BETHFC
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Anything constructive to say?
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ricecrackers
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benelsmore wrote:Anything constructive to say? read back through the thread. plenty of info contributed, however reposting childish gifs, memes and videos of comedians isnt constructive its merely reducing it to a schoolyard level of engagement
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humbert
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When marriage becomes a part of the state, discrimination is unacceptable. Either legalise gay marriage, or refrain from recognising any marriage and instead transition to civil unions.
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A16Man
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ricecrackers wrote:benelsmore wrote:Anything constructive to say? read back through the thread. plenty of info contributed, however reposting childish gifs, memes and videos of comedians isnt constructive its merely reducing it to a schoolyard level of engagement Coming from the person whose argument was 'if you're defending gay rights you are gay'. :lol:
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BETHFC
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ricecrackers wrote:benelsmore wrote:Anything constructive to say? read back through the thread. plenty of info contributed, however reposting childish gifs, memes and videos of comedians isnt constructive its merely reducing it to a schoolyard level of engagement I've not seen any credible information presented only opinion.
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ricecrackers
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A16Man wrote:ricecrackers wrote:benelsmore wrote:Anything constructive to say? read back through the thread. plenty of info contributed, however reposting childish gifs, memes and videos of comedians isnt constructive its merely reducing it to a schoolyard level of engagement Coming from the person whose argument was 'if you're defending gay rights you are gay'. :lol: you're putting words in my mouth. i never made such a statement i suggested you might not have much idea what you're talking about given a) you're not gay and b) you havent personally visited any of the countries in the comedian's documentary about gays and c) you dont even know what rights are your whole concept of rights is screwball. gays are asking for privileges that arent afforded to those who are straight. they have all the same rights as straight people, currently. simple concept. all you and they want is to change the definition of a word which is currently based on biological facts. why not change the definition of the various words describing genitalia while you're at it because its discriminatory that different genders should have different organs?
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A16Man
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ricecrackers wrote:A16Man wrote:ricecrackers wrote:benelsmore wrote:Anything constructive to say? read back through the thread. plenty of info contributed, however reposting childish gifs, memes and videos of comedians isnt constructive its merely reducing it to a schoolyard level of engagement Coming from the person whose argument was 'if you're defending gay rights you are gay'. :lol: you're putting words in my mouth. i never made such a statement Your response to a comment of mine: ricecrackers wrote:it continues to amaze me how you homosexuals equate your plight with racial issues there is no correlation whatsoever, none
get over yourselves and stop feeling sorry for yourselves and feeling like the world owes you something
you have the same rights as everyone else.
Edited by ricecrackers: 2/3/2014 12:32:29 AM ricecrackers wrote:i suggested you might not have much idea what you're talking about given a) you're not gay and I'm not a female but can still have an opinion on women's rights. I'm not Aboriginal but I can still have opinions on Indigenous rights. That argument is absurd and moot. b) you havent personally visited any of the countries in the comedian's documentary about gays and I haven't visited many places but can still comment about things that happen there. I've never been to Melbourne but could tell you things about the city. For example, as this is a football forum, there are two A-League teams in Melbourne. Or am I not at liberty to make this statement as I've never been there? c) you dont even know what rights are How so? What have I said about rights that is so wrong? Please reply with a direct quote rather than just your own ramblings. ricecrackers wrote:your whole concept of rights is screwball. gays are asking for privileges that arent afforded to those who are straight. they have all the same rights as straight people, currently. simple concept.
all you and they want is to change the definition of a word which is currently based on biological facts.
why not change the definition of the various words describing genitalia while you're at it because its discriminatory that different genders should have different organs? Speaking of putting words in mouths, give me a quote of when I said any of the above.
