Establishing a tactical training beforehand is not the real solution for the development of children. Player to 10/11 years should not be influenced tactically in order to allow them to develop a natural instinct of play. A good coach adjusts his game tactics in relation to the capacity of its players. In the regional football you can appreciate the parody that organize some coaches with a 1-4-3-3 formation. The ball moves from the base line (Fig 1) up to the 3 front players untouched by the 3 mfd. It would be interesting that the coaches understand that this tactic should not be played vertically. (Kick n' pray) Regardless of the player's age is essentially the control of the ball. More than the elementary tactics is the communication between players with the ball. The ability of controlling the ball gives you the ability of controlling the game. Whatever your tactic may be.


What do you think about the FourFourTwo blog Pros and Cons of the 1- 4-3-3 System of Play?
The National Curriculum is much more than a system of play. It is method of teaching modern football and moves us away from "wrestle ball" and "kick and chase". The NC has mandated that all our youth ...

Have your say.

I will put my 2 cents in before people try and over complicate things. Just a simple con I have found with it.

When using this with younger sides, playing 4-3-3 increases the chances of cheating from the wide men. They can sometimes think that because they are a part of a front 3, they think they are strikers and fail to track back and tuck in.

If the players have the tactical awareness and are willing to work, this works otherwise teams can be exposed big time.

Constantly reminding wing forwards to do this job is one of the most common coaching points.ie recovery back and tuck in to make a compact 4-5-1. I name the forwards as wing forwards and centre forwards to help (not strikers). Every player must have well defined "jobs" in defence and attack.

Busbybabe..Try to encourage the player to be goal-side of the ball then playing with him when in possession of it.
One of the clear reasons why they remain at the forefront is because defenders tend to play long. This is a coaching problem. You can not expect players to trackback n' tuck-in then run 30 yards to get 2 the ball because the coach wants 2 play vertical n' in the opposition' half :-(

Hardly rocket science, is it boys.

That said, there remains an unhealthy obsession amongst new dawn coaches to rely exclusively on some mandated paper formation for junior player dev. What a croc.

I think one of the most difficult things here is to actually preserve the attacking capability of the system. We play it from time to time in an u16 side with a wide skill gap between the top players & the lower ones, & it seems to me that any player deficiencies in the midfield or backs, tends to have the effect of drawing the wide forwards back all the time, leaving your central attacker isolated & waiting for help to arrive. You end up with a defensive system rather than an attacking one.

So the how, when & why questions you raised, are the key. How to respond when a certain situation occurs, where the responsibilities lie etc etc

Yep, a common prob at many levels.

This scenario invites oppo back four to push forward.

Twin striker system, playing no more than 20m apart, is generally a safer bet. Particularly at amateur level.

i agree that is this scenario you need very capable,committed and fit wide midfielders to operate succesfully, and you comment re breaking through the centre is spot on.......

the 4231 is best against the lump and leggit 442 who play narrow and whose back 4 never go past the halfway line.

Out of interest guys to any coaches out there can anyone explain to me the purpose of the number 10 in the 4-3-3 system, what its purpose of the number 10 in the system is it the playmaker? or has a different purpose anyone knows?

I believe it depends on the team and the dynamics of the players with in the team.
Messi is barca's present #10 but he is not only a playmaker he is also a finisher.
Personally (leaving my self wide open) I liked Ronaldinho as a #10 but that’s football.

Yeah it comes down to personal opinion at the end of the day...

I think a true #10 has some major character traits. Rohnaldino and pele had them and another similarity was that they always looked like they where smiling.

The purpose of the number 10 in the basic 1-4-3-3 system is:
- A play maker in the traditional sense who makes things “happen” in and around zone 14 eg. Zidane
- Support play and play off the centre forward
- Must be available for the pass forward option
- Ball distribution
- Attack on goal
- Create checking runs to draw central defenders in front 1/3 (zone 14)

Generally this player is technically and tactically gifted. However the role of the number 10 is now changing. We now have wide players who cut inside performing number 10 roles. Eg Ronaldo, Messi. It is all changing, as is formation, hence my comments on the total footballer in earlier blogs. Please read the following links for an in depth analysis of what is occurring in modern football.

