oright einstein if you want to do something about it then go into politics or even better go work for the UN

What a shit response.

Indeed, he's really coming across as a five year old now.

just because i disagree with you and respect the sovreignty of the state yet i come across as a five year old. hmm ok :roll:

im not the one talking in hindsight about what i would have done during the holocaust.
like i said if you think you are that pragmatic to make a difference go take up politics.

you speak like an academic who is camped inside his office detailing his perfect plan on how to save the world.

the world is not black and white so you need to go outside and smell the roses.

Edited by Socawho: 29/4/2015 11:21:29 PM

Edited by Socawho: 29/4/2015 11:25:29 PM

No one is disputing Indonesia's authority, of course they have the right to exact the death penalty where they see fit.

However, this doesn't make it morally or ethically justifiable. Just because it is enshrined in law doesn't make it right.

The hallmark of a society is it's justice system, and Indonesia has proved that it is a barbaric and backward country that still believes in overzealous punishment that does not work.

Make no mistake, Jokowi doesn't give a shit about the impact that drugs have. Why would he have granted clemency to the two murderers then?

No, Jokowi has to appear "strong" to the blood-thirsty dumb island peasants that constitute the majority of his country.

Edited by 433: 30/4/2015 12:06:04 AM

No I see your argument as misinformed and ignorant but nonetheless you are entitled to it.

The reason why I called you a five year old, is after RC, Robbos & than myself pointed out a massive flaw in your argument, instead of actually defending your argument, you replied just like a five year old would. If you feel so strongly about respecting the sovereignty of the state, perhaps you should actually debate the issue when others make valid points.

I can only assume you reacted this way as it finally dawned on you, how ignorant your views actually are.

My point wasn't about discussing hypothetical's, it was in regards to the principle that just because a state makes the law does not mean its right.

Now I agree that countries should have the authority to make their own laws, however when it comes to the death penalty (regardless of the crime) no state across the world should be able to carry out executions.

It has been shown time and time again that the death penalty is a pointless exercise and achieves nothing.

Edited by Roar_Brisbane: 30/4/2015 01:02:24 AM

10/10 post, especially the bolded.

If drugs were decriminalised in Australia or indeed globally and those affected by horribly addicting drugs like heroin were offered help by health programs instead of fear from police, none of this would have ever happened as there would be no market (inflated in value due to it's illegality) to serve, but as you say that doesn't sell copies of the Herald Sun.

Yes, the fact that these executions are so obviously motivated by politics rather than justice makes it stink so much worse than it already does.

Fucking armoured vehicles and fighter jets patrolling ahead for their transport to the island of their execution says it all.

I never supported the coalition of the willing, I do support the troops in Iraq now because they have been invited. On Est Timor, that was handled very well IMO, though the outcome favoured Australia.

Oh you draw a long bow, totally different and irrelevant, the Jew were persecuted for being Jew, there was never a law against it, just some left wing Nazi decided he wanted a master race.

The law pre-existed in Indonesia way before these two decided to smuggle Heroin (into a foreign Country), they got that sentence in a court of law, its the way the world works, yes I'd like to see the law changed, but it is what it is

I agree, he is a new President and must show strong leadership in moments like this

its not just strong leadership theres much cunning involved as well. i believe that public opinion in indo was a bif factor in thr fate of the prisoners. the indonesian people for example were heavily supportive of the filipino lady getting a reprieve. had they expressed the same sentiment for chan and sukymarn there would have been a much better chance of them being earnt a reprieve rather than intense lobbying from the australian government. public opinion in Indonesis holds more sway than lobbying from outside foreign govts

i dont want to dramatize the whole thing but widodo is like the gladiator in the colesuemm who is waiting for the thumbs up or thumbs down from the crowd to execute or not.

i think if that if there was a lesson to be learnt here is that if you are on death row your best chance of survival
might be to sway the indonesion. public opinion rather than purely relying on your own homeland govt or human rights group
Edited by Socawho: 30/4/2015 08:46:57 AM


Edited by Socawho: 30/4/2015 08:48:48 AM

Edited by Socawho: 30/4/2015 08:53:06 AM

What would I have done if I was around in the 40's with regards to the Holocaust? I don't know. I would like to think/believe/hope if I was in a position to help/save someone's live/s, I would. Than again, would I have been in a position to help? Can't say. Would I even know what was happening at the time considering how good the NAZI propaganda worked? Again, debatable.

I would love to hear exactly what you would have done if you were around during the time of the Holocaust going-ons?

I'm not saying that capital punishment is right. I have never argued that. Regardless of what the crime is, whether it is for drug smuggling, murder or ped0philia. I have agreed that drugs is a social problem and agree education is the best option rather than criminalization. Yet, it isn't my place to tell a country how to run itself . Indonesia has the law which has capital punishment connected with drug smuggling. It was not a secret. Everyone knew of the risk and the laws yet went ahead anyways. They, and they alone are the ones responsible. No one else.

yes hindsight is a beautiful thing. Roar brisbane thinks that he would have stood up to the Nazis....its easy to say that but to do it really takes a lot of balls.
Maybe if he were to see what they did to jews first hand might make him think again of boldly declaring he would stand up to them. the only time you know your limits is if you were there.

