I’m on my holiday but It’s an interesting topic to discuss about.

For me I always feel we punch above our weight largely to our inferior playing quality, only the 2006 team I could recall we could compete but even then there was this ignorance that we can’t play football! 

16 weeks for grassroots? That's insane

Does that number vary much from state to state?

Merry  Christmas and a happy new year

Im not in the loop like I used to be but did recall grassroots seasons in the NSW to be around 16 weeks a year but elite football at SAP and NPL youth level its around 40 weeks not sure if that's changed but clearly there is a gap there needs to be improved on.

I think in Japan they play and train for 52 weeks a year, but no matter the level of the pyramid they seem treat every player the same regardless of what level which is the key factor, that's make a big difference in terms of talent pool you develop as well and maybe why they have such an impressive conveyer belt of talent at all levels.
We seem to treat each layer of the talent pool differently and divert too early? Anyway its a good discussion.

Thanks same to you mate, always good chatting football on here.

that is super interesting

would love someone who knows how it is done in europe to jump in. Looking at the u13 southampton league they seem to go for only around 16 weeks a year actually

Why are the Socceroos punching above they're weight? They won it a while back, they also got to round of 16 on the recent WC, & they are 25 in the world. This loser mentality must end some time.

It’s good old Euro snobbery saying the individual players in our squad aren’t playing in top 5 leagues - like several Japan NT players do - therefore aren’t ‘worthy’ of fifa ranking of 25 and 11th place at Wcup. Socceroos results are proof that the team does better than the individual parts look on paper

BT 
I don’t agree eurosnobbery has anything to do with it from my pov.
Putting aside what league our players are in or not.
How many games before koff do you sit there in confidence we’re gonna get the result ?
Have more possession ?
Shots on goal ? 

I’m on holiday ATM and can’t access my desk top computer. I can only access my phone, which isn’t ideal for posting. 

Not all true. The problem is we have both we don't have stars and we def can't play together.  You watch The Palestine game do you think Irvine and Baccus can play together ? Players were struggling out there. Many players in the current team still got poor basic first touch, vision & dribbling skills. 

Palestine was the exception not the norm.  However, agree with you, Mark_000au, the Socceroos' performance against Palestine was abysmal compared to pretty well all games they've played since against UAE and Peru in the Qatar WCQ sudden death play offs.

Disagree they have basic technique issues ( handling speed, first touch, running with the ball, striking the ball and 1v1 attacking and defensive skills), but most of our South American, Asian and European opposition, are better technically than us. However, technique, athleticism and speed over the  turf are relatively easy to identify.

Where Aus excels to make  up for deficits in the three aforementioned specific game football based performance criteria - game sense, communication, football conditioning, mental strength, unity of purpose, team cohesion, organisation and tactical nous,  and having one of the best international coaches in world football, Arnie) -   Australia compensates for technical inferiority,   lower athleticism of some players and even less speed over the turf, particularly in wide areas, by being proficient in other specific game based football criteria.  

As for Baccus and Irvine not playing well as a unit in the Palestine game, IMO Irvine (out of the Palestine game a lot), Goodwin in particular, Boyle and Metcalfe, all had very poor games by their own standards. Goodwin was furious with himself at times!

To go back and have a look at the two games against Ecuador and England, Goodwin and Irvine were immense. I've just had a second look at them. Palestine was the exception, not the norm. I've just had a second look at that one too.

I've had time to round off some Continental Confederations's number of Big Five players from specific nations. There are many atrocious international football teams across the world, who have heaps of  Big UEFA Big Five players. Yet their international teams underperform, or even worse, rarely play any big tournaments, for decade after decade.

Whereas it appears to me, given the fascination with Aussie Abroad, and which Aussie is doing well where,  it would be prudent if a number of Aussie UEFA adulators, should consider the following countries in Europe with plenty of Big Five Players, but they have chronic underperforming international teams. 

Last week when Grazor complied the  list of Big Five players, Aus had 0 playing!

However, consider the following:

*Austria - 12 Big Five players playing last weekend. 

When did Austria last qualify for a World Cup?   Have  they qualified for any recent UEFA Euro Champs? 12  Big Five players is one complete team of a national team  Austrian team comprising all Big Five players, but whatever the Austrian national coaching set up is, it isn't working at international level. They aren't  that good at playing asa team unit with each other, despite  what appears to be a decent youth development system to develop individual qualities of Austrian footballers.

* Scotland - 9 Big Five players playing last weekend.