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ricecrackers
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i deliberately made the first quote to get you to declare your position. you're correct, you werent one to ask for the change to marriage definition, however you suggested gays lacked other rights attached to marriage there are no rights attached to marriage, they are all privileges and they are primarily financial in nature.
as for the documentary and the other influences on your views (which you wont declare), ask yourself whether there might be some deliberate bias for an ulterior motivation by the producers of that information
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A16Man
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ricecrackers wrote:i deliberately made the first quote to get you to declare your position. you're correct, you werent one to ask for the change to marriage definition, however you suggested gays lacked other rights attached to marriage there are no rights attached to marriage, they are all privileges and they are primarily financial in nature.
as for the documentary and the other influences on your views (which you wont declare), ask yourself whether there might be some deliberate bias for an ulterior motivation by the producers of that information What a load of bullshit! Especially the first line. I've asked you to show give me quotes to support your arguments towards me and you just regurgitate more general lines to get yourself out of it. I've never said half of the things you're saying I have but yet you continue to spurt off about things that show your own ignorance. And get over the documentary FFS all I ever said was it's an interesting watch.
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ricecrackers
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A16Man wrote:ricecrackers wrote:i deliberately made the first quote to get you to declare your position. you're correct, you werent one to ask for the change to marriage definition, however you suggested gays lacked other rights attached to marriage there are no rights attached to marriage, they are all privileges and they are primarily financial in nature.
as for the documentary and the other influences on your views (which you wont declare), ask yourself whether there might be some deliberate bias for an ulterior motivation by the producers of that information What a load of bullshit! Especially the first line. I've asked you to show give me quotes to support your arguments towards me and you just regurgitate more general lines to get yourself out of it. I've never said half of the things you're saying I have but yet you continue to spurt off about things that show your own ignorance. And get over the documentary FFS all I ever said was it's an interesting watch. A16Man wrote: And have you had your head in the sand in the lead up to Sochi 2014 and all the talk about gay rights (or lack thereof) in Russia?
A16Man wrote: You're joking right? It's not like the lack of human rights for homosexuals around the world is not well documented.
And fwiw, my opinion isn't solely based on the documentary, I was just saying it's an insightful watch.
A16Man wrote:11.mvfc.11 wrote:Marriage wrote:The formal union of a man and a woman, typically as recognized by law, by which they become husband and wife: There you have it. I don't wish to discriminate in any way against gay people, but marriage is and has always been the union of man and woman. That doesn't mean your love is any less, or that you are being "denied" something. We should allow all the rights that come with marriage to gay civil unions, but the word marriage is not the correct term for these unions. Aboriginal people were once not included in the Australian census according to the definition in the constitution. Definitions change over time.
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A16Man
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Your point? I haven't given my opinion on any of the quotes you've given. All I've said was: a) There was a massive debate about gay rights in Russia pre-Sochi. b) There's a huge amount of information reported about gay rights (or lack thereof) around the world. c) Legal definitions can and have changed over time.
In those quotes I've never advocated one thing or another or pushed my opinions on someone else.
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ricecrackers
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A16Man wrote:Your point? I haven't given my opinion on any of the quotes you've given. All I've said was: a) There was a massive debate about gay rights in Russia pre-Sochi. b) There's a huge amount of information reported about gay rights (or lack thereof) around the world. c) Legal definitions can and have changed over time.
In those quotes I've never advocated one thing or another or pushed my opinions on someone else. you really are backpedaling now
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A16Man
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ricecrackers wrote:A16Man wrote:Your point? I haven't given my opinion on any of the quotes you've given. All I've said was: a) There was a massive debate about gay rights in Russia pre-Sochi. b) There's a huge amount of information reported about gay rights (or lack thereof) around the world. c) Legal definitions can and have changed over time.
In those quotes I've never advocated one thing or another or pushed my opinions on someone else. you really are backpedaling now How so?
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99 Problems
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Can anyone name 1 legitimate negative that would come by letting gay people get married?
