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Mooloolabadog
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Marki - 16 Sep 2020 1:55 PM
Micko - 16 Sep 2020 12:32 PM

Video ref is fine IMO.
Current rules around obstruction interpretation are the real mess.

Basic logic suggests that if a player is not obstructed, it shouldnt matter whether a player has caught the ball off the inside, outside, on top of or under the fekking shoulder of any lead runner. 

The problem we currently have is the video ref is forced to apply the current stupid interpretation and as a result get it horrendously wrong. Prime example is the Lindsay Collins try. 

They should have a checklist that starts with....
A) Was a defender impeded from making a tackle due to the presence of the lead runner?

If yes, then carry on with the checklist...if no then dismiss the obstruction call.

Simples

The interpretation you talk about is not unique to the bunker.  Same applies if the ref makes the decision.
What I object to is the refs not making a decision, often in collaboration with the touchies, thereby slowing the game sometimes disadvantaging one of the teams.
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Mooloolabadog - 16 Sep 2020 2:24 PM
Marki - 16 Sep 2020 1:55 PM

The interpretation you talk about is not unique to the bunker.  Same applies if the ref makes the decision.
What I object to is the refs not making a decision, often in collaboration with the touchies, thereby slowing the game sometimes disadvantaging one of the teams.

The bunker is fine for trys when the ref is uncertain.

All other plays, just make have the ref call, even the bunker does get it 100% right.

Same for injuries if the player is far away from play, play on unless it looks really serious,.

Too many times when play stops due to gamesmanship...

If a defender is injured close to their line and holds up play the attacking side should get 6 again, otherwise the defence gets a rest for 2-3 mins and a chance to get organised.
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Wait and see guys players will be moving clubs for all sorts of reasons, often good talent will be looking for a new home. Our 21 squad is not final.
Edited
5 Years Ago by hounddog
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hounddog - 16 Sep 2020 2:37 PM
Mooloolabadog - 16 Sep 2020 2:24 PM

The bunker is fine for trys when the ref is uncertain.

All other plays, just make have the ref call, even the bunker does get it 100% right.

Same for injuries if the player is far away from play, play on unless it looks really serious,.

Too many times when play stops due to gamesmanship...

If a defender is injured close to their line and holds up play the attacking side should get 6 again, otherwise the defence gets a rest for 2-3 mins and a chance to get organised.

It's the overuse that's the problem
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I think the video ref is farcical. They have many camera angles, slow-mo, whatever else and still get it wrong. My greatest complaint is that the bunker says due to deceptive camera angles etc they cannot rule on a forward pass and yet they can easily determine if someone is offside even if by a minute distance (yeah right). The only way to eliminate this is by calling all flat passes forward (especially from dummy half aka Cam Smith style).
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hounddog - 16 Sep 2020 2:11 PM
ODF - 16 Sep 2020 10:13 AM

Belmore is practically rural.... 

I've heard Dman had a pet sheep.

It’s the only sheep in Australia with a matching mullet like it’s owner
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ODF - 16 Sep 2020 3:14 PM
I think the video ref is farcical. They have many camera angles, slow-mo, whatever else and still get it wrong. My greatest complaint is that the bunker says due to deceptive camera angles etc they cannot rule on a forward pass and yet they can easily determine if someone is offside even if by a minute distance (yeah right). The only way to eliminate this is by calling all flat passes forward (especially from dummy half aka Cam Smith style).

The test most commentators put on a forward pass is "backwards out of the hands".  This is BS. Only relevant if body orientation is square to the sidelines.  
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Official.... Dogs announced Waddell on a 3yr deal. 

That takes it to 7 backrowers contracted in 2021..... Jackson, RFM, Elliott, Stimpson, Waddell, Britt, Doorey. 

Maybe T Baz has plans to offload 1 or 2? 

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Mdog, most dropped balls are deemed as a knock on regardless of whether the ball propels forward or not, so the same should be applied to forward passes. I know that when a player is at pace forward momentum can be decieving but if the passer throws the ball flat then it should be called forward.