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/26/trequartista-engance-classic-no-10sstruggle/

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/07/30/central-midfield-role/

http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/12/03/introducing-the-central-winger/

Last night I was at a game.

One of our local premier league coaches was complaining how difficult it was for his team to play a 4-3-3, particularly with the absence of effective wingers.

He said he was happy with a 4-4-2 with a 1:3 formation in midfield ATM. He has a former Matilda in the team too. They won the state senior title a two seasons ago.

I have close contact with this club. I would be happy to take them through the incremental stages of playing the 4-3-3 on the training ground. The only problem is that I have a relative who plays in the team, who wouldn't want me instructing players how to play the 4-3-3. Last year I passed on advice via correspondence. I really needed to be on the training track though.

Of course I'm biased towards 4-3-3, because I've been trained in 4-3-3, the variations in midfield and defensive line, and its nuances, 4-2-3-1, 4-5-1, etc.

If it is difficult for a team like this to learn the triangles in midfield, with some adult footballers who work in professions, then it must be very difficult for some young players and coaches too, without thorough education of coaches.

Many local coaches are still avoiding 4-3-3 at senior level in the northern and southern premier leagues. The coaches are not confident with the system.

Of course any formation depends on a team holding its shape. Any team at some time can lose its shape. A team playing a flat 4-4-2 in midfield and always holding its shape, is more effective than a team playing a 4-3-3 and frequently losing its shape.

I felt that when I had an under 12 rep team playing and holding the 4-3-3, with one defensive midfielder, it presented problems for the opposition, all playing 4-4-2s. I also think it helped just having one defensive midfielder able to position the two attacking mids in front of DM.

KNVB strongly believes in the defensive players coaching/advising players in more advanced positions, with each line assisting/mentoring the more advanced line in front of it.





Edited by Decentric: 16/6/2011 09:14:28 PM

Wesley Schneijder plays this for the Netherlands as the attacking midfielder in a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3.

Sometimes i think it maybe easier because o no preconceived ideas.

Nice to see some intelligent comments. Seeing some Premier League teams (North and South) playing basic 4-4-2 with a sweeper at times amazes me. (from personal experience)

Coaches often complain about their players. It is 50, 50. In the end the coach takes responsiblity for how the team performs. The only way players learn (adult or children) is to put on sessions that are game related. Deccentric spot on with giving sessions based on formation and triangualtions. I will relate my experiences with formation training from SSGs to half field games in latter blogs.

Because of a lack of knowledge all humans revert to what they feel comfortable with. They then complain when the outcomes are the same. Insanity!

Recently I prepared to instruct the Youth Community Licence. There is nothing in the content on how to play 1-4-3-3 even in its most basic form. I will spend some time with these coaches givining them the basics so that they feel at least comfortable with giving it a go.

Gregory, I've asked a question about the skip, when receiving the ball in your thread about the coaching under 9s.

I hope to see a response there. I really enjoyed that article you wrote.

Again, I think that depends on the players you have. You may not have the kind of incisive passer with brilliant skills, but you may have a hard running midfielder with an eye for goal (like a Tim Cahill). So you can still play him behind the striker in a 4-3-3, and rely on the creativity of your wide players. I'd say if you play a 4-2-3-1 you'd want your #10 to be more creative than that.

I've said it elsewhere, but in case you missed it, welcome to the 442 forum, Thupercoach.

:d

I'm not sure where Cahill is best deployed in a 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 to be honest. He doesn't engage in build up play consistently enough. He doesn't defend from the front consistently enough either.

Cahill just happens to be brilliant at scoring goals.

If anyone has been watching the women's World Cup, they are certainly playing the 4-3-3 well.

If one looks past the women's inferior technique and speed compared to men, focus on the system and mode of play.

Tom Sermanni has coached well.

Yes there is some poor technique and tactical decisions, but this happens in the mens as well. I have great respect for womens football and the improvement is visible year by year.

Sermanni has been coaching the women for some time now. Are there any new talented up and coming coaches out there ready to take over?

