Youth development in Australia, where did it all go wrong?


Youth development in Australia, where did it all go wrong?

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Seb 1968
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As much as I hated the way football was run in Australia in the past (especially the NSL era), one thing I will say, Australian youth football teams would regularly qualify for numerous FIFA tournaments and the Olympics, where they were very competitive. But over the last 15 or so years, the standard of our youth teams has gone to shit, where did it all go wrong?

I know in the past we had the AIS in Canberra where there was a football division, is this still around?

Since the A-League clubs have been given control of football (as we are led to believe), what plans do the A-League owners have for youth development?, eg. the setting up of youth acedemies.

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Sebr1968 - 25 Aug 2019 3:28 PM
As much as I hated the way football was run in Australia in the past (especially the NSL era), one thing I will say, Australian youth football teams would regularly qualify for numerous FIFA tournaments and the Olympics, where they were very competitive. But over the last 15 or so years, the standard of our youth teams has gone to shit, where did it all go wrong?

I know in the past we had the AIS in Canberra where there was a football division, is this still around?

Since the A-League clubs have been given control of football (as we are led to believe), what plans do the A-League owners have for youth development?, eg. the setting up of youth acedemies.

The A-league clubs haven't been given control of football.  They will own the professional leagues when the documentation is finalised.

The AIS football program no longer exists.

All A-League clubs have to have academies in place by 2019.
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Why should it be up to the HAL clubs to produce the next lot of kids for youth age competitions? The State feds and there clubs need to pull there finger out and make things happen. 

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nomates - 25 Aug 2019 4:09 PM
Why should it be up to the HAL clubs to produce the next lot of kids for youth age competitions? The State feds and there clubs need to pull there finger out and make things happen. 

Here you have the crux of the problem.

Owners are so small minded that they can't put a 5 year plan in place to develop young talented players to sell for big $$$$ each year.

A proper plan would be to hire the best youth coaches in the country, sign the best prospects in the country and develop them at a high level.
Slowly integrate them into the first team and if they prove themselves, sell them on each year bring through another talented group.

Club gets big money coming in each year and the NT gets the rewards of a constant stream of new players each year or so.

It's not that complicated.

This constant buying foreign C grade pensioners is unsustainable for the clubs, the league and the national team.


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sethman75 - 26 Aug 2019 2:31 AM
nomates - 25 Aug 2019 4:09 PM

Here you have the crux of the problem.

Owners are so small minded that they can't put a 5 year plan in place to develop young talented players to sell for big $$$$ each year.

A proper plan would be to hire the best youth coaches in the country, sign the best prospects in the country and develop them at a high level.
Slowly integrate them into the first team and if they prove themselves, sell them on each year bring through another talented group.

Club gets big money coming in each year and the NT gets the rewards of a constant stream of new players each year or so.

It's not that complicated.

This constant buying foreign C grade pensioners is unsustainable for the clubs, the league and the national team.


The crux of the problem has not been the A League club’s. They have been banned from operating academies until this last year. 

A League club’s were forced to work with State NTS and nationally the AIS, why is another debate but Barcelona could run an Australian academy but Brisbane couldn’t. 

Since the regulations were changed several clubs have invested and two - Roar/WSW - operate free Acadamies ending pay-for-play ... both faced local opposition in doing it though. 
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Waz - 26 Aug 2019 7:11 AM
sethman75 - 26 Aug 2019 2:31 AM

The crux of the problem has not been the A League club’s. They have been banned from operating academies until this last year. 

A League club’s were forced to work with State NTS and nationally the AIS, why is another debate but Barcelona could run an Australian academy but Brisbane couldn’t. 

Since the regulations were changed several clubs have invested and two - Roar/WSW - operate free Acadamies ending pay-for-play ... both faced local opposition in doing it though. 

All 4 NSW A-League clubs have had academies since 2015. Sydney, Wanderers and Mariners were the first clubs to get FFA 2 Star accreditations for their academies in 2017 and Jets were in the 2nd group of clubs to get accreditation along with Roar.  I know Victory and City were held up getting accreditation by not having their junior teams in FV competitions and Adelaide I believe still has that problem with FFSA.  I think Glory have had their academy going for a number of years but I don't know where they are with accreditation.

The transition from the system established under the FFA Member Federation Charter (2010) to a club based development system began as a result of the Whole of Football Plan in 2015 and the requirements set down in the FFA Strategic Plan (2016-19).  The accreditation system is open to clubs outside the A-League but NPL clubs have found it too costly for them to meet the criteria for accreditation.  Hopefully it is made mandatory for the 2nd division clubs.

Its good to see progress and with 2 new A-League clubs coming on line there will be about 1,000 players in the new system soon.



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6 Years Ago by Gyfox
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In the past decade, Australia has fallen behind in a lot of sports when compared to the rest of the world. There’s a dangerous complacency that’s arisen from our self declared title of being a ‘sporting mad nation’. We love saying it but we’ve very much failed to act upon it.

Look at swimming - we used to be the undisputed powerhouse along with the US, now we’re flat out even making the podium (or final). Our Olympic team on the whole has underperformed for a while now compared to our past athletes.

Football has always had its own issues but I think a lot of them now are indicative of the general sporting landscape in Australia. Politics and money constantly hamstringing development and progress.

Can’t agree with you Waz about the competitive myth. I think it’s definitely a factor. We’ve PC’d the shit out of our junior sport and none of these kids have any ticker anymore - compared to the kids coming through the ranks from other countries anyway.
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CHEP - 26 Aug 2019 9:17 AM
In the past decade, Australia has fallen behind in a lot of sports when compared to the rest of the world. There’s a dangerous complacency that’s arisen from our self declared title of being a ‘sporting mad nation’. We love saying it but we’ve very much failed to act upon it. Look at swimming - we used to be the undisputed powerhouse along with the US, now we’re flat out even making the podium (or final). Our Olympic team on the whole has underperformed for a while now compared to our past athletes.Football has always had its own issues but I think a lot of them now are indicative of the general sporting landscape in Australia. Politics and money constantly hamstringing development and progress. Can’t agree with you Waz about the competitive myth. I think it’s definitely a factor. We’ve PC’d the shit out of our junior sport and none of these kids have any ticker anymore - compared to the kids coming through the ranks from other countries anyway.
I was referring to the structure of the competitions which do not PC the competitive nature. 

Schools, society and possibly individual clubs may have tried to do that though. But let’s not blame the fact we don’t have U6 Miniroos ladders 


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CHEP - 26 Aug 2019 9:17 AM
In the past decade, Australia has fallen behind in a lot of sports when compared to the rest of the world. There’s a dangerous complacency that’s arisen from our self declared title of being a ‘sporting mad nation’. We love saying it but we’ve very much failed to act upon it. Look at swimming - we used to be the undisputed powerhouse along with the US, now we’re flat out even making the podium (or final). Our Olympic team on the whole has underperformed for a while now compared to our past athletes.Football has always had its own issues but I think a lot of them now are indicative of the general sporting landscape in Australia. Politics and money constantly hamstringing development and progress. Can’t agree with you Waz about the competitive myth. I think it’s definitely a factor. We’ve PC’d the shit out of our junior sport and none of these kids have any ticker anymore - compared to the kids coming through the ranks from other countries anyway.