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Mooloolabadog - 16 Sep 2020 2:24 PM
Marki - 16 Sep 2020 1:55 PM

The interpretation you talk about is not unique to the bunker.  Same applies if the ref makes the decision.
What I object to is the refs not making a decision, often in collaboration with the touchies, thereby slowing the game sometimes disadvantaging one of the teams.

The disadvantage you talk about is if a team is slow to get their line reset.
But it applies to all teams more or less so there is no huge advantage or disadvantage.

If any team is focussed on how the games speeds are refereed and dont focus on how they can swing momentum or adjust the speed in games (within their own controls) then they are in serious trouble and no doubt we are talking about bottom 8 teams......

We are very poor in this department and although this year it seems we have had the rub of the green with regards to 6 again rulings and penalties, we are still dead last.
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Mooloolabadog - 16 Sep 2020 3:07 PM
hounddog - 16 Sep 2020 2:37 PM

It's the overuse that's the problem

I dont think its overused at all.
They sometimes view too many replays to arrive to the same decision as the first replay but other than that, i'd rather they get it right than get it wrong and i reckon they have (other than obstructions and a small handful of other errors) got it right on all other ocassions.

Far more than having the on field ref repeatedly get it wrong.

Have you watched old games from the 80's and 90's prior to video intervention?


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ODF - 16 Sep 2020 3:14 PM
I think the video ref is farcical. They have many camera angles, slow-mo, whatever else and still get it wrong. My greatest complaint is that the bunker says due to deceptive camera angles etc they cannot rule on a forward pass and yet they can easily determine if someone is offside even if by a minute distance (yeah right). The only way to eliminate this is by calling all flat passes forward (especially from dummy half aka Cam Smith style).

There is a difference in getting it wrong, and getting it wrong in the eyes of the fans......

The bunker has a very high success rate and i doubt anyone can argue it with any decent reasoning.
If you consider the rulings on obstructions being "correct" as per the rulebook, the success rate is even higher.

My issue is with the rulebook.



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Marki - 16 Sep 2020 4:36 PM
Mooloolabadog - 16 Sep 2020 2:24 PM

The disadvantage you talk about is if a team is slow to get their line reset.
But it applies to all teams more or less so there is no huge advantage or disadvantage.

If any team is focussed on how the games speeds are refereed and dont focus on how they can swing momentum or adjust the speed in games (within their own controls) then they are in serious trouble and no doubt we are talking about bottom 8 teams......

We are very poor in this department and although this year it seems we have had the rub of the green with regards to 6 again rulings and penalties, we are still dead last.

What about, and we've seen this, a player tackled almost on the line, the ref stops play goes to the bunker. No try PTB.  Clearly the advantage was a quick PTB and not a rest and reorganization for the defence 
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Mooloolabadog - 16 Sep 2020 4:00 PM
ODF - 16 Sep 2020 3:14 PM

The test most commentators put on a forward pass is "backwards out of the hands".  This is BS. Only relevant if body orientation is square to the sidelines.  

Agree and i until they introduce Hawkeye tracker with player momentum superimposed/extended based on their forward momentum and then position of ball when it is caught, we will never have an accurate reading.

The technology is available. The issue is that many good looking tries will be called back as foward - coz they bloody well are!
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Villi - 16 Sep 2020 4:01 PM
Official.... Dogs announced Waddell on a 3yr deal. 

That takes it to 7 backrowers contracted in 2021..... Jackson, RFM, Elliott, Stimpson, Waddell, Britt, Doorey. 

Maybe T Baz has plans to offload 1 or 2? 

Elloitt is a middle forward, Jacko will move to the middle. Britt is more of a middle forward.
Specalist 2nd rowers Doorey, RFM, Stimpson and Waddell.

We will see how things pan out, offload is code for pay to play elsewhere unless we can find someone to take players on full wages. We have guys off contract who are currently unsigned.... I suspect many of them are going.
We know Holland is gone, Foran is almost gone.
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Mooloolabadog - 16 Sep 2020 4:45 PM
Marki - 16 Sep 2020 4:36 PM

What about, and we've seen this, a player tackled almost on the line, the ref stops play goes to the bunker. No try PTB.  Clearly the advantage was a quick PTB and not a rest and reorganization for the defence 

I agree with you on that one and its simple to fix.
If the player isn't claiming the try, the ref shouldnt even check it.