Doubt it actually, but maybe his assitants could in time? Frankly I would be happy with Tom being around for another 10-15 years.

On the topic of 4-3-3, Dean May has our NTC team playing some nice 4-3-3 in the men's senior split state league reserves competition.

They play a compact formation. There is good distancing between and within the lines. The formation is always easily identifible against the calibre of opposition they encounter in the reserves league. The NTC play the 4-3-3 with the two screener and one attacking midfielder triangle system in midfield.

The 4-3-3 midfield triangle with two screeners and one attacking midfielder.


...X................X...............X.................X.....

................X........................X

............................X

....X.......................X.........................X


When defending they often revert to a 4-2-3-1.

4-2-3-1

...X................X...............X.................X.....

................X........................X

.....X.....................X......................X

...........................X......


Sometimes in attack the attacking midfielder pushes up to the apex of the attack with the target striker. This creates a 4-2-4 as the two screeners push up higher to keep the formation compact.

When watching the state league seniors competition the ball is constantly in transition. Teams are forever fighting each other to control the ball. Pass sequences above three are not common enough.

When the NTC plays , under the tutelage of Dean May, originally from Queensland, and England prior to that, it is easy to see the four main moments of play. Possession of the ball, when the other team has possession of the ball, the defensive transition and the attacking transition.

The NTC plays through the midfield in neat triangles. It is aestheticaly pleasing to watch.

[

Edited by Decentric: 21/7/2011 10:51:30 PM

The 4-2-3-1 system solves some of the problems of defending in wide areas. The centre forward role changes somewhat in that he could be permitted to play wide as times on the ball side whilst pushing other players forward. To assist in possession and safety if possession is lost, the two holders play in a staggered formation.

Triangulation in general, creates passing options, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th (the key to possession). Using a "bounce ball" will create space and other passing options as defenders are drawn in. These concepts are trained in positonal games during the formative years.

What is the 'bounce ball' concept, Gregory?

A "bounce ball" is a one touch back pass. My clumsy term. As a ball is played into an attacker in "tight areas", defenders will move toward the ball creating new attacking space. The ball is "bounced back" (4th passing option) and played into "new space" created with 3rd man running concepts or switch of play.

I think the 'bounce ball' phrase is fine as a one touch back pass in those tight areas.

I might even use it myself on the training track.


What do you mean by 3rd man running concepts? I assume it may be a specific phrase for opening a passing lane in triangles or diamonds.

By two holders do you mean the two screeners in the midfield triangle, or the two wide players as holders in the 4-2-3-1 formation?

Is there any way you can demonstrate using the simplistic diagrams I've used before? You may be able to cut and paste.

In the midfield triangle, there are two holders or defensive midfielders (basic 1-4-3-3 shape). Stagger these players so that they do not play flat. This is a strategy that protects against counter attack when the ball is lost and provides another passing option. The triangle constantly changes its shape and dimensions.

Third man running is just that. A third player running into space off the ball creating a passing option.

The Pro's should stay in the middle that way they are more accessible and the Con's should be on the wings as they are normally pretty fast. Sorry couldn't help myself

I have no doubt you will. :lol:

Nothing like impressing the impressionable with terms, phrases and acronyms.

Interesting point.

I've usually kept the two screeners/holders/controlling midfielders/defensive midfielders, flat unless the ball moves out to the flanks where the triangle is rotated.

By staggering them what sort of distances from goal have you staggered the holders instead of them playing them flat? For example would one holder be 5 metres close to goal, 4 metres closer to goal, etc?

There are quite a few different ways to play the system. Situations will demand different tactics from the coach. If we play with the midfield triangle facing forward and one defensive midfielder makes an attacking run then the other obviously "holds". Advanced tactics should not be applied until older age groups or elite players.

Even in our state league at senior level hardly any coaches play 4-3-3.

It seems that coaches lack the confidence to play it, even though trained to play it in FFA courses.

I like the 433 and use it all the time.
But I am developing children into players,, personally I do not see a problem with senior coaches using what ever system they believe is best for the team they have, the skills of their players and the opposition they play.
The only exception to this is development teams ie the U17 andU19 national teams.