Watched 2 games of NPL yesterday, 14's and 16's and would disagree with the bolded statement above.

Pretty high standard and very competitive.

It's a way better standard than anything I played as a kid.

Yes suburban football is a mixed bag but a lot of kids just want to play for fun with their mates so I don't think that's a fair comparison. 




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Edited
6 Years Ago by Munrubenmuz
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Waz - 26 Aug 2019 7:11 AM
sethman75 - 26 Aug 2019 2:31 AM


Since the regulations were changed several clubs have invested and two - Roar/WSW - operate free Acadamies ending pay-for-play ... both faced local opposition in doing it though. 

This is BS. Roar fleeces juniors at other clubs with it "preparation centre" programs where U5's are paying $1,225 per year, which then funds the Roar "free" academy (check out link below). The scheme is so good that MV has started doing the same in Vic, with many gullible parents coughing up $2,500K to play in community leagues with promises of MV trials.

https://forum.insidesport.com.au/FindPost2616380.aspx









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AJF - 26 Aug 2019 8:45 PM
Waz - 26 Aug 2019 7:11 AM

This is BS. Roar fleeces juniors at other clubs with it "preparation centre" programs where U5's are paying $1,225 per year, which then funds the Roar "free" academy (check out link below). The scheme is so good that MV has started doing the same in Vic, with many gullible parents coughing up $2,500K to play in community leagues with promises of MV trials.

https://forum.insidesport.com.au/FindPost2616380.aspx

I wouldn't put it past them running scams like this, typical Roar though bunch of scabs. 


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No competition for places. Reward for little effort

Play 1 season, win the league, go overseas, come back as a marquee




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bluebird - 25 Aug 2019 5:15 PM
No competition for places. Reward for little effort

Play 1 season, win the league, go overseas, come back as a marquee

This. The creation of the A league has actually been detrimental to the prospects of our national team. Previously in the nsl, players were semi pro so amyone even half decent like a Danny Allsopp or a Danny invincible left as early as possible and did not have the safety net of coming home. This meant we had a lot more players abroad. I remember reading the crawford report when it came out and it said they estimated that about a third of our overseas players would return home to a fully pro league which ended up being very accurate. given we had a lot more teams before in the NSL, the combination of less teams in the a league, a third of our players returning home to take local spots, less incentive to go overseas (or stay overseas) and more money to afford overseas imports (there are a lot more now than in the nsl) means we have a severely reduced national pool to choose from. I predicted it at the time...

The golden gen was "created" due to our national league being so poor and poorly paid. The success of our national league does not directly translate to the success of national team and is why i support our league being run by the ffa and still do. 

One way to improve our national pool would be to have a minimum of number of under 21 players selected on matchday. Say 4 minimum. This would a. Promote more youth which has been a problem area. B. Introduce more australian players into the professional world of football increasing our natiinal pool. C. Prevent clubs from recruiting drifters, deadwood types such as a Matty Simon, Anthony Golec etc who are never going to be called up to the socceroos again but coaches turn to because they dont trust youth 
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When the NSL collapsed it did have an impact on youth development and both disrupted, dismantled and at best paused what we had before. And while we stagnated other countries didn’t. 

I love the (often repeated) comment “we used to regularly qualify for youth tournaments” which ignores the reality that the world has become more competitive and what we did back then occurred in a narrower competitive pool. You can still see a hangover from this when we play sides like Malaysia and Vietnam and people expwcting us to win, and win well. 

Lowy had no interest in competing with the rest of the world - so the A League was held in a straight jacket and barred from developing youth, the AIS was a bit of a sham and finished a very narrow talent developed by the States, and over the past twenty years kids abandoned street football for FIFA on the Xbox. Times changed and we didn’t. 

Then the FFA centralised coaching qualifications and as participation boomed the number of coaches didn’t and the number of experienced coaches with qualifications was insufficient 

How and why ‘pay for play’ was developed and became ubiquitous is anyone’s guess - but as it did we ended up with the kids of wealthy middle class parents in development squads and they weren’t quite good enough while the rest of the kids were left to Dad-coaches. 

All is not lost but it’s been painful. 



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Waz - 25 Aug 2019 5:33 PM
When the NSL collapsed it did have an impact on youth development and both disrupted, dismantled and at best paused what we had before. And while we stagnated other countries didn’t. 

I love the (often repeated) comment “we used to regularly qualify for youth tournaments” which ignores the reality that the world has become more competitive and what we did back then occurred in a narrower competitive pool. You can still see a hangover from this when we play sides like Malaysia and Vietnam and people expwcting us to win, and win well. 

Lowy had no interest in competing with the rest of the world - so the A League was held in a straight jacket and barred from developing youth, the AIS was a bit of a sham and finished a very narrow talent developed by the States, and over the past twenty years kids abandoned street football for FIFA on the Xbox. Times changed and we didn’t. 

Then the FFA centralised coaching qualifications and as participation boomed the number of coaches didn’t and the number of experienced coaches with qualifications was insufficient 

How and why ‘pay for play’ was developed and became ubiquitous is anyone’s guess - but as it did we ended up with the kids of wealthy middle class parents in development squads and they weren’t quite good enough while the rest of the kids were left to Dad-coaches. 

All is not lost but it’s been painful. 



+1 and add in we used to qualified through Oceania which was a lot easier 
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Divine Right - 25 Aug 2019 6:14 PM
Waz - 25 Aug 2019 5:33 PM

+1 and add in we used to qualified through Oceania which was a lot easier 

the point remains, we were very competitive against all nations, at one point we were the 4th best performed country in the history of the U20 WC, but now we struggle against Asian minnows (who would get flogged by the better Euro/Sth American countries)

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bettega - 25 Aug 2019 6:46 PM
Divine Right - 25 Aug 2019 6:14 PM

the point remains, we were very competitive against all nations, at one point we were the 4th best performed country in the history of the U20 WC, but now we struggle against Asian minnows (who would get flogged by the better Euro/Sth American countries)

Just because we lose in qualification doesn’t mean we would in the final tournament. 


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Waz - 25 Aug 2019 5:33 PM
When the NSL collapsed it did have an impact on youth development and both disrupted, dismantled and at best paused what we had before. And while we stagnated other countries didn’t. 

I love the (often repeated) comment “we used to regularly qualify for youth tournaments” which ignores the reality that the world has become more competitive and what we did back then occurred in a narrower competitive pool. You can still see a hangover from this when we play sides like Malaysia and Vietnam and people expwcting us to win, and win well. 

Lowy had no interest in competing with the rest of the world - so the A League was held in a straight jacket and barred from developing youth, the AIS was a bit of a sham and finished a very narrow talent developed by the States, and over the past twenty years kids abandoned street football for FIFA on the Xbox. Times changed and we didn’t. 