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ricecrackers
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99 Problems wrote:Can anyone name 1 legitimate negative that would come by letting gay people get married? it would slug the taxpayer millions in administrative costs to implement
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99 Problems
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ricecrackers wrote:99 Problems wrote:Can anyone name 1 legitimate negative that would come by letting gay people get married? it would slug the taxpayer millions in administrative costs to implement I think the cost would be negligent when considering the benefit it would be to thousands of taxpayers
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ricecrackers
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99 Problems wrote:ricecrackers wrote:99 Problems wrote:Can anyone name 1 legitimate negative that would come by letting gay people get married? it would slug the taxpayer millions in administrative costs to implement I think the cost would be negligent when considering the benefit it would be to thousands of taxpayers it wont benefit most taxpayers
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u4486662
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ricecrackers wrote:99 Problems wrote:Can anyone name 1 legitimate negative that would come by letting gay people get married? it would slug the taxpayer millions in administrative costs to implement Yeah, I don't know. To get married costs a fair bit of money. It would be tremendous for the economy. Especially the extravagant gay weddings. ;)
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ricecrackers
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u4486662 wrote:ricecrackers wrote:99 Problems wrote:Can anyone name 1 legitimate negative that would come by letting gay people get married? it would slug the taxpayer millions in administrative costs to implement Yeah, I don't know. To get married costs a fair bit of money. It would be tremendous for the economy. Especially the extravagant gay weddings. ;) i was referring to government administrative costs... which the taxpayer shall need to foot the bill for
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BETHFC
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ricecrackers wrote:A16Man wrote:ricecrackers wrote:benelsmore wrote:Anything constructive to say? read back through the thread. plenty of info contributed, however reposting childish gifs, memes and videos of comedians isnt constructive its merely reducing it to a schoolyard level of engagement Coming from the person whose argument was 'if you're defending gay rights you are gay'. :lol: your whole concept of rights is screwball. gays are asking for privileges that arent afforded to those who are straight. they have all the same rights as straight people, currently. simple concept. all you and they want is to change the definition of a word which is currently based on biological facts. why not change the definition of the various words describing genitalia while you're at it because its discriminatory that different genders should have different organs? They're asking to be able to have a marriage like straight couples. How is that privileges? Fail that, what is wrong with them having a civil union? They just want their relationship recognised like straight couples. There's no privilege to that. The definition of the word is based on a religious belief.
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BETHFC
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ricecrackers wrote:u4486662 wrote:ricecrackers wrote:99 Problems wrote:Can anyone name 1 legitimate negative that would come by letting gay people get married? it would slug the taxpayer millions in administrative costs to implement Yeah, I don't know. To get married costs a fair bit of money. It would be tremendous for the economy. Especially the extravagant gay weddings. ;) i was referring to government administrative costs... which the taxpayer shall need to foot the bill for Compared to other things its an insignificant cost. Is that the best argument you have?
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humbert
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benelsmore wrote:ricecrackers wrote:u4486662 wrote:ricecrackers wrote:99 Problems wrote:Can anyone name 1 legitimate negative that would come by letting gay people get married? it would slug the taxpayer millions in administrative costs to implement Yeah, I don't know. To get married costs a fair bit of money. It would be tremendous for the economy. Especially the extravagant gay weddings. ;) i was referring to government administrative costs... which the taxpayer shall need to foot the bill for Compared to other things its an insignificant cost. Is that the best argument you have? Hey, hey. It costs money. Better not do things which cost money.
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Fredsta
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benelsmore wrote:FTR I don't hate Christianity. Well no less than I hate any other theistic religion. The Abrahamic religions do a good job of bringing hate upon themselves for the rigid draconian morals which have no useful application today. Fair enough and I'm not looking to have a go at you or anyone for that matter but I honestly can't fathom why so many agnostic or atheists out there have such a passionate hatred for religion, I get the hatred for lunatic fundamentalists, most average religious people despise that element too. But it's kind of infuriating seeing so many social media posts that feel the need to disprove peoples beliefs, I just can't fathom why religion bothers so many people to the point of becoming passionately anti theistic. Not saying that's you at all, but just venting tbh, I find the insensitivity of anti theism a bit of a pet hate. I could understand people's distaste of religion stemming from the way in which it has been used to propagate intolerance by hate mongers, but imo homophobia is a societal problem that permeates all facets of our culture. Religion is clinged to as an excuse for many but when you strip the issue down it's an ingrained cultural intolerance that would still prosper without the presence of religion imo.
