From a couple of PMs I will differentiate some KNVB training ground methodology from the FFE thread.


KNVB stands for- Kingdom of the Netherlands Voetbal association.



Edited by Decentric: 1/6/2011 03:20:45 PM

In KNVB trainin there is a TIC model.

T =Technique
I = Insight (game intelligence)\
C = Communication

TIC is applied to every age group.

From ages of 5-10, Technique acquisition is considered paramount. Insight and Communication are secondary, barely touched on up to 10.


This is supposedly achieved through 4v4 SSGs and specific technique instruction.

Why 4v4 SSGs? KNVB claim that players get a lot of touches with 4v4. At the same time they gain a sense of width and depth with a diamond shaped 1-2-1 formation in the scenario.

IN former FFA training, before Baan and Berger rewrote the FFA curriculum, everything was supposed to be taught in a game context. The problem was that faulty technique can't be rectified if all instruction is done exclusively in match scenarios. The Barca Academy drills reinforce this point.

Insight is emphasised more as players start 7v7 and 11 v 11 in Holland.


Rob Baan deviates from standard KNVB methodology. He claims he is more eclectic and kids in Holland are over coached.

He is keener on the Brazilian based model for kids up to age 12.

A guy I know is a Vikings futsal coach. We'll call him coach P. He was sent to Brazil for training.

P said futsal is the only formal form of competition football played for kids aged 5-12. He also said 11 v 11 for outdoor football starts at age 12-13 in Brazil.

There is some consideration for this proposal in KNVB circles.

I certainly like it.

Playing all futsal and football in 4v4 SSGs, with goalies or without, all the way up to age 12 in a 1-2-1 diamond formation, is ideal.

For the 4v4 SSG model, show players a 2 metres x 2 metres grid.

Demonstrate a 4v4 SSG using cones.

Set out a diamond shape using using the same coloured cones, eg. white. This can be labelled a 1-2-1. It also incorporates the width and depth which was an integral component of KNVB.

Have the players sitting around the 2m x 2m grid it with some at the back kneeling.

Explain that when a team has the ball they must open passing lanes for other players to pass to.

Explain when they don't have the ball they must close down the passing lanes of the other team. They also need the first defender pressurising the player with the the ball. Initially this is a quick movement, slowing down at the last instant.

The second and third defenders should be two covering the two flankers in the diamond shape.


!_____________________________________________!

..............................X


.....X ........................................... ... ....X



............................X

!______________________________________________!

The solid lines are two sides of the 2m x 2m grid.

The Xs are the players in the diamond shape of 1-2-1.

There is one forward, two flankers and one back.

One can add goals to each end.

The demonstration grid is 2 metres by 2 metres.

This helps players understand the role.

Even get players to stand in the 2m x 2m grid on top of the cones in the diamond formation to demonstrate 1-2-1.

Then get the same players to stand in a stationary position in the SSG grid in the same diamond 1-2-1 formation.

Then play this formation in a 4 v 4 SSG in a 10m x 10 m grid, 15m x 15m grid, 20m x 20 m grid, depending on age.

This 1-2-1 diamond can be extrapolated to 11 v 11 using the variations of the 4-3-3. It is often useful to use 7 v 7 as a precursor to the 11v11.

In the pre Baan/Berger epoch, FFA curriculum was really, really nebulous with this type of explicit instruction. There is probably still some carry over of this from even our top FFA Australian coaches.

your missing the point of whole part whole methodology.
here is my take, you have identified in a game that the players are unable to beat the oppo in 1 v 1 situations.
Training session starts with a ball per player warm up, the warm up incudes getting the players to perform step overs, scissors etc. We then move to a 1 v 1 game situation, pitch 30 x 20 with a goal at each end, split players up into 2 groups, give a number to each player . Ask what the players coud do in a 1 v 1 situation to beat the oppo, move onto the 1 v 1 numbers game related (ie opposed practice) , players behind goal line, coach calls number and feeds ball in from half way. Progress the numbers game to 2 players called, they now have a decision to pass shot or dribble. Move onto normal game with all players on , extra goal for performing 1 v1 move in the coaches opinion the right area , right time, normal goals count as well. Finsh with free play game.

I'll elaborate on this later, Dirk.



What you have proposed probably has too many players waiting around watching other players inactively. You have too many inactive players wasting valuable time on the training track.

This is probably an archetypal FFA pre Berger/Baan Australian drill.

Edited by Decentric: 23/4/2011 03:44:44 PM

Edited by Decentric: 18/2/2013 11:18:56 PM

10 players or less one pitch, 12 players 2 pitches of 6 ,

All sessions are imperfect, some more than others


one could say that by doing a majority isolated technique session is a waste of players time as that is something they could do at home, if you have the players then play a game


Edited by dirkvanadidas: 23/4/2011 02:48:53 PM

Looks like I have time after all.

Lets look at your hypothetical scenario in a KNVB match context of the four stage training module.

