https://coffeeshopcasual.substack.com/p/a-brief-overview-japans-youth-systems?r=3wyoca&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&triedRedirect=true

main takeaway is their strategy to capture players missed by academies using a national high school tournament

always makes you wonder WHY we have never got some kind of plan set long ago eh.

I saw another article similar to this the other day as well, can't find it now.

Glancing through your link grazor I'm pasting this :.........
So how does the youth system operate then? Well, each A-League club has an academy, so too most NPL clubs; and whilst high school and university football does exist, it is of poor quality and largely irrelevant.

In bold is where I differ re poor quality.
Having had 2 sons playing Rep and obviously they played school comps selected in the 1sts by Yr's 7/8.
In the ISA/CIS comps and the finals are played at Valentines Sports Park (FNSW HQ) that are packed with spectators and huge atmosphere, the rivalries are typical football.
Near on every school team we vs'd have a qty of Rep players, some of the quality and standard was brilliant viewing from the sideline.
Irrelevant is a good question mind you - are scouts at many of the these normal round school comp games ? putting aside the Finals.

I agree with you LFC.

Literally just reffed a NSW regionals Combined High Schools tournament (under 19s) in Coffs that went for 3 days a few weeks back.

Standard of play was fantastic. Plenty of kids wandering around in their NPL and academy gear.

By the by Sydney Easts beat Hunter in the final for the lads.

Sydney North beat Hunter in the final for the girls.

2 sides were picked for the nationals. NSW A and NSW B. Sydney and Newcastle teams dominated selections.

One of the teams had about 8 players from the one school. Have a quick scroll though this page to the 'Notable Alumni' to see the sort of quality they're pumping out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westfields_Sports_High_School#Notable_alumni 

ah kudos doing the reffing to mate.....
You definately enjoy it (not sure your wife likes you being so occupied :)) for even me as a spectator the school comps are great fun attending.

Wow just looked up that link - set up sports school originally linked to the AIS ! spotting out future prospects.
I see alot of NPL/AL players of the past went to that school, recently retired Vuka !/Brosquey/Bridge/Carney for eg.
Then check the AIS Scholarships - HK, Culina, Beauchamp to name a few.
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/30739398/2007-prospectus-westfields-sports-high-school

You mentioned Regionals, why in the end Sydney North/East ? just to understand.

You know what, hence why I post when Grazer and others go on about development/prospects etcetc....and our on going pyrimad bottle necks and lacking.
When you see all this school talent - and yer at those ages many get into Rep, the question is WHY why so many opted out once coming to Snrs.
Believe me I have seen so many talented kids as good as people go on about Irankunda/Kuol's - the touch/turn/vision and go F it I'm sic of the BS in the system.
The amount of good football in Association Prem1 today (talking Sydney north where I am surely must be similar everywhere else) is full of dejected ex NPL players.
Sure some may have ended up not good enough but so many got sic of the politics, work/sacrifice your butt off for what ? who could have walked into a AL Club.

Not enough Pro Clubs and comps and more so a working vision that everyone knows from the FA down, like Japan or most places, have everyone on the same page.
Clean up the barriers, the State Feds for one get their heads banged together to work as 1 - are schools in scouting schedules etcetc...

Anyway good post Muz, that school is a AIS on its own.

Not sure mate. I'm not that involved. Just happened to put my hand up when I heard they were in our area and ended up doing 8 matches.

I did DOGSO a kid from the team that won it the year before on the first day. They didn't suspend him because they double for selection trials and it was a footballing challenge. They asked me if I objected and I said 'it's your tournament'. To be fair the kid left the field without incident and it was a genuine attempt to get the ball so I was OK with that.

The boys final was probably played in front of 400 people.

Had a blast being up that close and personal to so much talent. At that level they just run so much, are super aggressive and fast. Great first touches and lots of composure.

It blows my mind when I see this sort of talent why we aren't better on the international stage.