Fark you blokes need to learn how to read.

The argument was made that "it's their laws, they can do what they want".

BrisbaneBhoy Roar Brisbane posited a hypothetical showing the ridiculousness of your argument. (The above is just a bunch of sidestepping guff.)

The challenge for you is to explain how "some countries" are allowed to have unjust laws and "that's OK, it's their country" and other countries can have unjust laws and that's not OK.

And BTW there were plenty of laws passed against Jewish people in Germany before the war kicked off.

So much ignorance, so little time.

Edited by MUNRUBENMUZ: 30/4/2015 11:26:53 AM

Wait a sec, I'm confused. What am I arguing?

That just because it's the law of a sovereign nation it doesn't mean that it's right and we have to ignore it.

That was my read of it anyway.

My Mistake. It was Roar Brisbane that was making the argument not you.



Edited by MUNRUBENMUZ: 30/4/2015 11:27:24 AM

me personally, I am quite pissed off with our government.
I find it repulsive that our citizens get caught up in outright shit and then are left to rot.
yes, these kids were drug smugglers.
yes they stuffed up, but they where rehabilitated and were trying to start life again. people make mistakes, but its about
rehabilitation. and they are our citizens. Indonesia should have handed them over to us in the end or leave them in jail for
a long period and that will be it. instead they laughed at us and even had the nerve to say that they stop the boats. ummmm
you send the boats and do nothing to stop them ffs ](*,)
we give you aid
tourism.
how can they justify killing these guys yet they let a terrorist bomber off.
it truly is a disgrace.
and we as Australians should vote with our feet and show them our pain. don't visit there country,
spend your dollars elsewhere. that's what ill be doing.

I truly hope no more people have to die over this, because once they get you your on your own.
](*,)

Pain? What pain?

Valid stuff

yes it is what it is. indonesia is corrupt. not much you can do except taking your dollars and spending it somewhere else, not travel there or boycott indo products sold in Australia. but if you want to do something to change their laws go ahead and stage a protest...it will fall on deaf ears though

From everything I've heard about Bali it seems like a real shit hole. Why anyone would go there is strange to me.

Because it's cheap.

-PB

Who cares, eventually we'll have another sad event to act like bigots overs.

Edited by Dan_The_Red: 30/4/2015 04:18:03 PM

Exactly, I'm not sure if there is much point continuing this discussion, as its quite clear a number of people are incredibly ignorant and simply can't comprehend the points being made.

I'll try one last time, in current day and in the past, history has shown us that the state has made many cruel and unjust laws. Robbos made the point that it is illegal for women to watch football in some countries, I brought up The Holocaust, there are literally thousands of examples of past/current laws and punishments that the state have made that are simply inhumane and not right.

I'm not trying to find out what you would do in each particular hypothetical or example, I'm merely pointing out that just because a state makes a law or punishment does not mean they are right. Trying to lecture people on minding their own business or respecting a states inhumane law is ludicrous.

no one is disagreeing that the state is 100 percent right on laws. my point is if you are a caught doing something defined as illegal in another countrys jurisdiction then you do it at your own peril. its not rocket science . i mean for example in singapore its illegal to spit and to consume chewing gum... so you might think fuck this i do what i want because i disagree with it then go ahead and rebel....but dont expect sympathy if you get caught because i will simply call you out as being stupid.
like i said if you feel that strongly about it then get into politics or stage a protest. i think you fail to understand that there are some people who dont have time to get involved in acts of rebellion and want to just get through the day and go about their daily lives so they put up with it even if they dont agree with it.
the signs are everywhere in the airport saying drug trafficking attracts a death penalty in indonesia . and you think its only the government that endorses this, its also its majority of citizens that endorse the death penalty, so are you going to call them out and say the entire indonesian population is ignorant as well?

as for the treatment of jews its a totally different topic which involves genocide, yes it is wrong...but we are talking about drug trafficking so its a totally different mattet

if anything i think youre ignorant since you dont respect other countries laws and the wishes of its citizens.

Edited by Socawho: 30/4/2015 05:25:37 PM

Edited by Socawho: 30/4/2015 05:28:28 PM

Once again its gone over your head.

After a few guys on here stated we should respect their laws and mind our own business (despite being incredibly barbaric)

I merely pointed out that just because the state makes the law does not mean its right. In which I provided a number of examples of where a state has made some truly horrendous laws against humanity.

But instead you spent the best part of two pages, bitching and moaning about how I don't respect the sovereignty of the state.

In fact I respect most laws (despite how trivial some may be) but when it comes to something so disgusting and inhumane I'll speak up about it.

I never said two drug smugglers = The Holocaust as they are two completely different topics but in-regards to the point I was making it was particularly relevant.

So what exactly have I said that you class as " extremely ignorant posts"?

Opposing the death penalty is bigotry :lol: :roll: