Wrong again.

Genreau plays for Toulouse.

Here are the next ranked European teams outside the Big Five countries - in terms of numbers of Big Five players - and possible domestic leagues correlating in strength to national team results. 

Didn’t Genreau drop to Div 2 in France this season? 

Aus is a new kid on the block. 

No. Toulouse are Ligue 1.

Hrustic at Hellas Verona makes that 2 Australians.

You could increase it to 3 if you include Tyrese Francois at Fulham.

Australia played its first international in 1922.

Yeah that and football having been played in Australia since 1880 makes it the new kid on the block.

LOL.

We punch above our weight because Arnie's super defensive game style allows us to get results. It will be interesting to see how we go against weak Asian opposition (in Asia) where we need to create instead of just play on the counter.

We have zero in metric because general didn't start the week I looked. Other countries no doubt also have players on the bench that start other weeks

Kicked the shit out of Pele. Changed timing for the semi at the last minute to disadvantage their opponents who had to travel. Then 2-2 in the Final. 3rd and 4th goal should not stand. Third did not cross the line. Fourth there were pitch invaders on the ground.

It's very true, our whole game is basically press and counter. That's why development of younger players is so important and to be getting regular football minutes in proper European systems to actually learn how to play. This "Aussie DNA" system is not sustainable, way too inconsistent and almost useless for World Cup qualifiers. 

Japan has 15 players in top 5 leagues
- England 3
- France 3
- Italy 1
- Spain 1
- Germany 7

Although you could argue that Sugawara at AZ and Morita at Sporting Lisbon should really be considered same level.  Former has been voted in Eredivisie team of the year and the later is starter for the leader in Portugal this year. There is also strong rumours that Ao Tanaka is about to join Stuttgart from Buli2 Dusseldorf this Jan, and that is the reason he just got left out of the Asian Cup squad.  Not to mention the guys at Celtic

You should include Volpato (don't even bother with he's doesn't want to play for Australia). He's still an Australian playing in a top 5 league. Australia has a good future with players in top 5 leagues in the next 10 years and that's the important thing. Will probably have 10 by the next World Cup. 

To compare like with like I used a metric which had every countries big 5 players who started last week

Australia had zero. If you include our fringe players our numbers go up but so do everyone else's and the analysis wouldn't change much

So Hrustic volpato genreau and tyrese do not count under the methodology I used

People are welcome to make a different metric (like total minutes in big five this season per country) but that is much more work so I won't ;)

What??
England didn't play against Pele in 1966.

It was a pretty thuggish kick to be fair, booted Pele a decade into the future

Your rationale for comparing like for like, with starting players a few weeks ago, sounds eminently plausible to me, Grazor.

North America/Central America

USA - have 12 footballers playing in Big Five teams.

Mexico 5.

Jamaica 4.

To look at a team like Mexico with low numbers of Big Five players, but a consistent performer in international football over time, I had a look at a range of metrics to determine the quality of their domestic  league?

One  article  considered Mexico is the second best domestic league in Latin America. I  find it hard to believe it exceeds Argentina? 

Another had the Mexican league ranked  somewhere like 16th, and another  ranked 20th in World football. One of these articles proffered the Championship at 6th - which has to be utter rubbish. They  don't play against the UEFA teams who play intra-continental football - and just a few years ago it was a hoofball, second ball league. I know it has changed in recent times, with the high numbers of aggregate passes amongst Championship teams. Spanish league 2 was considered 10th or 11th in the same article.

Another article had Scotland ranked as 9th best league in UEFA. Amazing? Of course Russia and Ukraine have their domestic leagues ravaged by war, but they are two proven performers in UEFA. Russia currently has 1 Big Five player, whilst Ukraine has 5.

One article stated using criteria where the top 10 performing  clubs were compared from leagues across the  globe, claimed that Mexico was ranked 10th. Netherlands' Eredivisie  ranked 9th in the same article. One of the companies used was Opta - but Opta constantly changed its rankings across recent articles.

Reading into this, apart from USA having a poor cohort when they failed to qualify for a recent WC, compared to teams like Serbia, and particularly Norway with 12 apiece, maybe not Poland with 12, and definitely Scotland with 9, maybe the MLS has a higher quality domestic league than axiomatically   evaluated?

I also wonder if  some of the better Mexicans play in Brazil or Argentina, instead of Europe?

When I watched Mexico play Argentina in a WC fixture in South Africa WC 2010, both  teams sat back in a  Half Press, moderate Squeezing,  even languid Squeezing game plan.

Not so much in China, where it might have been hot, but in Qatar, Argentina really Squeezed Aus. Ditto Mexico really Squeezed us in the USA. Their national teams, and possibly domestic leagues, have been forced to improve in closing  down  space off the ball, when the other team has possession.

Aus's curriculum is to play possession , proactive football.

Against better teams we still struggle to have players technically adept enough do this well enough. The signs are the new generation of age 20 and under, who have had the same pathway in terms of methodology in Aus, as Netherlands, Spain and France, can do this better than previous generations.

