Muralitharan (ICC/SL)1992-201013323044039181808009/5116/22022.722.4755.06722
SK Warne (AUS)1992-200714527340705179957088/7112/12825.412.6557.43710
A Kumble (INDIA)1990-2008132236408501835561910/7414/14929.652.6965.9358
JM Anderson (ENG)2003-201914927832359154915757/4211/7126.942.8756.2273
GD McGrath (AUS)1993-200712424329248121865638/2410/2721.642.4951.9293
CA Walsh (WI)1984-200113224230019126885197/3713/5524.442.5357.8223
SCJ Broad (ENG)2007-201913224326950133904678/1511/12128.672.9857.7172
DW Steyn (SA)2004-20199317118608100774397/5111/6022.953.2442.3265
N Kapil Dev (INDIA)1978-199413122727740128674349/8311/14629.642.7863.9232
HMRKB Herath (SL)1999-20189317025993121574339/12714/18428.072.8060.0349
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)1973-1990861502191896114319/5215/12322.292.6350.8369
SM Pollock (SA)1995-20081082022435397334217/8710/14723.112.3957.8161
Harbhajan Singh (INDIA)1998-201510319028580135374178/8415/21732.462.8468.5255
Wasim Akram (PAK)1985-20021041812262797794147/11911/11023.622.5954.6255
CEL Ambrose (WI)1988-2000981792210385014058/4511/8420.992.3054.5223
M Ntini (SA)1998-200910119020834112423907/3713/13228.823.2353.4184
IT Botham (ENG)1977-199210216821815108783838/3413/10628.402.9956.9274
MD Marshall (WI)1978-1991811511758478763767/2211/8920.942.6846.7224
Waqar Younis (PAK)1989-2003871541622487883737/7613/13523.563.2543.4225
NM Lyon (AUS)2011-20199117423360117273638/5013/15432.303.0164.3152
Imran Khan (PAK)1971-1992881421945882583628/5814/11622.812.5453.7236
DL Vettori (ICC/NZ)1997-201411318728814124413627/8712/14934.362.5979.5203
DK Lillee (AUS)1971-1984701321846784933557/8311/12323.922.7552.0237
WPUJC Vaas (SL)1994-200911119423438105013557/7114/19129.582.6866.0122
R Ashwin (INDIA)2011-2018651221837287003427/5913/14025.432.8453.7267
AA Donald (SA)1992-2002721291551973443308/7112/13922.252.8347.0203
RGD Willis (ENG)1971-1984901651735781903258/439/9225.202.8353.4160
MG Johnson (AUS)2007-2015731401600188913138/6112/12728.403.3351.1123
Z Khan (INDIA)2000-20149216518785102473117/8710/14932.943.2760.4111
B Lee (AUS)1999-2008761501653195543105/309/17130.813.4653.3100
M Morkel (SA)2006-2018861601649885503096/239/11027.663.1053.380
LR Gibbs (WI)1958-1976791482711589893098/3811/15729.091.9887.7182
FS Trueman (ENG)1952-1965671271517866253078/3112/11921.572.6149.4173
DL Underwood (ENG)1966-1982861512186276742978/5113/7125.832.1073.6176
JH Kallis (ICC/SA)1995-20131662722023295352926/549/9232.652.8269.250
CJ McDermott (AUS)1984-1996711241658683322918/9711/15728.633.0156.9142
I Sharma (INDIA)2007-2019921651749492902787/7410/10833.413.1862.991
BS Bedi (INDIA)1966-1979671182136476372667/9810/19428.712.1480.3141
Danish Kaneria (PAK)2000-2010611121769790822617/7712/9434.793.0767.8152
J Garner (WI)1977-1987581111316954332596/569/10820.972.4750.870
JN Gillespie (AUS)1996-2006711371423467702597/379/8026.132.8554.980
GP Swann (ENG)2008-2013601091534976422556/6510/13229.962.9860.1173
TA Boult (NZ)2011-2019631191398669472546/3010/8027.352.9855.081
JB Statham (ENG)1951-1965701291605662612527/3911/9724.842.3363.791
TG Southee (NZ)2008-2019671251487075062517/6410/10829.903.0259.281
MA Holding (WI)1975-1987601131268058982498/9214/14923.682.7950.9132
R Benaud (AUS)1952-1964631161910867042487/7211/10527.032.1077.0161
MJ Hoggard (ENG)2000-2008671221390975642487/6112/20530.503.2656.071
GD McKenzie (AUS)1961-1971601131768173282468/7110/9129.782.4871.8163
BS Chandrasekhar (INDIA)1964-197958971596371992428/7912/10429.742.7065.9162
AV Bedser (ENG)1946-195551921591858762367/4414/9924.892.2167.4155
J Srinath (INDIA)1991-2002671211510471962368/8613/13230.492.8564.0101
Abdul Qadir (PAK)1977-1990671111712677422369/5613/10132.802.7172.5155
GS Sobers (WI)1954-1974931592159979992356/738/8034.032.2291.960
AR Caddick (ENG)1993-2003621051355869992347/4610/21529.913.0957.9131
CS Martin (NZ)2000-2013711261402678782336/2611/18033.813.3760.1101
D Gough (ENG)1994-200358951182165032296/429/9228.393.3051.690
RR Lindwall (AUS)1946-1960611131365052512287/389/7023.032.3059.8120
SJ Harmison (ENG/ICC)2002-2009631151337571922267/1211/7631.823.2259.181
A Flintoff (ENG/ICC)1998-2009791371495174102265/588/15632.782.9766.130
PM Siddle (AUS)2008-2019671261390767772216/549/10430.662.9262.980
CL Cairns (NZ)1989-2004621041169864102187/2710/10029.403.2853.6131
CV Grimmett (AUS)1925-193637671451352312167/4014/19924.212.1667.1217
HH Streak (ZIM)1993-2005651021355960792166/739/7228.142.6962.770
MA Starc (AUS)2011-201952991076060772156/5011/9428.263.3850.0112
VD Philander (SA)2011-2019581091042046322146/2110/10221.642.6648.6132
MG Hughes (AUS)1985-199453971228560172128/8713/21728.382.9357.971
Shakib Al Hasan (BDESH)2007-201956951302065372107/3610/12431.123.0162.0182
SCG MacGill (AUS)1998-200844851123760382088/10812/10729.023.2254.0122
Saqlain Mushtaq (PAK)1995-200449861407062062088/16410/15529.832.6467.6133
Yasir Shah (PAK)2014-201935671129358322038/4114/18428.723.0955.6163
AME Roberts (WI)1974-198347901113551742027/5412/12125.612.7855.1112
JA Snow (ENG)1965-197649931202153872027/4010/14226.662.6859.581
JR Thomson (AUS)1972-198551901053556012006/469/10528.003.1852.680


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When I was a kid, it was all about reaching the 300 wicket club to be a test great, for some on here more seasoned than my myself, it would have possibly been the 200 club. 

I notice people don't really talk about the wicket club anymore.
Edited
5 Years Ago by Paddles
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Thanks, Paddles.

I'm just fascinated looking at this list.

Same with the batting list.

There many bowlers who have played many more Tests particularly  from other countries who have been far more successful over a sustained career than I realised.

I'm just popping in for  a few mins, bu tooth the batten gan bowling threads are fascinating.

I had no idea Chris Martin and Matthew Hoggard took more wickets in their careers than Flintoff and Harmison.

Nathan Lyon is similar to Imran Khan, although the latter bowled on a lot of Pakistani wickets.
Edited
5 Years Ago by Decentric
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Decentric - 19 Sep 2019 12:09 AM
Thanks, Paddles.

I'm just fascinated looking at this list.

Same with the batting list.

There many bowlers who have played many more Tests particularly  from other countries who have been far more successful over a sustained career than I realised.

I'm just popping in for  a few mins, bu tooth the batten gan bowling threads are fascinating.