Besides a 100 other reasons I tend to lean towards not enough pro contracts. If you're an apprentice chippy are you going to risk a snapped ankle and be out of work for 3 months because you're getting $200 a win? (And you're training 3 nights a week.)

Short answer is too many board rooms not enough action.
That being said, for all of Japan's structure and planning, they haven't performed much better than Australia at the WC. Sure, they tend to lead the pack when it comes to qualification, but at the actual WC they haven't reached any level higher than Australia has. Which has to be incredibly frustrating for them, but also makes us think that if we had Japan's structure and planning, could we actually have genuine shot at a WC.

https://us.soccerway.com/players/players_abroad/japan/
Look at the players abroad around the leagues be it top flight to down, amazing.
Granted current population 122,689,759.
Many in top flights leagues as we know and abundance 1 level lower.
IMO that is bar not WC performance's for barring the exceptions its kind of lottery at times, the draws - hard getting individuals to play together over 3/4wks every 4yrs.

I agree about us as mentioned so many times, we punch above our weight.
What we could be is always the trillion $ question due to our ongoing infighting from FA/Feds etcetc....and going it alone.

As Muz mentions like many of us see, we have alot of very promising talent but we can't service it !

Yer Muz, I've watched many games at those levels - I actually think some are better games than the pro's tbh, at that age they have so much gas in their tanks, speed, lots of skill its there, we lose so so many of them for they need to make a buck, correct.

Good to hear school level football is good! Wonder how hard it would be to have a roc estedford style national school comp each year?

yer true that would be pretty good BUT I know many NPL Clubs wouldn't like it depending when held.
We had trouble every Saturday making both games - had pressure from both sides god damn it, you HAVE to play for school, NPL was you can't afford injury, if your late your benched yaddayadda - school typically its also a huge badge of honour, rep its all about your our player and no one elses kind of vibe.
I'm not sure there is a National comp arranged, there is X Interstate comps/Cups schools can enter - boys went a couple of times to Briz.
This ISA/CIS comp covered alot of Sydney - so very metro.

Would have to have make the state based cup winners all play eachother.
Then, they also exist at different formats too.

School I went to was a Catholic school in rural NSW - so, our comps were the Bill Turner Cup (U15? I believe it was - It was essentially Grades 7, 8 and 9) which was open to all schools, and then the Open team would play in the CCC (Can't remember what it stands for, but essentially a Catholic College Competition - maybe that's the CCC?) events, which was not open to all schools. I don't believe we ever entered a competition where we played other non-Catholic schools.

I could be wrong but I cant remember who said it but they mentioned that Japan have a different system to most westernised countries where from grassroots to high school where is no elitist pathway and any kid at a young age focus on technique and touch they also get a-lot of their inspiration from Brazil whom they have great relationship with. 

It seems like they wanted to grow the sport where baseball was king and it seems it still is but they had to create a strong football culture from the ground up because they didn't have a strong football culture historically so I think is the reason why they have a big player pool today is to facilitate not only pro football but also at high school and university football which is apparently equally competitive and therefore have grown the sport to the point where its competing with baseball.

I also remember they created a 100 year plan which was to build the pyramid and help win a World Cup and they look to closer to it than ever before, the power of long term planning.

The key for us is they don't do elite vs the rest like over in Europe, they give anyone a chance to get the skills to play the game and find their passion through that and therefore build up that football culture whilst having a large focus on technique and touch through good coaching and education.
Can it be replicated here? I don't think so culturally we are so different to them plus we dont have a culture like over in Japan where high school and university sport culture is so prevalent plus our football culture influence we get mainly from the egg ball codes plus from the UK due to the countries heritage.

We better off learning from them rather than copying and pasting from them as each country and region is different.

It would be nice with some knowledge on Japanese football to give us a takedown on it.

I think in England and Germany (France etc....) if you're 16, 17 and 18 you're willing to risk a snapped ankle given the massive riches if you can actually make it AND you can make a living playing football even at lower levels.