Sadly so few of our senior coaches in the state league play 4-3-3 because they lack the confidence. Yet other full time, paid coaches say the FFA courses are brilliant - usually stakeholders.

If they are brilliant, why do the coaches lack the confidence to play it when they leave the course?

Any of the guys who left the KNVB course would have been happy to use it immediately.

What I've done at the junior U12 level is just play a traditional 4-3-3 like I played as a kid in the 70's. The instructions are kept simple the wide players are to start or wait for the ball to come to them from the touch lines at the halfway line, they don't track back.

At this age its fun as the full backs will not attack to leave their opponent alone so we end up stretching the opposition and as we play forward our full backs get to push up into midfield and attack creating extra options and exerting pressure on the opposition.

Other instructions are to take short corners as much as possible, full backs to be available at the side of the penalty box for short kick ins. The opposition invariably will man up at the sides and our midfielders pick up passes down the middle.

It a fun style to play and watch we win some and lose some but in 14 rounds we've been outplayed once in terms of possesion. Though the down side is we are suceptable to the long ball down the middle to the big fast kid.

Setting out a 4-3-3 with the flat midfield is fairly easy.

It is setting out the midfield triangles which makes it difficult.

Simple instructions are good, Arthur.

I Like to take a Zen approach when the kids are playing a match coaches comments are kept to minimum, at training guided discovery is the key for me in developing players that can think. While many use 4v4 games to develop game sense at training I prefer Horst Wein's 3v3 games to develop the players understanding of being in triangles or as I prefer being available for the player with the ball in a side on standing position and taking the ball away with lateral touch.

I like the kids playing the 4-3-3 because there is nothing better than playing on the wings and ripping a full back apart.

Horst wein is a must read for all junior coaches, not just for the exercises but the understanding of how players learn.

I enjoy Horst Wein's stuff, especially the book and DVD on Game Intelligence. I take bits and pieces from several sources and some of my own stuff and present my own style.

What is dispiriting is how many coaches at U12 intermediate level are raveing lunatics and at a guess they all seem to have played or come from the Wimbledon school of football.

Oh by the way I have no problem changing to 4-4-2 especially against stronger opposition. And I have to admit if the kids had the tactical nouse, which they don't, I'd be playing a half of 5-3-2 then the second half 4-2-4 just to annoy the opposition.

Edited by Arthur: 28/7/2011 03:57:56 PM

I've just been watching our NTC coach play a 4-2-3-1/ 4-3-3, using two holders/screeners. They didn't really 'stagger' at all. They stayed in a perfect line across the pitch, almost throughout the whole game.

The NTC is one of the best teams in this state, including state league senior teams, in holding a very good and compact shape.

What does he say about kids with HDD or very low attention spans?
BY the way and for the record I do not believe in HDD I think it is simply a lack of consistent discipline.

It's the digital world we live in, krones.

Most kids these days have an ipod, iphone and a HDD.

Then you will have trouble dealing with it and amplify the problem if discipline is used as the principle aid. It's ADD or ADHD ect., btw. Not Hard Disk Drive.

It's also one of the common disorders in the high functioning autism spectrum and foetal alcohol syndrome.

As decentric would likely advise, as a school teacher and being trained to deal with the problem, the kids have an actual physical inability to concentrate and with it, a very short attention span.

Activities (drills) have to be constantly renewed, varied and attention gaining (fun and enjoyable) as rote activities will cause the interest to wane very quickly and there's little you or they can do anything about avoiding it.



Edited by skeptic: 29/7/2011 01:23:09 PM

You are right it is ADD
and IMO it is bullshit.

Then, sir, you are forever headed for problems when dealing with kids with the disorder which will cause further problems for both them and yourself and you should not be allowed to have them included in your charge of duty of care.

One wonders what their parents would think and how long they'd remain in your care if your opinion was known to them.

I would also suggest if you have the best interest of all kids in mind, including the difficult ones, you would attempt to gain a reasonable understanding of the problem and how best to deal with it. Learning as a coach is not limited to how many new drills you can show off.

