The very old saying every cloud has a silver lining.

The errors of the past management of the APL are well stated and recorded. The result  as well all know, is a huge reduction in funding from the broadcast deal.

What this will do is force clubs to change the way they operate.

The Mariners have always sold players to stay afloat, more recently so have Adelaide.

JJ has spoke at length about clubs needing to develop transfer fees as a regular part of their operating model.

Two things I think will emerge, all clubs will start to play younger players which will be slightly cheaper, but if each club developed one player per year who was sold overseas and we had 14 clubs.

That is 14 players, off to Europe, Japan, MLS or wherever to further develop. Over time we could have over 100 locally developed players playing overseas.

That will be very good for National sides, arguably cheaper to run, and many good players in their mid teens staying in Football rather than take up league or AFL.

The news is not good, but it may force change at club level administration.



 

I agree. If we can survive this period it could really help the nt

The question is why did it take financial pressure for clubs to start chasing money on the teansfermarkt

If the a league survives i hope they dont go back to playing 34 year old foreign journeymen again

leading in to covid and post the talk was of the amount of youngsters being used and emerging.
Infact some were saying how good it was post covid season/s so don't understand forcing the APL Clubs looking to use more Jnrs, they have been.
The only diff is some Clubs don't work the transfer model like others such as CCM.
The big usual 4 have the resources as has been mentioned many times.

This.

Since covid the a league have been forced to play more junior players anyway. 

We have unearthed an extravagant amount of young talent like we haven't before since the cutting of cost.

This is the one major positive aspect which should continue even when things start going well and money comes back into the game

Thankyou V and nice to see you posting mate.

Yer I don't get the waffle Middy/Graz carry on about - its misleading to a degree re Jnr's.
Unless I'm blind that I can't read or view on the screens I watch there is way way more Jnr's/young introduced by the APL Clubs.
Infact where is any decent named marquee anymore, feck all so what they on about Clubs will be forced more to introduce more of their Jnrs/Academy players, they frigging are and some have HAD to because they broke or NO owners till of late.
PG/Newy - heaps of no names for they've had no budget/resource but for keeping afloat by their APL system handouts.
BR have been skimming the budget for yonks - many young fellas mixed with 2nd rate experienced players.
Seriously get real.
What some have lacked is transfers, well maybe no one abroad like whats on offer ? anyone thought of that ?

Question Graz or whoever who knows where to search - how many Aussie players are currently on contract abroad please ?

This is the best resource I've found to track AA: https://au.soccerway.com/players/players_abroad/australia/

There are currently ~195 Aussies abroad. There are 14 in top 5 leagues. 

One risk is that bozza is claiming the 140mil has to be paid by 2029

I have also heard that, DT signed a doc that apparently allowed Silver lake if things turned sour to convert their shares into a loan.

As an aside, last year according to APL rating when up by over 30%.

HHHMMMmmmm why then is the broadcast deal down or is it the interest payment to Silver lake that has caused the fall in revenue.

My guess is the repayments

Conway mentioned the debts. Also simon hill stated there has been no cut to tv revenue and that is just fox having a go at a rival. Those sources sound more reliable than the noise from fox

Without the repayments we probably dont cut this year. But even a bigger tv deal might partially go to repayments

It certainly makes the original apl boards transgressions even more egregious!

If the fa take over it will become their debt

Absolutely zero chance of FA wasting money on the A-Leagues.
My guess is that if the APL fail then clubs will be invited to join the Championship.

that would be a bad thing imo

a separate top division and fa means the fa can focus on grass roots and work towards p and r happening

if the championship is run by the apl it is the same incentive structure as the nsl and a league has had and you can forget about a connected pyramid (although you might see some weird version of p and r temporarily tried like it was in the nsl era)

we need two top divisions for football to move forward

Ah yes promotion and relegation is the difference in this league making money and going broke.