You're only a a season away from being noticed and quadrupling (or more) your wages effectively overnight. 

Young bloke here on $200 a win might get poached to play for $300 a win. Where's the incentive?

Bill Turner cup is still going.

Unfortunately there's no one catch all tournament. The public schools play in their comp and the Independent schools play in theirs. More's the pity because that comp would go off.

Because I work from home and have my own business I do quite a few of these school games locally particularly in the preliminary stages before they inevitably end up in Sydney.

As for quality, a team from the local school here (an independent) just thumped Trinity Grammar from Sydney (after beating a Newcastle team a fortnight before) and are now in the final 4 of the state for Independent schools. That Trinity mob flew up here in the morning from Sydney, played and lost (sucked in) and flew back that arvo. (Nice to have plenty of cash.)

Meanwhile the selectors at the Combined High Schools tournament didn't have the cash for a set of independent selectors so they had a panel of coaches from the teams attending. Can imagine that could/would cause a few dramas. 

Will just add it makes me laugh when you see, and I'm generalising here, old blokes (usually bitters) on FB going off on how the NC is producing nothing but robots that all play in a certain way.

Nothing could be further from the truth. (To my uneducated eye.)

And also, all different sizes for these kids. They're definitely not picking big units that can run all day like you constantly read. Both players of the tournament (boys and girls) for the Combined High Schools state championships were both smaller than average. 

Muz, ok I hear you re robot comments i'll ignore the bitters for I am near the vintage or description depending who (young one) but here's the thing from your naked eye re the School Comp gig/s state of play.
As mentioned prior the schools its all about badge of honour and also managed by the background of the school TD or sports master. (they are not the typical curriculum types)
Where we were involved/school (yes a catholic Independant) the long time sports master was/is a passionate ex pat UK bloke I got to know well and also playing for a long time in my local association 035/45's.
He wasn't into any of the NPL/academy/AL state of play, pass back pass sideways, sit back reset its was go go go full on, he encouraged the kids to play their natural game full stop period even though hollering out instructions.
Therefore "individulism" comes into play.
It was awesum to watch being we were in the Rep system for so long.
My kids luved playing for school due to its freedoms and I'm sure not the only ones.
Hence why your seeing great play, most if not all the sports coachs just want them to go for it, they knew they had/have good quality players.

Talk of Grammer or any of those huge money full on private schools yer its mind boggling $$$$, traditionally rugga backgrounds for most obviously football later introduced and growing like mad, I expect the private school bastion bitters would be hating it lol......
NCB - yer the comp is the CIS pretty much most mid level Independant Catholic, throw in those mega private schools.
We used to play Cranebrook @ Rose Bay, I used to drop my jaw first times being there, 5 odd pristine ovals, a first aid support at the building in front of the fields like being in a hospital emergency ward ffs, got every bloody thing you could think of - nearly 40k p/a says it all ! 

Anyway, school football needs to be watched over by the FA or connect with it for there would be plenty who are not in the usual Rep systems.

Hey Muz, assuming I am one of your bitters, as LFC mentioned none of these school kids are coached in the Dutch NC ... Also, you are surprisingly quiet on the exorbitant school fees parents of non football playing students are paying to these schools to fund a soccer program for the first eleven to participate in these tournaments ...

1) the nc is not dutch. Have you done knvb and compared some dutch sample sessions to ours? It was invented by a dutch person but is a different system
2) even if you do a miniroos free course you are getting some national curriculum philosophy and content

If they are coached using sessions where people are given lots of touches in small sided games which replicate match situations and kids are getting 600 touches a session or more then it is achieving most of what the nc sought to achieve

Ill take your word for it mate.... 

