Which clubs should be admitted into national Second division?


Which clubs should be admitted into national Second division?

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NicCarBel
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bettega - 5 Mar 2020 11:24 PM
NicCarBel - 5 Mar 2020 9:59 PM

I understand what you are saying, but at the same time, it is completely contradictory to the open full pyramid concept.
If we follow your train of thought to its logical conclusion, it means there can never be an open pyramid in Australian football.

Eh, yes and no. 
I get that point too, just depends on how people see Canberra being in the league system. 
Personally, best option is possibly a Canberra United model, where the current clubs play in an ACT wide competition act as feeder clubs into a single Canberra entity on the national level. 
I believe that's the only way to get Canberra into the system in the immediate future.
If it was to just wait for a bit longer, then yes, a full pyramid system that incorporates all current (and future) clubs is ideal, not just in Canberra, but everywhere
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I think Canberra and Auckland should get teams in a Prospective 2nd division.  Even Canterbury NZ would be a good addition over time.  The young Kiwi "generation" is warming to football like never before.  Let's not stifle growth wherever it takes root.

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kiwi keith - 6 Mar 2020 5:10 PM
I think Canberra and Auckland should get teams in a Prospective 2nd division.  Even Canterbury NZ would be a good addition over time.  The young Kiwi "generation" is warming to football like never before.  Let's not stifle growth wherever it takes root.

we dont need kiwi youth suckling on the teet of Australian football, let the kiwi FA nurture their own  








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Arthur - 6 Mar 2020 3:00 PM
The market and criteria will determine the size and participants in the NSD.
Within 24 hours of the announcement of EOI investors from Malaysia and India are already seeking partners.
Will be interesting 

No just no, A league clubs should be Australian based only, people cant even seem to follow or be interested in the idea of the champions league and thats allowing some of Asias biggest clubs to come to Australia. I would immediately stop watching AL if a club outside of Australia was added into the competition with the exception of NZ. 
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When the FFA really begins to look into this competition I think it should be a fair mix of current NPL teams and new franchises. And even the new franchises should use a current NPL club or multiple clubs as a foundation to build on.

Examples could be a second Brisbane team (Whether in HAL or NSD), developed as a Brisbane United, using the likes of Brisbane City and Strikers merged together. Or a northern beaches based Sydney club with Manly United used as its foundation. 

Clubs like South Melbourne which really should be included if the NSD does happen would just be moved in and require some minimal adjustment.
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Gyfox - 6 Mar 2020 4:39 PM
Just some thoughts on a process to make the allocation of spots in the 2nd division.


nominal split for clubs should follow player registration numbers so each player has a fair opportunity to progress to the higher levels of the development pathway within the state they live in if not closer.

With 527,630 registered players (2018 season) the quota for a club in a 14 team completion would be 37,688 registered players.

FNSW - 238,459 = 6.33 quotas  0.33 available for redistribution.  To be considered later in the process.
FQld - 70,273 = 1.86 quotas  With 60% of registered players in rural Qld they need at least 2 clubs in total to get a fair split.  add 0.14 = 2.00 quotas
FVic - 68,376 = 1.81 quotas  With the high standard on the NPL in Vic they need minimum of 2 clubs.  add 0.19 = 2.00 quotas
NNSWF - 52579 = 1.40 quotas  If no clubs in this region apply for the 2nd division 1.4 quotas would be available for distribution.  If 1 club then 0.4 spare.
FWest - 44,068 = 1.17 quotas  If no clubs in this region apply for the 2nd division 1.17 quotas would be available for distribution.  If 1 club then 0.17 spare.
FSA - 24,287 = 0.64 quotas  For optimum development pathway they need at least 1 2nd division club.  add 0.36 = 1.00 quotas.
Capital Football - 16,631 = 0.44 quotas  If Canberra is already in the A-League then this would be available for redistribution.  If not then add 0.56 = 1.00 quotas
FTas - 11,668 = 0.31 quotas  For optimum development pathway they need 1 2nd division club.  add 0.69 - 1.00 quotas
FNT - 4,289 = 0.11 quotas  If no club in this region applies for the 2nd division then this would be available for redistribution.

