Still not sure about the status of the AL licenses. Chris Nikou confirmed at the inaugural Football Writers Festival that all existing AL clubs (except Wellington) had a license until 2034, but others have disputed that. Not sure.

But let's just assume they do... that would mean no club can be relegated before 2035.

However, that doesn't mean clubs can't be promoted. If I were an FA apparatchik I'd be looking to build a NSD which started with (say) 12 teams in 2023 with immediate P/R to the NPL (say 2 teams). It would create more content (to which I'd happily subscribe) and generate the truncated pyramid - below the AL.

At the agreed time, the prize for winning the league (say 2031) would be promotion to the AL. Meaning three would be promoted from the NPL in those years.

Finally, in 2035, you'd have a 16 team AL with P/R to the NSD thus finally establishing the fully connected pyramid which anyone with half a brain in football wants.

Why isn't something like this the vision?

1)  There needs to be clarity - even if as someguyjc says it is 2034  (disappointing but clarity needs to be there). Hopefully much sooner.
2)  An absolute no from me. APL needs a hybrid reserves/youth league. A NSD is a separate beast

All good except the A-League is pretty definitely going to expand to 16 well before then, and via the licensing rather than promotion route (it's more lucrative for them to sell spots than just to give them to a club on merit, as cynical as that is).

Canberra is a lock for #13, probably by 2023. #14 will likely come at the same time. Then I imagine #15 and #16 a couple of years after that. The sounds from APL are that the focus will be on previously unrepresented regions (the lukewarm response to WU and Macarhur giving the lie to the previous regime's "fish where the fish area" mantra). So pick three from Gold Coast, Auckland, Hobart and Wollongong for the other sports.

I would also like a concrete road map from FA/APL, saying: OK if the NSD gets set up and passes certain standards of viability (revenue, fan interest, etc.), then we can begin pro-rel by such and such a date.

The most viable starting time to me seems to be around 2026-2027. It's when the current broadcasting rights expire, and pro-rel would pretty much require a winter season a-League to work. It also gives the existing (and prospective) clubs time to prepare for the transition to pro-rel. if you have five years warning and you still get relegated, that's on you.

So you would have 3-4 seasons of an NSD to bed it down, hopefully with pro-rel to the state leagues in this window, and perhaps with expansion from an original 12-team format to 16 teams. Then have 1-up/1-down in the first season, before increasing it to 2-3 teams going up and down every year.

But even without these kinds of guarantees, I think the AAFC should just go for it. If an NSD proves to be stable and viable, then it will create its own momentum for pro-rel, since at that point it would be a no-brainer.

And I don't think anyone is really blaming the AAFC for the delays in an NSD happening, more that there is a disconnect between their rhetoric of "we can pay for the whole thing ourselves" and the slow pace of things, which suggests that they are actually holding it for assistance from FA. If it really was just a case of FA ratifying the league and helping out with minimal administrative duties (match officials and the like), then I don't think there would be any blockage from the federation. Their worry is probably that they are being asked to fund it and it turns out to be a multimillion dollar albatross around their necks.

That said, I think an NSD would still be worth it for player development even if it had to be subsidised to a certain degree. Now that FA is no longer involved with the A-League, it must have a certain amount of administrative capacity for a second division. And its recent broadcast deal with 10/Paramount actually leaves it in a better off position than the old Foxtel deal, which it mostly had to distribute to clubs. 

All,of the above is valid. Thus the frustration at FAs lack of action....

Why  is  all  the  money  going  to  the  APL?  It  was  the FFA  that  built   the  A-league...

And  doesn't  F.A   have  a  share   in  the  APL ?

Surely  it  is   F.A's  job  to  make  sure  a  2nd Division is  set  up?

All the money goes to the APL because they own the league and are selling a percentage to an investor. 

The FA does have a share in the APL but that doesn't mean they can just take some money. They get their standard fee as part of the independence agreement.

It is currently the FAs job to setup a 2nd div, but only if the board decide it's something the FA should do. 

Anyone thinking pro / rel is coming in the next 20 years is deluded beyond belief. 

The only way I can see it ever becoming a thing is if enough '2nd tier' clubs say 'fuck it' and set up their own show and by sheer weight of numbers force the A-League to get on board.

Very, very unlikely. Pretty much resigned myself to never seeing this in my lifetime. 

I blame them.  If you want things to happen you have to bring forward solutions not problems.

IF they won't start without having guarantees that their competition will be P&R with another then it will never start.  It takes a single Club owner to stop it.
If they rely upon other levels of the game to fund them, via the FA, then it won't start, because hundreds of other clubs will block that and quite loudly as well. (Other clubs don't fund mine, why should I fund theirs?)
If it is COVID stopping them (most likely) then that is reasonable, expected, and not really a problem in any longer term.