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ricecrackers
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benelsmore wrote:ricecrackers wrote:A16Man wrote:ricecrackers wrote:benelsmore wrote:Anything constructive to say? read back through the thread. plenty of info contributed, however reposting childish gifs, memes and videos of comedians isnt constructive its merely reducing it to a schoolyard level of engagement Coming from the person whose argument was 'if you're defending gay rights you are gay'. :lol: your whole concept of rights is screwball. gays are asking for privileges that arent afforded to those who are straight. they have all the same rights as straight people, currently. simple concept. all you and they want is to change the definition of a word which is currently based on biological facts. why not change the definition of the various words describing genitalia while you're at it because its discriminatory that different genders should have different organs? They're asking to be able to have a marriage like straight couples. How is that privileges? Fail that, what is wrong with them having a civil union? They just want their relationship recognised like straight couples. There's no privilege to that. The definition of the word is based on a religious belief. marriage is a privilege granted by the state, not a right. how many times must i repeat this... its based on the union of members of the opposite gender who are capable in most instances of bearing children gays are allowed to have civil unions with each other already. gays can be granted the privilege to marry members of the opposite sex if this choose to, however many choose not to. it has nothing to do with rights. why do they want their relationships recognised by the government like straight couples? what is so important that the government provide its blessing in unholy matrimony? what about ladies only gyms? should they be illegal based on discrimination? what about gender defined toilets? should they be illegal based on discrimination?
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u4486662
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Fredsta wrote:benelsmore wrote:FTR I don't hate Christianity. Well no less than I hate any other theistic religion. The Abrahamic religions do a good job of bringing hate upon themselves for the rigid draconian morals which have no useful application today. Fair enough and I'm not looking to have a go at you or anyone for that matter but I honestly can't fathom why so many agnostic or atheists out there have such a passionate hatred for religion, I get the hatred for lunatic fundamentalists, most average religious people despise that element too. But it's kind of infuriating seeing so many social media posts that feel the need to disprove peoples beliefs, I just can't fathom why religion bothers so many people to the point of becoming passionately anti theistic. Not saying that's you at all, but just venting tbh, I find the insensitivity of anti theism a bit of a pet hate. I could understand people's distaste of religion stemming from the way in which it has been used to propagate intolerance by hate mongers, but imo homophobia is a societal problem that permeates all facets of our culture. Religion is clinged to as an excuse for many but when you strip the issue down it's an ingrained cultural intolerance that would still prosper without the presence of religion imo. You're right. Most religious people are good natured, warm hearted people who derive solace from their faith. And if that was ALL religion was, there wouldn't be a problem. I'll let Bill Maher sum up my feeling. [youtube]HyHhAoxTXKI[/youtube]
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ricecrackers
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Bill Maher :oops:
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humbert
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Fredsta wrote:benelsmore wrote:FTR I don't hate Christianity. Well no less than I hate any other theistic religion. The Abrahamic religions do a good job of bringing hate upon themselves for the rigid draconian morals which have no useful application today. Fair enough and I'm not looking to have a go at you or anyone for that matter but I honestly can't fathom why so many agnostic or atheists out there have such a passionate hatred for religion, I get the hatred for lunatic fundamentalists, most average religious people despise that element too. But it's kind of infuriating seeing so many social media posts that feel the need to disprove peoples beliefs, I just can't fathom why religion bothers so many people to the point of becoming passionately anti theistic. Not saying that's you at all, but just venting tbh, I find the insensitivity of anti theism a bit of a pet hate. I could understand people's distaste of religion stemming from the way in which it has been used to propagate intolerance by hate mongers, but imo homophobia is a societal problem that permeates all facets of our culture. Religion is clinged to as an excuse for many but when you strip the issue down it's an ingrained cultural intolerance that would still prosper without the presence of religion imo. The problem stems from the perception that religious moderates indulge in a la carte religion. i.e. they aren't sincere in their beliefs because they pick the good, and discard the bad.