I had no idea Chris Martin and Matthew Hoggard took more wickets in their careers than Flintoff and Harmison.

Nathan Lyon is similar to Imran Khan, although the latter bowled on a lot of Pakistani wickets.

o_O

Imran Khan was a pace spear head, who until he injured his leg in 1983, was on target to be the greatest bowler who ever lived. Those Pakistan pitches were initially quite unfavourable for him, but eventually Pakistan managed to find ways for Pakistani pitches to suit their swing bowlers. :P Imran managed to play many more years again after 1983 (hey had a 21 year long long career -71 to 92, incredible!), but was never the same, but his batting became more prominent. Widely proclaimed to be the 2nd best allrounder in history after Sobers, personally - I think it may actually be Khan giving his immense bowling talent despite Sober's batting talent. I don't see many things similar between an allrounder fast bowling great like  Imran who took wickets at 22.81 - playing in Pakistan - seriously check Lillee's record there (he averages over 100!), and a right arm spinner who bats number 11 like Lyon taking wickets at 32?

Lyon is outperforming an allrounder he does have more in common with the ball in Vettori as a finger spinner. But imo DV post back surgery barely turned the ball and played in the era of huge batting scores. Someone could say Lyon is a better bowler than DV and I'll accept that, though. Vettori mach 2 without Bond, was very very very ordinary. He was good before back surgery though as a kid when he spun the ball.

Chris Martin was absolutely ordinary, unless bowling to left handers. He swung it, but not much. Lefties he got the angle really well. But most batsmen ar right handed. So teams nullified him. He nearly bowled us to a win in India, but Bennett got injured and we were a bowler down and lost to a Harbijan century. I kid you not, Bhaji put a century on us with his filthy slogging :( The Martin era was bad for NZC fans. The main reason being, we had Bond, but he was always ICL banned or injured. It really hurt. Cos when Bond was the attack leader, even Vettori became a world class bowler. I can statsguru this if you don't believe me. Without Bond, that team was just horrid for the 2000's. The NZ team went into a turnaround in late 2012, when Boult emerged. Boult isn't great, but Southee, Wagner, as a trio are three good bowlers. But between 1990 post Hadlee in England, and 2012, NZ was only ever much chop when Bond was around. We totally relied on him to win games in the 2000's. Cairns did well, and won us a series in England in 1999, but again, he is a famous allrounder, not a genuine famous attack leader.


Mat
InnsBallsRunsWktsBBIBBMAveEconSR4w5w10
Tests183233721922876/5110/9922.093.4138.7751
Just look at Bond's strike rate. His whole career is frustrating from a NZ pov. We knew we had the best strike bowler in the world, who could swing, reverse swing, and bowl 150 clicks, and he was always injured or banned. It was really frustrating.

After losing Grimett, NZ cricket really simply has a Cowie era who played only 9 tests in 12 years but starred for  (the 48's), http://www.espncricinfo.com/newzealand/content/player/36616.html -

and then bar Bruce Taylor, nothing till Hadlee. 


View overall figures [change view]
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Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 10 remove wickets taken greater than or equal to 10 from query
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Overall figures
J Cowie1937-19499132028969456/4010/14021.532.8645.041investigate this query
SE Bond2001-2009183233721922876/5110/9922.093.4138.751investigate this query
Sir RJ Hadlee1973-1990861502191896114319/5215/12322.292.6350.8369investigate this query
GF Cresswell1949-195134650292136/1686/16822.462.6950.010investigate this query
WER Somerville2018-201936818352144/757/12725.142.5858.400investigate this query
BR Taylor1965-19733053633429531117/749/18226.602.7957.040investigate this query
TA Boult2011-2019631191398669472546/3010/8027.352.9855.081investigate this query
N Wagner2012-20194279916747881747/399/7327.513.1352.670investigate this query
DJ Nash1992-2001325361962649936/2711/16928.482.5666.631investigate this query
MR Gillespie2007-201258868631226/1136/14228.684.3639.430investigate this query
GR Larsen1994-19968141967689243/575/8828.702.1081.900investigate this query
RO Collinge1965-19783562768933931166/639/16629.252.6466.230investigate this query
SB Doull1992-2000325160532872987/659/11429.302.8461.760investigate this query
HT Davis1994-1997591010499175/636/9829.352.9659.410investigate this query
CL Cairns1989-2004621041169864102187/2710/10029.403.2853.6131investigate this query
FJ Cameron1961-1965193545701849625/349/7029.822.4273.730investigate this query
TG Southee2008-2019671251487075062517/6410/10829.903.0259.281investigate this query
CJ Drum2001-200259806482163/365/16630.123.5850.300investigate this query
C de Grandhomme2016-2019183325731070356/417/6430.572.4973.510investigate this query
AR MacGibbon1951-1958263756592160705/648/10530.852.2980.810investigate this query
RC Motz1961-19693255703431481006/638/11331.482.6870.350investigate this query
DR Tuffey2000-2010264548772445776/549/11631.753.0063.320investigate this query
EJ Chatfield1975-198943731036039581236/7310/12432.172.2984.231investigate this query
AY Patel2018-20197121589708225/597/12332.182.6772.220investigate this query
SB O'Connor1997-2001193436671724535/517/10432.522.8269.110investigate this query
BL Cairns1974-198543721062842801307/7410/14432.922.4181.761investigate this query
GA Bartlett1961-196810181768792246/386/9033.002.6873.610investigate this query
KD Mills2004-2009193129021453444/166/7733.023.0065.900investigate this query
JDP Oram2002-2009335549641983604/416/6333.052.3982.700investigate this query
IE O'Brien2005-2009223743942429736/757/16533.273.3160.110investigate this query
JR Reid1949-1965587277252835856/606/6033.352.2090.810investigate this query
DR Hadlee1969-1978264448832389714/307/6133.642.9368.700investigate this query
CS Martin2000-2013711261402678782336/2611/18033.813.3760.1101investigate this query
JEC Franklin2001-2013315447672786826/1197/11733.973.5058.130investigate this query
DL Vettori1997-201411218528652123303617/8712/14934.152.5879.3203investigate this query
MB Owens1992-19948121074585174/995/13734.413.2663.100investigate this query
SL Boock1978-1989304865982564747/878/15634.642.3389.140investigate this query
W Watson1986-1993152534861387406/786/9034.672.3887.110investigate this query
DK Morrison1987-199748761006455491607/898/8334.683.3062.9100investigate this query
The even sadder thing, bowling historically has been our stronger suit. But we are finally producing batsmen, now. And left the likes of Ryder, Munro, Young out of the team, cos we have supplies.
Edited
5 Years Ago by Paddles
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Paddles - 18 Sep 2019 11:14 AM
Decentric - 15 Sep 2019 10:37 AM