Then the FFA centralised coaching qualifications and as participation boomed the number of coaches didn’t and the number of experienced coaches with qualifications was insufficient 

How and why ‘pay for play’ was developed and became ubiquitous is anyone’s guess - but as it did we ended up with the kids of wealthy middle class parents in development squads and they weren’t quite good enough while the rest of the kids were left to Dad-coaches. 

All is not lost but it’s been painful. 



Agree with the rest but I don't buy the argument highlighted in bold. If this were a factor then why are 1st world countries like Belgium leaping ahead of many developing nations when it comes to player development?

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sydneyfc1987 - 26 Aug 2019 12:19 PM
Waz - 25 Aug 2019 5:33 PM

Agree with the rest but I don't buy the argument highlighted in bold. If this were a factor then why are 1st world countries like Belgium leaping ahead of many developing nations when it comes to player development?

TBH I think you are actually agreeing with him. Belgium did change but we didn't. I believe the Belgium FA introduce a ball mastery programme in selected schools over there to complement what the professional clubs where doing in their academies and this has had a direct link to their current golden generation. They were basically training an extra 3 mornings a week before school and purely working on technique.

For what it is worth I agree with Muzz above. I have had 4 kids play football at NPL and Association level and I have seen huge improvements at both levels of the game over the space of about 13 years. There is plenty of young talented footballers coming through but not enough opportunity at the professional level. Also you can't worry too much about what we are doing at youth level as the talent pool is so large and so hard to line up that selection of the best is a very difficult process. 
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neverwozza - 26 Aug 2019 3:08 PM
sydneyfc1987 - 26 Aug 2019 12:19 PM

TBH I think you are actually agreeing with him. Belgium did change but we didn't. I believe the Belgium FA introduce a ball mastery programme in selected schools over there to complement what the professional clubs where doing in their academies and this has had a direct link to their current golden generation. They were basically training an extra 3 mornings a week before school and purely working on technique.

For what it is worth I agree with Muzz above. I have had 4 kids play football at NPL and Association level and I have seen huge improvements at both levels of the game over the space of about 13 years. There is plenty of young talented footballers coming through but not enough opportunity at the professional level. Also you can't worry too much about what we are doing at youth level as the talent pool is so large and so hard to line up that selection of the best is a very difficult process. 

I'm with you with your 2nd paragraph, not enough opportunity is a huge issue.
Our football level has improved watching from the sideline for I also have had 2 kids play PL, the 2nd @ 19yrs so I have been around it for a while having gone through Youth as well.
No point going on about the past nowadays, whats done is done.
What I have seen over my years is our coaching "system" should be better and more provided to PL2/3 for thats where your next in line can develop from.
Current system imo has stifled out individual brilliance and turned some players into robots, play out from the back and do the same same every single play, what has happened to shuffling the cards and allowing game breakers do it.
Yes there sure is some talented kids but depending on the club TD x player gets berated not playing to the game plan.
Surely when you are seeing a player of considerable talent/skill if they express themselves through a game (depending when) you should encourage it and more so IF he gets a shot in ! compared to having to keep playing war pass's till your in the 6yard box for a tap in.
The other issue mentioned is the "club internal politics and motives" they have held back so much over the years.....so many in Club Admin are just 2faced crook full stop.
Clubs need to identify this and weed them out for their own good, its not just about the money/xyz's son etcetc......
Another point it wasn't that expensive back in the day, been mentioned countless times as well, were pushing out farfarfar too many potentials due to costs, some parents just can't shelve out $2k + for Johnny.




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Started long time ago when in their wisdom the Federation introduced a system where kids played for fun instead of winning. Goals were not to be recorded and the awarding of points for a win or a draw was also done away with. Competition from matches was eliminated as was the fierce desire to win at all cost. Then we saw the introduction small pitches where kids were meant to get more touches and produce better players. (Has it?) Then it was the NPL where only the rich could afford to participate in this competition. The tried and tested Super Leagues that served the game so well in Victoria disappeared. The old Super Leagues saw  the best teams play against each other every week, but this was replaced by a competition that has been so unbalanced (scorewise) it has been detrimental to the game. Then it became a requirement for every coach to have a license to coach and even though some didn't know a thing about the game as long as you had this bit of paper you became a coach. There are other issues that has contributed to poor player developement but I'll leave it at that for now. 
Edited
6 Years Ago by Atlas
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Atlas - 25 Aug 2019 7:30 PM
Started long time ago when in their wisdom the Federation introduced a system where kids played for fun instead of winning. Goals were not to be recorded and the awarding of points for a win or a draw was also done away with. Competition from matches was eliminated as was the fierce desire to win at all cost. Then we saw the introduction small pitches where kids were meant to get more touches and produce better players. (Has it?) Then it was the NPL where only the rich could afford to participate in this competition. The tried and tested Super Leagues that served the game so well in Victoria disappeared. The old Super Leagues saw  the best teams play against each other every week, but this was replaced by a competition that has been so unbalanced (scorewise) it has been detrimental to the game. Then it became a requirement for every coach to have a license to coach and even though some didn't know a thing about the game as long as you had this bit of paper you became a coach. There are other issues that has contributed to poor player developement but I'll leave it at that for now. 

And there you repeat one of the biggest myths in Australian football. It’s not true. 

This is how it works: 

Up to Under 7’s - small sides football with results not recorded. 

U8-U11 - results recorded, win/loss celebrated but no league ladder

U12 upwards - Result recorded, Full league ladder, end of season finals series 



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When you put football & subsequently football development in the hand of those with corporate minds this is what you get.  

If football development was quantified by meaningless reviews & meaningless curriculums without any accountability at all then Australia would have won the World Cup several times over by now.  



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Where did it go wrong? I think it’s a case of the era where the FFA decided the game should start from year zero in the aleague and remove the NSL and all the good the junior development it did have that’s worked really well.

Its telling their baby the FFA NC has been slow to see results and I think overall it’s been the lack of investment into the game whilst the rest of the football world has evolved it’s junior development pouring millions and time into it each year.

A lot has to do on our side but also the global context should be considered in all of this.

We had a useful system with the AIS, NTC System whilst having a better youth structure before the NSL but maybe the changes were too drastic given the structure and pathways underneath the aleague are quite poor.

I think it’s fair to say where the FFA put too much time on the aleague and less and pathways below and now we are kind of paying the price at youth level and even at Socceroos level.

Not hope is lost though as we always developed good talent but struggled to convert that potential talent into quality international players.

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Barca4Life - 26 Aug 2019 10:04 AM
Where did it go wrong? I think it’s a case of the era where the FFA decided the game should start from year zero in the aleague and remove the NSL and all the good the junior development it did have that’s worked really well.

Its telling their baby the FFA NC has been slow to see results and I think overall it’s been the lack of investment into the game whilst the rest of the football world has evolved it’s junior development pouring millions and time into it each year.

A lot has to do on our side but also the global context should be considered in all of this.