It has been well documented on this forum, but  Scotland haven't qualified for a WC since 1998. I think they've just qualified for the imminent UEFA Euro Champs.  I think I've read when they've qualified for any World Cups, they've never progressed past the group stage! The Socceroos have  qualified for the last 16 in two of the last five successive WC tournaments Aus has qualified for.

* Norway -  7 Big Five players playing last weekend.

When Bert VM first coached the Socceroos, when he was experimenting I recount that Norway might have beaten us in a practice match for Russia 2018.

 However, Norway have barely qualified for any WCs or Euro Champs, for decades, with their current impressive crop of 7 Big Five players for a country of only 4 million or so.

*Czechoslovakia - 5 players and Slovakia 7 players. They used to be one country until recently.

As one country playing under Czechoslovakia, they had quite a degree of success as a  football nation. However, since they've split, they haven't qualified for many recent WCs, and I'm not sure how many Euro Champs?

* Greece - 6 Big Five players played last weekend.

Greece also has 4 big clubs, with decent ELO rankings according to Grazor ( not my specialist field). So with   Greek players playing in these Greek domestic big four clubs in Greece - AEK Athens, PAOK, Olympiakos and and Panathinaikos, plus their 6 Greek nationals who are  Big Five players, they aren't doing very well either in international football.

I know that defensive old school German coach ?, coached Greece to a Euro Champs title in 2004 ( very impressive for a country of 11 million), but what  have Greece done in the decade prior, or two decades since?

-Compare the aforementioned UEFA countries to Aus, with  0 Big Five players playing at this point in time, performing as an international team unit, playing all over the globe.
Would you prefer to have a country like Aus, punching well above its weight and outperforming all the aforementioned teams  in international football, who have a healthy number of UEFA Big Five players, and sometimes have some rich, big domestic clubs too?
Or would you prefer to be a national of the international UEFA underperformers, who have a decent number of footballers deemed to be good enough for recruitment by coaches in Big Five clubs?


There are many more countries, from other continents who have arguably underperformed in international football, and within UEFA, who have had better international success, to be analysed in some  following posts.

I've mentioned this unusual phenomenon to mates who don't follow football.

One of them thinks it is analogous to some Aussie wine buffs, who constantly prefer French wine, to Aus wine.

You are wrong again. Scotland qualified for the 2020 Euro's. That is 2 times in a row now rather than 24 years.

With due respect, when I've watched Brazilian club football, in terms of technique it is easily  the highest level of technical football I've watched in any league. 

Technique is categorised into - handling speed, first touch, running with the ball, striking the ball - and - 1v1 attacking and defensive skills.

In terms of handling speed, first touch, striking the ball (passing over range with the instep and outside of  the foot) and 1v1 attacking skills, I've never seen anything as good at club level as the Brazilian league.

Of course if  organisation, game sense, communication, football conditioning, mental strength, etc, are added,  the UEFA Big Five clubs more than compensate. The fact that 52 Brazilian footballers, play Big Five football in UEFA,  another continent, indicates Brazilians are more in demand than any other football nation in Europe, outside the domestic players who play in the Big Five themselves.

 In fact, 52 Brazilians playing in UEFA Big Five isn't that much lower than 75 English domestic players playing  Big Five, mostly in the EPL.

It is the technical qualities of Brazilians the Big Five talent scouts perceive as superior to UEFA footballers.

When I used to watch the Argentinian league, that was technically very high quality too. They have 23 players playing Big Five. Easily the second highest outside Europe.

Uruguay has 8 players playing Big Five. For a country of 3 million, that is incredible! Uruguay  doesn't often finish 3rd after Brazil an Argentina in  WCQ campaigns in South America, but it usually performs the best in WCs outside Brazil and Argentina.

I'd surmise the best players from the other South American leagues tend to play in Brazil or Argentina for their club football.

I've acknowledged that and congratulated Scotland for qualifying  for the 2024 Euro Champs. Fair play to Scotland!

Did Scotland get out of the group stage in 2020 Euro Champs? If you don't respond, I'll assume they didn't.

As you can see from the data presented, there are even less successful international football paradigms within UEFA, than Scotland. Some countries, like Austria, with a population of 9 million, have 12 Big Five players, but are less successful at playing international football, within UEFA, than Scotland.

I'm also amused that when Aus journo, Adrian Dean, who writes  for Inside Sport, this site, visits Scottish football forums, Scottish fans think Aussie footballers are rubbish, and the Socceroos are rubbish. A bit embarrassing when the Socceroos reached the last 16 in the Qatar WC, beating Denmark 1-0, knocking them out of the comp.

Denmark  won the UEFA group Scotland was competing in for the  WCQs for Qatar, finishing with 27 points to Scotland's 23 points.. 