Most wickets
PlayerSpanMatInnsBallsRunsWktsBBIBBMAveEconSR510
M Muralitharan (ICC/SL)1992-201013323044039181808009/5116/22022.722.4755.06722
SK Warne (AUS)1992-200714527340705179957088/7112/12825.412.6557.43710
A Kumble (INDIA)1990-2008132236408501835561910/7414/14929.652.6965.9358
JM Anderson (ENG)2003-201914927832359154915757/4211/7126.942.8756.2273
GD McGrath (AUS)1993-200712424329248121865638/2410/2721.642.4951.9293
CA Walsh (WI)1984-200113224230019126885197/3713/5524.442.5357.8223
SCJ Broad (ENG)2007-201913224326950133904678/1511/12128.672.9857.7172
DW Steyn (SA)2004-20199317118608100774397/5111/6022.953.2442.3265
N Kapil Dev (INDIA)1978-199413122727740128674349/8311/14629.642.7863.9232
HMRKB Herath (SL)1999-20189317025993121574339/12714/18428.072.8060.0349
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)1973-1990861502191896114319/5215/12322.292.6350.8369
SM Pollock (SA)1995-20081082022435397334217/8710/14723.112.3957.8161
Harbhajan Singh (INDIA)1998-201510319028580135374178/8415/21732.462.8468.5255
Wasim Akram (PAK)1985-20021041812262797794147/11911/11023.622.5954.6255
CEL Ambrose (WI)1988-2000981792210385014058/4511/8420.992.3054.5223
M Ntini (SA)1998-200910119020834112423907/3713/13228.823.2353.4184
IT Botham (ENG)1977-199210216821815108783838/3413/10628.402.9956.9274
MD Marshall (WI)1978-1991811511758478763767/2211/8920.942.6846.7224
Waqar Younis (PAK)1989-2003871541622487883737/7613/13523.563.2543.4225
NM Lyon (AUS)2011-20199117423360117273638/5013/15432.303.0164.3152
Imran Khan (PAK)1971-1992881421945882583628/5814/11622.812.5453.7236
DL Vettori (ICC/NZ)1997-201411318728814124413627/8712/14934.362.5979.5203
DK Lillee (AUS)1971-1984701321846784933557/8311/12323.922.7552.0237
WPUJC Vaas (SL)1994-200911119423438105013557/7114/19129.582.6866.0122
R Ashwin (INDIA)2011-2018651221837287003427/5913/14025.432.8453.7267
AA Donald (SA)1992-2002721291551973443308/7112/13922.252.8347.0203
RGD Willis (ENG)1971-1984901651735781903258/439/9225.202.8353.4160
MG Johnson (AUS)2007-2015731401600188913138/6112/12728.403.3351.1123
Z Khan (INDIA)2000-20149216518785102473117/8710/14932.943.2760.4111
B Lee (AUS)1999-2008761501653195543105/309/17130.813.4653.3100
M Morkel (SA)2006-2018861601649885503096/239/11027.663.1053.380
LR Gibbs (WI)1958-1976791482711589893098/3811/15729.091.9887.7182
FS Trueman (ENG)1952-1965671271517866253078/3112/11921.572.6149.4173
DL Underwood (ENG)1966-1982861512186276742978/5113/7125.832.1073.6176
JH Kallis (ICC/SA)1995-20131662722023295352926/549/9232.652.8269.250
CJ McDermott (AUS)1984-1996711241658683322918/9711/15728.633.0156.9142
I Sharma (INDIA)2007-2019921651749492902787/7410/10833.413.1862.991
BS Bedi (INDIA)1966-1979671182136476372667/9810/19428.712.1480.3141
Danish Kaneria (PAK)2000-2010611121769790822617/7712/9434.793.0767.8152
J Garner (WI)1977-1987581111316954332596/569/10820.972.4750.870
JN Gillespie (AUS)1996-2006711371423467702597/379/8026.132.8554.980
GP Swann (ENG)2008-2013601091534976422556/6510/13229.962.9860.1173
TA Boult (NZ)2011-2019631191398669472546/3010/8027.352.9855.081
JB Statham (ENG)1951-1965701291605662612527/3911/9724.842.3363.791
TG Southee (NZ)2008-2019671251487075062517/6410/10829.903.0259.281
MA Holding (WI)1975-1987601131268058982498/9214/14923.682.7950.9132
R Benaud (AUS)1952-1964631161910867042487/7211/10527.032.1077.0161
MJ Hoggard (ENG)2000-2008671221390975642487/6112/20530.503.2656.071
GD McKenzie (AUS)1961-1971601131768173282468/7110/9129.782.4871.8163
BS Chandrasekhar (INDIA)1964-197958971596371992428/7912/10429.742.7065.9162
AV Bedser (ENG)1946-195551921591858762367/4414/9924.892.2167.4155
J Srinath (INDIA)1991-2002671211510471962368/8613/13230.492.8564.0101
Abdul Qadir (PAK)1977-1990671111712677422369/5613/10132.802.7172.5155
GS Sobers (WI)1954-1974931592159979992356/738/8034.032.2291.960
AR Caddick (ENG)1993-2003621051355869992347/4610/21529.913.0957.9131
CS Martin (NZ)2000-2013711261402678782336/2611/18033.813.3760.1101
D Gough (ENG)1994-200358951182165032296/429/9228.393.3051.690
RR Lindwall (AUS)1946-1960611131365052512287/389/7023.032.3059.8120
SJ Harmison (ENG/ICC)2002-2009631151337571922267/1211/7631.823.2259.181
A Flintoff (ENG/ICC)1998-2009791371495174102265/588/15632.782.9766.130
PM Siddle (AUS)2008-2019671261390767772216/549/10430.662.9262.980
CL Cairns (NZ)1989-2004621041169864102187/2710/10029.403.2853.6131
CV Grimmett (AUS)1925-193637671451352312167/4014/19924.212.1667.1217
HH Streak (ZIM)1993-2005651021355960792166/739/7228.142.6962.770
MA Starc (AUS)2011-201952991076060772156/5011/9428.263.3850.0112
VD Philander (SA)2011-2019581091042046322146/2110/10221.642.6648.6132
MG Hughes (AUS)1985-199453971228560172128/8713/21728.382.9357.971
Shakib Al Hasan (BDESH)2007-201956951302065372107/3610/12431.123.0162.0182
SCG MacGill (AUS)1998-200844851123760382088/10812/10729.023.2254.0122
Saqlain Mushtaq (PAK)1995-200449861407062062088/16410/15529.832.6467.6133
Yasir Shah (PAK)2014-201935671129358322038/4114/18428.723.0955.6163
AME Roberts (WI)1974-198347901113551742027/5412/12125.612.7855.1112
JA Snow (ENG)1965-197649931202153872027/4010/14226.662.6859.581
JR Thomson (AUS)1972-198551901053556012006/469/10528.003.1852.680


Shows Anderson took almost two extra years and 27 extra matches to pass McGraths record. Sizeable difference in their respective averages and strike rates. Also shows clearly that Kallis was a moderate bowler. On those modest figures he'd never be picked for that discipline alone so rules out being labelled a genuine all rounder. An outstanding batsmen who bowled.
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baggygreenmania - 19 Sep 2019 2:33 PM
Paddles - 18 Sep 2019 11:14 AM

Shows Anderson took almost two extra years and 27 extra matches to pass McGraths record. Sizeable difference in their respective averages and strike rates. Also shows clearly that Kallis was a moderate bowler. On those modest figures he'd never be picked for that discipline alone so rules out being labelled a genuine all rounder. An outstanding batsmen who bowled.

Agree with all the above to be honest bar the genuine allrounder thing. I'm not sure I agree with the term. I think you can have a stronger suit of batting, to be a 5th bowler. I think there are two types, batting ar and bowling ar. Khan is a bowling AR, though he may have made the team on his batting later. Sobers as a bowler? Very poor SR.  Worse average than Kallis. And not many wickets per test. Flintoff was oft never getting picked on either skill alone. 

So - I know your use of the terms genuine allrounder, either skill set, but I just don't think its either widely applicable or often that desired. Most team really want a batsman who does a fair job with the ball. But they really want those runs. But everyone wants their bowls to bat well. That's why Dev, Khan, Hadlee and Botham were such a big deal.
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5 Years Ago by Paddles
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Paddles - 19 Sep 2019 1:27 PM
Decentric - 19 Sep 2019 12:09 AM

o_O

Imran Khan was a pace spear head, who until he injured his leg in 1983, was on target to be the greatest bowler who ever lived. Those Pakistan pitches were initially quite unfavourable for him, but eventually Pakistan managed to find ways for Pakistani pitches to suit their swing bowlers. :P Imran managed to play many more years again after 1983, but was never the same, but his batting became more prominent. Widely proclaimed to be the 2nd best allrounder in history after Sobers, personally - I think it may actually be Khan giving his immense bowling talent despite Sober's batting talent. I don't see many things similar between an allrounder fast bowling great like  Imran who took wickets at 22.81 - playing in Pakistan - seriously check Lillee's record there (he averages over 100!), and a right arm spinner who bats number 11 like Lyon taking wickets at 32?