The match identified main problem was that the team were unable to dribble past opponents in the game.

Four stage module.

1. Reinforce individual problem identified in a match and work on corrective technical exercises to overcome weakness.
2. 4v4
3. 7v7.
4. 11v11

Was the problem dribbling in tight spaces with lateral techniques, or more dribbling in open spaces like wings?




Next try some 4v4 games in small grids.

Instead of prescribing minimum number of passes for scoring, decree that players in a four person team must beat at least one opposition player before a team can score.
Goals are scored by dribbling over any line in a square, maybe even putting the sole of the foot on the ball to score a goal as a player takes it over the line.
4v4 in this SSG dribbling game provides some width and depth.

With the team's dribbling weakness it may not be as important to go to the 7v7 and 11 v 11 progressions.












Edited by Decentric: 23/4/2011 10:51:31 PM

Edited by Decentric: 18/2/2013 11:21:26 PM

I intend to show variations of the 4-3-3 over time in the next week. One forumite , who did the FFA Senior Licence claimed it was essentially an attacking formation. I can also be used defensively too, with a number of positional adjustments. I'll demonstrate it with markers over the next few weeks.

One can have the flat midfield 4-3-3 as Barcelona did in 1996.

One can have the current preferred Dutch model with two defensive screeners in a midfield triangle. This safeguards against the modern phenomenon of effective accelerated attacks. This was manifest in the last European championships.

To make it more defensive again, the 4-2-3-1 can be utilised by moving the wingers further back. This can also present as a 3-3-3-1 by pushing a full back up to attack. It can be also changed to the defensive Christmas tree formation of a 4-3-2-1 by changing a midfielder from the attacking midfield line to the defensive midfield line.

To make it more attacking one can use the midfield triangle with one screener and two attacking midfielder scenario.

The midfield triangle with one screener can be converted to a 4-5-1 by pushing the two wingers further back in a line with the two attacking midfielders.

This attacking midfield triangle formation can also be adjusted by having a back four with a 3:1 system.

The back four can also manifest as a diamond. This can also look like a 3-4-3 in attack and a 3-4-2 -1 in defence.

There is also a cross over to the 4-4-2 diamond, or 4-3-1-2, which a few Dutch trained coaches like Baan, Arnold and occasionally Verbeek, eclectics, use the 4-4-2 diamond shaped midfield. The attacking three revert, with the central striker playing deeper and two forwards playing narrower.

So the 4-3-3 is a flexible system, offensively and defensively, even though any team under pressure can lose their shape.


Edited by Decentric: 7/5/2011 11:55:14 AM

IMO at ages 10 and up
The 433 should be played as 2 attacking mids and wing backs.
The FFA suggests playing with 2 defensive mids
I think my region already struggles in attacking prowess

Just dusted off my calculator.

The net result is:

Seven of your (11) ten year olds should be groomed as defenders?

That'll get the kids flocking to sockah. :lol:

This woud never have happened under past SA coaching philosophies.

Hi Judy Free, what is your background in Football?

Cheers

Just quickly, decentric.

When you are running your sessions do you make (direct) reference to KNVB terms, jargon and TLA's to the players?

And, have you ever handed out any written documention to these kids?

11 v 11 games should soon be started with 13 year olds according to FFA's Building Blocks.



You just don't seem to learn do you, regarding the KNVB preferred midfield triangle?

Why is the two screener system used in preference?

What is a considerable strength of contemporary teams for the two screener system to have been used more often than in the past?

If you had done some contemporary football theory you would know why. But you haven't, and continue to refuse to do so.



Edited by Decentric: 9/5/2011 12:34:05 AM

Edited by Decentric: 18/2/2013 11:22:40 PM

The 4-3-3 with the two screener system for the midfield triangle is harder to teach than the the one screener midfield triangle.

Andy J. came up with an interesting way to teach the 4-3-3 with the two screener system.

He used it in 4 lines as a 4-2-3-1.

I haven't heard that anywhere else. It certainly has merit.

I'm going to lay all the 4-3-3 variations out in this thread over the next few weeks. There seems to be some misunderstanding about the
4-3-3 and its flexibility as an attacking and defensive system.

Edited by Decentric: 9/5/2011 12:31:46 AM

You non answer to this is worrying.

One thing we've confirmed on here, without equivocation, is that you are no more than a text book coach. That's not even up for discussion. Nothing else in your kitbag, 'cept a pile of dog-eared and costly documentation.