Ahhhhh it's in the curriculum it must be true! Sorry. It's not like we can see proof of it on the park whenever Australia plays any team that isn't pox Asian opposition.

This response is literally wrong in every aspect. For once try watching and analyze something with your own brain rather than just refer to some dumb curriculum written by a nobody 15 years ago, and for you to actually think it was implemented successfully you must be deluded.

Let's look at 15 years ago, we had quality players in top leagues, in champions league teams such as Kewell, Culina, Viduka, Bresciano. These players where technically class and could mix it with the best players in the world. Now we have players coming up (from the generation you're talking about) like Jacob Farrell. The kid could probably barely do 10 juggles, honestly his one of the most technically inept professional footballers I've ever seen, and simply plays because he can run a bit, and put in home half decent tackles/blocks. To be honest even players like Tommy Oar and Robbie Kruse make players of this ilk out to be bluffers. Australia has gone backwards in term of producing players who can play at the top level imparticually technical ability, noone can deny this. 

oh yes they will and you wait for it lol.......
Also Dukes was useless because his scoring stats for the NT was nothing to what it should be, and that the crop you mention didn't have the competition to make top leagues like today.
There will be alot more, plenty of analysis paralysis, and we have the best coach voted in a rag re the QWC making the R16.
I agree we have a pack grafters no more no less who thankfully listen and play to instruction keeping shape and park the bus then venture only when you can control the ball long enough before pumping up for the counter and jag a goal that even today we struggle to have developed a regular goal scorer alike to Cahill.

Sorry, but the game has moved on.

The GG have been superseded by the Qatar Socceroos.

You are wrong, wrong, wrong. Can't you see that having an international team with  possibly the lowest  representation of Big Five  players at the last Qatar WC means other factors have been at play to enable the team to succeed?

I'm not going to go into them in depth, but  the limited technical skills, relative to others, the Socceroos had in Qatar, meant  quality coaching - utilisation of four main moments, Ball Possession and Ball Possession Opposition game plans for the three thirds of the pitch, incremental  development to play national formations  from age 12 onwards, training routines based on sophisticated  game based match analysis pro formas, etc, etc, has worked. Even if the most of the current  Socceroos haven't been inculcated in the technical aspects of the new curriculum, they have had a lot of the tactical  and structural training.

The likes of Bos, Circati, Yazbek, Hollman,  etc, have been inculcated in the newer Aus curriculum technically - and they have a higher level of skill than previous generations. Arnie has enunciated this.

I'm a trained semi- pro/pro coach, like many others on here in the past, and have been part of the Football Aus youth devpt system. Plus I've been a NPL club Tech Director, so I've had insights into  the old coach education system, prior to 2006,  and subsequently have been trained  in the overhaul of the Aus football curriculum. I even coached one of the  current Socceroos for a while. 

If the curriculum hadn't been a success, we wouldn't have qualified or WCs in 2018 and 2022. Plus the new curriculum  is having a positive effect on the Aus women's game. All the  former GG players casting aspersions on the changed curriculum, have been proved wrong. They've had nothing to proffer as an alternative - I don't think they realise ( mainly the ones who've pursued coach education overseas, namely England) that Aus coach education is based on France, Spain, Netherlands and Germany.

The only GG Socceroos who IMO would make the current Socceroos based on the careers they had, would be Kewell as Left Winger, Bresc as an attacking mid and Cahill as central striker. Maybe Neill would push  for a CB spot and Emo as RW? This is no matter where they played their club football - then.

The Aus National Curriculum was written by Han Berger - an esteemed Dutch coach in their renowned Eredivisie. He is  not a nobody.

I've always recognised that Dukes was a good club player.

However, as a central striker in 44 games for the Socceroos, Dukes scored only 11 goals. This is an irrefutable fact.  Go back in the Socceroo thread showing previous games and view Viduka's performances for the Socceroos. He missed a lot of goals - and at other times failed to create chances-  like Cahill did so well at international level. Plus Dukes didn't defend like Duke, Maclaren and Borrello do now. 

A return of only 25% scoring rate per game played for a star striker is atrocious. A good scoring rate is considered 50%. Cahill achieved this over an extended period playing international football;.



This thread has clearly demonstrated that UEFA national teams appear to need a lot of Big Five players to have success in international football - a minimum of 17 like Croatia and Switzerland. 

It has shown a number of African teams have had  decent numbers of Big Five players playing football, 9-12, but some have had limited success, like a number of UEFA international teams. Morocco with only 6 Big Five players excelled at the WC in Qatar WC making the semis.

Brazil and Argentina have big numbers of Big Five players, but would they still be successful even if they didn't have them? Uruguay has 8.

The thread has demonstrated that Asian and North American teams don't need the same numbers  of  UEFA Big Five players to  have a modicum of international success.

The data provided  is irrefutable.

 

This is one of the worst comments I've ever read on this page. 

The average quality of players in top 5 league has risen exponentially with access to players all around the world and not predominantly from South America and Europe. To use Jacob Farrell; a running left back (who is also a very good player btw) for your argument for the lack of technique in the newer generation is WILD and void. Volpato is better technically than almost (arguably) every player in that GG team and has played like 20 games in a top 5 league at age 20. These players are making it to Europe at younger ages than previously before and starting to have real impact. Irankunda has better footballing physical attributes than everyone in that team. Since the academies were formed we've seen a constant improvement in technical ability since the 2010's. Kruse could barely kick a ball. 

The game has evolved a lot since the GG. Look, they were good for their time and had their moments, but didn't set the world on fire like a real golden generation e.g Belgium in the past 10 years. They're labelled a golden generation relative to what came before them and immediately after them but football was broke in Australia so producing players like these again after the fact was unfair when every other nation is organically improving. This U23 Olyroos team at full strength we will have this year would rip to pieces any other U23 team we've ever had. Not to mention the 2005 born U20 team is punching well above their weight against top nations in the world. This next class of 2007-09 born Joeys is also set to be very good and technically profound for their ages.

I assume you are basing this opinion off the last 15 years of struggles and yes the teams have been technically impaired. But I also assume you don't watch the age-group teams or follow the young players because you've used Jacob Farrell as an example of the lack of technicality. We have the most U23's players playing in the A-League this year, many of them starting even. Lots of U20's and U17's playing too. That's literal proof right in front of you that there are more and more technically proficient players being produced and a percentage of them will be good enough for Europe in a few years. Remember, this process of academies producing talent is only just starting to reap the rewards, in 5 years I expect us to really be able to see the difference it has made as the A-League discovers it true purpose as a development league. 

You just made up these claims based on your biased opinion because you have completed some stupid coaching course purely designed for making money.

"The likes of Bos, Circati, Yazbek, Hollman,  etc, have been inculcated in the newer Aus curriculum technically - and they have a higher level of skill than previous generations. Arnie has enunciated this." - What proof do you have for this? None you're just making it up to suit your narrative. In my view Bos is hopeless technically purely just a good athlete. Honestly Behich should be starting at the Asia cup and trust me we will all be calling for that by the end. Circati no idea because I don't watch Serie B. Yazbek was poor in the A- league and now plays in Norway, enough said. Hollman scored one good goal last week, and now his better than all our legends of the game. You have to get a fucking grip brother. Your FFA buttfuckery is ridiculous.

Also, Han Berger had some coaching success in the late 70s before doing nothing or failing for 20 years before writing the stupid curriculum. I find it hilarious that someone would treat a stupid document about football written by a no one as their bible. To claim Mitch Duke was better at any facet of the game the Mark Viduka is a farce. Mitch Duke was only given a shot in the Socceroo's because he was Arnie's mate (end of story), whilst he has done ok when his been there, he never at all earned it. So maybe that's what the national curriculum really teaches, nepotisim in Australia football. God knows Han Berger was an expert at the, just have to look at his own son.

Honestly mate your delusional and a large part of the reason why we are a terrible footballing nation at the moment for developing players.
. Not a single player in a top 4 league
. National team that plays super defensive and relies on Scottish born internationals in key positions. 

No again like the other guy your making claims backed up with no evidence to support your story.  
"Volpato is better technically than almost (arguably) every player in that GG team and has played like 20 games in a top 5 league at age 20. These players are making it to Europe at younger ages than previously before and starting to have real impact. Irankunda has better footballing physical attributes than everyone in that team." - How would you know this, his played 20 games, most off the bench. Also please name one young A- league players who has made an impact in Europe. As for Irankunda, the kid as a powerful shot and can cut a ball back, other than that his game is pretty flawed technically. I'm actually in disbelief that you would claim Irankunda is better technically then Kruse. Trust me Irankunda will never reach the height of playing for Leverkusen first team.      

Rose tinted view of the technical skills of some of the players from the Golden gen. Some great players clearly but only a handful were really that technical. 

And look at players like bresciano, great player with skill but now called a dead-ball specialist. I cannot remember him scoring a single freekick for Australia. I remember him hitting the bar against argentina and also going close in a WC game. 

Thanks for piquing my interest. Apparently Bresc scored a free kick against New Zealand in Adelaide 29 May 2004 in a 1 - 0 win for us. It seems the only free kick he scored from, so not a great return.

Here we go again!

Comparing the quality of our players from 15 to 20 years ago is unrealistic, it was a different era back then but now the landscape is alot more competitive than its probably ever been for players wanting to play in the top 5 leagues.

Its true we have regressed but we are coming back up again (although slowly).

The young talent coming through in the last couple of years for me are technically the most proficient generation of players I have seen since the GG, of course alot has to do with the curriculum and the academy pathways it was always going to take time for it to bed in but how far they can go in the future we will find out in due course.

Coaches wise we got our best batch of coaches perhaps ever although I immensely respected the coaches from the past the current guys have the experience of playing overseas and studying from the best too.

Im sure there was worser eras such as after 2006 to say 2013 which I felt our weakest generation of players and coaches but we are doing not that bad these days and im sure there is more improvement to come too! 

The only context is the environment globally for players and even for coaches is alot more competitive than its ever been, just see how globalised the premier league has become its quite remarkable how much has changed since the late 90s and early 2000s.
How do we keep up is the key question.