Assuming no clubs from NNSWF, Capital Football and FNT the split would be:-

FNSW - 6.00 quotas  Redistribute 1.00 quota to FVic for better allocation.  subtract 1.00 = 5.00 quotas
FQld - 2.00 quotas  Qld would be better represented by 2 clubs in the regions and 1 in Brisbane.  add 1.00 = 3.00 quotas
FVic - 2.00 quotas  The standard of football in Victoria and their aim to increase participation quickly warrants an additional club. add 1.00 = 3.00 quotas
FWest - 1.00 quotas
FSA - 1.00 quotas
FTas - 1.00 quotas
Spare - 1.00 quotas  Redistribute to FQld. subtract 1.00 = 0.00 quotas.

An additional quota from FNSW could be redistributed if Wollongong was already in the A-League.




Can't speak for the other states but with the Roar in the A-League and the Strikers, Western Pride and Gold Coast United (or Sunshine Coast Fire) in the Second Div it would provide so many more 
opportunities to players and help grow the game in QLD.
If the FFA ever promoted the Strikers or Pride to the A-L then B.City or Peninsula Power would seem like ready-made 2nd Div replacements.

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NRL are about to embark on splitting their league  and will be adding two more teams as well to have two conferences. Unprecedented territory fircthat code.
A League are Still sitting on his hands with no movement for a 2nd division or a Reserve League at the very least.
Players need to have opportunities for one and the game continues to sit still hence, therefore, it consistantly runs fourth out of the four major football codes. 
Edited
4 Years Ago by soccerfoo
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soccerfoo - 28 Apr 2021 9:44 AM
NRL are about to embark on splitting their league  and will be adding two more teams as well to have two conferences. Unprecedented territory fircthat code.
A League are Still sitting on his hands with no movement for a 2nd division or a Reserve League at the very least.
Players need to have opportunities for one and the game continues to sit still hence, therefore, it consistantly runs fourth out of the four major football codes. 

Wont happen, Brisbane are by far the richest NRL team and would miss out massively being excluded from the sydney teams.
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soccerfoo - 28 Apr 2021 9:44 AM
NRL are about to embark on splitting their league  and will be adding two more teams as well to have two conferences. Unprecedented territory fircthat code.
A League are Still sitting on his hands with no movement for a 2nd division or a Reserve League at the very least.
Players need to have opportunities for one and the game continues to sit still hence, therefore, it consistantly runs fourth out of the four major football codes. 

Let them have their conferences.
It's a crap idea.

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Another interview on Shim Spider & so much More pod between Simon and Nick Galatas. This time, NIck mentioned that the FA and AAFC are both working towards a 2023 start for the Second Division (does that mean 22-23 given a Summer League?). Furthermore, there could well be a 'pilot' second division (subject to changes for the following season) for 2022 (I wonder if that means 21-22 given a Summer League?). Also, pro/rel was mentioned a couple of times with 3-4 year timelines after the initial implementation of the new competition. Another thing, they also want to introduce a new economy for the competitions. That sounds like Transfer Fees.
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I have two questions: How long will it be before there's promotion to the A-League from the NSD, and will the NSD be a closed shop? 
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soccerfoo - 10 May 2021 9:27 PM
Another interview on Shim Spider & so much More pod between Simon and Nick Galatas. This time, NIck mentioned that the FA and AAFC are both working towards a 2023 start for the Second Division (does that mean 22-23 given a Summer League?). Furthermore, there could well be a 'pilot' second division (subject to changes for the following season) for 2022 (I wonder if that means 21-22 given a Summer League?). Also, pro/rel was mentioned a couple of times with 3-4 year timelines after the initial implementation of the new competition. Another thing, they also want to introduce a new economy for the competitions. That sounds like Transfer Fees.

I think this points to a winter league. They have both mentioned 2022 if a summer league 2023 if a winter league before.
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Atlas - 11 May 2021 3:03 PM
I have two questions: How long will it be before there's promotion to the A-League from the NSD, and will the NSD be a closed shop? 

All the various options I've seen bounced around for the last few years (and it is years), generally have the NSD being closed for up to 5 years, then promotion from the tier below, and then some 5 years after that, possible P&R with the A-League (most probably in a very restricted form).

EVerything gets qualified with one tier or the other needing to be financially stable before any change occurs.

Nothing is happening which would have us believe that a proper football pyramid is a possibility within the next 10 years.

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huddo - 11 May 2021 5:16 PM
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Not sure if their attendance are big enough to warrant inclusion.

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Tbone - 5 Mar 2020 11:12 AM
So with expression of interest from the FFA for a National Second Division what clubs would everyone like to see in it?

i would propose a 14 team competition to start and every state and territories should have a club in it.
obviously nsw and Victoria have more clubs. 