Lyon is outperforming an allrounder he does have more in common with the ball in Vettori as a finger spinner. But imo DV post back surgery barely turned the ball and played in the era of huge batting scores. Someone could say Lyon is a better bowler than DV and I'll accept that, though. Vettori mach 2 without Bond, was very very very ordinary. He was good before back surgery though as a kid when he spun the ball.

Chris Martin was absolutely ordinary, unless bowling to left handers. He swung it, but not much. Lefties he got the angle really well. But most batsmen ar right handed. So teams nullified him. He nearly bowled us to a win in India, but Bennett got injured and we were a bowler down and lost to a Harbijan century. I kid you not, Bhaji put a century on us with his filthy slogging :( The Martin era was bad for NZC fans. The main reason being, we had Bond, but he was always ICL banned or injured. It really hurt. Cos when Bond was the attack leader, even Vettori became a world class bowler. I can statsguru this if you don't believe me. Without Bond, that team was just horrid for the 2000's. The NZ team went into a turnaround in late 2012, when Boult emerged. Boult isn't great, but Southee, Wagner, as a trio are three good bowlers. But between 1990 post Hadlee in England, and 2012, NZ was only ever much chop when Bond was around. We totally relied on him to win games in the 2000's. Cairns did well, and won us a series in England in 1999, but again, he is a famous allrounder, not a genuine famous attack leader.


Mat
InnsBallsRunsWktsBBIBBMAveEconSR4w5w10
Tests183233721922876/5110/9922.093.4138.7751
Just look at Bond's strike rate. His whole career is frustrating from a NZ pov. We knew we had the best strike bowler in the world, who could swing, reverse swing, and bowl 150 clicks, and he was always injured or banned. It was really frustrating.

After losing Grimett, NZ cricket really simply has a Cowie era who played only 9 tests in 12 years but starred for  (the 48's), http://www.espncricinfo.com/newzealand/content/player/36616.html -

and then bar Bruce Taylor, nothing till Hadlee. 


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J Cowie1937-19499132028969456/4010/14021.532.8645.041investigate this query
SE Bond2001-2009183233721922876/5110/9922.093.4138.751investigate this query
Sir RJ Hadlee1973-1990861502191896114319/5215/12322.292.6350.8369investigate this query
GF Cresswell1949-195134650292136/1686/16822.462.6950.010investigate this query
WER Somerville2018-201936818352144/757/12725.142.5858.400investigate this query
BR Taylor1965-19733053633429531117/749/18226.602.7957.040investigate this query
TA Boult2011-2019631191398669472546/3010/8027.352.9855.081investigate this query
N Wagner2012-20194279916747881747/399/7327.513.1352.670investigate this query
DJ Nash1992-2001325361962649936/2711/16928.482.5666.631investigate this query
MR Gillespie2007-201258868631226/1136/14228.684.3639.430investigate this query
GR Larsen1994-19968141967689243/575/8828.702.1081.900investigate this query
RO Collinge1965-19783562768933931166/639/16629.252.6466.230investigate this query
SB Doull1992-2000325160532872987/659/11429.302.8461.760investigate this query
HT Davis1994-1997591010499175/636/9829.352.9659.410investigate this query
CL Cairns1989-2004621041169864102187/2710/10029.403.2853.6131investigate this query
FJ Cameron1961-1965193545701849625/349/7029.822.4273.730investigate this query
TG Southee2008-2019671251487075062517/6410/10829.903.0259.281investigate this query
CJ Drum2001-200259806482163/365/16630.123.5850.300investigate this query
C de Grandhomme2016-2019183325731070356/417/6430.572.4973.510investigate this query
AR MacGibbon1951-1958263756592160705/648/10530.852.2980.810investigate this query
RC Motz1961-19693255703431481006/638/11331.482.6870.350investigate this query
DR Tuffey2000-2010264548772445776/549/11631.753.0063.320investigate this query
EJ Chatfield1975-198943731036039581236/7310/12432.172.2984.231investigate this query
AY Patel2018-20197121589708225/597/12332.182.6772.220investigate this query
SB O'Connor1997-2001193436671724535/517/10432.522.8269.110investigate this query
BL Cairns1974-198543721062842801307/7410/14432.922.4181.761investigate this query
GA Bartlett1961-196810181768792246/386/9033.002.6873.610investigate this query
KD Mills2004-2009193129021453444/166/7733.023.0065.900investigate this query
JDP Oram2002-2009335549641983604/416/6333.052.3982.700investigate this query
IE O'Brien2005-2009223743942429736/757/16533.273.3160.110investigate this query
JR Reid1949-1965587277252835856/606/6033.352.2090.810investigate this query
DR Hadlee1969-1978264448832389714/307/6133.642.9368.700investigate this query
CS Martin2000-2013711261402678782336/2611/18033.813.3760.1101investigate this query
JEC Franklin2001-2013315447672786826/1197/11733.973.5058.130investigate this query
DL Vettori1997-201411218528652123303617/8712/14934.152.5879.3203investigate this query
MB Owens1992-19948121074585174/995/13734.413.2663.100investigate this query
SL Boock1978-1989304865982564747/878/15634.642.3389.140investigate this query
W Watson1986-1993152534861387406/786/9034.672.3887.110investigate this query
DK Morrison1987-199748761006455491607/898/8334.683.3062.9100investigate this query
The even sadder thing, bowling historically has been our stronger suit. But we are finally producing batsmen, now. And left the likes of Ryder, Munro, Young out of the team, cos we have supplies.

Shane Bond. Now there is a waste of talent cruelled by injury. 18 matches in 8 years. What an average and strike rate.
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5 Years Ago by baggygreenmania
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Decentric - 15 Sep 2019 10:37 AM
In a recent thread, Paddles, put up some great statistics showing the top 20 - 30 bowlers in Test cricket.

I'm hoping someone can post the same table he had here.

Cheers

Broad's 8/15 stacks up pretty nicely on that list. From that day that Australia would rather forget.

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Decentric - 15 Sep 2019 10:37 AM
In a recent thread, Paddles, put up some great statistics showing the top 20 - 30 bowlers in Test cricket.

I'm hoping someone can post the same table he had here.

Cheers

Didn't Craig McDermott get 30 wickets in a single Ashes series? I would have thought he would have played more than 70 tests over 12 years. Injuries, I guess. Didn't play in the "Rotation of quicks" era!
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ThingyBob - 19 Sep 2019 5:12 PM
Decentric - 15 Sep 2019 10:37 AM

Didn't Craig McDermott get 30 wickets in a single Ashes series? I would have thought he would have played more than 70 tests over 12 years. Injuries, I guess. Didn't play in the "Rotation of quicks" era!

Not just injuries. Injuries definitely cut his career short at the end. He was more than on target for 300. He came in young, and early. And was dropped a lot. Border nearly sent him from England in 1985. You can watch it on youtube.  Aus had SA rebel tours which saw Rackeman and Alderman get banned.  Which gave McDermott many early chances and he never seized them. Bruce Reid is the talent Australia really lost to injury. He was a very fine bowler. And so incredibly tall. There was Hughes and Henry Lawson in Billy's era also. And you had a thing for Mike Whitney as another left armer to replace Reid when he was so often injured. There was also Ponting's uncle, Greg Campbell? Something like that. McDermott never played a singe test in 1989 or 1990.  Once Rackerman and Alderman did their time, they were brought back.

McDermott really wasn't settled in the team until 1991. 