Yep the AFL and NRL have promotion and relegation 

P and r is best for football in australia. We are in a global sport which means we need to optimize what is best for producing the best possible national team. A better national team benefits the a league and there are cash pools in football not available to other codes like the transfer markt, national team tv rights, prize money and participation revenue 

Not sure about afl but the nrl has the governing body run the league like we used to. This governing structure makes p and r more unlikely. As soon as the fa split from the apl the nst finally got momentum. If the nrl split from the oz rugby league commision it wouldnt surprise me that they would build a nst and p and r even without the pressure of global competition

Invited to join, or beg to join, the result is the same.... 

Rugari on Conroy

and that penalty clauses within the APL’s broadcast rights deal with Paramount – as first reported by this masthead – had meant it was not worth as much as was publicly announced when the deal was inked in May 2021, thus necessitating immediate budgetary adjustments

At least one of these is not true

Well find out the truth when/if Simon Hill moves on from Paramount and does his customary "I couldnt talk before but now I can reveal....." piece. 

It should encourage clubs to work with what realistically they have, you think there will be more opportunities for young players providing they do it properly and more emphasis on finding good players from overseas that won't cost alot so clubs should think twice with regards to scouting and work with their means.

It will be an challenging time but im always optimistic for future.

Hopefully we get news on the NSD soon and of course our national teams always give us hope.

It's really amazing because when I joined this forum. We had a fully engaged ratings/attendance and membership thread.

We wanted every club to average 10k to a match 
Wanderers were beating gws 
There was such a sense of optimism 

Now we're barely surviving 

... and there is no longer the boogeyman of "old soccer" to blame....  I wonder what they next revival of the sport is going to be "New Soccer" perhaps?

I like the AAFC cheeky suggestion a few years back "Football, as we know it" hahahahaha

Must have been a nice time. I'm a newer member here and can't help but notice posters actively wanting the A-League to die. I was thinking maybe I should block them, but I'm not sure where to do that and it probably won't leave too many posts to see hahaha.

Not sure if it still works

https://forum.insidesport.com.au/2363221/Unofficial-442-Muter-Thread

https://github.com/mcjules/442muter/releases/tag/0.5

Thats a very Aleague thing to do, block the thousands of other clubs from participating :P

There's only one flog that actively mutes posters. If you want to be in that clown's company then go for it.

Or head over to reddit where it's all sunshine and lollipops. Those bedwetting fools go to town on your arse if you're even mildly critical of the A League or pro NST. Fuck them.

Welcome to the forum!

Bed wetting fools is top tier banter I love it 

Its always been this way, since 1955... arguably the biggest issue Football has in Australia is a lack of unity ..... many people seem to join a group, and their group is right and the others are wrong.... Most annoying is they are convinced they are right, have god on their side, and hold the high moral ground....

I've an idea

Let's have a Full Pyramid, where everyone gets to find their own level, and your level based on the results on the pitch

might fix that Unity problem you mention

I doubt it...

Are you against an equal playing field for all Mid? Im surprised.

no not at all

Actually in favour but I don't think its the great solution as many hold it to be.... over the years the Football Gods keep looking for if ONLY we did this...

There is no one solution, never has been, the belief by many who hold a view is ..""" IF ONLY"""" we adopted what I think will work and ..."""ITS SIMPLE"""'

When its not simple, its actually quite complex, and needs 100's of little things done...

Without writing a book, my single sentence answer is... we need to develop a conceptual framework with agreed rules that has  set objectives we need to reach and how we operate from day to day. Everyone would operate within the framework which could be constantly adjusted as and when needed.

As an aside, a key objective would be the establishment of P & R.

Hey Mid, you've hit the nail firmly and squarely on the head with your statement below.......  What is stopping this from happening tomorrow???? Its 3 letters mate ... say it with me ... A     P    L

Without writing a book, my single sentence answer is... we need to develop a conceptual framework with agreed rules that has  set objectives we need to reach and how we operate from day to day. Everyone would operate within the framework which could be constantly adjusted as and when needed.