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hounddog - 16 Sep 2020 4:50 PM
Villi - 16 Sep 2020 4:01 PM

Elloitt is a middle forward, Jacko will move to the middle. Britt is more of a middle forward.
Specalist 2nd rowers Doorey, RFM, Stimpson and Waddell.

We will see how things pan out, offload is code for pay to play elsewhere unless we can find someone to take players on full wages. We have guys off contract who are currently unsigned.... I suspect many of them are going.
We know Holland is gone, Foran is almost gone.

I dont think there is anything wrong with 7 backrowers. In fact if you consider first grade needing 4 (2 starting and 2 on bench) and reserve grade needing another 4, we are 1 short.
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hounddog - 16 Sep 2020 4:50 PM
Villi - 16 Sep 2020 4:01 PM

Elloitt is a middle forward, Jacko will move to the middle. Britt is more of a middle forward.
Specalist 2nd rowers Doorey, RFM, Stimpson and Waddell.

We will see how things pan out, offload is code for pay to play elsewhere unless we can find someone to take players on full wages. We have guys off contract who are currently unsigned.... I suspect many of them are going.
We know Holland is gone, Foran is almost gone.

Im not sure where all our cap money goes to but if we assume Hoppa and Jacko are on 800k a season, we may as well front load them next year to use up our cap and pay them 1.2M each so we only have to pay them 400k for season 2022 and have the extra money to splurge on someone decent.

(figures are just numbers ive plucked from the air - but you get my drift)
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Lets do some Salary Cap 101 numbers......

In 2020, the salary cap was around 9.5M, lets say 9.3M to make it easier.....for the top 30

On average, that is 310k per player in the top 30.
Assume the minimum wage is 100k. 
Lets say you have 10 of those 30 players on minimum wage. Thats 210k saving on each of those 10 players.
Thats basically saying you can take 3 of those 210k savings to pay a marquee first grade player 310k (average) + 3 x 210k (marquee) = 940k per season.
And you have a total of 10 of these min wage players so that means 3 x marquee players at 940k a season.
The rest, being 17 players, can be on your average 310k a season.

But you're probably thinking not all 17 remaining players will be on 310k as that is too much to pay when some of these guys are in reserve grade.
So you redistribute the 310k and say 7 of these guys are reserve grade level and only worth 200k each. That saves you 110k for each of the 7 (770k) which can you can then top up each of the 10 remaining first graders and pay them 310k+77k = 387k each.

Its not rocket science and in fact it seems impossible to fekk up the salary cap. Yet clubs seem to find a way.

When you look at our team, you wonder who the 3 guys are that are earning 940k. Foran was one of them, i assume Hoppa and Jacko or God forbid Tolman are the others.

Its either that, or we are paying too much for our reserve graders or we are paying way too much for fringe first graders.

It really makes you wonder.


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Marki - 16 Sep 2020 5:42 PM
Lets do some Salary Cap 101 numbers......

In 2020, the salary cap was around 9.5M, lets say 9.3M to make it easier.....for the top 30

On average, that is 310k per player in the top 30.
Assume the minimum wage is 100k. 
Lets say you have 10 of those 30 players on minimum wage. Thats 210k saving on each of those 10 players.
Thats basically saying you can take 3 of those 210k savings to pay a marquee first grade player 310k (average) + 3 x 210k (marquee) = 940k per season.
And you have a total of 10 of these min wage players so that means 3 x marquee players at 940k a season.
The rest, being 17 players, can be on your average 310k a season.

But you're probably thinking not all 17 remaining players will be on 310k as that is too much to pay when some of these guys are in reserve grade.
So you redistribute the 310k and say 7 of these guys are reserve grade level and only worth 200k each. That saves you 110k for each of the 7 (770k) which can you can then top up each of the 10 remaining first graders and pay them 310k+77k = 387k each.

Its not rocket science and in fact it seems impossible to fekk up the salary cap. Yet clubs seem to find a way.

When you look at our team, you wonder who the 3 guys are that are earning 940k. Foran was one of them, i assume Hoppa and Jacko or God forbid Tolman are the others.