'IMO it is bullshit' is a cop out, a bloody ignorant one and damn lazy.

It is no cop out nor ignorant
the whole ADD is bullshit an excuse to comfort parents who have know idea on parenting and for drug companies, doctors and others to make a lot of money.
Spare the rod spoils the child.
All that is needed is consistent discipline and firm love.



Edited by krones3: 29/7/2011 08:08:07 PM

read this

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704111504576059713528698754.html

What scary thought that nonces like this are managing to get within a bull's roar of kids. I give up.

good
you lost in the first place

ADD, ADHD is a label given to a number of students who display a short concentration span. I have taught a number of kids diagnosed with this condition.

It is a complex subject. There is too much depth in the subject for the likes of a football forum. Even as teachers we don't know heaps about it, but we apply certain strategies to teach the students with the condition. It is hard to know whether it is a more common phenomenon, or that there are more experts diagnosing the condition than 35 years ago.

Additives in foods are sometimes the cause. I've taught kids whose diet has been changed and their behaviour/concentration has improved dramatically.

Another common phenomenon in coaching any sport, is the Generation Y and younger generation. Thye have been brought up in an over stimulated world of computers, etc. They are easily bored. In the past sports coaches were able to coach and had a level of respect from just being who they were. They had an exalted status.

Even as teachers the newer generation of infants are not stimulated by stories/illustrations that previous generations were in the past. Yet nearly all of them love the daily fitness programmes I ran which involve games to develop strength, co-ordination, ball skills and fitness. Many female teachers don't have a daily fitness programme. Kids I taught did about half an hour of games per day. Kids with ADD or hyperactive boys often excelled.

Gen Y and younger have been much harder to motivate and keep on track according to sports coaches at all levels. I sometimes despair at how addicted young kids are to computers.

I am concerned about the paucity of kids playing with friends, particularly in more affluent communities/suburbs. Apart from going to and from school, I see almost no kids at any other time, other than a couple of delinquents up to no good, playing with other kids outside. The only time many kids seem to play cricket, aerial ping pong, football , etc, is when a parent drives them to a park and plays cricket or football with their kids.

One never sees groups of kids playing at their local school or play areas participating in street football or cricket. It seems they are all at home using X boxes, playstations, computer games , facebook and TV. Or being driven to organised dancing, scouts, soccer, netball, etc.

I also have a holiday home in a remoter part of Tassie. Kids there are much more active. I like the surf culture, because those kids are really active, and physically fit.
Kids there also fish a lot in boats, but lack the opportunities to play organised football. FFE is planning trips to these areas as state FFA don't go.

KNVB has set up a football programme to counteract the lack of football being played on the streets in Europe. At FFE we encourage kids to practise at home and to organise SSGs at school in the playground such as 4v4, but not the 15 v15 or 20 v 20 games which occur all too frequently.


Edited by Decentric: 31/7/2011 11:55:00 PM

The 'Wimbledon school' adherents seem to be prevalent all over Australia.

Some coaches do courses where the instructors plead with coaches to pay out from the back and play possession football, but it frequently falls on deaf ears. They go straight back to their club team and play the 'Wimbledon way' at any level - senior, youth or junior.


This issue is partly whilst Juve Juve has followed me from WP to this site!!!!


A lot of locals think that is all the state league clubs are capable of playing. A Korean under 12 team visited and showed adults even young kids can play technical football. Nearly every coach I talk to is still obsessed by size of players in this state.

Whether a manager or coach decides to play 'Wimbledon style' football at a senior level is irrelevant regardless of how frustrating it maybe. That is the senior coaches choice, end of story! Certainly we as supporters aren't under any pressure for results as he or she is. If it means winning the title or avoiding relegation a coach will play what they deem to be the most effective formation or method. In saying that, I do believe the board have some say.

As for junior football, I agree results shouldn't be important, although I do remember feeling as though the world was ending if we lost. I do think however, the Wimbledon style of football is better than no style. As I remember, parents gave up their time to coach school kids on the weekends, most of them never having played before.