I am all for change and all in on pro rel.....

My deep within my soul feeling is we have as a code a history of mistakes some bigger than others...

Most mistakes were made with good intentions, and things did not pan out the way it was envisaged ...

A large part of the reason for the failures and mistakes, was who ever was in charged believed they had the solution.... when no one has come close....

A difficult aspect is those who hold the view their solution is the '""""One"""" to solve all.... are so convinced they are right they often dismiss other ideas and history has shown often ignore flashing warning signs are ignored .....

APL to date has made some massive errors it is capable of reform.

If we develop a plan and move along hitting key targets and then adjusting the plan over time most things people want will occur.... This is what JJ seems to be doing establish a broad based plan, work within that plan to over time make a viable code..

Mid, it is not a case of ANYONE in Australia having the answers or the golden bullet solution ... the "solution" has been established in 200+ countries all around the world.for a very long time... we can see it anywhere we look (apart from India, Canada and the US) yet we continue to look at these 'markets' and for the appeasement of foreign investors for answers....  You say the APL is capable of reform... I genuinely want to know how and for whom???? How can they survive without the false valuation of their licenses based on guaranteed participation in the top professional league... Would YOU pay 25 million for a new franchise if it could be relegated into state league in 1-2 years with no return on your original 25 mill?  ... AT the other 1000+ clubs in Australia you dont have that already built in risk factor.. The clubs dont require a ROI for anyone one NOR do they need to pay 140 million back to SIlverlake in a few years.... 

Your also right in saying the administrators of the past were possibly even more inept than these ones now... No arguments there, however..... Thats not a good enough excuse though (in my eyes) we have NEVER tried to do what countries around us with similar resources, demographics and challenges around the acceptance of football have done ... why NOT try the obvious? All it takes is FA to insist that from year xyz pro/rel will be implemented with ALL clubs in Australia (with the caveat that they all comply with basic club licensing requirements - like JJ is working on implementing for NST) and then let the reigns go.. Cream rises to the top, crap sinks to the bottom and we have the chance for sporting ambition to drive football progress, NOT just pure corporate greed..

The past is the past - alot has changed since those pioneering NSL days followed by the 20yrs of being excluded.
Naturally "if only" "its simple" "one" is utter dreaming BS IF anyone thinks that way - far, far from the truth its just random talk whoever speaks as such......
Don't think JJ works with that mind set whatsoever you'd agree And the future is in his hands and his offsiders.
IMPORTANTLY he see's/saw that a new Pro league needs to be implemented at standards expected of today - Nothing Ventured Nothing Gained Middy.
He's trying to set the ship below the new path it deserves for the game here full stop period.
Its an exciting and scary new venture that will have its speed humps no doubt about it but its also the foundation the game as a whole needs to improve below and to manage the ongoing challenging growth with the womens game.
The APL can maybe save itself over how long ? if so will it open its arms to "unity" ? what do you see if it recovers for the game below ?

If the APL recovers it will do the EXCAT opposite of open its arms mate... 

Mon & LFC

Huge respect to you both... and even more respect that you are still hanging about and feel passion.

My issue is not with your ideas, nor where you wan to see Football...... My issue is you and in a broader sense those that hold similar views dismiss any other ideas other than essentially a European based Football model established in the late 1800's in nations where its Football first daylight second, which is not universal across every nation and pro rel in particular has a number of different variants. Thr reason given is that it works in over 200 nations and it will work here ... IF ONLY.... 

Whats interesting to me is, I have repeatedly said I want pro rel....  I want change... but I see a different way to get there... and concede there are a number of things to be put in place before it can be done.... further I accept as a code we have often shot ourselves in the foot which has caused a lot of harm.

Numb

""" What "lack of Unity" do you think will exist after a Full Pyramid is in place"""

I repeat, I am not arguing against pro rel... its weird anyone who does not go straight to wam bam from go to pass go... is anti pro rel... 