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BETHFC
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Fredsta wrote:benelsmore wrote:FTR I don't hate Christianity. Well no less than I hate any other theistic religion. The Abrahamic religions do a good job of bringing hate upon themselves for the rigid draconian morals which have no useful application today. Fair enough and I'm not looking to have a go at you or anyone for that matter but I honestly can't fathom why so many agnostic or atheists out there have such a passionate hatred for religion, I get the hatred for lunatic fundamentalists, most average religious people despise that element too. But it's kind of infuriating seeing so many social media posts that feel the need to disprove peoples beliefs, I just can't fathom why religion bothers so many people to the point of becoming passionately anti theistic. Not saying that's you at all, but just venting tbh, I find the insensitivity of anti theism a bit of a pet hate. I could understand people's distaste of religion stemming from the way in which it has been used to propagate intolerance by hate mongers, but imo homophobia is a societal problem that permeates all facets of our culture. Religion is clinged to as an excuse for many but when you strip the issue down it's an ingrained cultural intolerance that would still prosper without the presence of religion imo. It's not so much of a passionate hate, I don't go out of my way to hate them its too exhausting. I also only dislike the teachings and the moral rigidity. The people who adhere to these religions are judged case by case. Some people are intolerant loonies, others are normal people who believe in God. I used to fit your militant atheist description pretty well but at the end of the day who really cares as long as religion doesn't affect me which it usually doesn't? I get the odd person try and convert me in public but that's about it. As for the cultural homophobia I think Abrahamic religion created this deep rooted cultural intolerance for homosexuality. Before Christendom was prominent, many cultures tolerated homosexuality without sensationalising it in one way or another.
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BETHFC
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ricecrackers wrote:benelsmore wrote:ricecrackers wrote:A16Man wrote:ricecrackers wrote:benelsmore wrote:Anything constructive to say? read back through the thread. plenty of info contributed, however reposting childish gifs, memes and videos of comedians isnt constructive its merely reducing it to a schoolyard level of engagement Coming from the person whose argument was 'if you're defending gay rights you are gay'. :lol: your whole concept of rights is screwball. gays are asking for privileges that arent afforded to those who are straight. they have all the same rights as straight people, currently. simple concept. all you and they want is to change the definition of a word which is currently based on biological facts. why not change the definition of the various words describing genitalia while you're at it because its discriminatory that different genders should have different organs? They're asking to be able to have a marriage like straight couples. How is that privileges? Fail that, what is wrong with them having a civil union? They just want their relationship recognised like straight couples. There's no privilege to that. The definition of the word is based on a religious belief. marriage is a privilege granted by the state, not a right. how many times must i repeat this... its based on the union of members of the opposite gender who are capable in most instances of bearing children gays are allowed to have civil unions with each other already. gays can be granted the privilege to marry members of the opposite sex if this choose to, however many choose not to. it has nothing to do with rights. why do they want their relationships recognised by the government like straight couples? what is so important that the government provide its blessing in unholy matrimony? what about ladies only gyms? should they be illegal based on discrimination? what about gender defined toilets? should they be illegal based on discrimination? Gays are not permitted civil unions in Australia. Not allowing gays to marry is as discriminatory as me refusing to employ a muslim due to his/her prayer requirements sighting it as a privilege. The same could be said of a smoker who wastes time each day smoking. You're losing sight of the point here. They have ladies only gyms for women to be more comfortable, if you don't like it, find another gym. The toilet matter is for privacy. What idiotic arguments. I want those people to be recognised because they're people like us straight people and they love who they love. They biologically can't change it so why do we prevent them having the same recognition? It's important from a moral standpoint in that they are not seen as lesser citizens or lesser couples due to their sexual preference. F*ck me how is this difficult for you to understand?
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Fredsta
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humbert wrote:The problem stems from the perception that religious moderates indulge in a la carte religion. i.e. they aren't sincere in their beliefs because they pick the good, and discard the bad. There's no written rule that you devote yourself to the entirety of the subject and that goes for all walks of life, it's only the absolute extreme of the fundamentalists that take the literal word of the Bible in it's entirety. Personally i went to a Catholic school where we were encouraged to accept the facets of the Catholic faith that appealed to us and to challenge those that don't, for example I still consider myself a part of the Catholic faith but I don't believe in a God and I'm not a homophobe. It's taking a very naive view of religion if you think everyone follows things blindly and are not 'sincere' if they don't challenge certain aspects.
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