When the Ukrainian president was replaced by a US-selected administration, in an entirely unconstitutional takeover, politicians such as William Hague brazenly misled parliament about the legality of what had taken place: the imposition of a pro-western government on Russia's most neuralgic and politically divided neighbour

The reality is that, after two decades of eastward Nato expansion, this crisis was triggered by the west's attempt to pull Ukraine decisively into its orbit and defence structure, via an explicitly anti-Moscow EU association agreement.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict

You're either naive or wilfully ignorant to think that NATO membership for Ukraine is not on the cards.

They have not joined NATO. Nor are they able to. Can you comprehend that simple point?

Nice article about how we got here.

And rather prescient too.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict

When the Ukrainian president was replaced by a US-selected administration, in an entirely unconstitutional takeover, politicians such as William Hague brazenly misled parliament about the legality of what had taken place: the imposition of a pro-western government on Russia's most neuralgic and politically divided neighbour.

After Crimeans voted overwhelmingly to join Russia, the bulk of the western media abandoned any hint of even-handed coverage. So Putin is now routinely compared to Hitler, while the role of the fascistic right on the streets and in the new Ukrainian regime has been airbrushed out of most reporting as Putinist propaganda.

So you don't hear much about the Ukrainian government's veneration of wartime Nazi collaborators and pogromists, or the arson attacks on the homes and offices of elected communist leaders, or the integration of the extreme Right Sector into the national guard, while the anti-semitism and white supremacism of the government's ultra-nationalists is assiduously played down, and false identifications of Russian special forces are relayed as fact.

In fact, one outcome of the crisis is likely to be a closer alliance between China and Russia, as the US continues its anti-Chinese "pivot" to Asia.

You're confusing cause and effect.  The cause of the invasion is Ukraine's to join NATO and the West's willingness to accept it.

And made it worse for russians in general for a long time now.

Which makes me think the NATO stuff could just as well be BS. I don't think anyone really knows 100% why he has invaded - including those close to him - after all he's also thrown up that he's saving people from genocide (no evidence at all mind you).

There is the possibility it's nothing more than a sociopathic quest for more power and a return to the Soviet Union. 

Yup. Major backfire. Germany committing to 2% of GDP spending on military and Finland wanting to join NATO. He's made the situation worse for Russian security. 

I guess you're ok with Russia invading Estonia and Latvia since they're right next to each other and Russia should feel aggrieved because of this. 

You might not like it, but you'd be in the wrong if you invaded. Why can't Ukraine ally itself with others in the west? We can flip the situation. If the might of your enemy is on your doorstep, do you think its okay to let it be or to pursue allies? i.e. the Russian Army is next to Ukraine, why can't Ukraine defend itself by allying itself with NATO? 

It's extreme, you can see if from his point of view, but it is not justified. Ukraine is entitled to protect itself through alliances. 

Cuba and the USSR could have called the US' bluff. In that situation, the US were not in the right. If the US started a war over Cuba, it would have been in the wrong. Understand that you want to defend yourself, but Cuba wanted to defend itself as well. 

it would be tragic if we did

if Russians don't have a right to protest against the war without persecution and threats from the government then it tells us exactly what kind of country Putin is running

I think, that back in the 90's the west thought, with the fall of the iron curtain, and capitalism spreading to the former Soviet territories and Russia itself that democracy would take hold, free and fair elections would be held and everyone would eventually be 'integrated' into the 'west'.

To a large degree that's happened with former Warsaw pact members like, Slovakia, Poland Latvia, Estonia etc becoming thriving capitalist democracies.

No one banked on Russia stalling and then going backwards and becoming more and more autocratic. I mean for fucks sake Putin changed the constitution so he could stay in power, murders journalists by the dozens, poison or locks up anyone that dares to speak against him, runs misinformation campaigns, actively interferes in elections and engages in cyber warfare constantly. I hardly think for one minute that's what the west thought would happen. So I guess now they're tearing up those 'agreements' or 'understandings' (or saying they didn't exist) they had in the 90s to build a bulwark. Either to deliberately antagonise Putin, to build a buffer between them and the 'old' western Europe', to help spread democracy or a mixture of all three. (And maybe some others.) 