We had a useful system with the AIS, NTC System whilst having a better youth structure before the NSL but maybe the changes were too drastic given the structure and pathways underneath the aleague are quite poor.

I think it’s fair to say where the FFA put too much time on the aleague and less and pathways below and now we are kind of paying the price at youth level and even at Socceroos level.

Not hope is lost though as we always developed good talent but struggled to convert that potential talent into quality international players.

I disagree. The FFA didn’t put enough time into the A League which is why it’s imploding. That’s the problem with the centralised model - you can’t put enough time anywhere - A League or otherwise. 

Plus the A League have been specifically excluded from youth development and only expected to blood youngsters 18+ after they graduate AIS

Although I agree with you the FFA hasn’t focussed enough in this area. In theory the new model should allow the FFA to concentrate on youth development from age 4 upwards. It’s alarming though to see they might be running the NSD which suggests someone hasn’t learned past lessons. 

Lastly, we’ve never been good at youth development - if you took the list of golden generation that people always use to say we were good once to any football nation they’d laugh at you and say - “is that it??” 

The more we look to a failed past the more we risk making the same mistakes. Youth development was hamstring by pompous  club committees who allowed nepotism to flourish; political local football administrations more concerned with stopping their neighboring association getting something they didn’t have than advancing football, and a national administration that was basically just rooted 
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Waz - 26 Aug 2019 10:57 AM
Barca4Life - 26 Aug 2019 10:04 AM

I disagree. The FFA didn’t put enough time into the A League which is why it’s imploding. That’s the problem with the centralised model - you can’t put enough time anywhere - A League or otherwise. 

Plus the A League have been specifically excluded from youth development and only expected to blood youngsters 18+ after they graduate AIS

Although I agree with you the FFA hasn’t focussed enough in this area. In theory the new model should allow the FFA to concentrate on youth development from age 4 upwards. It’s alarming though to see they might be running the NSD which suggests someone hasn’t learned past lessons. 

Lastly, we’ve never been good at youth development - if you took the list of golden generation that people always use to say we were good once to any football nation they’d laugh at you and say - “is that it??” 

The more we look to a failed past the more we risk making the same mistakes. Youth development was hamstring by pompous  club committees who allowed nepotism to flourish; political local football administrations more concerned with stopping their neighboring association getting something they didn’t have than advancing football, and a national administration that was basically just rooted 

Fair points Waz.

To be fair for the FFA the introducing of the curriculum has seen a bigger emphasis on skill and technique in our young players more than any time before even way back to the golden generation.

Largely due to SAP and the coaching they receive at elite level and often than not has seen a upskill on technical development and the amount of players I’ve seen at youth level going back maybe the last 8 years has come along way are a lot better technically.

The down side is maybe they are overcoached and often we struggle to see players think for themselves but that’s something that can be improved on.

I do agree they need to focus more on it, as these things also need to evolve as well plus it cops a lot of stick from sideline critics so i think it’s important these things get bigger priorities in the future.
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Yes bring back those great heady days where we qualified for every youth cup but failed to qualify for the world cups.

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robbos - 26 Aug 2019 11:36 AM
Yes bring back those great heady days where we qualified for every youth cup but failed to qualify for the world cups.

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/fifa-world-cup-expansion-why-australia-should-consider-going-back-to-oceania-20170111-gtp692.html

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Without doubt the worst all-time take from The 'Cock. The cancer must def have been rotting his brains for him to arrive at such a conclusion.


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Sebr1968 - 25 Aug 2019 3:28 PM
As much as I hated the way football was run in Australia in the past (especially the NSL era), one thing I will say, Australian youth football teams would regularly qualify for numerous FIFA tournaments and the Olympics, where they were very competitive. But over the last 15 or so years, the standard of our youth teams has gone to shit, where did it all go wrong?

Oceania having a guaranteed place at the various "junior" world cups was a factor.




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Tommy Juric’s 17 yo cousin Noah Botic signing a 2 year deal in the Budasleague with Hoffenhiem. 

Damned system corrupting our kids ... once upon a time they’d turn Germany down to qualify in Oceania rant rave rant rave ...
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Although Adelaide’s hierarchy have long held high hopes for Toure, a former Croydon Kings talent, the club had more vigorously highlighted the first-team prospects of Carlo Armiento, Louis D’Arrigo and Lachlan Brook to Verbeek when he arrived in the City of Churches in July.

But Toure immediately grabbed the attention of the 57-year-old ex-Eredivisie man.

excert taken from https://www.a-league.com.au/news/toure-keeps-leaving-verbeek-surprised-unlikely-rise-adelaide-first-team

This is a big issue and a constant issue not been talked about.

often its not how talented you are or how you perform on field, but rather who you have in your corner off field whether it be hierarchy or agents that are well connected. A lot of talented players have been released simply due to not having the right backing unfortunately their on field performances go unnoticed. In steps a coach who doesn't talk politics and against suggestions gives a genuinely talented player a go. what do you know he performs quite well.




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1. We were in Oceania, which made qualifying easier.

2. Africa and Asia were both rubbish in the 90s. They have now caught up and so are no longer easy beats in the comps, whilst our young blokes have extremely stiff competition for club spots overseas.

3. At youth level, we used to play a lot more physically and this allowed us to win games even when we were inferior skill wise. Now that we are trying to play through skill and not rely on strength at junior levels, we aren't performing as well (even though the skill levels are arguably better).

4. The A-League/lack of second division doesn't provide enough opportunities for youngsters, and so they don't get enough game time to develop.

I don't know what percentage I'd assign to each 4, but all 4 have played a big factor IMO.

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Kamaryn - 26 Aug 2019 3:43 PM
1. We were in Oceania, which made qualifying easier.

2. Africa and Asia were both rubbish in the 90s. They have now caught up and so are no longer easy beats in the comps, whilst our young blokes have extremely stiff competition for club spots overseas.

3. At youth level, we used to play a lot more physically and this allowed us to win games even when we were inferior skill wise. Now that we are trying to play through skill and not rely on strength at junior levels, we aren't performing as well (even though the skill levels are arguably better).

4. The A-League/lack of second division doesn't provide enough opportunities for youngsters, and so they don't get enough game time to develop.

I don't know what percentage I'd assign to each 4, but all 4 have played a big factor IMO.

What are you doing here??? You are making far too much sense for this thread.

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Kamaryn - 26 Aug 2019 3:43 PM
1. We were in Oceania, which made qualifying easier.

2. Africa and Asia were both rubbish in the 90s. They have now caught up and so are no longer easy beats in the comps, whilst our young blokes have extremely stiff competition for club spots overseas.

3. At youth level, we used to play a lot more physically and this allowed us to win games even when we were inferior skill wise. Now that we are trying to play through skill and not rely on strength at junior levels, we aren't performing as well (even though the skill levels are arguably better).

4. The A-League/lack of second division doesn't provide enough opportunities for youngsters, and so they don't get enough game time to develop.