I have been around Football since I was 4 years old... thats 66 years ago, and we have never had anything close to unity.... and what with one decision all the infighting goes and its all rainbows, lolly pops and sugar coated lemon drops....

What we need is a workable system that will lead to pro rel.... well thats how I see it... 

Middy the respect is reciprocated mate, I promise you... Sure LFC and I want wham bam immediate change but here is the crux... APL want NO CHANGE!!!!! none, zilch, zip,nada.... Thats the point.... Pro/Rel is NOT creating 12 more franchises and closing the door behind you to the other 1000 clubs... we deserve AND demand more.

Oh and nothing to do with Europe mate, happy to see ANY system of rewarding sporting ambition... 

I said P&R will get rid of the lack of Unity,  You said you doubt it

I'd just like to know what Unity problems would exist

Simple question, but you respond with Word Salads.  Sorry, but I'm none the wiser for it.

What "lack of Unity" do you think will exist after a Full Pyramid is in place

I follow the AL and hope it survives. I'm optimistic it will. I wouldn't be offended by posters that don't support it. To each their own.

I think it's important to recognise the AL wasn't good for all football fans in Australia. It really screwed the NSL and ethnic based clubs. Made them a scape goat. It was unfair to do it (to put it mildly) and theres no wonder theres some bad blood. If you recognise that it's easy to understand and not take it personally. 

I hope the NSD and ultimately pro-rel happens and mends some fences. Gets the best from all the clubs and their supporters in the interest of football in Australia. 

+99999

Quicky its NEVER personal, at least not from me anyway... We are all football lovers first and foremost, that is clear to see. Im personally happy to have some individual franchises survive (except for WU ... fuck those dodgy realestate frauds)  and thrive but the Aleague as it stands ( closed off, pay to participate, lopsided draw, entertainment product)  needs to die....  Everyone claims to want UNITY but it can NEVER happen when one league operates like the Aleague and the other 50+ leagues in Australia dont.

The APL cannot survive if it doesn't operate on the principle of receiving a cash injection by selling a participation agreement to the next "expansion" and by not guarantying an exclusive economic territory to certain clubs in order for  them to monopolise the commercial and social opportunities whithin a particular region in order to maximise their return on their investment... That doesnt allow for promotion and relegation or even the existence of clubs that geographically "overlap"
APL owners voting for UNITY is like chickens voting for Colonel Sanders.. 

I won't claim I'm on top of the political stuff that's happening in Australian football with FA, APL, NSD etc. It's one of the reasons I enjoy reading this forum, to hear what's going on and read different takes on it.

My understanding is that FA and various state league teams are pushing for the NSD. I thought the idea was to see if it was viable and if so move towards pro-rel as an outcome. Create that integrated pyrami. If there's no prospect of that why try with the NSD at all?

I do appreciate there's a strong motivator for the APL and it's clubs not to introduce the extra competition so it's a fair comment from you. But it makes me wonder why the FA is trying if there's no hope. 

On the expansion teams they're clearly a mechanism for a needed extra cash injection to the AL. Seems a necessary in the short term but is it for the good long term? A bandaid. 

It makes me wonder if there is some leverage here for the FA. They could throw some money into the league as they have different revenue streams. That could come with conditions like supporting pro-rel and ... who knows what else (interesting Q that)? The FA still needs a functioning domestic league and has an interest in player development. That model where teams need to develop players to generate transfer revenues + with a second tier + bringing Old Soccer back in the fold is likely to assist the NT with that. That's the dream. Seems a win win to me if its helping those AL teams be viable albeit with more competition. 

I'm just spit balling and admit I'm likely being naive and overly optimistic here. 

All bloody good questions mate... and in the simplest terms FA sees that aligning ourselves to what 99.99% of the footballing world is doing is the only progressive way forward for the sport and our performance on the world stage to grow... I also understand why the APL investors would be dead-set against it, as you say, a mechansim for needed cash injection is the only "asset" they have to show for participation. Ross Peligra paying $1 for the Perth license and the Canberra bid failing becuase of how low the distributuns will be next year show us that any "move" by FA to impose P & R to these franchises will reduce their value to an investor even further... Who wants to buys a business which relies on geographic exclusivity and guaranteed performance income ONLY if they actually perform on the field ... if that can be taken away by relegation?