Almost exactly the same thing has happened in China regards their trajectory since opening up their economy and embracing capitalism. They're peas in a pod.

This whole Russia thing could go a couple of different ways but it is interesting seeing mass protests in Moscow that would have been unthinkable a few years ago. Are we going to get another Tianemen Square incident.

the SWIFT ban will bring Putin to heel

It's weird seeing you back an autocratic ex-communist (possibly the word's richest) tyrant that yearns for the old days and yet, here we are.

Yes saw Condaleeza Rice say that in an interview by that Fox hack, is it Jannette Pirot or something. The look on her face was priceless. 

Indeed. I would say he's just guaranteed an exceptionally strong and well funded NATO.

If Putin's endgame is to slow down or stop what he considers to be the unacceptable expansion of NATO & asssociated political influence then he isn't doing very well on that front.   :hehe:

Op-Ed: Russia’s got a point: The U.S. broke a NATO promise

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-shifrinson-russia-us-nato-deal--20160530-snap-story.html

Ok cool, so unless everyone walks around chanting 'I will not join NATO' they are getting invaded and their apartments bombed. What sort of logic is this?

Moscow is 500kms from the Ukraine border.  Under 15 minutes flight for a NATO fighter plane.   Less for missiles.  Ain't happening.

So why not rule it out?  NATO and Ukraine have had plenty of time to say exactly that.

I have no skin in this game.  Sorry if you do.

FMD

FFS Ukraine has not joined Nato - nor is there any realistic possibility of it! Look at the criteria. 

Having said that - if they were would anyone blame them considering what has happened? If anything this has shown why they'd want security.

Lastly, I suggest a few people get out a map, look at the russian border and see how threatened their pwoor widdle country is...what a joke. 

So if your neighbour habours the military might of your enemy, you think its ok to just let that happen? 

Putins actions may seem extreme but perfectly understandable from the point of view of protecting his nation.  We would do the same.

Hang on. Cuba wanted Soviet missile bases on its land.  The US said to Cuba if you do that we will nuke you and the USSR. Cuba and the USSR backed off.  They weren''t entitled to pursue whatever relationship they wanted.  Which is what NATO should have done in Ukraine..  Years ago

Yup. Understand this mentality/standpoint, but doesn't justify invasion. 

100%.


No way would Russia allow itself to be surveilled that closely and with enemy military bases so close to its border, Neither would the US.

The US and Cuba are also perfectly entitled to pursue whatever relationship they want (trade embargo included). 

The first point  was not true in 1962 and the US is till applying a trade embargo against Cuba akin to financial/trade sanctions against Russia that are happening as we speak.
Your last point hinges on the outcome of this war. The sensible resolution is Ukraine neutrality.

US got Cuba to move the missile that were there on the proviso that they never ever invade Cuba again. 

Is the negotiating here going to be that Putin will say 'we will withdraw' if what it considers to be "Western" influence to be "removed" from the country?   i.e Any sort of Nato membership? Any sort of NATO miltary bases or equipment?   Seems to me that he scared shitless of Ukraine not for Ukraine itself but for their "Western" partners.   Is this going to be a Cuba situation?  As in "we'll get the fuck out if you get the fuck out" ?    Interesting.   

What 'sacred beliefs'.

Is there a buzzword sentence generator you blokes use when writing on forums.

Can we play? Is there a buzzword bingo card? Let's see if we can guess a few of the words.

Leftard
Libtarb
Left wing
Woke
Liberal
Mandate
Anti (as any prefix)
Triggered
Socialist
Ecoloon

Missing heaps obviously but just a few off the top of the head.



Also exactly who is 'but are happy to hold up neo-Nazis in Ukraine as national heroes defending a clearly corrupt and authoritarian Ukrainian government'?'

Have yet to see anyone here say 'we love neo-Nazis. They're great when they're on the right side.'