notorganic
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batfink wrote:notorganic wrote:And still, more people are (rightly) scared of an Abbott led government but haven't you been stating that it's not the leader but the party and it's politics?? Actually I've been saying that it's the electorate and its ability (or lack thereof) to make sound voting decisions based on literacy over populism. Fear of Abbott is justified. batfink wrote:i'd much prefer a turnbull led coalition, especially over the joke we have now This is something we can agree on. Edited by notorganic: 14/2/2012 10:53:41 AM
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batfink
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notorganic wrote:And still, more people are (rightly) scared of an Abbott led government alot of this is to do with media manipulation, they say you can't polish a turd, but they did an excellent job with Gillard , so anything is possible
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batfink
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notorganic wrote:And still, more people are (rightly) scared of an Abbott led government but haven't you been stating that it's not the leader but the party and it's politics?? i'd much prefer a turnbull led coalition, especially over the joke we have now
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notorganic
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And still, more people are (rightly) scared of an Abbott led government
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batfink
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did anyone catch the recent news about the downfall of RUDD as PM by our illustrious leader last night, and confirmation by several of Gillards own ministers that she lied about the events leading upto the incident and continues to lie to the Australian public??? was interesting viewing, just to see her squirm......and it looks like the media and Labor are documenting the fall of Gillard, so who will be the new PM this march??? RUDD?? Shorten?? Smith?? Swann?? LOL.... it's like a 3 ring circus, or has bruce hawker got an ace up his sleave??
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batfink
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notorganic wrote:Reedy wrote:Oh sorry, that was my bad, I got really drunk last night and forgot that I actually hate discussing politics, generally because people tend to tell you that they aren't prepared to take your viewpoint seriously when it doesn't match theirs. I don't think I explicitly said I support Labor, I just think people are quick to hang shit on them lately, that's all I wanted to say. Anyway, don't worry, I don't care, carry on.. Nah mate, you said something in defense of the ranga. You're clearly a LABOR GIMP. LOL.....[-x
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RJL25
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Without wanting to wade into this too much, I would just add that the ACTUAL reason we where kept out of the major fallout of the GFC was our banks.
The GFC was a crisis that afflicted the global banking sector, which then had a flow on effect through global economies.
Our banks are the strongest in the world, now this means that us Australian's get crewed up the arse with the highest interest rates and charges in the world, but it ALSO meant that our banks where the only ones that came out of the GFC with barely a mark on them, which propped up the Australian economy compared to the rest of the globes economy.
It was this reason, combined with the usual strengths in our ties with China, plus our lack of foreign debt, meant that we effectively sailed through the GFC with relative ease barring poor consumer sentiment.
The stimulus packages from the Federal Government made everyone feel good, but in a pure economic sense, made absolutely no difference at all to how our economy faired during the GFC.
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Mr
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Joffa wrote:Quote:Labor does a huge number on Joe Hockey by: Laurie Oakes From: The Daily Telegraph February 11, 2012 SHADOW Treasurer Joe Hockey has been whacked around the head this week for denying he ever admitted a Coalition government would have to slash existing programs by $70 billion to meet its own spending commitments. This figure, of course, is the basis of claims by Julia Gillard and Wayne Swan of "a $70 billion Budget black hole" if Tony Abbott's team wins the next election. It has been repeated so often it is widely regarded as fact. How the figure got into the public domain and became an albatross around Hockey's neck is an interesting story -- one that shows vividly what a devious game politics can be. In August last year, as the Coalition's expenditure review committee looked for potential savings, there was a leak. A news report claimed that documents from the so-called "razor gang" revealed a warning by Hockey that $70 billion needed to be found. In fact, well-placed sources say, the documents did not contain an overall savings target at all. Hockey provided it to shadow ministers when he spoke to them in person. And -- here's the devious bit -- he gave each of his colleagues a different figure. The reason? So