It should be a mix of NSL clubs that can afford entry with good facilities and new clubs formed.

what would be your NSD sides?

I'd prefer existing teams over new sides, maybe with an exception for new sides if one was established with a solid business plan and backing in a "new" area.

If it's a 14 team competition, the top 14 state league teams by their performance seems like a pretty good indicator;

Bentleigh Greens (VIC)
Hume City (VIC)
Heidelberg United (VIC)
Brisbane Strikers (QLD)
Blacktown City (NSW)
Sydney United 58 (NSW)
South Melbourne (VIC)
APIA Leichhardt Tigers FC (NSW)
Canberra Olympic (ACT)
Palm Beach (QLD)
Avondale (VIC)
Green Gully (VIC)
Olympic FC (QLD)
Adelaide City (SA)



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petszk - 11 May 2021 5:54 PM
Tbone - 5 Mar 2020 11:12 AM

I'd prefer existing teams over new sides, maybe with an exception for new sides if one was established with a solid business plan and backing in a "new" area.

If it's a 14 team competition, the top 14 state league teams by their performance seems like a pretty good indicator;

Bentleigh Greens (VIC)
Hume City (VIC)
Heidelberg United (VIC)
Brisbane Strikers (QLD)
Blacktown City (NSW)
Sydney United 58 (NSW)
South Melbourne (VIC)
APIA Leichhardt Tigers FC (NSW)
Canberra Olympic (ACT)
Palm Beach (QLD)
Avondale (VIC)
Green Gully (VIC)
Olympic FC (QLD)
Adelaide City (SA)

I believe around 30? clubs have ambitions to join the NSD like the ex NSL Marconi Syd Olympic west adl to name a few and being all equal,  the ones that missed out will cry foul play and probably start legal action, hope not.
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Should be done by promotion from NPL and nothing else

Europe is funding the war not Chelsea football club

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petszk - 11 May 2021 5:54 PM
Tbone - 5 Mar 2020 11:12 AM

I'd prefer existing teams over new sides, maybe with an exception for new sides if one was established with a solid business plan and backing in a "new" area.

If it's a 14 team competition, the top 14 state league teams by their performance seems like a pretty good indicator;

Bentleigh Greens (VIC)
Hume City (VIC)
Heidelberg United (VIC)
Brisbane Strikers (QLD)
Blacktown City (NSW)
Sydney United 58 (NSW)
South Melbourne (VIC)
APIA Leichhardt Tigers FC (NSW)
Canberra Olympic (ACT)
Palm Beach (QLD)
Avondale (VIC)
Green Gully (VIC)
Olympic FC (QLD)
Adelaide City (SA)

Don't know about the other states but you've got VIC all wrong. Hume, Avondale and Bentleigh may have had solid years over the last 5 or 6 but they are minnows and wouldn't have ambitions to compete nationally I would think.... Maybe Im wrong.
Your suggestion has merit though, basing it on table finish.. maybe make it fair and advise all clubs Australia wide that top 4 in Vic, top 4 in Nsw , top 2 in SA etc etc (or whatever spread is decided) in season 2022 will have first preference for NSD in 2023... That will set a fire up everyone's backsides I can tell you.... For new teams in regions they can start from State leagues and win their way up, its the only way this will work.

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Caterm - 11 May 2021 6:16 PM
petszk - 11 May 2021 5:54 PM

I believe around 30? clubs have ambitions to join the NSD like the ex NSL Marconi Syd Olympic west adl to name a few and being all equal,  the ones that missed out will cry foul play and probably start legal action, hope not.

As long as promotion from NPL is timelined to happen quickly, I reckon the teams that miss out will  be satisfied that they at least know what criteria they need to meet and that there is a possible pathway to the top division..... and it will give them time to get their clubs, grounds, admin and squads in order..
That has always been the biggest failing of the Aleague .... They just excluded existing clubs with some vague platitudes about ethnicity this, and geographic spread that and never gave them/us a directive to follow...
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dirkvanadidas - 11 May 2021 7:49 PM
Should be done by promotion from NPL and nothing else

I agree with that concept, but whether or not those clubs have the appetite or the finances to join a NSD are another matter. 

If next year was to become the qualifiers to join a NSD for instance, imagine how hungry certain teams that may have been cruising over the previous years will be. Will certainly be interesting to watch. 

In reality though, I just see a set of criteria being required to be met and some selection process put in place. It will largely come down to finances.