An initial short season is all that is necessary to test the structure.  It is likely to be successful because it is new and shiny. 
To pass the test it simply has to get to the end of season and stay true to its stated ambitions.

On P&R it is not even worth considering how teams can be promoted to the A-League until  the process by which teams can be promoted and relegated from the pyramid below has been solved and demonstrated.  Until that is done, then there is no clear and orderly path visible that would satisfy a reasonable demand of a trouble-free implementation with those "above".  "If you won't do it, then why should we" is going to be shoved down their throat until the end of time otherwise. 

Once the dominoes line up then the FA can pull the trigger (love mixed metaphors)  and simply nominate a date for implementation. 

I still expect an initial "demonstration" kick-around being announced soon with a full League launch next year.  Mitigating against this early start might well be the state of Victorian and NSW Clubs after the tribulations of the last 12 months.  It's not a massive problem if nothing happens in the next couple of months but it would demonstrate ambition.

I read your first sentence and I'm not going to bother reading the rest. Ridiculous to suggest clubs should start a league instead of the governing body. 

welcome to the future

So   the  FA  basically  just  gave   away  an  almost  half-billion  dollar  league  for   nothing   but   a   "standard  fee" that  isn't   even   enough    for  them   to   set   up  a  2nd  division?   Who   on  earth   at  FA  is   making   these   decisions?  

I  don't  get   what  you  mean  that  it  is  currently  the  FAs job  to  set  up a  2nd  division, but only if the  board  decide  its  something  the  FA  should  do?  That  sentence   makes  no  sense  at  all.  

I read your first sentence and LMAO.

When has any enduring competition ever started from the top down?  It's always the Clubs that start them.  What?  Do you think the associations magically form themselves and then somehow create Clubs?  Well that did happen with the A League I suppose LOL.
What about every other single competition in the bloody country?  What about every other country that has been playing football for 100 years.

What came first the Clubs or the State Leagues?  What came first the Clubs or the State Associations. 
What is happening here? The clubs formed the AAFC to start up a new League the "Premiership".  Don't you think that is normal?

Twit.

You can advocate that the clubs start the league themselves AND not blame them for not having already done it, particularly in the last two years when Covid has knocked everything sideways. In retrospect it's a very good thing they've held off, imagine if they were all systems go for 2021 and had to cancel the season halfway through due to lockdowns. At least now they can wait till a less disruptive time to make their debut.

The clubs just have to be realistic about the finances of the thing. Even a semi-pro national comp will probably be loss-making for the first few years (the NSL, incidentally, was loss-making for its first 27 years).

Pro-rel with NPL should be easy: winner of the NPL national play-offs goes up, last placed team goes down. Or you could have 2 up-2 down and both NPL finalists get promoted.You would occasionally have issues with league sizes if say a NSW teams goes up and Vic team goes down, but leagues all around the world manage this,

To my mind the best way to see if pro / rel would work once the 2nd division is up and running would be to promote the winner into the A-league but don't relegate anyone initially.

In fact do that for 4 straight years. At least this way you have a 4 year bedding in period to see if these teams coming into the A league are going to get flogged and collapse or be competitive.

After 4 years they can either hit the go button or revoke the licences of the poor performers and go back to a 12 or 14 team comp.

Sort of a no risk strategy. (Of course there'd be challenges.)

Someone tells this idea is purely mythical from both sides of this (FA and the second division group whatever they called) and just trying to keep people hopes up but after how many years of this being discussed I wonder if the idea is shelved behind the scenes?

Prefer they come out and said something whether the idea is financially practical or not they just continue us to keep finding the answers the long it goes on.

When was the last update? 

Clubs can't start a league without the blessing of the governing body or their players will not be allowed to play in any FIFA competitions. Look it up. 

Comparing starting a league to what would have happened 50-100 years ago doesn't make sense. Things don't operate in that manner anymore. 

No need for the name calling. 

What was the very first action the clubs did when creating a common set of rules for a football league in England?  They CREATED the top by forming The FA........ By definition clubs created the top so they could govern the game below.

https://mobile.twitter.com/john_sugu/status/1459108968689651718
For an organisation that sometimes approves of Lakeside and sometimes doesn't, they certainly spend alot of time here....... 

Correct! That is my point. After they formed the clubs, they formed an association.  The association didn't form the clubs or the competition.  It didn't exist.

Clubs can't start a league without the blessing of the governing body or their players will not be allowed to play in any FIFA competitions. Look it up.
Comparing starting a league to what would have happened 50-100 years ago doesn't make sense. Things don't operate in that manner anymore.
No need for the name calling.   

They CAN start a League without anybody's blessing.  It's actually the way it is nearly always done. They could kick off now, but by doing so they may invest a lot of effort in a losing gamble, if they wish to become a fully vertically integrated professional league down the track.  It would not be wise to go the "without the FFA's blessing" path if they want to avoid massive pain from jealous established bodies going forward.