I sssume your sessions with the "mobile school of sockah theory" go something like this:

"children, today I will be teaching you about contemporary methodology"
"this methodology is what made [insert name of current world superstar]"
"Michel Owen was not coached under this methodology, hence the reason why he's a dud and life failure"
"and Zidane could have been significantly better, if only he had access to my email address"
"now, I shall be introducing you to KNVB, TIC, 433, midfield diamonds, bowls, yadda yadda"
"I shall also be pointing you to the Matthews cut and the Kleberson double twist in pike position - see page 147 of the prepared texts"
"this will be followed by a short written examination -marks will be deducted for incorrect spelling and grammar"
"next session will be by correspondence - I'll shall email you the PDF's anon"

A tip for you decentric. Kid's aren't totally stupid, regardless of their playing ability. Won't take them long to spot a dullard fraud. I'd suggest you keep that school very mobile. Repeat customers might become an issue.



Edited by judy free: 9/5/2011 08:10:02 AM

'](*,)


This is the most fatuous troll I've seen to a post I've made on the interweb in five years. If you genuinely mean it, you must be a dead set moron who lacks any cognitive capacity whatsoever to critically evaluate or interpret.

I have 25 years plus experience and have had success teaching kids to write, read, think and become numerate. I've even had other teachers come into my room to observe sound teaching practice, because of the success I have with students 6-8 years old. I've even assisted other teachers to train.

Of course I don't use lots of jargon speaking to young kids. I have to simplify everything and break things own into sequential and incremental steps. I have to use simple, concise, clear language. I also taught kids learning English as a second language in the middle- east. I also coached them in football.

These classroom techniques extrapolate to football coaching.

All those years of teaching infant kids 30 hours a week equate to useful practical experience to assist children toacquire football skills/game intelligence on the training track.

It is the same scenario for any professional teacher, like Mikey S, Two Dogs, Claudmiarron, Indio, etc, if they coach football.

My communication skills on the training track are sound, acquired over years doing this professionally as a teacher, particularly with players age 12 down to 6 years old.
I've spent 25 years plus dealing with that age group every day, forty weeks per year, with considerable success at work. It would be the same for most other professional primary teachers if they had played and trained in football, then coached kids.

One of the greatest inherent buzzes I get is that how quickly the kids I've coached in the last few years are learning. If the kids are nice too and appreciative, it is even better.

Any of us with this skill set can still learn from others though.
[/










Edited by Decentric: 26/6/2012 11:27:47 PM

[i]Edited by Decentric: 18/2/2013 11:24:57 PM

This is the 4-3-3 with the flat midfield which is fairly easy to set out compared to the midfield triangular formations.

It was used by Juventus when they won the Champions' League in 1996.


Flat midfield 4-3-3


....X................X...............X.................X.....


..............X..............X................X


....X.......................X.........................X

Edited by Decentric: 17/5/2011 10:19:58 PM

Another mystery solved.

Thank you, decentric.

FMD:lol: :lol: :lol:

This is the preferred system that KNVB suggest starting with.


The 4-3-3 midfield triangle with two screeners and one attacking midfielder.


...X................X...............X.................X.....

................X........................X

............................X

....X.......................X.........................X



To develop the team playing the shape, use the back seven a lot in games against 2 players increasing to 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 attacking players. Two is used to limit the amount of offensive pressure as the back seven are learning the shape.


...X................X...............X.................X.....

................X........................X

............................X


When the ball is on the left, the midfield triangle rotates. The inverse would operate on the right.

------X
---------------X

O--------X

O denotes ball


This two screener system was deployed to prevent the accelerated attacking capabilities of contemporary football teams.

Edited by Decentric: 17/5/2011 10:20:59 PM

A number of coaches including state youth coaches, have found the one screener midfield triangle is easier to utitilise than the two screener triangle with players learning the system.

On eoption set out by Andy J was to try the 4-2-3-1 to teach the 4-3-3 with the two screener triangle. The four lines model has merit.

Th eincremental stages a can work well onteh trainjg ground with the two screener system, but under match conditions can break down more easily than hte one screener triangle for teams familiarising themselves withthe sytem..


4-3-3 with the two screener triangle in midfield.

...X................X...............X.................X.....

................X........................X

............................X

....X.......................X.........................X

THis 4-3-3 variation can become this as a 4-2-3-1 by moving the wingers back to the attacking midfield line. The 4-2-3-1 is a more defensive variation of the 4-3-3 version with midfield screeners in the midfield triangle.


4-2-3-1

...X................X...............X.................X.....

................X........................X

.....X.....................X......................X

...........................X......

One can also use the 4-3-3-in attack and the 4-2-3-1 in defence.



KNVB recomend the ideal shape to be compact in a 40 metre by metre square depending on the size of the pitch.

The ideal distancing between the lines and between the players within the lines is 10 to 15 metres.

STFA Striker has just finished his FFA Senior Licence. He claimed that coaches were confused about the 4-3-3 at the end of the course. He said he thought it was essentially an attacking system. These are two more conservative/defensive variations of the 4-3-3.



Edited by Decentric: 17/5/2011 10:22:19 PM

THis is the more attacking version of the 4-3-3. The triangle which has one screener and two attacking mids.

The 4-3-3 with one screener in the midfield triangle.


..X................X...............X.................X.....