I don't know what percentage I'd assign to each 4, but all 4 have played a big factor IMO.

1.  The point remains that we were competitive against European and Sth American opposition, doesn't matter how easy it was to get there.  Just prior to the establishment of the A-League, Australia was the 4th best performed country in the U20 WC, that is, over the entire history of this age group.

2.  Actually, Nigeria and Ghana were quite strong in the early years of this age group.

3.  There might be something in this, although sounds a little bit speculative.  Probably incorrect to suggest we were any more physical than European teams.

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bettega - 26 Aug 2019 6:40 PM
Kamaryn - 26 Aug 2019 3:43 PM

1.  The point remains that we were competitive against European and Sth American opposition, doesn't matter how easy it was to get there.  Just prior to the establishment of the A-League, Australia was the 4th best performed country in the U20 WC, that is, over the entire history of this age group.

2.  Actually, Nigeria and Ghana were quite strong in the early years of this age group.

3.  There might be something in this, although sounds a little bit speculative.  Probably incorrect to suggest we were any more physical than European teams.

1. This is answered by his point 3
2. They were playing overage players due to birth certificate issue 
3. Its true even the old heads of the AIS have come out and said they we dont look enough these days at physicality in our juniors and pointed to emerton who was an elite athlete as a junior. 
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bettega - 26 Aug 2019 6:40 PM

1.  The point remains that we were competitive against European and Sth American opposition, doesn't matter how easy it was to get there.  Just prior to the establishment of the A-League, Australia was the 4th best performed country in the U20 WC, that is, over the entire history of this age group.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_FIFA_World_Youth_Championship
Qatar were runners up in the 1981 World Youth Championship, defeating Poland, Brazil and England on the way to the finals.
We should be investigating what they were doing with their obviously-successful youth development programs at the time!

My non-sarcastic answer;
* Youth football tends to be a bit more random than "adult" football.
* The purpose of youth football is to develop players for senior football. Although I'm happy to cheer any youth Socceroos teams on, I do so with the hope of seeing the players develop and start to get into the real Socceroos team. If a magic genie gave me the choice of;
a) Australia winning 3 x Under 20 world cups in a row but also not getting out of the group stage of the senior world cup for the next 3 x World cups
or
b) Australia getting out of the group stage at the next world cup.
I'd pick b) every time.



>1.  The point remains that we were competitive against European and Sth American opposition, doesn't matter how easy it was to get there.  Just prior to the establishment of the A-League, Australia was the 4th best performed country in the U20 WC, that is, over the entire history of this age group.

The bolded is a bit of a stretch.
Australia came 4th in the 1991 & 1993 U20 WCs.
The A-League was established in 2004-2005.

There were 5 U20 WCs between Australia's 4th placing and the establishment of the A-League.


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petszk - 27 Aug 2019 5:13 PM
bettega - 26 Aug 2019 6:40 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_FIFA_World_Youth_Championship

There were 5 U20 WCs between Australia's 4th placing and the establishment of the A-League.

For all the talk of 'youth results don't matter' surely you'd be better doing consistently well at these tournaments than not.

(a) it would mean your development 'system' was working
and
(b) the players would be in a fairly prominent shop window. 


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Edited
6 Years Ago by Munrubenmuz
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Kamaryn - 26 Aug 2019 3:43 PM
1. We were in Oceania, which made qualifying easier.
Qualifying may be easier but we came 4th in 91 and 93, our best ever results. In 95 & 97 we made it out of the group stages

2. Africa and Asia were both rubbish in the 90s. They have now caught up and so are no longer easy beats in the comps, whilst our young blokes have extremely stiff competition for club spots overseas.
Actual results in below dont back this up, Asia and Africa have always been thereabouts, but Sth America and Europe have always dominated
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA_U-20_World_Cup

3. At youth level, we used to play a lot more physically and this allowed us to win games even when we were inferior skill wise. Now that we are trying to play through skill and not rely on strength at junior levels, we aren't performing as well (even though the skill levels are arguably better).
Same could be said of the German and Eastern European sides of the time, also read any review of Argentina at Italia 1990 and you may be surprised at the anti-football they displayed.

4. The A-League/lack of second division doesn't provide enough opportunities for youngsters, and so they don't get enough game time to develop.
Agree 100%

I don't know what percentage I'd assign to each 4, but all 4 have played a big factor IMO.











Edited
6 Years Ago by AJF
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Kamaryn - 26 Aug 2019 3:43 PM
1. We were in Oceania, which made qualifying easier.

2. Africa and Asia were both rubbish in the 90s. They have now caught up and so are no longer easy beats in the comps, whilst our young blokes have extremely stiff competition for club spots overseas.

3. At youth level, we used to play a lot more physically and this allowed us to win games even when we were inferior skill wise. Now that we are trying to play through skill and not rely on strength at junior levels, we aren't performing as well (even though the skill levels are arguably better).

4. The A-League/lack of second division doesn't provide enough opportunities for youngsters, and so they don't get enough game time to develop.


I don't know what percentage I'd assign to each 4, but all 4 have played a big factor IMO.

Point 3 has real merit imo.
As much as I believe learning the skill/possession game we lacked in the past our physicality sure helped in the early years.
I recall many opponent NT players after our games saying we sure let them know we were there !
Granted that in part made up for our lack of skill, I feel if we kept a little of this character in our style of play (ala Uruguay/Argies etc) to this day putting the fear in your opponent is a +.

Point 4 sososo much.


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LFC. - 27 Aug 2019 3:36 PM
Kamaryn - 26 Aug 2019 3:43 PM

Point 3 has real merit imo.
As much as I believe learning the skill/possession game we lacked in the past our physicality sure helped in the early years.
I recall many opponent NT players after our games saying we sure let them know we were there !
Granted that in part made up for our lack of skill, I feel if we kept a little of this character in our style of play (ala Uruguay/Argies etc) to this day putting the fear in your opponent is a +.

Point 4 sososo much.

Regarding physicality, interpretations of contact have over time become more strict to the benefit of skillful players. Focusing on (wanting a return to) producing more physical players won't necessarily benefit you in the current paradigm.

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6 Years Ago by Bullion
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Bullion - 28 Aug 2019 11:36 AM

LFC. - 27 Aug 2019 3:36 PM

Regarding physicality, interpretations of contact have over time become more strict to the benefit of skillful players. Focusing on (wanting a return to) producing more physical players won't necessarily benefit you in the current paradigm.

well, yes and no.
Lets talk top levels re physicality and skill obviously right now more so with a few of the past.....
Just consider the CB/CM combos over the years by winning clubs.
Defense is the fist line of winning, physical and skill.
Fergie's era, Stam,Vidic,Ferdinand, Nevilles weren't soft, Evra - then middle Scholes/Keane, Cantona/Rooney - you could name more physical and bonus brawn. Ibra
RM, Pepe - Ramos !/Marcelo/Kroos/Benzema and more
Barca, Puyol/Alves/Pique/Deco/Suarez and more
Pool, Hypia/Carra/VVD/Gomez/Milners/Fabinhos more.....
City, Kompany/Fernandino/Aguero/BSilva
Juve,Cannavaros/Chiellinis/Nedveds etcetc

Nah, physicality is still strong in the game, even when the Barca ticka tacka evolved and to date.......
The HUGE diff on these top liners they are fitter faster than ours and some, they get away with a hell of alot whereas our Roo players are slow and slower than most of the asian countries we play today.
Prior we used to physically get over them, now they have improved their skill but their fitness levels above us.
We need to get fitter faster mixed with some brawn.