Reid was the Aussie bowler people feared back then. Except England in England, Alderman scared the hell out of them. Gooch had an answer machine message "Sorry I missed your call, I'm out, probably lbw by Alderman"


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Paddles - 19 Sep 2019 5:31 PM
ThingyBob - 19 Sep 2019 5:12 PM

Not just injuries. Injuries definitely cut his career short at the end. He was more than on target for 300. He came in young, and early. And was dropped a lot. Border nearly sent him from England in 1985. You can watch it on youtube.  Aus had SA rebel tours which saw Rackeman and Alderman get banned.  Which gave McDermott many early chances and he never seized them. Bruce Reid is the talent Australia really lost to injury. He was a very fine bowler. And so incredibly tall. There was Hughes and Henry Lawson in Billy's era also. And you had a thing for Mike Whitney as another left armer to replace Reid when he was so often injured. There was also Ponting's uncle, Greg Campbell? Something like that. McDermott never played a singe test in 1989 or 1990.  Once Rackerman and Alderman did their time, they were brought back.

McDermott really wasn't settled in the team until 1991. 

Reid was the Aussie bowler people feared back then. Except England in England, Alderman scared the hell out of them. Gooch had an answer machine message "Sorry I missed your call, I'm out, probably lbw by Alderman"


Yes I remember the comedian 'The 12th Man's' cry of "Bruce Reid! He's snapped in half!" What a great answer phone message btw!
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Look at Herath's terrific record!

After Murali was no balled in Aus, we've barely seen SL play Test cricket in Aus. I don't think Murali ever bowled another ball in Aus after that no ball call.

If I hadn't had pay TV I would  not have even known who Herath was? Also, given how successful Sangakarra has been, we've also seen him play little Test cricket in Aus.
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baggygreenmania - 19 Sep 2019 2:53 PM
Paddles - 19 Sep 2019 1:27 PM

Shane Bond. Now there is a waste of talent cruelled by injury. 18 matches in 8 years. What an average and strike rate.

Did Bond only play 18 Tests in 8 years?

Wow!

Why was he suspended?
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Decentric - 19 Sep 2019 9:57 PM
baggygreenmania - 19 Sep 2019 2:53 PM

Did Bond only play 18 Tests in 8 years?

Wow!

Why was he suspended?

BCCI got him banned. Before the IPL, there was the ICL, which was not owned by the BCCI, but Essel TV media who wanted more cricket content, and the BCCI flipped its lid. ICC didn't care, why should it? Its just a cricket competition, who cares if its BCCI or not. So Bond asked NZC whether he could play in the ICL and NZC said "of course you may Shane - no worries". Superstar Bond then lands a million dollar a year deal, much more than the 100k NZ deal at the time. In the mean time, the BCCI is going to total war with the ICL, and having a right tantrum.  There were all sorts of law cases and allegations and what not. You know what its like when two powerful corporations goto all-out war. 

One of the things the BCCI did was flex its financial muscle at the ICC, and get people in exchange for those lucrative Indian tours, to classify the ICL as "rebel" and ban all the players from international if they remained with the ICL. NZC was crushed. But the motion was not passed at the ICC not stopping BCCI from carrying out its threats. Bond in such a rare moment of honesty as compared to some of other Indian Cricket benefactors, just said, "I'm taking the money and setting my family up for life". Bond remained available at all times to play for NZ if fit. This is what really upset Kiwi fans. He didn't back out of NZC commitments. He had done everything right. And I think NZ did play him once in 1 test occasion between ICL games, but the BCCI came down hard on Bond and NZC. First the ICC bans were unofficial, England warned its players not to play ICL or they risked their careers at home, but over time the bans were basically made official globally - though perhaps not entirely lawful. . So Bond was banned for another 18 months straight until the ICL was shut down, and the BCCI offered clemency to the overseas players that had participated. 

The banning of intl players for playing in the ICL was disgraceful imo. Absolutely bully boy nonsense. They at no time were ever employees of the BCCI.

Then as you know, the BCCI set up the IPL, following the same ideas as the ICL, and has become even more powerful. But the ICL was first. The BCCI wrecked it, and they cost a ton of Bond games being banned over a 2 year period give or take. But once they unbanned him, they bought him in the IPL as soon as they could.

The ICL Bond saga was also a precursor for the early retirements of NZ players to t20 leagues as there is more money in it. McCullum, Flemming, Vettorri,  (techinically he claimed he was injured) all trotted into t20 life, like the likes of Gayle, Pollard, Dwayne Bravo etc. Even coach Hesson wandered off a year early on his contract!

The ICL incident reveals a lot about how the BCCI views cricket. They don't run it like a charity to promote cricket in India. They see it as their monopoly. And it also reveals how they will conduct themselves flexing muscle at the ICC with the fellow boards. World cricket was very near to the point of inevitable collapse when England and Aus buddied upto the BCCI for the Big 3 profits and power reallocation. Fortunately, some Aus cricket journalists like Jarred Kimber said "this is wrong!" - made a film called "death of a gentleman" and stirred up some protest. Then Tim May managed to get into a position of influence and change the Australian viewpoint at the ICC on Big 3 thinking. 

The BCCI will not release any of their players for foreign t20 leagues. Ever. Why? To make the IPL seem more special. They wouldn't let Afghanistan host its t20 comp in India, but lets them host their intls there. Why? To make the IPL seem more special. BCCI supporters and their agents have consistently been less than supportive of the Hundred.

Did you know that every country bar is on an IPL window of no internationals during the IPL? No intl cricket in April May.https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/id/21746867/ipl-now-window-icc-future-tours-programme

 This has unofficially been going on for a whole now, with England hosting Pakistan twice in May as Pakistanis are banned from the IPL. The problem is, in 2015, NZ's tour of England conflicted directly with the IPL, NZC said they could skip warmups, so the IPL players flew in 2 days before the first test. Even then they were losing money cos the IPL was still going. BMac retired internationals before he ever had an IPL clash again. But WI, SL, UAE, Pak, Aus, NZ  - everyone gets down from intl cricket for the IPL. There is literally no other cricket to watch in the world for 2 months unless England host Pakistan. Initially I thought this was a good, because it stopped IPL retirements, but its not stopping the retirements, there are so many more leagues. Even Canada has a pro t20 league... The entire XI's are imports...

Anyway - went off topic a bit there. But the BCCI is a behemoth. And if Aus and Eng don't look after world cricket, Ire, NZ, SA, WI, we're all history to the game. The problem is, everyone is just worried about themselves. But cricket is not rival businesses, the dance literally needs 2 to tango. I just hope NZ doesn't have to play in England, or SL, or Bangldesh when the Hundred is on. But we're not scheduled to tour England - the schedule goes to 2023... we havn't been there since 2015... lol. Australia comming to NZ, not scheduled, at all you were last here 2016...

SA and NZ are ranked 2nd and 3rd in test cricket. Just look at this rubbish...



I have serious issues with the BCCI. But I have some serious issues with world cricket too. BCCI are just the worst of the lot.

NZ and SA are becoming the lil 2 of world cricket. Maybe its out management. I don't know. Anyway, NZ players have plenty of time to play PCL, CSL, CPL, IPL, NatWest Blast, the Hundred, BPL,
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What is so good about Bond, is that he is straight up about the financial aspect. He never pulls the "time at home with family" nonsense that the jet setters seem to forget. One former NZ coach pulled that line, and withina  yeaar was applying for the Indian Head Coach role!!!! I mean c'mon.

Bond was NZ's bowling coach that led the turn around in NZC fortunes from 2012-2014/2015. Southee has deteriorated without him. Anyway, we lost Bond as bowling coach to IPL (we lose all our coaches to IPL) - and then Bond got a BBL gig too, but in between that, he does have a lot of spare time, so he has helped coach NZA players. This has meant he is still finding ways, unlike Flem, McCullum, Vettori, Hesson et al, to contribute to NZ cricket advancement. 