............................X

................X......................X

....X.......................X.........................X


Empirically a few of us have found this easier to coach. The single midfield screener seems to be able to hold position more easily than the twin screener system.

Of course like the two screener midfield system it should be taught as a defensive seven against limited pressure from attacking players.


X................X...............X.................X.....

............................X

................X......................X

Again it is best to have the seven playing against 2 offensive players, then 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7, as the ability to hold the shape improves. The 7v7 is the precursor to the full 11 v 11 one screener triangular midfield shape in 4-3-3.


When the ball is on the left, the triangle needs to rotate. The inverse applies when the ball is on the right for the midfield triangle.


-----------X

----X
O-------------X

O denotes ball.

Edited by Decentric: 17/5/2011 10:49:49 PM

The 4-3-3 with one screener in the midfield triangle.


..X................X...............X.................X.....

............................X

................X......................X

....X.......................X.........................X


Now to make this formation more defensive one can move the two wingers back to the attacking midfield line. The two attacking midfielders tuck in more centrally.

This assumes the 4-5-1 formation in the 4-1-4-1 manifestation.


..X................X...............X.................X.....

............................X

..X................X................X............... X

...........................X


Hiddink sometimes used this formation for Australia. He used this 4-3-3 variation in attack and the 4-5-1 variation in defence.

Generally Verbeek used the 4-2-3-1. Sometimes the team manifested as a 4-3-3 in attack, but with two screeners creating the midfield triangle in midfield.

Hiddink also used the two screener option on occasions too.

Edited by Decentric: 17/5/2011 10:48:50 PM

There are many more variations to come yet for the 4-3-3. I'll post them when I have time.

I can't believe the guys who received their FFA Senior Licences were so nebulous about the formation if it was taught correctly.

Pim and Guus could use 4-3-3 very effectively as a defensive system!!!!

Pimm's 7-3-0 system has been written into aussie sockah folklore.

4-2-3-1

...X................X...............X.................X.....

................X........................X

.....X.....................X......................X

...........................X......

The 4-2-3-1 can be made more defensive again by inverting the the 2 and 3 in midfield to become a 4-3-2-1.

This is also known as the Christmas tree formation. Verbeek used it against Japan, in Japan, when Australia only needed a draw. Verbeek played Culina, Grella and Valeri in the defensive midfield line. It is not 4-3-3, but it is a derivative of 4-2-3-1, which is a defensive 4-3-3.

4-3-2-1


...X................X...............X.................X.....

...........X...............X..................X

................X......................X

...........................X......

4-2-3-1

...X................X...............X.................X.....

................X........................X

.....X.....................X......................X

...........................X......




One way Verbeek made the 4-2-3-1 more attacking was sometimes to make it a 3-3-3-1. He stacked the midfield. He moved Wilkshire up on the wide right as an extra midfielder. Carney tucked in to become a left centre back in a back three.


3-3-3-1

.......X....................X..................(C).X.


.(W).X.....................X.....................X.....


.....X.....................X......................X


...........................X......

The 4-3-3 midfield triangle with two screeners and one attacking midfielder.


.The 4-3-3 midfield triangle with two screeners and one attacking midfielder.


...X................X...............X.................X.....

................X........................X

............................X

....X.....................X.........................X



The 4-3-3 midfield triangle with two screeners and one attacking midfielder, can become a 4-3-3 with a back 1:3. Netherlands played this formation at the 1978 World Cup final when Krol played behind Brandts.
Argentina played a 4-3-3 with the one screener midfield triangle in the same game.

4-3-3 with a back 1:3.

...........................X

......X...................X................X.....

................X.....................X
............................X

....X......................X......................X




Edited by Decentric: 22/5/2011 05:40:17 PM

.The 4-3-3 midfield triangle with two screeners and one attacking midfielder.


...X................X...............X.................X.....

................X........................X

............................X

....X.......................X.........................X


This formation can also become a 3:1 defensive line, or a midfield diamond, which can be interpreted as a 3-4-3. Ajax won the European Champions' League with this formation in 1995.


3-4-3




...X........................X..........................X.....

............................X

................X........................X

...........................X

....X.....................X.........................X


Edited by Decentric: 22/5/2011 05:41:19 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faSqc5va4Ls


As I reiterate the aforementioned Barca Directional control is a great passing exercise with both feet from junior level up to Barcelona senior level from Barca Academy.





The next step is a rondo like this for young, relatively unskilled players. From steps 1 down to step 9 encourage one and two touch passing. The defensive players can gain a more touches if dribbling over the line is the instruction when they win the ball.

Step 1

_____________________________________________

----------------X



X---------------------------------X




------------------Xo
______________________________________________

X = Players.
o= Ball

I can't mark the grid on the right side using the IT I have. 12 metres long for each side of the square is okay.

Maybe have players marked with a cone behid each one to play in a diamond. KNVB stipulate players do not stand in corners as it is too easy to mark players.