At YL we are soft as, I've been watching from the sideline for years and years, playing more synthetics our boys are getting softer and the officials pick them up for a minor transgression, its getting OTT..
Were breeding softies as well as great passers going backwards to reset how many times in a game :).



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6 Years Ago by LFC.
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I agree with a lot of the stuff being posted such as pro/rel, etc. 

I'd like to add a point that I think most people won't think about. I've been coaching for almost 10 years at NPL level in NSW from U13's to 1st Grade and there is one thing I've noticed. Our youth squad sizes are too small (16 players) - why is this important? When I was in Portugal, I watched my cousin play and I was shocked at the amount of players they had on the bench. The squad size is about 20 players.
  • More players means players have to earn their spot in the starting 11
  • If there injuries, players are away, sick, etc and so players are always guaranteed game time
  • Most importantly, less players means the intensity at training drops and game problems are difficult to recreate when it is 8v8, 7v7, 6v6 depending on how many players are unavailable for that particular training
  • Interesting enough, I had my most successful seasons at U18, U20 and 1st Grade level when I had bigger squads - U18 and U20's I had extra players training with us during the season.

Edited
6 Years Ago by theFOOTBALLlover
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theFOOTBALLlover - 26 Aug 2019 10:02 PM
I agree with a lot of the stuff being posted such as pro/rel, etc. 

I'd like to add a point that I think most people won't think about. I've been coaching for almost 10 years at NPL level in NSW from U13's to 1st Grade and there is one thing I've noticed. Our youth squad sizes are too small (16 players) - why is this important? When I was in Portugal, I watched my cousin play and I was shocked at the amount of players they had on the bench. The squad size is about 20 players.
  • More players means players have to earn their spot in the starting 11
  • If there injuries, players are away, sick, etc and so players are always guaranteed game time
  • Most importantly, less players means the intensity at training drops and game problems are difficult to recreate when it is 8v8, 7v7, 6v6 depending on how many players are unavailable for that particular training
  • Interesting enough, I had my most successful seasons at U18, U20 and 1st Grade level when I had bigger squads - U18 and U20's I had extra players training with us during the season.

Yes but was it worth having your ears bleeding the from whinging from the parents of the kids who weren't getting much game time. 
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neverwozza - 27 Aug 2019 12:14 AM
theFOOTBALLlover - 26 Aug 2019 10:02 PM
I agree with a lot of the stuff being posted such as pro/rel, etc. 

I'd like to add a point that I think most people won't think about. I've been coaching for almost 10 years at NPL level in NSW from U13's to 1st Grade and there is one thing I've noticed. Our youth squad sizes are too small (16 players) - why is this important? When I was in Portugal, I watched my cousin play and I was shocked at the amount of players they had on the bench. The squad size is about 20 players.
  • More players means players have to earn their spot in the starting 11
  • If there injuries, players are away, sick, etc and so players are always guaranteed game time
  • Most importantly, less players means the intensity at training drops and game problems are difficult to recreate when it is 8v8, 7v7, 6v6 depending on how many players are unavailable for that particular training
  • Interesting enough, I had my most successful seasons at U18, U20 and 1st Grade level when I had bigger squads - U18 and U20's I had extra players training with us during the season.

Yes but was it worth having your ears bleeding the from whinging from the parents of the kids who weren't getting much game time. 

My kid travels by bus 5 and half hours one way every second week to play in the Newcastle NPL comp.  (Leaves at 6am - returns at 10pm.)  They have a squad of 16. Some weeks he gets a full match (less say 10 minutes) other times he only gets 20 minutes.

He will probably give it up next year because of that exact reason.  I understand why the coach does it but I also understand from his perspective why he's losing interest.




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Munrubenmuz - 27 Aug 2019 12:00 PM
neverwozza - 27 Aug 2019 12:14 AM

My kid travels by bus 5 and half hours one way every second week to play in the Newcastle NPL comp.  (Leaves at 6am - returns at 10pm.)  They have a squad of 16. Some weeks he gets a full match (less say 10 minutes) other times he only gets 20 minutes.

He will probably give it up next year because of that exact reason.  I understand why the coach does it but I also understand from his perspective why he's losing interest.


Will he join a more local league or just give it up entirely? 
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TimmyJ - 27 Aug 2019 12:07 PM
Munrubenmuz - 27 Aug 2019 12:00 PM

Will he join a more local league or just give it up entirely? 

Play with his mates in the suburban comp.





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Munrubenmuz - 27 Aug 2019 12:28 PM
TimmyJ - 27 Aug 2019 12:07 PM

Play with his mates in the suburban comp.



whilst I admire his current dedication..I have to ask where you live that his closest NPL club is 5.5 hours away ?

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miron mercedes - 27 Aug 2019 1:12 PM
Munrubenmuz - 27 Aug 2019 12:28 PM

whilst I admire his current dedication..I have to ask where you live that his closest NPL club is 5.5 hours away ?

Mid north coast NSW.


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Munrubenmuz - 27 Aug 2019 2:02 PM
miron mercedes - 27 Aug 2019 1:12 PM

Mid north coast NSW.

Gold Coast too far away?
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aok - 27 Aug 2019 2:15 PM
Munrubenmuz - 27 Aug 2019 2:02 PM

Gold Coast too far away?

The zone we are in is captured by Newcastle.  Pretty sure Lismore plays in the Gold Coast comp.

It's a 5.5hr bus ride.  4 hours if you drive to Newy but the kids all have to go by bus.  The bus takes all 4 teams which is why it's an all day affair.


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Munrubenmuz - 27 Aug 2019 2:20 PM
aok - 27 Aug 2019 2:15 PM

The zone we are in is captured by Newcastle.  Pretty sure Lismore plays in the Gold Coast comp.

It's a 5.5hr bus ride.  4 hours if you drive to Newy but the kids all have to go by bus.  The bus takes all 4 teams which is why it's an all day affair.

That's very very rough on the kids.
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aok - 27 Aug 2019 3:04 PM
Munrubenmuz - 27 Aug 2019 2:20 PM

That's very very rough on the kids.

It is but at least the option is there for them to do it.  So credit where credit is due. 

Apparently before we got to town there was no NPL for the area because the Newcastle mob didn't want to travel up the coast once or twice a season..


