Clockwork Orange has proffered a reasonable proposition, and happens to be correct.

Why respond with a facetious comment, AJF?

FTBL Forum Mods how about lifting your collective  game?

 I don't want AJF banned as he raises some  debate  worthy points, but he  consistently transgresses FTBL Forum rules, which I've read on the Mod panel.

The FTBL Forum rules unequivocally state play the ball not  the man, or attack the idea, not the person. No other FB panel where I'm involved in Moderation tolerates posts attacking each other personally. Why should it be the case on FTBL Forum?  

let me guess, your dog ate the UEFA report? what a lame excuses for no evidence

Hahahahahahahahahahaha,. hope you are reporting EVERY facetious comment in this forum or are you still just obsessed with me Brew?

Triangles and diamonds are  integral . They were taught in the C Licence courses of 2008-2014.

If those concepts  weren't imparted, there would have been an assumption that all coaches were  familiar  with the concept - when they weren't. I haven't  completed the Senior Licence, the next one  lower down than the C Licence, so I don't know that the diamonds and triangles, body shape, checking,  in build ups, etc, were imparted in that course.

Guys in my C Licence course who had completed the Senior Licence said it was a simplified version of the C Licence content.  

Various FFA Senior Licence accredited coaches borrowed my KNVB Youth certificate course content book, because they deemed it be revolutionary in 2008 and 2009.

Other than personal attacks, you don't appear to know how to set up a team to play Posssession Football, playing from the  back to the front of the pitch, AJF.

I'll ask you to set out how one coaches a team to build up  from the back to the front of the pitch.

*What would your instructions be to the  keeper when s/he has the ball in his/her hands?

*Who says what to whom in starting the build up?

* If the build up stalls, what instructions and  coaching points would  you instil  in your players regarding options to keep playing or/and moving  forwards ? Passing backwards being a last resort. 

   

 personally I am not a big baby and dont care, but according to Decentric this is facetious and needs to be reported to the mods, sorry CO, KNVB made me do it,

Another forum  member  who is a  NPL President posted this article in the Performance section.

It must be there somewhere.

Guardiola loved Tiki Taka when he was at Barcelona, because the team defended by having  possession dominance too, as well as winning most games.

However, when Guardiola went  to Bayern Munich as a coach, he had to devise a game plan as to how to beat Barca in the UEFA Champ League.

Domestically in  the Bundesliga, Bayern tended to dominate possession, but with potent wingers Robben and Ribery, a real strength for Bayern, he used the much more   archetypal German  tactic of  accelerated attacks in the ACL against the likes of Barca.

In the Spanish league, Real and Atletico Madrid had used it with a modicum of success against Barca.

Guardiola rationalised that Bayern could not  beat Barca under Tito Vilanova  at their own Tiki Taka game.

Henceforth, he  induced  Barca to play a high defensive  line, then through accelerated attacks used Robben and Ribery's fast ball carrying qualities against Barca running  towards their own goal, from a long  distance from their   goal.

In his tenure as a coach in Germany, Guardiola has fused the Spanish Possession game with the German  counterattacking game.

The title is misleading. Guardiaola likes  having possession, but likes to advance forwards too. Ditto Arsne Wenger. AW terms possessions  dominance in the  back half as sterile   domination.

The current coaching manual was released in 2013, yet for some reason you used an older version in 2014 (which I am also sure you cant produce any content from proving your point - damn that dog). hmm thats interesting, maybe it's a Tasmanian thing.

Irrespective, your comments about apparently learning very basic concepts like triangles & body shape during an "ADVANCED" coaching course have proven Farina's point. How is it possible for someone without basic knowledge to be are able to teach "elite" youth (which is what a C license allows you to do)? Or more to the point, what could you possibly teach them that was elite in any way when you are learning basics on the job?

Jeebus, playing out from the back, is that really the best coaching question you can ask, I mean how basic. You tell me what is the football problem you are addressing with that (use FFA advanced Coaching criteria please)?

Heres a question for you, whats the fifth main moment?