Step 2


If players are comfortable extrapolating the Barca Directional Control to playing this in a diamond add a defensive player P.

P=pig in the middle.
____________________________________________

----------------X



X----------------P-----------------X




------------------Xo
____________________________________________

The game is now for the X players with ball to stop P(PIg) from winning it.

One canmake a couple of rules here. Whether one wants to encourage P to simply use defensive skills, or encourage P to use dribbling skills, or shooting skills.

Defensive skills for P.
Encourage P to stand sideways, in crouching, jockeying form, able to change direction quickly, on the toes. My relative will be back from US college football in a few weeks with some even better jockeying techniques. I'll add them as I learn them.
All player P needs to do is win ball to change places with person who lost ball X.

Dribbling skills- ask P (PIG) to dribble over line and put foot on bal with sole of foot if they intercept ball from Xs.

Shooting skills- set up goals for P to shoot at they intercept ball. Make four goals in the middle of each line of the square.



Edited by Decentric: 1/6/2011 01:14:40 PM

____________________________________________



X---------------------------------X


-----------------P

------------------Xo
____________________________________________

Step 3

Now have only three players in a triangle. A Repeat Step 2, but with three players. Emphasise for players in possession of ball ( X ) not to stay in corners.



Edited by Decentric: 1/6/2011 12:32:39 PM

___________________________________________


X


-----------------P

------------------Xo
____________________________________________

Step 4

Not necessarily the next sequential step, but this is a great anaerobic exercise for fitness, have two players against one pig ( P ) in this rondo.

Players ( X ) must move into space to create passing lanes. This is much easier for pig ( P ) to gain possession.

____________________________________________

----------------X



X----------------P-----------------X


----------------P

------------------Xo
____________________________________________

Step 5

Add two defensive players if things are going well with the easier practices. We now have a 4v2 SSG.


Specific instructions can be given to defensive players (Ps) depending on coaches' instructions whether zonal or man marking.

This was a major difference between KNVB training, and sessions I've seen taken by top FFA coaches. The KNVB had very specific instructions for defensive players.

One local NTC coach claims I have no credibility because I did a KNVB Certificate, not a Licence. He can't see the difference in quality/methodology because he hasn't had first hand exposure to both KNVB and contemporary FFA. He is an A Licence holder too, the second top FFA qual. below FFA Pro Licence.

Step 6

This isn't really step 6, but Liverpool coaches did a lot of work with this formation to improve passing skills for European Champions' League competition.

The player in the middle worked with the outside players in the diamond to pass in triangular formation. Originally have no pIg ( P) in step 6. Use cones players can step on to mark the positions for players.

____________________________________________

----------------X



X---------------X-----------------X




-----------------Xo
____________________________________________











____________________________________________

----------------X



X---------------X-----------------X


----------------P

-----------------Xo
____________________________________________

Step 7

Add a defensive player P(Pig).

5v1 SSG.








____________________________________________

----------------X



X---------------X-----------------X
---P

----------------P

-----------------Xo
____________________________________________


Step 8

Add another Pig ( P ) to make 2.

5v2 SSG.

Edited by Decentric: 1/6/2011 12:57:26 PM

Edited by Decentric: 1/6/2011 01:00:41 PM

Edited by Decentric: 1/6/2011 01:16:05 PM

____________________________________________

----------------X



X---------------X-----------------X
---P---------------------------P

----------------P

-----------------Xo
____________________________________________


Step 9

Now have three defenders/pigs ( P ).

5v3 SSG.

This is a really useful last step.

One can have the first defender applying pressure on the ball. The second and third defenders try to close down passing lanes to prevent Xs from receiving ball. Defenders need to form a compact formation to close down passing lanes.

It is a very good numerical combination to coach possession of the ball and when the other team has possession of the ball. There is also width and depth. Players also receive a lot of useful touches in mini-match scenarios.



This can easily be converted to 4v4. I have six KNVB 4v4 SSGs somewhere on Football For Everyone thread. I'll post them on here when I find them.


These sequential rondos are integral to KNVB and contemporary Barca practice. They are an essential component of Football For Everyone coaching sessions.



Edited by Decentric: 1/6/2011 01:11:38 PM

http://www.bettersoccermorefun.com/dwtext/knvbgmes.htm


This is the link for KNVB 4v4 SSGs.

If you use the steps on this thread for SSGs you are not going to go wrong.

It is all KNVB practice with some refinements form Barca Academy.




Edited by Decentric: 1/6/2011 03:47:24 PM

http://www.uefa.com/trainingground/training/skills/video/videoid=903004.html?autoplay=true

This is another video with the one in the aforementioned post, and the one in the following post which is close to a comprehensive short passing programme, if added to the KNVB rondos and KNVB 4v4 SGGs .

http://www.soccer-training-info.com/control_and_pass.asp

This is the more attacking version of the 4-3-3. The triangle which has one screener and two attacking mids.