So until the BBL starts, and outside of IPL commitments, he is happy to work on short term contracts with NZC which has been used to do some NZA oversight. Bond doesn't need the pittance he would get from that, he does it for the love.

He actually seems like a splendid chap. When he was asked why he retired instead of bowling slower and not injuring himself, he simply said "I want to bowl fast, I am a fast bowler". He was still getting through at some masters cricket series at 145km/h years later.

Uncompromising simplicity but honest. So very honest. Probably why he such a good coach. He would tell them straight up. 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/newzealand/content/story/483689.html

This is Bond's take on it:

"What I'll never understand is why it had to be one or the other, ICL or playing for New Zealand, especially when I received a cast-iron assurance that I could do both, and my contract with New Zealand Cricket certainly allowed for it," Bond said in his book Looking Back. "In the end I became a victim of politics."As distasteful as that might be, I could learn to live with that, but what I can't live with is the suggestion that in the end I didn't want to play for my country."

Bond signed with the ICL in January 2008  [sic 2007] and was not considered for the national team for nearly two years due to his involvement with the unauthorised league. He made his international comeback in June 2009 when NZC allowed players to return to the national fold on the condition that they terminate their ICL contract.Bond, who played for Delhi Giants, was earlier in the year, snapped up by IPL franchise Kolkata Knight Riders, who bid US$750,000 for him at the auction. He still stands by his decision to play in the ICL though. "One thing I'll never regret is signing to play in the Indian Cricket League. Not at all. I've achieved security for my family and in the long term that is more important than a few Test and one-day caps.

Bond signed with the ICL in January 2008 and was not considered for the national team for nearly two years due to his involvement with the unauthorised league. He made his international comeback in June 2009 when NZC allowed players to return to the national fold on the condition that they terminate their ICL contract.Bond, who played for Delhi Giants, was earlier in the year, snapped up by IPL franchise Kolkata Knight Riders, who bid US$750,000 for him at the auction. He still stands by his decision to play in the ICL though. "One thing I'll never regret is signing to play in the Indian Cricket League. Not at all. I've achieved security for my family and in the long term that is more important than a few Test and one-day caps.

"Although I had been on a good contract by New Zealand standards, I hadn't got rich out of the game. I'd done all right, obviously, but I simply hadn't played long enough to accumulate the sort of income that would provide long-term security for my family once my career ended." [sic he is being diplomatic here, NZC wages have increased and still don't offer security for family men when they retire - his ICL deal would ahve been about 8 times the value of his national contract]

Bond recalled the discussion he had with NZC chief Justin Vaughan when he was told his contract with the board would be terminated due to his links with the ICL. "'Excuse me?' was about the only response I could come up with," Bond said. "So let's get this straight, it was okay for NZC to be in breach of this regulation as long as the wrong people didn't find out? Or had they just not done their homework properly? I admit I lost it a bit here and, for the first and only time, I swore at Justin."

Bond said he opted against the legal route out of consideration for himself, his board and his team-mates even though it could have worked in his favour. "There was talk that India would not honour their commitment to tour here in 2009, and that other New Zealand guys who had signed with the IPL would have their contracts torn up," he said. "I would have suffered, NZC would have suffered, and my mates would have suffered. In the end it was better just to suck it up and move on."

Basically, BCCI banned the ICL players globally. They threatened everyone and flexed muscles at the ICC. The bans were never official, not likely lawful, but they were actual. NZC was powerless to stop it. If we played Bond, India wouldn't tour, and would kick all NZ players out of the IPL? Okay... Same went for every nation. BCCI just wanted to kill the ICL at all cost. And they did. We lost then current intls Vincent, Tuffey, McMillan and Bond to the bans. But Bond was our best player. Astle and Cairns had basically retired from intls, so their bans weren't so sorely felt. Also lost Andre Adams and Hamish Marshall.

BCCI just crushed NZC, and asked us to be grateful. And that's about when world cricket realized there was an elephant in the room. They would even blacklist anyone who lent the ICL a stadium. A lot of the time cricket stadiums are owned by government! BCCI was like - blacklist you and take away cricket from your stadium.

It wasn't just NZ that got crushed, Pakistan got absolutely gutted. They lost their best batsman in Mohammad Yousef - who was  the best test in the world in 2006. They lost Abdul Razzaq, Imran Farhat - SA lost Nantie Haywood. Basically the poorer nations got shafted the most, but everyone got shafted. Jason GIllespie wasn't even allowed to coach juniors in Australia cos he played in the ICL. 

BCCI had a tantrum, and the world gave in to them. Since then - they have known they can have tantrums and get what they want. 




Edited
5 Years Ago by Paddles
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ThingyBob - 19 Sep 2019 5:12 PM
Decentric - 15 Sep 2019 10:37 AM

Didn't Craig McDermott get 30 wickets in a single Ashes series? I would have thought he would have played more than 70 tests over 12 years. Injuries, I guess. Didn't play in the "Rotation of quicks" era!

Somehow, I always thought him (and Merv) were average but very over rated bowlers befitting our general malaise as a team for much of that time. I remember when he missed the Windies series in '95 feeling a bit sorry for him, yet thrilled a genuine young talent (MacGrath) was going to get a good crack at it. Ended up right about the last part at least.
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Paddles - 20 Sep 2019 1:54 PM
What is so good about Bond, is that he is straight up about the financial aspect. He never pulls the "time at home with family" nonsense that the jet setters seem to forget. One former NZ coach pulled that line, and withina  yeaar was applying for the Indian Head Coach role!!!! I mean c'mon.

Bond was NZ's bowling coach that led the turn around in NZC fortunes from 2012-2014/2015. Southee has deteriorated without him. Anyway, we lost Bond as bowling coach to IPL (we lose all our coaches to IPL) - and then Bond got a BBL gig too, but in between that, he does have a lot of spare time, so he has helped coach NZA players. This has meant he is still finding ways, unlike Flem, McCullum, Vettori, Hesson et al, to contribute to NZ cricket advancement. 

So until the BBL starts, and outside of IPL commitments, he is happy to work on short term contracts with NZC which has been used to do some NZA oversight. Bond doesn't need the pittance he would get from that, he does it for the love.

He actually seems like a splendid chap. When he was asked why he retired instead of bowling slower and not injuring himself, he simply said "I want to bowl fast, I am a fast bowler". He was still getting through at some masters cricket series at 145km/h years later.

Uncompromising simplicity but honest. So very honest. Probably why he such a good coach. He would tell them straight up. 

http://www.espncricinfo.com/newzealand/content/story/483689.html

This is Bond's take on it:

"What I'll never understand is why it had to be one or the other, ICL or playing for New Zealand, especially when I received a cast-iron assurance that I could do both, and my contract with New Zealand Cricket certainly allowed for it," Bond said in his book Looking Back. "In the end I became a victim of politics."As distasteful as that might be, I could learn to live with that, but what I can't live with is the suggestion that in the end I didn't want to play for my country."

Bond signed with the ICL in January 2008  [sic 2007] and was not considered for the national team for nearly two years due to his involvement with the unauthorised league. He made his international comeback in June 2009 when NZC allowed players to return to the national fold on the condition that they terminate their ICL contract.Bond, who played for Delhi Giants, was earlier in the year, snapped up by IPL franchise Kolkata Knight Riders, who bid US$750,000 for him at the auction. He still stands by his decision to play in the ICL though. "One thing I'll never regret is signing to play in the Indian Cricket League. Not at all. I've achieved security for my family and in the long term that is more important than a few Test and one-day caps.

Bond signed with the ICL in January 2008 and was not considered for the national team for nearly two years due to his involvement with the unauthorised league. He made his international comeback in June 2009 when NZC allowed players to return to the national fold on the condition that they terminate their ICL contract.Bond, who played for Delhi Giants, was earlier in the year, snapped up by IPL franchise Kolkata Knight Riders, who bid US$750,000 for him at the auction. He still stands by his decision to play in the ICL though. "One thing I'll never regret is signing to play in the Indian Cricket League. Not at all. I've achieved security for my family and in the long term that is more important than a few Test and one-day caps.