Size of a player is a funny one. There is a significant correlation between professional footballers and birthdates. For example, if the cut off for an age group is July 1 ... kids born just after this date are more likely to be successful than kids born say in June. This is because those kids excel at the base level and are selected for rep teams, ergo have more opportunities for better coaching and competitive playing time.

Another interesting finding from a number studies. All things being equal, a kid who starts playing a sport at 5 will always be better than the same aged kid who starts at 6.

no its not bullshit.......


however the A.D.D. tag is used and diagnosed way to much to children who dont have ADD and are not disciplined.....but ADD does exist......

these children have parent who suffer from...SCPS.....[size=9]s[/size]oft [size=9]c[/size]ock [size=9]p[/size]arent [size=9]s[/size]yndrome

Edited by batfink: 1/8/2011 12:06:24 PM

Having a mate with ADD I can tell you it is real, he is now in his early 60s, has a Masters in Biology and had quite a long career in the Public Service, it all got to much to manage though as he has a constant fight on his hand to stayed focused on things - and if he forgets to take his medication it is basically impossible to have a conversation with him. So yes children were getting mis diagnosed (especially in the USA) with ADD and ADHD but these medical conditions do exist and can be managed with a combination of diet and medication.

A diamond is like two triangles together.

I have heard Horst Wein's book is good. One former genuine TWG poster called Slowcoach, who holds a UEFA B Licence and a FA A Licence, claims the book has diagrams which are too simplistic. I haven't seen Wein's book.

Conversely, Australia is trying to develop and play a national style under the auspices of a TD.

If coaches of senior state league teams keep ignoring what they learn in FFA courses, it says something about the courses, or the quality of the instructors taking them.

So essentially what your saying is that all teams within Australia should be playing the same formation and style? Does that not make a mockery of playing football??

Coach 1 "i'll play 4-4-3 but only if you do as well" coach 2 "okay, I think my strength is in a 4-4-2 formation because of the players I have but for the good of the nation, I'll play 4-3-3" Cue the violins.

433 or 442 or whatever is just a pre game plan that gets torn up the moment the ref blows his whistle to start the game.

If decentric possessed any genuine coaching experienced (outside the infants school playground) he'd certainly be aware of this.

Our knvb inspired national U17's and U20's are prime examples.

Not even an ultra conservative hack like pimms could maintain shape (451 regularly morphed into a 640) - these things tend to happen more quickly and regularly when players have zero belief or confidence in thier coach.

Edited by judy free: 3/8/2011 09:40:02 AM

** ^ 433

I disagree here as well. A plan or formation can be played and maintained but it depends on the level of opposition. A good opposition will pull a lesser teams formation to pieces.

Pim? Is that name allowed on a public forum .... sacrificial!

So essentially what your saying is that all teams within Australia should be playing the same formation and style? Does that not make a mockery of playing football??

Coach 1 "i'll play 4-4-3 but only if you do as well" coach 2 "okay, I think my strength is in a 4-4-2 formation because of the players I have but for the good of the nation, I'll play 4-3-3" Cue the violins. [/quote]






I'm saying that Australia is renowned for playing no particular formation well in a global context.

There are a number of variations in a 4-3-3.

4-3-3 with a backwards and forwards midfield triangle, 4-3-3 with a flat midfield, 4-3-3 with a diamond or 1;3 defensive line, 4-2-3-1 and 4-5-1 as more defensive variations of the midfield triangles, and when 4-3-3 with the backwards triangle evolves to 4-2-4 in attack.

If one adds the 4-4-2 win the a diamond midfield as a variation on 4-3-3 with the forwards triangle, and a more defensive 4-3-2-1 by inverting the 4-2-3-1 midfield, one has a pretty comprehensive system.

At least this shape (4-3-3 and some variations) is being taught properly (or should be in FFA courses) as opposed to what before?

With players one has the shape can be adjusted.

The Dutch preference is to have adaptable players to adjust to an overall plan. The Italian preference is to build teams around specific players.