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Melbourne Victory

      

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Buggalugs the Third - 12 May 2021 9:26 AM
Melbourne Victory

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It's funny how people still think Adelaide City would be able to make a go of it.
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localstar - 12 May 2021 10:25 AM
It's funny how people still think Adelaide City would be able to make a go of it.

well its a group 30 odd NPL Clubs as you know that have put their hat in the ring.
All comes down how well they can prove their worth right ? thats what to find out in the first place be it AC or any others.
IF they can't meet to the financial modelling in the end they won't be IN. How it goes.
If its funny to you re AC there maybe someone else or 3 that think otherwise who have financial backing thinking to support them being its finally going to be a National 2nd teir comp.
https://www.ftbl.com.au/news/the-full-list-of-30-prospective-second-division-clubs-553308


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Monoethnic Social Club - 11 May 2021 11:02 PM
petszk - 11 May 2021 5:54 PM

Don't know about the other states but you've got VIC all wrong. Hume, Avondale and Bentleigh may have had solid years over the last 5 or 6 but they are minnows and wouldn't have ambitions to compete nationally I would think.... Maybe Im wrong.
Your suggestion has merit though, basing it on table finish.. maybe make it fair and advise all clubs Australia wide that top 4 in Vic, top 4 in Nsw , top 2 in SA etc etc (or whatever spread is decided) in season 2022 will have first preference for NSD in 2023... That will set a fire up everyone's backsides I can tell you.... For new teams in regions they can start from State leagues and win their way up, its the only way this will work.

I was just ranking the non-A-League teams by their performance in the FFA cup.,
http://www.aleaguestats.com/A-League_34FFACupStats.html#ResultsTeam

(Interesting to note that by that criteria, Brisbane Roar (27th) and Wellington Phoenix (48th) also wouldn't make the cut)


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LFC. - 12 May 2021 10:40 AM
localstar - 12 May 2021 10:25 AM

well its a group 30 odd NPL Clubs as you know that have put their hat in the ring.
All comes down how well they can prove their worth right ? thats what to find out in the first place be it AC or any others.
IF they can't meet to the financial modelling in the end they won't be IN. How it goes.
If its funny to you re AC there maybe someone else or 3 that think otherwise who have financial backing thinking to support them being its finally going to be a National 2nd teir comp.
https://www.ftbl.com.au/news/the-full-list-of-30-prospective-second-division-clubs-553308

I was of the impression that the clubs that have chosen to chip in to get the proposal financed aren't necessarily wanting to join the NSD,

and those that didn't chip in aren't necessarily excluded

      

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petszk - 12 May 2021 12:10 PM
Monoethnic Social Club - 11 May 2021 11:02 PM

I was just ranking the non-A-League teams by their performance in the FFA cup.,
http://www.aleaguestats.com/A-League_34FFACupStats.html#ResultsTeam

(Interesting to note that by that criteria, Brisbane Roar (27th) and Wellington Phoenix (48th) also wouldn't make the cut)

Absolutely, I get the sentiment and also these clubs have performed well in their leagues the last few years. I just feel that the incentive of promotion to a national league would make for a more interesting 1 or 2 seasons in the NPL as quite a few clubs would be absolutely gung ho about being promoted on merit and feel they have a point to prove to get there. I know in Victoria South, Knights and Heidelberg may well assume to be shoe-ins (and based on fans, facilities, members, organization etc they are) but can you imagine the buy in from "smaller" clubs wanting to make it too? I think this will be the best thing to EVER happen to the clubs outside the Aleague system... 
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Buggalugs the Third - 12 May 2021 12:10 PM
LFC. - 12 May 2021 10:40 AM

I was of the impression that the clubs that have chosen to chip in to get the proposal financed aren't necessarily wanting to join the NSD,

and those that didn't chip in aren't necessarily excluded

I think these "original 34" or however many they were are the "small blind" in a hand of poker that may take an interesting turn by the end of the year..... The "flop" may very well reveal a conference system stuffed full of franchise B teams and then everyone else just folds..... 
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Monoethnic Social Club - 12 May 2021 12:52 PM
Buggalugs the Third - 12 May 2021 12:10 PM

I think these "original 34" or however many they were are the "small blind" in a hand of poker that may take an interesting turn by the end of the year..... The "flop" may very well reveal a conference system stuffed full of franchise B teams and then everyone else just folds..... 

There should be a reserve league - probably conference based to allow for more youth and returning injury players. However, that is a separate issue to a NSD. We need both. 
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