The 4-3-3 with one screener in the midfield triangle.


..X................X...............X.................X.....

............................X

................X......................X

....X.......................X.........................X



This is for Neverwazza. He wants to know the diference between a 4-3-3 and a 4-4-2 with a midfield diamond. Eclectic Dutch trained coaches like Verbeek (occasionally), Arnold and Baan use it.

4-4-2 with a midfield diamond.


...X................X...............X.................X.....

............................X

................X........................X

............................X

...........X..................................X


The central striker moves back into midfield.

The two wingers tuck in to make a two person line at the point of the attack.

Edited by Decentric: 1/6/2011 09:46:37 PM

Decentric, I think you will find you need to explain how the two formations perform their transitions differently as each formation makes use of similar passing lanes but look to achieve their goals (ie pressing, counter attack, building of play) differently.

BTW, from a KNVB view point, what do you think of the 3-5-2 formations?

GA, in two sentences, you've asked me for some massively detailed questions!!!!!!!!!

:shock:

This is the question with least detail.

KNVB considers that 3-5-2 is impractical for any level of football apart from professional teams. We didn't address it in depth, because it was essentially a youth coaching course.

KNVB consider the level of stamina and fitness required to play a 3-5-2 is too difficult for the wing backs, who are the outside of the five in midfield, in any level of football, apart from elite professional level.

I saw one experienced youth coach on here advocate it as a good system for 10 year olds. My co-coach at FFE also thought it was good too for 10 year olds in the past.

Edited by Decentric: 15/6/2011 11:36:53 PM

Why would a 352 require more stamina from its wide players than the wide players roles in a 433?

How much did you pay for these low level answers from these low level dutch bozos?

Did you not consider challenging their answer, or at least asking for further detail?

Pressing is a term applied to teams co-ordinating pressure off the ball to opposing teams when the opposition is in possession of the ball. It doesn't matter which of the aforementioned formations is used, but pressing principles are used regardless of formations. I suppose the more aggressive pressing models are used in conjunction with the most attacking formations of 4-3-3 and 4-4-2 with a diamond shaped midfield.

The full press.

Barcelona applies this relentlessly to opponents. This is where the forwards maintain co-ordinated pressure when the other team has the ball deep in their defensive half. As the forwards pressure their opponents, players in the midfield line/s also apply marking pressure as the defender plays the ball. The aim is to make the pitch as small as possible for the opposition when they have the ball.

In the A League they often apply full pressing, but it is not as intensive, aggressive, well co-ordinated, compact and sustained as Barcelona's. Korea and Japan sometimes apply this to the Socceroos.

A League full pressing often allows distance between the lines. Hence, A League players can learn to play in too much space.

The onus is on individuals to close down space quickly as ball is being played, within team co -ordinated pressing, but delay at the last moment, maintaining good defensive body shape in low position. Being side on is good to change direction if opponent tries to dribble past you.

I'll do the half press and partial pressing later.






Edited by Decentric: 16/6/2011 01:22:41 PM

If you see the 4-3-3 formations outlined in the aforementioned posts, there are four wide players.

In a 3-5-2, there are two wide players.

Well, you did ask, GA. :lol:

I understand the way the full, half and partial press are used to pressure opponents who have control of the ball in order to achieve a turn over either from a tackle, interception or miss control/wayward pass. What I mean is the way that the 4-4-2 vs the 4-3-3 arranges itself in order to achieve this goal as opposed to what the goal itself is.

I have noticed that a 4-3-3 will often have players perform a zonal system of pressure whereby they suffocate the opponents passing lanes, creating an interception or wayward pass, and often a 4-4-2 will attempt to isolate the ball carrier through man to man marking and force the ball to be turned over via a tackle or due to a miss control by the ball carrier/receiver.

Hmm not happy with the way I have worded that but can't be bothered at the moment correcting it.

This is my understanding of the formation as well, other when it is used as a lop sided system.
I favour it lined up as:

Which of course is not entirely accurate a description and I can see why KNVB views it as a system that is better suited to fully professional teams.

I haven't noticed these differences. If you have identified them, you are well ahead of me!!!!

I attended a presentation on zonal marking versus player to player marking, but I didn't think it was related to a particular formation.

Player to player defence can vary on what the opposition is posing as an attacking combination/formation.


I will describe the half press later, even though you know what it is. Adelaide United deployed it brilliantly in the ACL.

I don't think they are formation related, but there seems to be a tendency for certain formations to play their presses differently.

Is that it?

Anything else?
#-o

Hi decentric
Next week I will see a top dutch coach go through his drills with some teams.
I am sorry but I don’t think he will be any better in his assessments than the local coaches.
But I will watch carefully and keep an open mind.

Great stuff.

Keep us posted.

I'm not sure if you are being facetious or not, but if you aren't, then this will explain it.