  After they get their comp formed and ready, they then seek to join with a FIFA affiliated (if they desire) association at the appropriate level (FFA) .
That is the place we seemingly have reached at the present time.  Once they notify the FFA that they are going to form a League, there follows negotiation between them for what is required for them to register their League with the FFA.  For a mooted national professional league there is only one body extant to go to.

The FFA have to negotiate with respect to their current membership as well as their own upper affiliations (AFC and FIFA).  The FFA will have to consult with State Assocs reference their NPL interests and with the A Leagues bodies who will be keen to see that it only affects them positively.  The PFA and even the Refs will want to be consulted as well.  All that is a lot of talkfests and will result in a fair bit of back and forth.

The FFA doesn't just start a second division and then run a raffle to fill it up.  I mean, they could, but they would reinvent all the problems of the last 4 decades to the sound of grinding teeth and loud sighs.

People lose sight of the fact that you can raise a team, start a comp and have fun and bikkies and never, ever, even once, have to talk to a local, State or national FIFA affiliated organisation.  People own football not FIFA.  Every single recreational club could leave the FFA orbit tomorrow and there would be nothing of such great loss to upset them too much.  In fact in most, if not every state, the clubs have dumped existing State Associations and formed new ones several times over the last century. 

Different with professional teams and competitions.  Ultimately they need FFA and FIFA.  The amusing part is that they all need each other to survive and grow, but don't seem to grasp it.  Excruciatingly painful is that the existing professional League and the FFA would actually benefit the most should a 2nd level national comp exist by increasing their "profit" from the game in the future.  The greater their professional focussed base, the greater their chance of earning real money/respect by producing players that have valuable contracts to sell.  More and better players means greater success in internationally visible arenas and a genuine shot at a return on their investments.  Better players means a more successful national team which leads to better sponsorship and TV deals.  It's all win for them.  Getting it right so that everybody profits is good business. 

I'm assuming that they are working hard to get it right.  That's the optimist in me.

Why  doesn't  the   FA   just  set   up  a   2nd Division ?  I  mean , its  not  rocket  science !!  Just  fund  it &  start  it ,  its  not  hard...

Well said SWandP. The talking heads need a common purpose, and so far that has not been evident. Hopefully the slow and steady approach that is currently under way succeeds where other plans have failed.

So start a competition without the blessing of FFA or FIFA? Come on. 

That's exactly the point. If a Div 2 were the 'open and shut' financial case their clubs say it is, there is absolutely nothing stopping them.... Several US national comps have started this way.

But we know the AFC clubs NEED the FA to invest hevily and mandate Pro-Rel (even at a fixed future point), because the TV rights cash (for those going up) and parachute payments (for those going down) are the only way a Div 2 with Pro-Rel will become sustainable for any club in either division. Without the FA and APL chequebook to smooth transitions up and down in both talent and finance terms, both divisions will fail.....

CFG, CBS and the FA are all investors in APL Co and there will be no lack of clarity about this from any of these three big players. As soon as I saw CBS had funded the APL and the FA - I knew immimmediately this had killed Div 2 with Pro-Rel for a minimum of 5 years. A stand alone, or FA subsidised Div 2 could still go ahead, but as I have said elsewhere, the FA have taken a massive financial haircut (over and above the amount saved by not running the league) and with the women's world cup on the horizon and the recent pivot on pathways and indigenous football, the FA are clearly 'sticking to their knitting' on game development and regulation. I would not expect them to be tipping too much into a Div 2 on a prayer. JJ and his funders are both too too smart to allow that.

Even if the game goes gangbusters and CBS take the Year 3 trigger and pay more for the extension, while the conversation about Pro-Rel may start again, Silver Lake will be wanting their initial dividend.

Rinse and repeat.....

...except the FFA who have to approve the competition.

Create A-League second division but we have final say, says FFA boss

By Vince Rugari

September 15, 2020 — 6.07pm

"We encourage the AAFC to work collaboratively with FFA who, ultimately, will need to sanction any such competition and its composition."

Absolutely nothing stopping them apart from the fact that, as football clubs, playing in a non FIFA sanctioned league would mean they would be ineligible to field FIFA certified players or compete in international youth tournaments like they are now.  Evan the proposed European Super League Clubs shat their dacks at the prospect of setting up a league without the blessing of papa Infantino, UEFA and their "parent" federations yet you want community clubs in Australia to try the same thing????

Some "interesting" opinions on here on NPL clubs starting their own league because that's what was done 50, 100, 150 years ago. FA have to put a structure in place with rules and regulations that aligns with their football plan. Do they have a football plan? Might actually need to have one.

I have. Twice.  Your move.

Did you actually read past the first para?  No?

What?