that if there was a leak he would know where it came from. The $70 billion leak immediately pinged the leaker. But it also left Hockey with the problem that now plagues him. "I've never said $70 billion," Hockey told a radio interviewer on Wednesday. But he did say it -- to one member of the shadow cabinet. And that was enough. On the day of the leak, the shadow treasurer was seen as fudging when he spoke of the need to find "50, 60 or 70 billion". A month later he said: "The number is not $70 billion". But the figure stuck. And what was seen as his attempt to walk away from it helped the government to go on the attack over economic management when parliament resumed on Tuesday. It was economic management, hammered by Labor in the final week of the campaign, that helped the government cling on to power in the 2010 election. But it has since had difficulty winning the public debate, despite its success in cushioning Australia from the global financial crisis and a record that earns wide praise overseas. Take taxation. Abbott gets traction when he proclaims that "the Labor Party believes in higher taxes" while the Coalition stands for low taxes. The truth is that taxation as a proportion of the economy is lower now than it was under John Howard's government. The tax-to-GDP ratio, 23.7 per cent when Labor came to office, is now 21.2 per cent. According to figures that came across my desk yesterday, had the ratio remained at the 2007-08 level that Labor inherited, tax receipts would have been $21.4 billion higher in 2012-13 than projected. Returning the budget to surplus would not be an issue. The government would not only be looking at a surplus of $22.9 billion next financial year, but would have been back in the black by more than $3 billion in 2010-11. The opposition's approach to the economic debate is one of all care and no responsibility, and it has been pretty effective. The impact of the GFC is airbrushed out. The government is accused of failing on unemployment, even though Australia's jobless rate has increased by only 0.7 per cent since Labor came to power, compared with 3.1 per cent in Britain and 3.6 per cent in the US in the same period. Even when the Reserve Bank keeps interest rates on hold because it expects relatively healthy growth to continue, Coalition spokesmen portray the decision as cause for gloom and doom. But, to some extent at least, the tables were turned this week as the Prime Minister and the Treasurer went all-out to make economic management the central issue. Abbott, with typical bravado -- "Come on, make my day" -- had claimed this is what he wanted, but in parliament he seemed remarkably keen to divert attention to other matters. Gillard and Swan were able to seriously undermine Coalition credibility on the economy by exploiting the apparent backsliding over the $70 billion and a surprising reluctance by Abbott and other frontbenchers to pledge a budget surplus in the first term of a Liberal-National Party government. "Well, it just depends," said shadow finance minister Andrew Robb when asked about the surplus. You don't get much weaker than that. The Coalition seemed to be saying that a quick return to surplus -- like a national disability insurance scheme and Medicare-funded dentistry -- was an aspiration rather than an undertaking. It was a gift for Gillard. She suddenly made delivery of a budget surplus a firm pledge rather than a mere intention. "We will do it." And Hockey's denials over the $70 billion figure were used to bolster the narrative of a Coalition confused over the economy and retreating from fiscal discipline. A bum rap, perhaps. Hockey has told colleagues that no matter how big the savings task, he is up for it and has no doubt it can be achieved. But a Coalition that has made such an art form of outrageous statements on the economy is in no position to complain. Laurie Oakes is political editor for the Nine Network. His column appears every Saturday in The Daily Telegraph http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/labor-does-a-huge-number-on-joe-hockey/story-e6frezz0-1226268310985 Where did the leak spring from?
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notorganic
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Reedy wrote:Oh sorry, that was my bad, I got really drunk last night and forgot that I actually hate discussing politics, generally because people tend to tell you that they aren't prepared to take your viewpoint seriously when it doesn't match theirs. I don't think I explicitly said I support Labor, I just think people are quick to hang shit on them lately, that's all I wanted to say. Anyway, don't worry, I don't care, carry on.. Nah mate, you said something in defense of the ranga. You're clearly a LABOR GIMP.
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Reedy
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Oh sorry, that was my bad, I got really drunk last night and forgot that I actually hate discussing politics, generally because people tend to tell you that they aren't prepared to take your viewpoint seriously when it doesn't match theirs. I don't think I explicitly said I support Labor, I just think people are quick to hang shit on them lately, that's all I wanted to say. Anyway, don't worry, I don't care, carry on..
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batfink
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Reedy wrote:Wow, I really should come into "Extra Time" a bit more... this is the first time I've stumbled across here for months.. really enjoyed reading the conversation.. I am not a fan of taking sides politically, I'm a fan of logic and backing a party enacting correct policies, I think party politics have become largely centralised anyway and that it doesn't matter too much who is in power. However, I have largely been defending Labor policies for the last few months. The main reason I have for this is that most reasons I hear against Labor are that "Err, they are lead by a red headed bitch" and "she is a dumb bitch" etc etc. In other words, the people criticising her have no idea, 100% of the people I challenged their views on who espoused this type of opinion had no intelligent reaction, and I feel the need to play devil's advocate in order to keep some sort of balance. Therefore it is refreshing to come onto a forum which I frequent and find opinions stated with at least some sort of reason to guide them.. thank you for that. I'm drawn largely to notorganic's arguments.. Labor have made some stupid decisions, much like any government in Australian history, but can you honestly single them out as being significantly worse than other governments? I don't have the experience of living through other governments regimes (and just because I don't have experience, doesn't mean my opinion is invalid, I still feel that as a university educated individual, my capacity to reason is somewhat valid.. yes that sounds like a giant wank, I don't care..) but does anyone remember how cut everyone was when the GST was introduced by the Howard government? ("Err, NZ's GST is over 20%, Australia is fucked") ("Errr.. other countries economies have been ruined by a GST) and look at Australia now? To steal the words of Neville Bartos.. "We're flyyyying!" hard to take you seriously, the arguement that most people avoid in this thread is that Labor are incompetent, they may have reasonable policies, but are completely incapable of executing them, theorists. You need to have a good look at the policy outcomes of this government and then mount a more informed and educated debate Edited by batfink: 13/2/2012 08:08:44 AM
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Reedy
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Wow, I really should come into "Extra Time" a bit more... this is the first time I've stumbled across here for months.. really enjoyed reading the conversation.. I am not a fan of taking sides politically, I'm a fan of logic and backing a party enacting correct policies, I think party politics have become largely centralised anyway and that it doesn't matter too much who is in power. However, I have largely been defending Labor policies for the last few months. The main reason I have for this is that most reasons I hear against Labor are that "Err, they are lead by a red headed bitch" and "she is a dumb bitch" etc etc. In other words, the people criticising her have no idea, 100% of the people I challenged their views on who espoused this type of opinion had no intelligent reaction, and I feel the need to play devil's advocate in order to keep some sort of balance. Therefore it is refreshing to come onto a forum which I frequent and find opinions stated with at least some sort of reason to guide them.. thank you for that. I'm drawn largely to notorganic's arguments.. Labor have made some stupid decisions, much like any government in Australian history, but can you honestly single them out as being significantly worse than other governments? I don't have the experience of living through other governments regimes (and just because I don't have experience, doesn't mean my opinion is invalid, I still feel that as a university educated individual, my capacity to reason is somewhat valid.. yes that sounds like a giant wank, I don't care..) but does anyone remember how cut everyone was when the GST was introduced by the Howard government? ("Err, NZ's GST is over 20%, Australia is fucked") ("Errr.. other countries economies have been ruined by a GST) and look at Australia now? To steal the words of Neville Bartos.. "We're flyyyying!"
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Joffa
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Quote:Labor does a huge number on Joe Hockey by: Laurie Oakes From: The Daily Telegraph February 11, 2012 SHADOW Treasurer Joe Hockey has been whacked around the head this week for denying he ever admitted a Coalition government would have to slash existing programs by $70 billion to meet its own spending commitments. This figure, of course, is the basis of claims by Julia Gillard and Wayne Swan of "a $70 billion Budget black hole" if Tony Abbott's team wins the next election. It has been repeated so often it is widely regarded as fact. How the figure got into the public domain and became an albatross around Hockey's neck is an interesting story -- one that shows vividly what a devious game politics can be. In August last year, as the Coalition's expenditure review committee looked for potential savings, there was a leak. A news report claimed that documents from the so-called "razor gang" revealed a warning by Hockey that $70 billion needed to be found. In fact, well-placed sources say, the documents did not contain an overall savings target at all. Hockey provided it to shadow ministers when he spoke to them in person. And -- here's the devious bit -- he gave each of his colleagues a different figure. The reason? So that if there was a leak he would know where it came from. The $70 billion leak immediately pinged the leaker. But it also left Hockey with the problem that now plagues him. "I've never said $70 billion," Hockey told a radio interviewer on Wednesday. But he did say it -- to one member of the shadow cabinet. And that was enough. On the day of the leak, the shadow treasurer was seen as fudging when he spoke of the need to find "50, 60 or 70 billion". A month later he said: "The number is not $70 billion". But the figure stuck. And what was seen as his attempt to walk away from it helped the government to go on the attack over economic management when parliament resumed on Tuesday. It was economic management, hammered by Labor in the final week of the campaign, that helped the government cling on to power in the 2010 election. But it has since had difficulty winning the public debate, despite its success in cushioning Australia from the global financial crisis and a record that earns wide praise overseas. Take taxation. Abbott gets traction when he proclaims that "the Labor Party believes in higher taxes" while the Coalition stands for low taxes. The truth is that taxation as a proportion of the economy is lower now than it was under John Howard's government. The tax-to-GDP ratio, 23.7 per cent when Labor came to office, is now 21.2 per cent. According to figures that came across my desk yesterday, had the ratio remained at the 2007-08 level that Labor inherited, tax receipts would have been $21.4 billion higher in 2012-13 than projected. Returning the budget to surplus would not be an issue. The government would not only be looking at a surplus of $22.9 billion next financial year, but would have been back in the black by more than $3 billion in 2010-11. The opposition's approach to the economic debate is one of all care and no responsibility, and it has been pretty effective. The impact of the GFC is airbrushed out. The government is accused of failing on unemployment, even though Australia's jobless rate has increased by only 0.7 per cent since Labor came to power, compared with 3.1 per cent in Britain and 3.6 per cent in the US in the same period. Even when the Reserve Bank keeps interest rates on hold because it expects relatively healthy growth to continue, Coalition spokesmen portray the decision as cause for gloom and doom. But, to some extent at least, the tables were turned this week as the Prime Minister and the Treasurer went all-out to make economic management the central issue. Abbott, with typical bravado -- "Come on, make my day" -- had claimed this is what he wanted, but in parliament he seemed remarkably keen to divert attention to other matters. Gillard and Swan were able to seriously undermine Coalition credibility on the economy by exploiting the apparent backsliding over the $70 billion and a surprising reluctance by Abbott and other frontbenchers to pledge a budget surplus in the first term of a Liberal-National Party government. "Well, it just depends," said shadow finance minister Andrew Robb when asked about the surplus. You don't get much weaker than that. The Coalition seemed to be saying that a quick return to surplus -- like a national disability insurance scheme and Medicare-funded dentistry -- was an aspiration rather than an undertaking. It was a gift for Gillard. She suddenly made delivery of a budget surplus a firm pledge rather than a mere intention. "We will do it." And Hockey's denials over the $70 billion figure were used to bolster the narrative of a Coalition confused over the economy and retreating from fiscal discipline. A bum rap, perhaps. Hockey has told colleagues that no matter how big the savings task, he is up for it and has no doubt it can be achieved. But a Coalition that has made such an art form of outrageous statements on the economy is in no position to complain. Laurie Oakes is political editor for the Nine Network. His column appears every Saturday in The Daily Telegraph http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/opinion/labor-does-a-huge-number-on-joe-hockey/story-e6frezz0-1226268310985
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f1worldchamp
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afromanGT wrote:Quote:If Rudd was dumped because of party opposition to the ETS, then what changed within Labor that now sees them support a price carbon? Oh that's right, the threat of losing power. on its own merit they're going to lose power anyway. It's a catch 22. My point is that what's best for the Australian people flies out the window when it comes to ensuring Labor remain in power by enacting a policy they don't want.
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afromanGT
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Quote:If Rudd was dumped because of party opposition to the ETS, then what changed within Labor that now sees them support a price carbon? Oh that's right, the threat of losing power. on its own merit they're going to lose power anyway. It's a catch 22.
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notorganic
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f1worldchamp wrote:Of all the possible examples, the carbon tax is exactly one of the policies that is designed to keep Labor in power. If they dump it the Greens will pull their support. That's why in the election campaign Gillard famously said 'there would be no carbon tax from any government I lead'. Before the hung parliment of course. If Rudd was dumped because of party opposition to the ETS, then what changed within Labor that now sees them support a price carbon? Oh that's right, the threat of losing power. I don't disagree with any of this.
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f1worldchamp
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Of all the possible examples, the carbon tax is exactly one of the policies that is designed to keep Labor in power. If they dump it the Greens will pull their support. That's why in the election campaign Gillard famously said 'there would be no carbon tax from any government I lead'. Before the hung parliment of course. If Rudd was dumped because of party opposition to the ETS, then what changed within Labor that now sees them support a price carbon? Oh that's right, the threat of losing power.