There is a really good piece by Joey Lynch from ESPN which explains it well.

I agree completely that the short term thinking of clubs hasn’t helped and that’s probably why we got here in the first place, I remember when the salary cap would be covered by the Fox sports deal so there was little consequences on who they sign and keep.

But it meant experienced and foreign players were put ahead of young players who were an after thought, before covid the aleague average age was one of the oldest in the whole AFC.
That’s why it’s important clubs have clear strategies going forward given the costs will be tight.

I think some clubs are probably better placed to handling it such as the Mariners, Adelaide etc.

I just hope that same short term thinking doesn’t mean they cut costs on academies because the players you develop and sell overseas won’t be as strong if your farm is weak. 

I'd take most anything written by that nepo-baby FFA/APL shill w/industrial grades of salt, TBH...

Dont know that I agree with you here mate... Joey tends to ask some uncomfortable questions of both FA and APL. "Shill" may be a bit harsh.... 

tell me Guus, when you have a car thats struggling to be reliable do you keep pouring money into it ?
When your appliances keep letting you down do you keep using them ?
Mate we're all for the better of game, be it positive or negative no matter what side.
IF I look at it as you do - I block the fellow posters who are for the APL, mate we're all on the same pitch but I'll block you because someone has a opposing opinion or outlook to myself.
Thats kids stuff, I enjoy the discussions here from either side of the fence, its civil.

Some good news on the kids...

https://aleagues.com.au/news/a-league-joeys-win-asean-u16-championship-who-are-the-players-australia-next-football-stars/?lid=wv3y7hz0iuez&utm_source=apl_owned&utm_medium=edm&utm_campaign=newsletter_Friday_20240705&utm_content=article&utm_term=

Cheers for all the welcomes, guys. Yeah I generally use items until they die. Probably has something to do with growing up without much. It was enough for me, though. Yeah I’m not going to block anyone, it’s just frustrating seeing people actively barracking for the death of A-League, like that would help our sport. I joined up here because there are some wise posters and different discussions from elsewhere.


Don’t get me started on the “wrongs” of the past, quite despicable how it’s been. Thank heavens JJ is getting things done and has us finally heading in the right direction. As impatient as we all are, and rightly so, I’m sure JJ is trying to make sure things don’t fall over before it’s begun.


Cheers. Gotta say, I read reddit too and they seem to be critical of the APL daily haha. Or do you mean the on-field A-League? And I’m one of the biggest proponents of the NST on there, haven’t noticed anything bad… there’s certainly a bunch of people who think it won’t work, that’s just their opinion. I haven’t seen them wanting the league to fail, though. There’s a difference.


I’m not offended by posters who don’t support A-League, we can support or ignore whatever we want to. It’s the “death to A-League” crowd who can’t see the forest for the trees. It’s a similar thing with wanting the NST to fail, or wanting Macarthur or x-Croatia to die… and coming from people who purport to advocate for football in Australia when it couldn’t be further from the truth. Absolutely counterproductive.

Yeah, like I mentioned in a quote above, it’s been despicable the handling of past 20 years. It’s like the many clubs and companies around the world with atrocious histories, but you still buy their products today. You’d love a time machine to go back and slap the bastards in charge. We do need to separate people from organisations though, people were arseholes, but they go and eras change. Still holding on to that pain won’t do anyone any good. It’s like your ex who cheated on you 20 years ago and kept giving you the finger for years afterwards… you have to let it go and move on, it’s just not healthy and you’ll never get anywhere. I’m not saying “forgive and forget”, that shit stays with you forever haha, but goddamn there are brighter days ahead, let’s go!



Pro/rel has to happen. It won’t fix everything, but it’s not meant to. There are as many problems in the sport as there are leaves on a tree… and a connected pyramid would be just one branch. I’m sure we will have it one day. We could’ve expanded more a decade ago and introduced it by now. Just one spot is all it takes!


WU real estate frauds? What’s that about? See, this is the wisdom I’m here for haha. I know they’re building properties around the stadium, tell me they aren’t stuffing it up?

The A-League doesn’t “need to die” my good man. But evolve for the better, absolutely! The league is nowhere near it’s finished state. Agree, it can’t be closed off… pay to play has an expiry (a decade away but surely remaining licences can be refunded if relegated)… lopsided draw is annoying but should be gone after next season with Canberra/Gold Coast entering and Unite Round winding up… and “entertainment product” was so silly to display but probably trying to be agreeable with broadcasters (hasn’t helped much!). The A-League is entertaining and does develop players, but you don’t specifically put those labels on it, silly move.

APL voting for unity… the power struggles give me the shits. Surely this is FA’s call though? They’ve mentioned that the club licences allow for pro/rel, although clubs have the expectation to stick around until 2034. I have the thought that JJ has a rough pathway to “unity” in mind, but a lot depends on the rate of success of the NST.



That’s hilarious that someone actually created a muter. Cheers for looking! What happened to all the posters in that thread? I don’t recognise any names there!

Hey Guus, I guess you are right, It doesnt have to die but it cannot go on operating as it is... thats my point.  The Alegue's "finished state" will be 20 or 24 or 28 teams or whatever they deem saturation point for selling licenses will be and then closed off forever. (they even had some bright spark try and pitch it as promotion relegation if they get to two conferences and shuffle franchises between them).. NOTHING in the APLs planning on language has changed mate... The will NOT amalgamate their league with FA NST or the thousands of clubs below... they can't, even if they wanted to. 

Yeah, I feel like the last eight or nine years of turmoil and bad decisions have stifled a bunch of things... healing with “old soccer” sooner, better expansion clubs, faster and smoother FA/APL split, NST sooner, pro/rel sooner… but they dragged it on and messed it up a bit. Johnson comes in and within 12 months gets the split done.

I know what you mean about APL not budging. They obviously have a lot on their plate at the moment, their own doing… but even if everything was sunshine and rainbows for them, they still wouldn’t be going out of their way to accept pro/rel. They’d probably ask, “What’s in it for us?”. The good thing is, it’s not their choice. It doesn’t matter what the APL want, it’s FA’s call when and how to implement pro/rel, the APL club licences provide for that. So, stiff shite APL haha!

Now, the clubs have paid to play until 2034. Most of that cash has been refunded (to the expansion clubs anyway). But I would imagine that if pro/rel comes in, the relegated club would have part of that remaining fee refunded, if any remaining. And I’d guess that refund would come from FA, so they can afford it. But it would be nice if the APL could actually see how a connected pyramid would benefit them.

I wouldn’t actually mind the APL expanding to a few more areas. While I think of it, how is Gold Coast United run these days, is it still a franchise or members?

The way I can envisage it, APL gets to 16-18 clubs. NST gets to 16 clubs and then starts promoting to A-League until that gets to around 20. The healthiest clubs that meet the NST licencing keep getting hand-picked from NPL to join NST, maybe get up to 18-20 clubs as well. Then we cull back to 16 in each and have full pro/rel, and we’ll have properly licenced clubs heading down to the third tier raising the standards there and ready to go for next time. But there are plenty of ways to get it done, at least we’re taking steps in the right direction with the NST.

Would we consider NST pay to play? I suppose it’s more guaranteeing they have funds to support themselves for a few years. The word was they’ll be licenced for two or three years, so no relegation for at least that time.

Anyway, I’m pumped. Christmas is coming soon, even though it’s all or mostly NSW+VIC. Gotta start somewhere. I think they’ll miss a trick if they don’t have one SA and QLD club straight up, but those clubs have to put their hand up first!