Why are they better players , spent all their spare time without ball as kids.
Possession starts as individual then progresses into a team, so for u7 the first thing to coach is shielding the ball (individual posession)

That is not the discussion. The discussion is about whether possession is a legit strategy and what people are saying is that because the best teams have the most possession it must be because possession is a great strategy. Many people say it’s nonsense and that possession stats are a result of having better players and nothing to do with strategy. 

How ridiculous.  The 'discussion' between AJF and Clockwork is barely more than banter.  What a soft pillow you'd have to be to go whinging to the mods about their back and forth.

A Serious question.  I can understand how a novice coach might not be aware of triangles and diamonds. But how in the world could any half decent player not be aware of triangles and diamonds? 

I am actually interested in how you would (or more importantly how the curriculum tells you) to instruct players to play out from the back.  I have criticised it for being to theoretical and meaningless, so what exactly does the text book say about such a simple concept.  especially if the build up stalls. 

Interesting question Bender, how does a player that apparently represented his state and played at NPL seniors level not learn about triangles or body position during their elite playing career?

posession isnt just passing , it starts with the individual

oh k........

In answer to the original questioned posed by the Curriculum supporters, i will give an excerpt from the ever famous Bender Parma Curriculum that is currently sweeping through the Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Manchester United, PSV Eindhoven, and other similar type clubs like he the under 8 West Division South 1 purple group of teams.

Playing out from the Back.
Playing out from the Back should be encouraged where possible.  The fulbacks should always drop to make an appropriate angle and give support to his goalkeeper.  This will have the effect of either drawing in the opposing attackers and making space upfield, or if they do not commit, it will give the fulbacks ample time and space to overlap or create an quick attacking move towards the goal. That being said, defender and goal keeper needs to remember they are in the defensive third where no risks are to be taken as one mistake will often lead to a goal scoring opposition.  All defenders should err on the side of caution and if in doubt, look for the long ball, usually towards the left and right wingers if nothing else is on. 


How does  this compare with the curriculum.  I assume it is reasonably similar?  

MV academy dont do playing out from the back, its furthest safest pass

See that’s a beautiful simple tactic. Don’t need an a licence for that....

keep it simple.

i was at brentford training ground at hounslow a few years ago, the head of academy attitude was that he was to produce players for the championship and not the champions league, i would put melbourne Victory in the same mindset (producing players for the A league )
Top players can receive the ball and play under pressure, even if you dont train them in clubland it will be expected at national level and overseas so might as well try when they are younger

MV NYL teams have been the worst preformed over the past couple of seasons, will probably change for the better now that Drew Sherman is head of development.

I agree but most of this cannot be taught...

That is temperament and the ability to perform under pressure. Also a function of playing and training with other elite players.

It is not the result of any kind of purposeful training methodology..

On a side note Man United lost 3-1 yesterday with 76 percent possession. Before everyone cries out im cherry picking the stats - the point is when you get 'regular' occurances like this  - it really calls into doubt the possession for possession sake reasoning. In my mind it further re-inforces that those with better ball players have more of the ball - but it won't win you games...which is more about 'impact' of individuals rather than possession. 

Also wouldn’t help that their best player just recovered from covid 19

At Youth Level Possession Football is the only way to go.

The definition of possession football is as follows
Passes made in all directions, 360 degrees
Ball switched from side to side multiple times in each possession. Rhythm of possession.
Probing passes into feet & back again. Angled passes
Back line, defence and midfield play pivotal role in possession
Balls played wide to create space on opposite side, followed by switch
Keeper throws ball to build up from back. Few punts
Free kicks played to feet to keep possession
Throw-ins played to possess the ball often to backs or midfielders

As opposed to direct football
Players almost always pass forward
Many passes are long and vertical
Many passes played into areas – kick vs pass
Many passes are played into space behind opponents’ back line – foot races
Lots of fights for ‘second balls’
All goal kicks are punted long
All throw-ins are thrown long ‘down the line’
All free kicks in defensive and middle third are kicked long with everyone moving up for the kick

Many junior coaches in the local Football environment recruit fast big players and defenders who are strong and just bash the ball forward for the attackers to chase. They use “early physical developers” to win games and do a dis-service not only to the physically weaker players but also to the bigger boys as this style of play produces technically deficient players who will be learning nothing about how to play the game at a higher level.
Not only is it boring for the players, enforces results over fun and enjoyment and therefore arguably produces a larger dropout rate of youngsters, it is in fact also ineffective once the players mature and their physical strengths converge as adults.
Your child is in danger of becoming a boring and uninventive player and is most unlikely either truly to discover the joy of playing the ball, or to even excel in the game against other players who have spent a decade or more possessing the ball.