Will you tho? Or will we hear more irrational rage at the dutch turning people into robots because little 9 year old timmy isnt spending half the training doing pushups and laps followed by a 11v11 game like things were when I played youth football ;)

Well I certainly won't count how many times he touches the ball during a training session and then go on to measure his height against a wall chart. hahahahah Sorry not having a go but you dont really seem to grasp my antagonism of the NC....  I dont think it turns ANYONE into a robot, I dont think any of the drills or methodologies used  are inherently wrong in ANY way shape or form... what I DISLIKE is the fact that we have to have an overarching curriculum in the first place.... It is a forum full of opinions after all yeah... Happy for people to preach from the FA hymnbook if they are true believers (although I suspect alot of the times it is more about the cultural battle between old soccer and new football, especially on here)  but I personally dont see any value in every single player in Australia being taught to play in the same structural way, in fact I see it as counterproductive to what I deem successful football nations do...  

Which schools? 

The combined high schools championships I was at were all from public schools. 

As for parents cross subsidising students to play in private schools that's a weird comment. Rowing, rugby and dressage are OK to subsidise but not football? What do I care if they're paying some of their hard earned towards a football program. 

When did I say they're all coached in the Dutch NC? I said it makes me laugh when old bitters say the NC is doing nothing but producing robots. As we've just been talking about there's kids playing football at all levels and formats. Private and public schools, NPL, academy and grassroots football. All under different coaches and styles.  This sweeping generalisation that 'they're all robots' is bullshit.

The coach of Hunter in the combined high schools tournament was a former player for Sydney Croatia.  And assistant coach for Adamstown in the NPL.  Is he producing 'robots'.

Is every coach in the NPL producing 'robots ' too?

Ok let's focus on this 

in the 90s I played football in Cairns at a club as a kid. I was 6 when I started and 13 when I finished but stayed as a fan. So lets just focus on the 5-13 year old period which is the most important period for technical development, the period I have experience playing and coaching in (though not too much) before and after the nc. Most people I know had very similar experiences. We turn up and do 50 pushups, situps, laps around the oval. We stand in lines to take pens one at a time, most of us standing around, we then line up where we have to take the another player on one at a time with most people standing around, we then play a match.

Now compare that to the sample sessions here (you get more if you do the courses and the miniroos course is free, but the higher level courses cost a lot)

https://www.footballaustralia.com.au/sites/ffa/files/2017-09/FFA%20National%20Curriculum_1ma6qrmro1pyq10gzxo5rcn7ld.pdf

Just focus on the 5-13 eras which are the game discovery eras and the skills acquisition eras - the most important age periods for developing a passion for the game as well as technique. All the games are fun, they teach decision making, skills and technique, they cause the kids to have zillions of touches of the ball. No one is counting touches or measuring kids height, everything is simple and age appropriate. The theory behind the exercizes can be technical but the drills are age appropriate and fun and you don't need to count the number of touches a kid makes. None of those drills are telling players there is one way to play and they seem to encourage rather than stifle creativity. Yes it is true that in the 13-17 window you learn 4-3-3 possession football. However, if you got a coaching liscence in portrugal or france and want to do something slightly different at your local club I doubt fa cops are putting you behind bars. 

Anyway, lets get to the main point. For all I know, south melbourne had fantastic youth development in that era, good for them! But my experience seems to be the experience of most people who played in that era. When the NTC came out, there were a bunch of youth coaches on this forum defending exercizes where people are lining up one at a time taking a player on. If you dig back far enough in the performance section you can probably still find them. It is an absolute fact that this area of our development was backwards back then.

Now given that is the reality of how backward we were, if we put you in charge of fixing that, how would you do it WITHOUT a national curriculum (assume everything else stays the same. We still ignore the crawford report, we still have a closed shop a league, no nst until 2025 because I'm guessing we mostly agree on other issues anyway)

You dont want my answer Grazor... 

Muzzie, Im NOT saying they are producing robots dude... sheeesh. My crack about private school fees was just that, a crack about the fact the soccer, at any level, is too expensive...  not just wog clubs wanting to fleece parents so that they can sit around and eat pumpkin seeds, glorify their foreign ancestors and watch their overpaid players win ethnic battles against their "enemies" here .... 