3-5-2

.........X..........X...........X


.X......................................X

........ X..........X.........X


...........X...............X


The central part of the midfield can be arranged as a line like this one, or as a midifeld triangle with two screeners and one more advanced midfielder.

The 3-5-2 like this was deployed by Barcelona in 1994. Brisbane Roar have adopted this formation when attacking at times. Paarteluu stays back and the full backs go further forwards.

Compared to the 4-3-3s delineated earlier in this hread, where there are two wide players on each flank, in the 3-5-2 there is only one wide player on each flank. The amount of work each wide player has to do in a 3-5-2 is phenomenal for amateur players.

Here are the details of the KNVB English language course in the Netherlands

Course information
From 5 - 17 August, 2011 the KNVB Academy organizes an International Coaching Course for
participants from all over the world. The Course content is designed by the Academy of the Royal
Netherlands Football Association and all elements in the course are updated to the latest Trainingand
Coaching principles. The previous editions of the International courses (1999 through 2010)
attracted in total 330 coaches from 73 countries. Should you be interested, do not hesitate to register
in time. The number of participants is limited to 25.
Course level
The level of the course is comparable with UEFA B- (Basic) Course, with some elements of A- and
Pro-level (especially the analysis of Pro-matches and special topics are on highest level).
Participants in this course will receive a ‘Participation Certificate’. There will be no formal testing on
knowledge and skills and coaches do not receive a diploma, due to the different entrance levels of the
participants and the specific and non-comparable contents of this program in relation to other
coaching programs.


I've cut and pasted this to this section. Thanks Dirk.

I would recomemnd it to anyone.

You will receive excellent instruction from KNVB instructors fluent in English. I'm not sure if the French, Italian or Brazilian football federations offer the same coaching courses in English. All the stuff you will learn will be useful in the FFA curriculum, but will have been imparted by the primary source, not some Aussie instructors interpreting it. Even if one dies FFA courses one usually gains new knowledge from attending any course/seminar.

KNVB will make considerable difference to most people's knowledge base. If you do it though, expect a few stakeholders in the Australian football milieu to try and discredit what you've done. Also, some coaches will see it as a threat. Most people in the football comunity will be only too pleased for you to pass on to footballers what you've learnt.

I have even had someone from state FFA tell me that KNVB has little value in Tasmania because most people in the Tassie football milieu don't know what KNVB is!!!!!

My counter argument was that if any eminent instructors arrive in this state from KNVB, Clarefontaine, Coverciano or the Brazilian Football Federation, then nobody should attend their seminars because they have never heard of them.

Another FFA stakeholder, rolled his eyes back in his head when he heard his FFA counterpart proffer this perspective.
:roll:

Another benefit is that the Dutch instructors had a very dry sense of humour. According to a Dutch born mate this is a typical trait of the Dutch. The KNVB instructors at the English language course will be very confident imparting what they do too.



Edited by Decentric: 17/6/2011 02:30:47 PM

All well and good on paper, decentric. However, you need to take a step back and keep firmly in mind that sockah is played on a pitch approx 100 x 70, between 22 players. If you create a numerical advantange somewhere on the pitch, you are, of course, at a numerical disadvantage elsewhere on the pitch. Capishe? Good coaches will always exploit this. FWIW I would have thought a three player midfield would test the stamina/endurance of any amateur at any age, with and without the ball. Using Barcelona as an example for why 433 should be prefered is clearly a ridiculous position for anyone to take.



Edited by judy free: 17/6/2011 11:04:14 AM

I said Barcelona appled 3-5-2 in 1994. Barca exemplified 3-5-2 then.

4-3-3 can still be used for developing players. Nevertheless, I prefer the Brazilian model where 11 v 11 doesn't occur until 13 years of age.
All Brazilian football under that age is 5 v 5 with keepers, or futsal.

4-3-3 requires less running for the two wide players on each side.

You would feel a lot more confident teaching 4-3-3 if you had been trained in it. The incremental stages are important. Maybe a trip to the Netherlands in early August could be an option at KNVB HQ in Zeist?
;)

But more running from other players in parts of the park where you created numerical disadvantage.

A 442 (flat midfield) would also require "less running" for the two wide players.....but that's besides the point.



No need to pad out your response with guff and hyperbole. Try keeping your focus on the topic.

The midfield triangular players in central midfield would have negligible increased running duties compared to the wing backs in the 3-5-2.

A flat 4-4-2's attacking midfield wide players would have similar running distances to the wingers in the attacking line of a 4-3-3.

The 3-5-2 is a useful temporary formation in attack from a 4-4-2.

The wider centre backs in the defensive line of the 3-5-2 are disadvantaged by the attacking wide players of other formations. The 3-5-2 was pretty popular in the mid eighties, but has been superseded as its weaknesses have eventually been exploited.

With the 4-2-3-1, Verbeek sometimes moved to three at the back, pushing Wilkshire into midfield in Australia's attacking phases of games. This created a 3-3-3-1, or 3-4-3 in attack. Defensively three at the back can be exposed to width. Wilkshire quickly moved back to a back four when the other team gained possession.