Edited by Decentric: 3/8/2011 12:11:47 PM

A good coach is easily able to determine strengths and weaknesses across the park, and will exploit this. However, if he chooses to sit on his hands, players with good "problem solving" abilities will adapt to any such situations accordingly. At elite level shape is more managable. However, at amateur bog standard level, it is an exercise in futility.

Edited by judy free: 3/8/2011 10:03:44 AM

This topic has been covered ad infinitum on here.

When one looks at cold hard facts, Pim has just about the best win/loss record for any Australian coach about 57%, with no games against Oceania minnows.

Pim accrued exactly the same number of points HIddink did at the World Cup in a harder group, albeit with 10 players for most of two matches. Beating Serbia was Australia's greatest achievement on the biggest stage.

Pim qualified for the World Cup, top of table, with an arduous home and away campaign; often in difficult climatic conditions with jet lagged players in the Asian zone.

Yet all people remember is losing 4-0 against Germany.

Holger lost 3-0 to Egypt , a team of much lower stature, yet little was said.

Of course.

And a weak opposition can be further exploited by changing your own team shape or player roles.



Edited by judy free: 3/8/2011 10:14:59 AM

Statistics statistics. Australia went from playing an attractive style where chances were created regularly under Hiddink to playing unattractive crap where the team relied on individual brilliance or raw determination. I wasn't at all impressed with the qualifying campaign either.

I wasn't aware Australia played Egypt in the most important sporting tournament???

Edited by JuveJuve: 3/8/2011 10:24:27 AM

Why is what is taught in a course gospel anyway?? I can sit here and say that the whole thing is a sham, conversely you can sit there and say that every facet taught is the best way.

Give me some supporting evidence. If I hear someone say "just look at the Barca methodology or the Dutch and do what they do" i'll tear their argument to bits.

Edited by JuveJuve: 3/8/2011 10:57:24 AM

True about Egypt being a friendly. It was still a bad loss against a team with similar stature to Australia.

In terms of chances created compared to chances conceded and amount of possession, Australia did well against their adversaries in qualifying campaigns under Verbeek. How would you rate Australia's victory over Serbia in terms of aesthetics?

Juve Juve you do recognise that Alex Ferguson, Arsene Wenger and Valery Lobanovski (did)evaluate stats comprehensively don't you?

Trends emerge over time. In terms of aesthetics in football, Australian fans frequently expect our national senior team to play expansive football and win against technically superior opponents. This is very difficult to achieve.


The innumerable gallant defeats of past eras are a sore point for many Australian fans.

'Unattractive Crap' is often whats needed in a long campaign. Too many people expect us to play like Barcelona and win every game 3-0. I know I'd rather qualify for a World Cup grabbing 1-0 wins away from home than missing out to a series of 4-3 losses.

Pim wasn't perfect but he knew what was needed. There are much bigger footballing nations than ourselves who have battled their way into World Cups. I want to see us playing attractive football but it can't happen in every match

First how can you say any course is a sham if you haven't attended one , or, a specific course?


For KNVB course content visit the Dutch KNVB thread in this section. I don't want to replicate what I've posted in that thread. I'm already accused of prolixity , which is probably a fair comment. I can provide as much detail as you like, or to answer queries in the Dutch KNVB thread.

The FFA Youth Licence wasn't as specific though. I can't remember the detail as well.

I can say the empirical supporting evidence is the players we are currently training under a KNVB model. If one observed the kids train using the methodology compared to what they were using before and evaluated their progress it would be a useful appraisal.

Juve Juve, you haven't responded via PM getting contact details to look at FFE. The last chance is this coming Monday. If you are interested you won't get a chance to view it with the specific and incremental KNVB training paradigm until the end of October.

Given the inexperience in navigating WC and AC campaigns, external football voices are staggered at Australian pundits' criticism of successful campaigns under Pim's tutelage. If one is in Europe Australia has little credibility as a football power.

Stinger makes a moot point when he raises bigger nations than Australia battling their way into big tournaments.

Yes, almost as bad as a new age blow in post 2005 fanboy and wannabe wenger, attempting to compare player dev of past eras with the present.