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afromanGT
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There was months of public backlash before it was voted through parliament as a bill.
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notorganic
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That came after the fact.
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afromanGT
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Except when they were facing public backlash for the idea...
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notorganic
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The ETS policy was largely the reason that Rudd won in 2007, and walking away from it was a large part of his downfall. It's entirely probably that Gillard & the ALP thought the Carbon Tax would be politically advantageous for them.
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afromanGT
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This 'step in the right direction for humanity' isn't 'doing everything they can to stay in office' and if anything will be the reason they get voted out.
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notorganic
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How so?
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afromanGT
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notorganic wrote:I consider Carbon Pricing to be a step in the right direction for humanity as a whole, I don't really care about individual parties. notorganic wrote:All politicians crave power and will do anything to gain/keep it. This is the nature of politics. This notion would contradict itself, wouldn't it?
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notorganic
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You can call it being condescending if you like. I call it being forced to state the bleeding obvious because it's clearly been overlooked.
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f1worldchamp
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notorganic wrote:f1worldchamp wrote:Gillards only motive seems to be to remain in power for as long as possible. I hate to break it to you sunshine, but this is not a mindset that is limited to Julia Gillard, or ALP politicians. All politicians crave power and will do anything to gain/keep it. This is the nature of politics. Thanks for the insight. And you wonder where the accusations of condescension come from.
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notorganic
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f1worldchamp wrote:Gillards only motive seems to be to remain in power for as long as possible. I hate to break it to you sunshine, but this is not a mindset that is limited to Julia Gillard, or ALP politicians. All politicians crave power and will do anything to gain/keep it. This is the nature of politics.
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f1worldchamp
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notorganic wrote:f1worldchamp wrote: sending us all a cheque for $900 doesn't count. Doesn't it? Why? It seems to have done a pretty good job of propping up the retail sector albeit temporarily. You can't ignore the positive things the ALP did to keep Australia as the best faring nation in the western world out of the 2008 GFC. Actually, I would argue that the state our economy was already in when Labor took office was the determining factor in Australia weathering the GFC as we did. Which positive things did Labor do? Were they responsible for the surplus that allowed Rudd to send out the cheques? Did they manufactuer the mining boom that was largely responsible? No and no. Quote:I consider Carbon Pricing to be a step in the right direction for humanity as a whole, I don't really care about individual parties.
If Abbott does the right thing and allows a conscience vote on Marriage Equality, this will also be a victory for humanity. Again, I don't care about individual parties. Neither of these are actually law. What ifs don't count. FWIW, I support a tax on polluters. The jury is still out on this particular version of it. Quote:As I linked to the thoughts of Neil deGrasse Tyson earlier in the thread, I don't believe that leadership is a crucial issue. Critical thinking and scientific literacy within voting populations are far more important. I don't see much of it (if any at all) in the anti-Gillard hyperbole. I don't agree. Leadership is the key issue. Setting a strong example for your party to follow. Too many Labor members look after their own interests. When they did have a leader with the will to get things done, i.e. Rudd, they got rid of him. Gillards only motive seems to be to remain in power for as long as possible and she's accomplished nothing of note. What example does that give to the rest of her party? It's the lack of leadership that's caused the problems.
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batfink
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f1worldchamp wrote:i think I missed something here. Every anti-Gillard or anti-Labor comment made here is instantly rebutted by you, yet you then insist you have no love for Labor. Out of interest, can you tell me one piece of policy that you consider to be a Labor victory since they took over from Howard? And sending us all a cheque for $900 doesn't count. this..... i didn't get a $900 cheque
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notorganic
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f1worldchamp wrote: sending us all a cheque for $900 doesn't count. Doesn't it? Why? It seems to have done a pretty good job of propping up the retail sector albeit temporarily. You can't ignore the positive things the ALP did to keep Australia as the best faring nation in the western world out of the 2008 GFC. I consider Carbon Pricing to be a step in the right direction for humanity as a whole, I don't really care about individual parties. If Abbott does the right thing and allows a conscience vote on Marriage Equality, this will also be a victory for humanity. Again, I don't care about individual parties. As I linked to the thoughts of Neil deGrasse Tyson earlier in the thread, I don't believe that leadership is a crucial issue. Critical thinking and scientific literacy within voting populations are far more important. I don't see much of it (if any at all) in the anti-Gillard hyperbole.
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