Hahahaah you people are truly twisted..... Ill keep typing.... 

Do we have another phantom editor in the background running around..?

I mean if you are getting edited, my guess is you are either making it about another poster (why? He hasn't even posted in this thread. Try buying him a drink if you are that obsessed!) or went ad hominen (again why? at most we have exchanged banter. But we also all want football to succeed and I'm guessing we agree on most topics apart from this anyway)

anyway keep on topic, if you want to rage about another poster (including me) make an extra time thread

Incidentally, England have a national curriculum. It is similar with some differences (I highlight them in the performance thread), you have a free course with sample sessions which have lots of drills with balls at the feet and ways to modify mini matches to focus on mastering some skill. The sessions are the same as what youth coaches are teaching my kids. If you go up in youth coaching you have to pay once you go beyond the grassroots course. 

Is there a 1st world country that is a football nation without a national curriculum? I'd be happy to learn what they do if there are alternatives. I'm sure nsl academies had some great coaching, but for the average grass roots coach it is chalk and cheese compared to 30 years ago and we just seem to be following what other top countries do with a minor spin on things (imitating france, spain and belgium more than knvb)

Surely that clown doesn't still have mod privileges.

I just clicked on his old profile name (the greyed out one at the bottom of Aus football) and it says 'last active: 4 hours ago'.

WTF?! 

NCB interesting your youth experience through your era that I find quite opposite to mine.
Lets go further back, back in my day, I went to a Gov school, we played the Tasman Cup as it was called back then.
There was no issue if you were a Rep player back then.
I can't really recall how many games but that it was but a inter school comp.

My local Club down the road from home was one of the stronger Clubs of the Association those days, 70/80's.
From U10 on you had Dads as gaffas and some were ex players or in the know of the game.
This was Club Div1.
Some of them ended up being Rep coachs through those formative years.
Now our training back then, yep fitness was an objective, we actually started by doing 10laps of the 2oval reserve.
I never minded that for fitness isone key of the game, even running single file last man would sprint to the front and repeat.
We used alot of ball, juggling, trapping, heading practice And shooting prac obviously great for the keeper as well.
Alot of forwards/mids vs the defense/keeper plays - in today called small sided games with purpose looking for a finish !
We played out set plays, corner set plays.
Then there would be a half pitch game to end proceedings, with 2 squads again you could say small sided game for thats 11 or more a side.
Alot of one touch/control/and moving for another hole.
It was on like mad and I luved it, the competition was rife.
I think it showed why we won the comp 5yrs on bounce, 2yrs undefeated, Champions of Champs obviously being Prem winners.
Wow in between the above there was the introduction of the Association 6ASide comp as well.
In amongst the local Club goings on many of us were selected for Rep since about U11/12's onwards.
That was another 2 nights training that my ol man was struggling to make on time those days.
Far more intense training, 1v1, dribbling,ball control,6v6,beat 2 players shoot, back to the goal turn control cross shoot - not much re fitness for most done in Club training.
Rep was great and another level naturally playing all over Sydney.
Therefore compared to your experience I feel mine has similar traits to today but maybe not as polished.
I was in awe of some players I played with, so many imo could have gone way up, ala NSL +, typical of Aus many liked and were good at cricket, or surfing as well and didn't care to go higher.
A problem still to this day living in the Land Of Oz.

PS. I agree, whoever deleted previous posts be it in another thread or here is WRONG, for I know one of mine vanished as well.

True. There wouldn't.

The NC isn't prescriptive in any case.

I wouldn't hesitate to guess that 90% of the embittered old blokes complaining about the NC who bleat endlessly about 'the NC producing robots' have never read the NC.

It's a great resource for any coach, particularly a grassroots noob. Any other coach that knows their stuff can use it as a starting point and modify it as they see fit.

Are people suggesting there are NC FA policeman checking every club in Australia for compliance?