Christ, yer can't have it both ways, old fruit. :lol:

Ah Decentric, loyal til the end. :lol:

I enjoyed the game against Serbia (well sort of) but I think you're being too lenient on his decision in the Germany match. They were simply mind boggling, anyone with half a brain knows that. To say 'it was just one match' is pretty misleading in a sense. Anyway that could be argued all day.

Welcome to the forum, Arosina.:d

Garcia had a ball cleared off the line in the first few minutes.

If he had scored, Pim would have been labelled a genius. Ironically, the Germany game was one of the first he deviated from 4-3-3 and its permutations. I'm saying his approach was plausible, but didn't work. If you ever read Soccernomics and Inverting The Pyramid, one realises the margins for success and failure are minimal.

He played 4-4-2 with a diamond against Qatar in his first game in charge. Muscat was dropped because of this. Other than those games , Verbeek essentially stuck to a 4-2-3-1, sometimes 3-3-3-1 attack, sometimes 4-3-3 in attack. Once against Japan he opted for a
4-3-2-1.

That's exactly my point. I can't say its a sham and you can't protest it to be the opposite whether you've attended it or not. Specifically who are you or I to say it is the way it should be done. How are you to say Coach K.M would benefit from it???? I would say there are very few in the world that you could trust to say "this methodology is the most effective." Football is dynamic, I'd argue there isn't one methodology that is the be all and end all.

"I can say the empirical supporting evidence is the players we are currently training under a KNVB model. If one observed the kids train using the methodology compared to what they were using before and evaluated their progress it would be a useful appraisal."

^ this needs to happen on a nation wide scale before I 'buy into' anything. I might check a data base and see if there is any emperical research.

A further option is to look at a KNVB paradigm.

You would have to have had a knowledge of the players before they came though to compare. You would also need to be familiar with other training ground practices on offer, otherwise it would be worthless, unless you want to join in/help.:)

I've read on the internet that Dutch, French, Italian and Brazilian models are regarded as the most successful. I can't remember where I've read it, but some of Craig Foster's articles have had references to the subject.

One can also look at what nationality coaches have who are coaching international teams.

Kelly Cross might also have alluded to this subject in one of his speeches. He also told me in private conversation which methodologies are considered the best.

But the difference between a win and a loss wasn't minimal in that match. WE SHOULD HAVE LOST 10-0!! How does losing 10-1 (because Garcia could have scored) make Pim a genius?

His tactics were plausible? ............have you watch the match? You've really got your blinkers on this issue.

As for attending your clinic - I work full time, I'm renovating a house and in the middle of further post grad studies. Time is tight sorry.

I spent about 8 hours slowly analysing a replay, recording individual stats for Science Of Football.

I'm not saying the performance was good, I'm saying that there are fine margins in football.

If Lampard (or Terry) had scored a penalty in a ECL semi-final, Avram Grant would have been retained as Chelsea's coach.

It is an analogous scenario to Chelsea's with Garcia's strike. Germany was a young team. They may have panicked by going one down. The 4-4-2 with a bowl shaped midfield was deployed for a small period of the game.

Edited by Decentric: 4/8/2011 11:37:11 PM

FFS. :lol:

You said this


[/quote]

It is an analogous scenario to Pim's with Garcia's strike. Germany was a young team. They may have panicked by going one down. [/quote]

Thanks. It's good to be here. Yes. It. Is.

Just like the old days....:lol: :d

Pims decisions in South Africa IMO were the correct ones and any mature adult with any knowledge of football would be able to clearly see what his thought process was.

Just for the record the ADD kids seem to be responding very well to consistent discipline, smaller numbers at training, more individual attention and total involvement at training.
ADD my arse.

Excellent news, krones.

I have taken the liberty of sending links to this forum and thread to international academies of child and adolescent psychiartry.

I have a strong belief that your success in this field will soon be recognised globally.

Strayan sockah dads, doing us proud.

You're wrong.

Are you from the 1930s or 20s??

Townsville.

My arse? Then why the "responding very well" after altering to smaller numbers, more individual attention and total involvement? And also, by the way, consistent discipline, with consistent being the operative word.

All of which were and are advised for ADD children.