I'm not sure on which sound methodological basis 3-5-2 is recommended for junior/youth footballers. Which national federations recommend it as a development system for junior/youth in 2011?

Rubbish.

You're assuming they are working up and down the line no matter what part of the park the ball maybe, which is not the case. Perhaps if you'd been correctly schooled in this formation you'd have a better understanding. A more rounded education might lead you to thinking outside of the tiny square you've backed yourself into.

Your pre planned formation can take any shape it wants to during the course of a game. This is often dictated by the quality of the oppostion, both at a team and individual level. Any coach who claims his team always maintains shape (442, 433, 352 or whatever) is a dullard and a liar.




Edited by judy free: 17/6/2011 03:21:39 PM

I don’t hold out much hope.
I have no doubt he will be able to see the skill and the lack of skill.
I don’t think he will be able to tell the truth about the lack of skill of some of the more popular players. And how would you say to players who have been selected based on speed and height that they don’t have enough skill.
If he does he will not be the first Dutch coach to be lynched for telling the truth.

:-k :-k :-k

The wide players are going to cover the ground for the requisite width if the ball is in defence or attack. Even if they tuck in, they are still covering a lot of ground.

I can't remember the national federations you suggested play 3-5-2 as their preferred development formation.

:lol:

Clueless.

This is clearly an ongoing personal attack nothing to do with the subject.
I suggest the mods ban you.

One thing about you aussie coaches you never learn and can not change,
You have been Banned once or twice before chips

Go ahead, do it.

However, please excuse my non shallots.

So far it has been interesting.

I just wanted to comment on the amount of running between a 4-4-2 and a 4-3-3 for a wide midfielder.

For my amateur club team, I've been playing on the right midfield in both of these formations (although we probably set up in more of a 4-5-1 then a 4-3-3, we interpret and use the formation defensively when we have to) and I've found that the 4-3-3 requires a lot more running back and forth than the 4-4-2 does.

This would be more to do with the way my team plays, we aren't particularly skilled and tend to get outplayed by technical opponents, which means as the right midfielder I'm back helping out the defence a lot, getting men behind the ball, and thus when the ball goes long for the lone striker (we play a fair bit of kick and chase crap, as much as we talk about not doing that) it is gut busting work running the length of the field trying to support the striker, where as in a 4-4-2, because there are more bodies up front, when the ball inevitably gets hoofed long, there are people up there to hold it up for a while until I can get up the field to support.

This really has nothing to do with youth training and I think if you got a bunch of kids to play the system properly (i.e. Building out from the back and moving up the field as a team rather than booting it long to a striker who is marked by 3/4 defenders) than you wouldn't have these problems, but I thought I'd relate my experiences there.

Thanks
we don't often here from current players

Decentric
Looks like these Dutch coaches know their stuff and are willing to make the tough calls.
My hope is now that they will make their opinions known to all who count.
Big call though.

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) \:d/ \:d/ \:d/ \:d/

Good news about the Dutch coaches.

Hope they make their opinions known to those who count.

No unfortunately they have not.
No direct feed back to the kids who failed.
Imo the kids who have been selected in the past are entitled to some constructive feed back. Not through their coaches but directly to them.
It is the least they could do.

Hardly the job of a coach/selector to provide psychological support to pissed orf parents.

Your son has been selected, but his mates have missed out. Now, krones, prepare yourself for being accused of interfering with the selection process. :lol:

Small-time suburban sockah politics, gawd bless the lot of 'em.



Edited by judy free: 4/7/2011 08:29:19 AM

what?

After paying $8000+ over 4 years and never getting your son selected i believe the players and the parents are owed the truth.

You want a money back guarantee?

maybe the kid was just not good enough.

deal with it.

Just a professional assessment.
Not too much for the parents to ask for after $8000 and 4 years.



Edited by krones3: 4/7/2011 12:30:48 PM

With what?

that the kids not good enough.

I believe a little bit of soul searching along with a good long hard stare in the mirror usually sorts these people out.

When their little johnny has finally flown the coop and has moved on to sex, drug, alco and debauchery, they will think back to those selfish days when they tried to live their dreams through their kid. And, then wonder if they may have been better advised to spend that $8k on education.

Who?

All these kids are getting a good and expensive education.
What they are not getting is good coaching and this would be shown with an assessment.
Unfortunately this is a legacy of Paul Lontons tenure.

Edited by krones3: 4/7/2011 01:35:58 PM

Sorry, but I don't believe that for a second.

I have vast experience dealing with rabid parents and know exactly where their priorities lie.

8 out of 13 go to private schools

In theory , the distances covered should be similar. The distance the flankers in a flat midfield 4-4-2 cover should be similar to the wide forwards in the 4-3-3, even if Reedy's team play closer to to a 4-5-1.