"Although I had been on a good contract by New Zealand standards, I hadn't got rich out of the game. I'd done all right, obviously, but I simply hadn't played long enough to accumulate the sort of income that would provide long-term security for my family once my career ended." [sic he is being diplomatic here, NZC wages have increased and still don't offer security for family men when they retire - his ICL deal would ahve been about 8 times the value of his national contract]

Bond recalled the discussion he had with NZC chief Justin Vaughan when he was told his contract with the board would be terminated due to his links with the ICL. "'Excuse me?' was about the only response I could come up with," Bond said. "So let's get this straight, it was okay for NZC to be in breach of this regulation as long as the wrong people didn't find out? Or had they just not done their homework properly? I admit I lost it a bit here and, for the first and only time, I swore at Justin."

Bond said he opted against the legal route out of consideration for himself, his board and his team-mates even though it could have worked in his favour. "There was talk that India would not honour their commitment to tour here in 2009, and that other New Zealand guys who had signed with the IPL would have their contracts torn up," he said. "I would have suffered, NZC would have suffered, and my mates would have suffered. In the end it was better just to suck it up and move on."

Basically, BCCI banned the ICL players globally. They threatened everyone and flexed muscles at the ICC. The bans were never official, not likely lawful, but they were actual. NZC was powerless to stop it. If we played Bond, India wouldn't tour, and would kick all NZ players out of the IPL? Okay... Same went for every nation. BCCI just wanted to kill the ICL at all cost. And they did. We lost then current intls Vincent, Tuffey, McMillan and Bond to the bans. But Bond was our best player. Astle and Cairns had basically retired from intls, so their bans weren't so sorely felt. Also lost Andre Adams and Hamish Marshall.

BCCI just crushed NZC, and asked us to be grateful. And that's about when world cricket realized there was an elephant in the room. They would even blacklist anyone who lent the ICL a stadium. A lot of the time cricket stadiums are owned by government! BCCI was like - blacklist you and take away cricket from your stadium.

It wasn't just NZ that got crushed, Pakistan got absolutely gutted. They lost their best batsman in Mohammad Yousef - who was  the best test in the world in 2006. They lost Abdul Razzaq, Imran Farhat - SA lost Nantie Haywood. Basically the poorer nations got shafted the most, but everyone got shafted. Jason GIllespie wasn't even allowed to coach juniors in Australia cos he played in the ICL. 

BCCI had a tantrum, and the world gave in to them. Since then - they have known they can have tantrums and get what they want. 




Thanks, Paddles.

I'm learning a lot posting on this forum!



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flyslip - 21 Sep 2019 9:41 PM
ThingyBob - 19 Sep 2019 5:12 PM

Somehow, I always thought him (and Merv) were average but very over rated bowlers befitting our general malaise as a team for much of that time. I remember when he missed the Windies series in '95 feeling a bit sorry for him, yet thrilled a genuine young talent (MacGrath) was going to get a good crack at it. Ended up right about the last part at least.

Looking at McDermott's 291 wickets in 70 Tests, means he took over an average of  over 4 wickets per Test.

This is axiomatically considered a pretty good return in cricket circles.
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Decentric - 23 Sep 2019 2:19 PM
flyslip - 21 Sep 2019 9:41 PM

Looking at McDermott's 291 wickets in 70 Tests, means he took over an average of  over 4 wickets per Test.

This is axiomatically considered a pretty good return in cricket circles.

No doubt and perhaps I'm wrong.

Similar to Brett Lee (310/76), but I never thought much of him as a test bowler either (great odi bowler though).
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While nowhere near taking the most wickets, someone who seems to slip under the radar when talking about great bowlers is Joel Garner. From an era where people didn't play enough test matches to compete with modern day bowlers in the wickets tally (began in the '70's), and even at the time wasn't as fast or considered as exciting as some of his own countrymen like Roberts and Holding (though I still think Ambrose was probably the most devastating of any of them). 

I can remember watching them when they toured in the late 70's, seemed the affable big fella just plodded along. Always seemed that way with Garner. Yet he ended up with 259 test wickets @ 21 ...and 149 wickets @ 19 in odi's. I don't think I ever saw him bowl a poor innings, though that's probably more weighted to watching his performances against Australia. An under rated bowler who I think is way better than some others who people put forward when discussing some of the best.

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Australia comming to NZ, not scheduled, at all you were last here 2016...

I'd like to know why the return cross Tasman series has not been scheduled too. Is this a CA or ICC decision?  I dont care if we rarely play Zimbo or Bangla or even the Afghans but I do want us to continue to play the Black Caps, Saffers and the Windies on a reciprocal basis as in the past.
Edited
5 Years Ago by baggygreenmania
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flyslip - 24 Sep 2019 9:27 AM
While nowhere near taking the most wickets, someone who seems to slip under the radar when talking about great bowlers is Joel Garner. From an era where people didn't play enough test matches to compete with modern day bowlers in the wickets tally (began in the '70's), and even at the time wasn't as fast or considered as exciting as some of his own countrymen like Roberts and Holding (though I still think Ambrose was probably the most devastating of any of them). 

I can remember watching them when they toured in the late 70's, seemed the affable big fella just plodded along. Always seemed that way with Garner. Yet he ended up with 259 test wickets @ 21 ...and 149 wickets @ 19 in odi's. I don't think I ever saw him bowl a poor innings, though that's probably more weighted to watching his performances against Australia. An under rated bowler who I think is way better than some others who people put forward when discussing some of the best.

I think Garner's opponents were in awe of his bowling.

Dennis Lillee said be bowled less bad balls than any other bowler.

They also thought he was a lovely bloke when he wasn't bowling to them!
Edited
5 Years Ago by Decentric
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Big bird was a quiet achiever. But Roberts was the attack leader to begin with, despite iirc worse numbers to Holding, Croft, Garner, Marshall and then that torch was passed onto Malcolm Marshall. And then finally onto Curtley. Its Marshall who typically gets the generational awe for those WI teams despite not being an original memeber. 



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Paddles - 18 Sep 2019 11:14 AM
Decentric - 15 Sep 2019 10:37 AM