Sample of program I am putting together for a local Club's Miniroos program:

We play short passes, which requires players to support each other in attack and defence, and is harder to defend and anticipate
We play only longer balls in response to a movement by a team-mate not in the hope of one - to move and ask for the ball after which the pass is delivered;
Our Goal Keepers are discouraged from kicking the ball long unless there is no other option
Our Goalkeeper will roll the ball to a team-mate so the team can begin to play immediately from the back
If we have no option to find a team-mate we will always keep the ball. At no time should they be told to kick it away regardless of the position they play or where they are on the field
We encourage players to express themselves through their football and recognise that everyone is not the same and shouldn’t play so. Some play fast, others slow, some play simple, others read situations and find more complex solutions, and some have enough skill to individually dominate a game, while others can only dream of doing so, but all should be allowed to find their own game not forced to conform to a uniform way of playing;
We vary the speed of play during a game, which requires a team to hold the ball.
In this way good coaches can coach the key moments when in possession, the opponent in possession or the changeover, build awareness in the players to aid understanding and decision making, and allow the players to develop a feel for the game that comes only from thousands of hours playing it.

I like this article as far as articulating possession football;

1 Truth, 1 Fallacy, and 1 Solution for Coaching Possession Soccer

 By Gary Kleiban
A Truth
It can be successfully done across all levels of play.
The main reason it’s rarely seen, is that most coaches have not acquired the expertise to do it.
First and foremost, a coach must develop a possession-based philosophy (a vision … a taste … a feel for that type of football).
Then he must whole-heartedly commit to the process of having his teams reach it.
If those two requirements aren’t met, then chances of it happening are close to zero.
If however, we’ve got a green light on those, then what comes next is converging on a small and proper set of enabling activities to train players with.

A Fallacy
Now, a fallacy that has been circulated for as long as I can remember:
“We can’t play a winning possession-based game, unless we have the technical players first.”
And it’s generally crap.
How ‘technical’ do they have to be?
Yeah … nobody seems to address that question. Instead, the blanket statement is thrown, everyone nods because there’s a logic to it; it’s taken as truth, and we’re all excused.
I’ll give you just one answer today:
The amount of space and time a player has, dictates how technical he must be.
The more space and time you’ve got, the lower the requirement on technique.
Right off the bat, this means that the lower the level your team is competing at, the lower the technical requirement on your players. Because intrinsic to the lower levels, is more space and time.
Even more important:
Time and space can be manipulated by player decisions.
And how is that achieved?
Tactically!
Solution
If you can train your players to create more space and time for themselves and teammates, you’ve just lowered the technical requirements.
Coaching baby, coaching.

The factor that makes or breaks implementing a successful possession style is chiefly tactical.
And I say all this not in theory, but from experience.
We’ve done it across levels of play.
So executing the possession-based game requires proper training. Proper tactical training! It’s about teaching decision-making on the field and choreography.
The point here being you do not need master class technical players to successfully implement winning possession-based soccer.
I’ll reiterate a comment (partially modified) I made last week:
“Doesn’t matter what level the team is. If it’s an ‘average Joe American’ team … well, you’re usually competing against other ‘average Joe American’ teams. So in time, you should be able to execute.”

Sounds good. I think possession as rule should be encouraged with youth football. 

I agree with all that Arthur says. I would just say that it needs to be done as Arthur says.

The problem, in Australia, is that many teams appear to have misinterpreted this philosophy, which you've described very well and in some detail. Many teams misinterpret and condense it down to the following misapprehension

• passing sideways in the middle and defensive third for almost the whole game = successful possession-based style.

If this is happening from day one of playing football, then I despair. Clearly, those angled, forward passes need to happen or else such a style won't yield results. I'm not sure how this can be coached. Maybe a rule, in training, that no more than x consecutive sideways and back passes are allowed or else your team forfeit possession?