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Munrubenmuz - 27 Aug 2019 12:00 PM
neverwozza - 27 Aug 2019 12:14 AM

My kid travels by bus 5 and half hours one way every second week to play in the Newcastle NPL comp.  (Leaves at 6am - returns at 10pm.)  They have a squad of 16. Some weeks he gets a full match (less say 10 minutes) other times he only gets 20 minutes.

He will probably give it up next year because of that exact reason.  I understand why the coach does it but I also understand from his perspective why he's losing interest.


Credit to your kid but its survival of the 'fittest'. Players have to earn their time and spot in the 11. We want the strongest in all aspects to rise to the top and the mental part of the game is probably one of the most important parts of it. I was in the same boat as your son and quit at 18. I know realise why and I only blame myself.
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theFOOTBALLlover - 28 Aug 2019 8:33 PM
Munrubenmuz - 27 Aug 2019 12:00 PM

Credit to your kid but its survival of the 'fittest'. Players have to earn their time and spot in the 11. We want the strongest in all aspects to rise to the top and the mental part of the game is probably one of the most important parts of it. I was in the same boat as your son and quit at 18. I know realise why and I only blame myself.

You're 100% right. It is about the mental side as much as anything.  I guess if we were dead serious about turning him into the best footballer he could be we'd pick up the whole family and move towns.  When he played in Brisbane he was in a gun team surrounded by gun players. (He was one of the gun players.)  Had we stayed there he'd be a far better player now.

But we moved towns for a better overall life and, well, here we are. 

I have to give credit to North Coast Football and Newcastle.  The standout kids get invited to camps and trials in Newy and someone from one of the 4 NPL sides is always moving onto bigger and better things.  You'd have to say the net is being cast wider than it used to be.  Everything seems to be a step up in professionalism from only a few years ago.


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Edited
6 Years Ago by Munrubenmuz
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theFOOTBALLlover - 26 Aug 2019 10:02 PM
I agree with a lot of the stuff being posted such as pro/rel, etc. 

I'd like to add a point that I think most people won't think about. I've been coaching for almost 10 years at NPL level in NSW from U13's to 1st Grade and there is one thing I've noticed. Our youth squad sizes are too small (16 players) - why is this important? When I was in Portugal, I watched my cousin play and I was shocked at the amount of players they had on the bench. The squad size is about 20 players.
  • More players means players have to earn their spot in the starting 11
  • If there injuries, players are away, sick, etc and so players are always guaranteed game time
  • Most importantly, less players means the intensity at training drops and game problems are difficult to recreate when it is 8v8, 7v7, 6v6 depending on how many players are unavailable for that particular training
  • Interesting enough, I had my most successful seasons at U18, U20 and 1st Grade level when I had bigger squads - U18 and U20's I had extra players training with us during the season.

Good to read an informed post on this subject, FL.

That is from somebody involved coaching in the system and qualified at semi-pro /pro level. 
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When was the last time you saw a kid kicking a soccer ball in the street?  When I was a kid that’s what we did, after school and on weekends, go outside and play.  The streets and ovals would be full with kids.  These days kids are stuck inside on their playstations, Xbox’s and ipads.  They still play structured sport to please their parents but once it’s over they zip inside and go online.  The passion for sport just isn’t there anymore.  

Edited
6 Years Ago by rusty
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rusty - 26 Aug 2019 11:38 PM
When was the last time you saw a kid kicking a soccer ball in the street?  When I was a kid that’s what we did, after school and on weekends, go outside and play.  The streets and ovals would be full with kids.  These days kids are stuck inside on their playstations, Xbox’s and ipads.  They still play structured sport to please their parents but once it’s over they zip inside and go online.  The passion for sport just isn’t there anymore.  

It's not really about the ps4s and xbox's etc, it's more about the 15-18 year olds who are extremely talented quitting football to chase skirt more often.
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rusty - 26 Aug 2019 11:38 PM
When was the last time you saw a kid kicking a soccer ball in the street?  When I was a kid that’s what we did, after school and on weekends, go outside and play.  The streets and ovals would be full with kids.  These days kids are stuck inside on their playstations, Xbox’s and ipads.  They still play structured sport to please their parents but once it’s over they zip inside and go online.  The passion for sport just isn’t there anymore.  

A point I reluctantly concur with being a teacher of kids 4-10 years old.

Most kids' major passion is their IT devices - not sport. If they were allowed to sit inside and play with IT devices, most would do so instead of  playing outside at lunch and recess.

There isn't  much street football, cricket, etc, played anymore. Most of the time one sees  Dads playing with their own kids, but not groups of kids organising their own games.
Edited
6 Years Ago by Decentric
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Just on this the Newcastle Jets have sides in all the comps but they all play a year up.  So Under 13's in the 14's, under 14's in the 15s etc.. (They're called the 'Emerging Jets'.)

I just had a look at the ladders and they're doing fairly well.

You'd probably call this a bit of a production line,  http://websites.sportstg.com/comp_info.cgi?c=1-10182-0-518206-0&a=LADDER

Under 18's in the 20 comp are currently 2nd
Under 16's in the 18 comp are currently 1st
Under 15's in the 16 comp are currently 1st
Under 14's in the 15 comp are currently 3rd
Under 13's in the 14 comp are currently 3rd
Under 12's in the 13 comp are currently 1st


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Worth remembering that a lot of our past youngsters were first gen Aussies, so many grew up in a culture where football was second to God.

Finanicial security also plays a bigger part now. Nowadays even if you aren't that good at school there are plenty of options available for you that pay well. Versus hoping that your football career kicks on (lots of time and effort required... with a low chance of success).

Even at my grass roots club we have had players stop playing because they can't risk an injury that will stop them working (many earning apprenticeships do this when they finish school).

As I said in another post along the exact same lines last week, I think a nationally accredited state based academy system, criteria for NPL/HAL clubs in regards to academies, a full pyramid and adopting coach education (and targeting kids in sports) similar to what has recently been done in Iceland would be a start
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Releasing players once they turn 19 is a joke. It happens all the time. I think there is a quota players can't be older than 20. At that point the club needs to make a call. Players develop at a later stage, all that talent goes to waste, all that nurturing down the drain. 
the whole system is a shambles. You have players deemed not good enough for the A league make it  in other high quality leagues.

Timotheou initially (Schalke) now somewhere in Belgium, Duncan (AGF Arhuas), John Iredale (Wolfsburg). 
How many more are simply wasted playing yet the league recycles players.
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mountain - 28 Aug 2019 4:23 PM
Releasing players once they turn 19 is a joke. It happens all the time. I think there is a quota players can't be older than 20. At that point the club needs to make a call. Players develop at a later stage, all that talent goes to waste, all that nurturing down the drain. 
the whole system is a shambles. You have players deemed not good enough for the A league make it  in other high quality leagues.

Timotheou initially (Schalke) now somewhere in Belgium, Duncan (AGF Arhuas), John Iredale (Wolfsburg). 
How many more are simply wasted playing yet the league recycles players.