Most wickets
PlayerSpanMatInnsBallsRunsWktsBBIBBMAveEconSR510
M Muralitharan (ICC/SL)1992-201013323044039181808009/5116/22022.722.4755.06722
SK Warne (AUS)1992-200714527340705179957088/7112/12825.412.6557.43710
A Kumble (INDIA)1990-2008132236408501835561910/7414/14929.652.6965.9358
JM Anderson (ENG)2003-201914927832359154915757/4211/7126.942.8756.2273
GD McGrath (AUS)1993-200712424329248121865638/2410/2721.642.4951.9293
CA Walsh (WI)1984-200113224230019126885197/3713/5524.442.5357.8223
SCJ Broad (ENG)2007-201913224326950133904678/1511/12128.672.9857.7172
DW Steyn (SA)2004-20199317118608100774397/5111/6022.953.2442.3265
N Kapil Dev (INDIA)1978-199413122727740128674349/8311/14629.642.7863.9232
HMRKB Herath (SL)1999-20189317025993121574339/12714/18428.072.8060.0349
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)1973-1990861502191896114319/5215/12322.292.6350.8369
SM Pollock (SA)1995-20081082022435397334217/8710/14723.112.3957.8161
Harbhajan Singh (INDIA)1998-201510319028580135374178/8415/21732.462.8468.5255
Wasim Akram (PAK)1985-20021041812262797794147/11911/11023.622.5954.6255
CEL Ambrose (WI)1988-2000981792210385014058/4511/8420.992.3054.5223
M Ntini (SA)1998-200910119020834112423907/3713/13228.823.2353.4184
IT Botham (ENG)1977-199210216821815108783838/3413/10628.402.9956.9274
MD Marshall (WI)1978-1991811511758478763767/2211/8920.942.6846.7224
Waqar Younis (PAK)1989-2003871541622487883737/7613/13523.563.2543.4225
NM Lyon (AUS)2011-20199117423360117273638/5013/15432.303.0164.3152
Imran Khan (PAK)1971-1992881421945882583628/5814/11622.812.5453.7236
DL Vettori (ICC/NZ)1997-201411318728814124413627/8712/14934.362.5979.5203
DK Lillee (AUS)1971-1984701321846784933557/8311/12323.922.7552.0237
WPUJC Vaas (SL)1994-200911119423438105013557/7114/19129.582.6866.0122
R Ashwin (INDIA)2011-2018651221837287003427/5913/14025.432.8453.7267
AA Donald (SA)1992-2002721291551973443308/7112/13922.252.8347.0203
RGD Willis (ENG)1971-1984901651735781903258/439/9225.202.8353.4160
MG Johnson (AUS)2007-2015731401600188913138/6112/12728.403.3351.1123
Z Khan (INDIA)2000-20149216518785102473117/8710/14932.943.2760.4111
B Lee (AUS)1999-2008761501653195543105/309/17130.813.4653.3100
M Morkel (SA)2006-2018861601649885503096/239/11027.663.1053.380
LR Gibbs (WI)1958-1976791482711589893098/3811/15729.091.9887.7182
FS Trueman (ENG)1952-1965671271517866253078/3112/11921.572.6149.4173
DL Underwood (ENG)1966-1982861512186276742978/5113/7125.832.1073.6176
JH Kallis (ICC/SA)1995-20131662722023295352926/549/9232.652.8269.250
CJ McDermott (AUS)1984-1996711241658683322918/9711/15728.633.0156.9142
I Sharma (INDIA)2007-2019921651749492902787/7410/10833.413.1862.991
BS Bedi (INDIA)1966-1979671182136476372667/9810/19428.712.1480.3141
Danish Kaneria (PAK)2000-2010611121769790822617/7712/9434.793.0767.8152
J Garner (WI)1977-1987581111316954332596/569/10820.972.4750.870
JN Gillespie (AUS)1996-2006711371423467702597/379/8026.132.8554.980
GP Swann (ENG)2008-2013601091534976422556/6510/13229.962.9860.1173
TA Boult (NZ)2011-2019631191398669472546/3010/8027.352.9855.081
JB Statham (ENG)1951-1965701291605662612527/3911/9724.842.3363.791
TG Southee (NZ)2008-2019671251487075062517/6410/10829.903.0259.281
MA Holding (WI)1975-1987601131268058982498/9214/14923.682.7950.9132
R Benaud (AUS)1952-1964631161910867042487/7211/10527.032.1077.0161
MJ Hoggard (ENG)2000-2008671221390975642487/6112/20530.503.2656.071
GD McKenzie (AUS)1961-1971601131768173282468/7110/9129.782.4871.8163
BS Chandrasekhar (INDIA)1964-197958971596371992428/7912/10429.742.7065.9162
AV Bedser (ENG)1946-195551921591858762367/4414/9924.892.2167.4155
J Srinath (INDIA)1991-2002671211510471962368/8613/13230.492.8564.0101
Abdul Qadir (PAK)1977-1990671111712677422369/5613/10132.802.7172.5155
GS Sobers (WI)1954-1974931592159979992356/738/8034.032.2291.960
AR Caddick (ENG)1993-2003621051355869992347/4610/21529.913.0957.9131
CS Martin (NZ)2000-2013711261402678782336/2611/18033.813.3760.1101
D Gough (ENG)1994-200358951182165032296/429/9228.393.3051.690
RR Lindwall (AUS)1946-1960611131365052512287/389/7023.032.3059.8120
SJ Harmison (ENG/ICC)2002-2009631151337571922267/1211/7631.823.2259.181
A Flintoff (ENG/ICC)1998-2009791371495174102265/588/15632.782.9766.130
PM Siddle (AUS)2008-2019671261390767772216/549/10430.662.9262.980
CL Cairns (NZ)1989-2004621041169864102187/2710/10029.403.2853.6131
CV Grimmett (AUS)1925-193637671451352312167/4014/19924.212.1667.1217
HH Streak (ZIM)1993-2005651021355960792166/739/7228.142.6962.770
MA Starc (AUS)2011-201952991076060772156/5011/9428.263.3850.0112
VD Philander (SA)2011-2019581091042046322146/2110/10221.642.6648.6132
MG Hughes (AUS)1985-199453971228560172128/8713/21728.382.9357.971
Shakib Al Hasan (BDESH)2007-201956951302065372107/3610/12431.123.0162.0182
SCG MacGill (AUS)1998-200844851123760382088/10812/10729.023.2254.0122
Saqlain Mushtaq (PAK)1995-200449861407062062088/16410/15529.832.6467.6133
Yasir Shah (PAK)2014-201935671129358322038/4114/18428.723.0955.6163
AME Roberts (WI)1974-198347901113551742027/5412/12125.612.7855.1112
JA Snow (ENG)1965-197649931202153872027/4010/14226.662.6859.581
JR Thomson (AUS)1972-198551901053556012006/469/10528.003.1852.680


Murali got 800 wickets,  averaging 6 per test over an 18 year test career.

How did he do it?
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Keyboard Warrior - 27 Sep 2019 11:13 PM
Paddles - 18 Sep 2019 11:14 AM

Murali got 800 wickets,  averaging 6 per test over an 18 year test career.

How did he do it?

Good bowling. He confused everyone.
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Paddles - 18 Sep 2019 11:14 AM
Decentric - 15 Sep 2019 10:37 AM

Most wickets
PlayerSpanMatInnsBallsRunsWktsBBIBBMAveEconSR510
M Muralitharan (ICC/SL)1992-201013323044039181808009/5116/22022.722.4755.06722
SK Warne (AUS)1992-200714527340705179957088/7112/12825.412.6557.43710
A Kumble (INDIA)1990-2008132236408501835561910/7414/14929.652.6965.9358
JM Anderson (ENG)2003-201914927832359154915757/4211/7126.942.8756.2273
GD McGrath (AUS)1993-200712424329248121865638/2410/2721.642.4951.9293
CA Walsh (WI)1984-200113224230019126885197/3713/5524.442.5357.8223
SCJ Broad (ENG)2007-201913224326950133904678/1511/12128.672.9857.7172
DW Steyn (SA)2004-20199317118608100774397/5111/6022.953.2442.3265
N Kapil Dev (INDIA)1978-199413122727740128674349/8311/14629.642.7863.9232
HMRKB Herath (SL)1999-20189317025993121574339/12714/18428.072.8060.0349
Sir RJ Hadlee (NZ)1973-1990861502191896114319/5215/12322.292.6350.8369
SM Pollock (SA)1995-20081082022435397334217/8710/14723.112.3957.8161
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Didn't realise Siddle had taken 221 wickets and has had a test career spanning 11 years?
Keyboard Warrior
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Tim Southee has played the same number of tests as Siddle, 67,  but has taken more wickets - 251 as opposed to Siddle's 221.
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Paddles - 27 Sep 2019 11:47 PM
Keyboard Warrior - 27 Sep 2019 11:13 PM

Good bowling. He confused everyone.

With an illegal  bent elbow action. He flicked the ball rather than bowled it.
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baggygreenmania - 22 Oct 2019 7:26 AM
Paddles - 27 Sep 2019 11:47 PM

With an illegal  bent elbow action. He flicked the ball rather than bowled it.

A big problem with Murali's record. His action has caused controversy. There will always be a school of thought he was a chucker.
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