There's also a problem if footballers are encouraged to focus on possession at the cost of 1 vs 1. If the entire focus is on possession as a team, the individual footballer doesn't learn to take on opponents individually. Obviously, the best wingers and strikers have these skills. And 1 vs 1 skills have been sorely lacking among senior Australian footballers.

Edited. As I had forgotten to include the second mini paragraph.

I think your confused as to what I’ve written and what I’ve posted from the quoted source, never the less lets look at it.
If possession football was negated purely based on two teams playing similar styles/tactical then every time Real and Barca played based on your premise they should be drawing every game.
Very few Professional Clubs play a game that isn’t possession based, that doesn’t mean there doesn’t exist tactical variations, purpose and understanding based on knowledge, continuity and understanding.
And yes I’ve seen teams keep possession at various levels and ages without an understanding why they are keeping possession. Lack of knowledge, understanding and yes even a belief.
As far as what Gary Kleiban is saying in regards to not needing to be technically proficient to play a possession style, he’s talking about kids playing at lower levels. For example kids playing U13D level in Melbourne’s Community system can play a possession game as the differences in time and space allow for it.
The physical early developer used to win games, simply by knocking the ball over the top for them to chase it down, is doing a dis-service to them. They, like the smaller player, also need to be developed in different aspects of the game. Once the physical convergence at adulthood occurs and all they’ve learnt and relied on is to knock a ball forward, chase a ball down and have no first touch. Well I don’t know how you see it, but I see it as a coaching failure.
At youth level, with a squad of 18 players I’d be managing the players in a way that they all get significant game time. Match day is a tool to determine deficiencies and work at training on improvement. As opposed to those coaches that train for possession football during the week but game day resembles fight ball, or “shit on the grass”.
Overcoaching is an interesting topic, there are different types of overcoaching and ways that it happens, a long topic for another day.
Finally from my perspective winning at youth level is a consequence of playing good football, imaginative football, and implementing our football philosophy on game day.

You sound like a well rounded coach Arthur. You can coach my kid anytime...

Wre
Guardiola is quoted stressing over and over again how much he dislikes tiki-taka. Ball possession needs to be done with an ultimate objective in mind. He says: “It’s not possession or one-touch passing that matters, but the intention behind it. The percentage of possession a team has or the number of passes that a group or an individual makes is irrelevant in itself. What’s crucial is the reason they are doing these things, what they are aiming to achieve and what the team plans to do when they have the ball. That’s what matters!“.

so from this I imagine you won’t hear Pep say anything like ‘we play a possession games.  

There's a lot of nuances to playing a possession style game. For instance a 1v1 must still has purpose, dependent on the situation.
With the youth player when is the right time and place to use 1v1? 
Why doesn't 1v1 involve a bounce, then a 1-2 pass?
What body shape should you be in?
Where should your first touch go to get the advantage on your opponent?
In one v one situation is the player looking at the ball or has his head up?
What are his team mates reaction when the one v one situation occurs?
When you win the one v one what next?
If you lose the 1v1 what next?

Then there's the big picture. Why arent we producing the one v one player in quantity? Its probably societal, no street football, lack of good motorskills. Then cultural, parents without football knowledge unable to teach their kids what is good football and what is not.

Thanks for the endorsement. I don't coach anymore, don't have the time.

We are tactically behind in many regards, we lack strong football culture where tactical aspects are learnt from an early age.

Arthur - isn't that making things too complex...

Much of that you cannot teach. You can watch videos and point out a few things to players but at the end of the day much of that 1 v 1 is basic intelligence of the player. They either have it or they don't.

Its a bit like school teachers, public vs private debate and/or some of the experts working for the education ministers talking about different ways to teach and how complex everything is. 

At the end of the day the two biggest determinants whether a child will perform well at high school is 1. did the child grow up in a house with books and 2. what is the education level of the parents. No matter how important the teachers and schools think they are - they probably aren't...

I have a feeling the over intellectualisation of football strategy is the same. The biggest job is to help Forster an environment that producers free thinking smart players who can play a variety of styles with high technical aplomb. The rest although interesting is probably not as important as some want to believe.