No they didn't get out of their group. They lost to  Czechoslovakia and Croatia but drew with England.

Scotland finished second in its group in attempting to qualify for Qatar but lost out to Ukraine in the semi finals of qualification. They lost 2 -0 to Denmark in the first round then beat Denmark 2 -0  at home, rather than easily being accounted for by Denmark home and away which you incorrectly stated.

Africa

This may be the continent outside South America, that provides most players who play Big Five football outside Europe.

Group 1
Senegal 10
Morocco 6
Ivory Coast 12
Cameroon 9
Nigeria 9

Group 2
Algeria 12
Ghana 12
Tunisia 3
Mali 7
Egypt 2
South Africa 1

I've  delineated two African groups.

Group 1 is probably  more successful in international football than Group 2.  Morocco may not have been prior to Qatar, but played brilliantly using a 4-5-1 with a 1:4 midfield to execute a counter attacking game plan - usually with only just over 30% possession in most games they played. I'm gobsmacked, because it  is very hard to concentrate for such long periods when the other team has the ball. Italy is one of the only teams who can do this really effectively over protracted periods, within games, and over the decades.

For the semi-finalists Morocco had easily less Big Five players than Croatia 17, Argentina 23 ( winners) and France 122. It  indicates whomever the Moroccan coach was, they played very effectively as a team unit.

Morocco also had less play Big Five players, 6, than the other quarter finalists Brazil 52, Netherlands 23, Switzerland 17 and England 75. In Qatar 2022, they value added as a team unit to the the individuals playing for the country.

Senegal also finished 10th, one place above Australia 11th, with 10 Big Five players. Senegal finished in front of Spain 121, Germany 117 and  Italy 79 ( who didn't  make the World Cup).

 Senegal appears to be another African team who played better as a team unit with 10 Big Five players compared to Denmark 22, Belgium 25, and Poland with 12 Big Five players. Austria with 12 Big Five players didn't qualify for Qatar and Serbia with 12 in the Big Five, were knocked out by Switzerland, 17 in the  Big Five, in Qatar.

Ivory Coast 12, Nigeria 9 and Cameroon 9, seem to be consistent qualifiers for World Cups.

Group 2

Algeria with 12  - must be considered an underachiever given the Big Five cattle they have. 

I might be confusing Ghana 12, but do they regularly qualify for WCs?

Ditto Mali 7 - I can't remember them qualifying much?

Reading about Egypt, they have often done very well in intra-continental African championships. They  currently only have 2 playing in the Big Five, but frequently fail to qualify for WCs despite their success within Africa.

With so many teams succeeding at the World Cup with so many Big Five players, Australia's performance was remarkable. Once again I repeat, Australia had O Big Five players in Qatar, unless Souttar was getting a few EPL games then.

It keeps getting back to the Aus team unit - and other  more difficult to identify traits in game based performance criteria that contribute to effective team units. These are game  sense, communication, positioning when attacking and defending, vision, mental strength, team unity, organisation and will to win.

Goodwin, Ryan, Behich ( not in the A L recently with some silly brain snaps), Irvine, Mooy, Rowles, Duke, and now O'Neill, have many of these traits. Ditto Degenek, dropped for Qatar. I like the look of Circati too.

Jordi Bos has the easier to identify traits. He is an impressive technician and an athlete.

In terms  of technique, I'm just watching O'Neill display the handling speed and slick pass and move football in limited time and space, playing effectively through the lines of Argentina in China. This is impressive and I think we have more technically adept young tyros on the way - with a higher technical quality.

Hrustic has the high technical level too with the ball at his feet, but  has lower level game sense and  vision. He has played  some Big Five football. 

Sorry misread the table.

Scotland 23 home and away points, drew with Austria 2-2 at home, and drew 1-1 with Israel away, to cede 4 points to Denmark's 27 points, in the group WCQs.

By Scotland, 9 Big Five players, beating Austria away, with  12 Big Five players, in WCQs, they arguably defeated a team of higher quality on paper, as Austria have a higher quantity of quality Big Five cattle. However, Scotland cracked under pressure at home to draw 2-2 with Austria.

Drawing with Israel in an away game in the WCQs, a team they should have beaten on paper, based on domestic league quality in some rankings, but not others, was another Scottish failure to perform. Israeli conditions, are a bit similar to what Scotland would encounter in Asia.

However, in terms of having 9 Big Five players, Scotland, should have defeated Israel, who have few, if any, Big Five players. 

Scotland also defeated lowly ranked Moldova in Moldova, which would probably also be similar to Asia in aspects of culture, socio-economically, harder playing surfaces and some hotter playing conditions.