Its either that, or we are paying too much for our reserve graders or we are paying way too much for fringe first graders.

It really makes you wonder.


University of Notre Dib 2018 alumni...... you tell them Marki
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Marki - 16 Sep 2020 5:42 PM
Lets do some Salary Cap 101 numbers......

In 2020, the salary cap was around 9.5M, lets say 9.3M to make it easier.....for the top 30

On average, that is 310k per player in the top 30.
Assume the minimum wage is 100k. 
Lets say you have 10 of those 30 players on minimum wage. Thats 210k saving on each of those 10 players.
Thats basically saying you can take 3 of those 210k savings to pay a marquee first grade player 310k (average) + 3 x 210k (marquee) = 940k per season.
And you have a total of 10 of these min wage players so that means 3 x marquee players at 940k a season.
The rest, being 17 players, can be on your average 310k a season.

But you're probably thinking not all 17 remaining players will be on 310k as that is too much to pay when some of these guys are in reserve grade.
So you redistribute the 310k and say 7 of these guys are reserve grade level and only worth 200k each. That saves you 110k for each of the 7 (770k) which can you can then top up each of the 10 remaining first graders and pay them 310k+77k = 387k each.

Its not rocket science and in fact it seems impossible to fekk up the salary cap. Yet clubs seem to find a way.

When you look at our team, you wonder who the 3 guys are that are earning 940k. Foran was one of them, i assume Hoppa and Jacko or God forbid Tolman are the others.

Its either that, or we are paying too much for our reserve graders or we are paying way too much for fringe first graders.

It really makes you wonder.


Last few years we had back loading on some contracts and were paying players like James Graham, Mbye and perhaps a few others to play elsewhere.

As well I think Foran might have been on something like $1.2 million per season.

It is possible for bad management to make a mess of any budget.

With Foran going and a clean slate in other areas we have money to spend.

It is a largely a myth that players take unders at a club, SC money is topped up with TPAs, I think we will find most players get offers from 3-4 clubs for around the same money and most players take the highest offer.

Paying overs probably happens with back loading a club is desperate for success and prepared to wear future pain.
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My main beef with the Des/Dibb era was a decline in scouting and player development and poor management of the juniors.

I'm of the opinion that anything goes with the SC as long as the next wave of talent is coming through.

But there was also the issue of our playing style and a lack of suitable talent in key position...

So they were fundamentally all in on bad SC bet with little prospect of success and no plan B.

Only an exceptional season from Barba put us in the frame.

If we had the talent or we had a pipleline of good young players it was a reasonable bet..

I don't blame Des, he was placed under pressure with high expectations for quick results and given little oversight.
I also think that others should have been managing the pipeline of talent. 

I don't dislike Dibb as a person, he is copping a lot of blame for being captain of a weak team.
I think he is merely the organ grinder, and the monkeys are getting up to mischief.

Fundamentally you can have you cake and eat it too as the Storm have done. The key to their success is the pipeline of talent, ditto for the Panthers.

The Roosters are a bit more complex it seems the SC doesn't apply to them.


Edited
5 Years Ago by hounddog
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hounddog - 16 Sep 2020 7:00 PM
My main beef with the Des/Dibb era was a decline in scouting and player development and poor management of the juniors.

I'm of the opinion that anything goes with the SC as long as the next wave of talent is coming through.

But there was also the issue of our playing style and a lack of suitable talent in key position...

So they were fundamentally all in on bad SC bet with little prospect of success and no plan B.

Only an exceptional season from Barba put us in the frame.

If we had the talent or we had a pipleline of good young players it was a reasonable bet..

I don't blame Des, he was placed under pressure with high expectations for quick results and given little oversight.
I also think that others should have been managing the pipeline of talent. 

I don't dislike Dibb as a person, he is copping a lot of blame for being captain of a weak team.
I think he is merely the organ grinder, and the monkeys are getting up to mischief.

Fundamentally you can have you cake and eat it too as the Storm have done. The key to their success is the pipeline of talent, ditto for the Panthers.

The Roosters are a bit more complex it seems the SC doesn't apply to them.


I blame Fwit Des

I blame Fwit Des for just about everything that’s wrong with the Dogs, NRL, Dman, Covid-19, Aston Villa
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Villi - 16 Sep 2020 7:06 PM
hounddog - 16 Sep 2020 7:00 PM

I blame Fwit Des

I blame Fwit Des for just about everything that’s wrong with the Dogs, NRL, Dman, Covid-19, Aston Villa

Excellent point.
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Dman’s boy Garner from the Tigers apparently is wanted by Fwit Des.... he’s contracted to the Tigers till 2022. 

See’s him as the ideal replacement for Joel Thompson. 

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Villi - 16 Sep 2020 7:55 PM
Dman’s boy Garner from the Tigers apparently is wanted by Fwit Des.... he’s contracted to the Tigers till 2022. 

See’s him as the ideal replacement for Joel Thompson. 

Fairly good player.

We are still looking mainly for a half or hooker....


Edited
5 Years Ago by hounddog
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hounddog - 16 Sep 2020 7:00 PM
My main beef with the Des/Dibb era was a decline in scouting and player development and poor management of the juniors.

I'm of the opinion that anything goes with the SC as long as the next wave of talent is coming through.

But there was also the issue of our playing style and a lack of suitable talent in key position...

So they were fundamentally all in on bad SC bet with little prospect of success and no plan B.

Only an exceptional season from Barba put us in the frame.

If we had the talent or we had a pipleline of good young players it was a reasonable bet..

I don't blame Des, he was placed under pressure with high expectations for quick results and given little oversight.
I also think that others should have been managing the pipeline of talent. 

I don't dislike Dibb as a person, he is copping a lot of blame for being captain of a weak team.
I think he is merely the organ grinder, and the monkeys are getting up to mischief.

Fundamentally you can have you cake and eat it too as the Storm have done. The key to their success is the pipeline of talent, ditto for the Panthers.

The Roosters are a bit more complex it seems the SC doesn't apply to them.


Storm are the model team setup based on my example except they had 3 players on 1M or slightly more and were happy to pay their forwards peanuts and eventually lost them.

Their formula was the complete opposite of ours and their success shows how badly we havent kept with the times.
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Marki - 16 Sep 2020 10:17 PM
hounddog - 16 Sep 2020 7:00 PM

Storm are the model team setup based on my example except they had 3 players on 1M or slightly more and were happy to pay their forwards peanuts and eventually lost them.

Their formula was the complete opposite of ours and their success shows how badly we havent kept with the times.

Roosters are not too dissimilar with most of their cap spent on spine players or backs. They are happy to pay their forwards low $$ and not too fussed to lose them and give someone else a go.

Two of the most successful clubs in the last 15 or so years cant be fluking it. 

I hope we have taken notice and learn from them.


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Marki - 16 Sep 2020 10:22 PM
Marki - 16 Sep 2020 10:17 PM

Roosters are not too dissimilar with most of their cap spent on spine players or backs. They are happy to pay their forwards low $$ and not too fussed to lose them and give someone else a go.

Two of the most successful clubs in the last 15 or so years cant be fluking it. 

I hope we have taken notice and learn from them.


You need a sprinkling of players, 4 or 5, with the football smarts and talent to bring the points.  Pay them 35% of the cap. The rest of the team only need to be competent players who can perform a clearly defined role and stick to a game plan.
  The contracts of the players with the smarts need to have staggered end dates to make replacement easier and prevent players and managers having too much power over the club.
Beneath this there must always be new young players being developed, encouraged and given opportunity
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Mooloolabadog - 16 Sep 2020 11:08 PM
Marki - 16 Sep 2020 10:22 PM

You need a sprinkling of players, 4 or 5, with the football smarts and talent to bring the points.  Pay them 35% of the cap. The rest of the team only need to be competent players who can perform a clearly defined role and stick to a game plan.
  The contracts of the players with the smarts need to have staggered end dates to make replacement easier and prevent players and managers having too much power over the club.
Beneath this there must always be new young players being developed, encouraged and given opportunity

Absolutely spot on.

Hope the people that be at the club read your post, re-read it 3 more times, print it, paste it on the walls of their office and read it every single day. 
GO


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