In the 2020 Euro Champs, Scotland should have defeated Czech Republic,  who boast 5 Big Five players, who they lost to, compared to Scotland with 9 Big Five players.

Scotland's high point in the Euro Champs, as has often been the case historically, was a draw against England, the tournament finalists.   England has 75 Big Five players to select from, compared to Scotland's 9.

Scotland losing to Croatia in the Euro Champs, should have been expected, according to Croatia having 17 Big Five players. Notwithstanding,  Scotland is a richer country and has a bigger population - 6 million to Croatia's 4 million. 

I wonder if the Scottish Football Assoc have visited Croatia to see what they are doing so well for a country with a population of only 4 million?

In the WCQs splitting the ledger 2-2 home and away with Denmark, was impressive. However, Denmark with 4 million has 17 Big Five players compared to Scotland's 9.

 Denmark, qualified. Scotland didn't. I wonder again if the Scottish FA have visited  Denmark, to see what the Danish Football Assoc is doing as well as they are? That is, apart  from drawing with Tunisia and losing to the Socceroos in the Qatar World Cup. 

Ultimately, the Scottish FA should visit  the Football Aus Technical Dept. The  Football Aus Tech Dept has visited Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain, Japan, Brazil, Uruguay and Argentina, to import high quality, powerhouse training ground methodology to Aus football.

by my measure Scotlands elo is slightly higher than their squad suggests. So they are actually going through a good period internationally

LOL

As if the Scottish FA are going to take notice of the opinion of someone who repeatedly displays his  ignorance of the Scottish game. They would most likely learn nothing from the Football Aus Technical Dept. The UEFA Pro Licence   is far superior to any Australian qualification.

The "Scottish FA exists to promote, foster and develop the game at all levels in this country" not just the national team.

Two successive Euro Champ qualifications is a vast improvement  from Scotland. It is nice to see the parent country where many Aussies play in the domestic league, qualify for big  tournaments.

I wonder if there is any  correlation to the number of  Big Five players Scotland had 10, 15, 20  years ago?

James Holland having considerable success in Austria, when their international team has struggled to qualify for much, suggests the Austrian league may also  not be great as a paradigm for international success.

Also, Aussies playing in Norway, may not be a particularly good league. Whereas any Aussies playing in Denmark, Switzerland or Croatia, are small countries producing high numbers of Big Five players - and - are having considerable  current international success. 

UEFA qualifications tend to be generic, with many countries.

The Dutch, French, Spanish digressed and kept their own systems in coach education, because they thought they were superior.

Serbia also has a tertiary education degree for professional coaches. 

 One phenomenon that doesn't occur in the original three aforementioned countries's coach education, is training ground practice that involves running without the ball. The Dutch, Spanish and French training ground practices are all game related. The Dutch KNVB at Zeist and the French at Clarefontaine, offer their own courses - not generic UEFA coach education. Football Aus coach education follows suit.

It wasn't until Gareth Southgate was one of the first English coaches to deviate from the norm, and seeking knowledge from outside the country, that England started to achieve more at underage and senior level with the national team scenario.

One guy I know , who coaches at English pro underage level,  considers the greatest mistake English football has made in the past, is thinking  the game stops at the English Channel. Simon Kuper has written quite a few books about it.

England won the World Cup in 1966. You can't achieve more than that in International football.

Southgate was born in 1970. He sure had a massive influence in that win.

They reached the semi finals in 1990 and 2018. Southgate was manager in 2018 but they did just fine before him.

If Australian coaching qualifications are of such a high standard why have all Australian coaches (Postecoglou aside) failed in Europe?

And how many Scottish coaches have been successful in Australia in recent times? 

How many have there been in recent times?

Ernie Merrick and Lawrie McKinna made a pretty good fist of it

Uruguay have won the WC twice and finished fourth  3 times times.  There's just 3 million of them compared to Englands 56 million population, and they have a fraction of the resources.  

By whatever measure England's football team  would have to be the biggest under-performers in international sport, period.  At some point it has to come down to their football coaching philosophy

England are ranked 5th in the World.

That is a pretty good measure.

Asia

Hardly any Asian players play Big Five.

Japan has 8.

South Korea 5.

Australia 0.

Asia had the second most teams 3, making the last 16 of the Qatar WC.

Comparatively, Africa has a plethora of current Big Five players. 2 African teams made the last 16 Senegal 10th with 10 Big Five players, and Morocco  made the semis with 6 Big Five players.  

It appears that UEFA teams need to have a plethora of Big Five players to go a long way in big tournaments like the WC, but some other countries who are members of other continental federations, don't need them to the same extent to have success.