Exactly. Players making it is a random chaotic mix of possibilites and is not linear. Jason Culina for example was at Ajax for years without ever playing a game then got a move to twente at like 24 where he scored over 10 goals from midfirld and suddenly was rusted on starter for socceroos. Never know how players will turn out. No one woukd have ever predicted chippeefield to move to basle like he did at 28 become a club legend and play in the champions league every year 
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Bunch of Hacks - 30 Aug 2019 7:59 PM
mountain - 28 Aug 2019 4:23 PM

Exactly. Players making it is a random chaotic mix of possibilites and is not linear. Jason Culina for example was at Ajax for years without ever playing a game then got a move to twente at like 24 where he scored over 10 goals from midfirld and suddenly was rusted on starter for socceroos. Never know how players will turn out. No one woukd have ever predicted chippeefield to move to basle like he did at 28 become a club legend and play in the champions league every year 

With the current structure in place late developers will never make it here, the cut off with aleague squads is too early and need to be at a level developing those players that come good later on.
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“Like Mazis, Garner and Woods reminded Bernal of a teenage Tom Rogic and hopes they'll be inspired by his journey."Both boys impressed me immediately like the first time I saw Tom Rogic," Bernal said. "We have no A-league club in Canberra so the quicker they get out into a professional environment the better chance they have of becoming top professionals."This is a training and development trip to see where they lie in the football landscape, and be put into the club database for further monitoring."


https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/6357464/two-teens-ready-to-fire-ahead-of-celtic-training-stint/?cs=14237



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Massive gaps in youth development. Needs to be some research done in these areas.

I think we need to SEE the connection from

Youth leagues -> A-League & OR NT EXPOSURE -> Overseas. 

Make a name HERE -> THEN go overseas.

NOT! Nobodies , no names, then see them in the NT not knowing who the fug 


Edited
6 Years Ago by highkick05
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highkick05 - 31 Aug 2019 12:16 AM
Massive gaps in youth development. Needs to be some research done in these areas.

I think we need to SEE the connection from

Youth leagues -> A-League & OR NT EXPOSURE -> Overseas. 

Make a name HERE -> THEN go overseas.

NOT! Nobodies , no names, then see them in the NT not knowing who the fug 

Borello and Leckie say hi
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Pasquali - 4 Sep 2019 4:42 PM
highkick05 - 31 Aug 2019 12:16 AM

Borello and Leckie say hi

were "excited"......


Love Football

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“My loan at Millwall was a big part of my development,” Kane said as he prepared for Tottenham’s FA Cup quarter-final against Millwall at White Hart Lane on Sunday. “I was 18, we were in a relegation battle and it turned me into a man. I played in difficult, high-pressure games and I managed to come out of it positively. I had a great time at the club and it will be interesting to play them again. A lot has changed since I left but I’m looking forward to it.”

https://www.google.se/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjOlN67nqvkAhWIAxAIHWqJC1kQzPwBegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Ffootball%2F2017%2Fmar%2F09%2Fharry-kane-loan-millwall-tottenham-fa-cup&psig=AOvVaw3ovXQKo0UeNs5XWEZ7J2Ki&ust=1567276605052398

18 yr old Australian players get to watch Simon and ODonovon head butt opponents from the bench if they are lucky.
Edited
6 Years Ago by scott20won
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I am becoming more and more convinced that youth development and football in general is suffering from the stodgy one size fits all National Curriculum.
I believe it is based on the Dutch system and the 443 playing formation.
No one plays 443 at present. 
We need to modernise and show kids different and varying systems from about age ten on .
These kids are smarter than we think and can handle it.
 We also need to let kids play and "show off a bit" if they have some flair...don't coach it out of them...encourage it .

Also ....whilst we needed to get away from the "ethnic" image the old NSL had we have taken it too far .
In the NSL days you had clubs playing varying styles of football. The Croations had free flowing individuals , the Italians a bit of everything , the Dutch were different again .
Each team had varying nationalties playing and coaching . It made for some exciting football.
When you went to NSL games you got different styles depending on who your team was playing .
It was good to watch and play .

Now we have teams all playing similar styles and no one wants to break out of the mould. 
Remember when Ange dared to do it ? "Roarcelona" were born and excited the league for a few years.
We need both junior and senior clubs to be more individual and play different styles.
Our playing style is stale and predictable.
The crowds need to see players who do unexpected things ...to get that junior players have to be allowed to try things as they progress.


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miron mercedes - 4 Sep 2019 1:28 PM
I am becoming more and more convinced that youth development and football in general is suffering from the stodgy one size fits all National Curriculum.
I believe it is based on the Dutch system and the 443 playing formation.
No one plays 443 at present. 


I wish we could play a 443 formation.
Would really help having one more player on the pitch than our opponents!


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petszk - 4 Sep 2019 1:38 PM
miron mercedes - 4 Sep 2019 1:28 PM

I wish we could play a 443 formation.
Would really help having one more player on the pitch than our opponents!

ha ...good pick up ...you know what I meant ...

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miron mercedes - 4 Sep 2019 1:28 PM
I am becoming more and more convinced that youth development and football in general is suffering from the stodgy one size fits all National Curriculum.
I believe it is based on the Dutch system and the 443 playing formation.
No one plays 443 at present. 
We need to modernise and show kids different and varying systems from about age ten on .
These kids are smarter than we think and can handle it.
 We also need to let kids play and "show off a bit" if they have some flair...don't coach it out of them...encourage it .

Also ....whilst we needed to get away from the "ethnic" image the old NSL had we have taken it too far .
In the NSL days you had clubs playing varying styles of football. The Croations had free flowing individuals , the Italians a bit of everything , the Dutch were different again .
Each team had varying nationalties playing and coaching . It made for some exciting football.
When you went to NSL games you got different styles depending on who your team was playing .
It was good to watch and play .

Now we have teams all playing similar styles and no one wants to break out of the mould. 
Remember when Ange dared to do it ? "Roarcelona" were born and excited the league for a few years.
We need both junior and senior clubs to be more individual and play different styles.
Our playing style is stale and predictable.
The crowds need to see players who do unexpected things ...to get that junior players have to be allowed to try things as they progress.


What the eclectic approach showed though, was little success in international football.

All powerhouses tend to have systems of play they adhere to. There is a lot of common ground in powerhouses, with Italy proving to be  the exception.

Italy tend to be the only  powerhouse deploying a different approach.



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Decentric - 4 Sep 2019 11:26 PM
miron mercedes - 4 Sep 2019 1:28 PM

What the eclectic approach showed though, was little success in international football.

All powerhouses tend to have systems of play they adhere to. There is a lot of common ground in powerhouses, with Italy proving to be  the exception.

Italy tend to be the only  powerhouse deploying a different approach.



You do realize that the vast majority of players who played in the teams that have qualified were NSL products?

Do you also realise that neither Ange nor Arnie play the 433 depicted in the NC. Plus I would challenge anyone to describe Bert van Marwijk's tactics in the last WC as meeting the NC philosophy (below for those interested):

A proactive brand of football, based on effective possession with the cutting edge provided by creative individuals.
Defensively the key components are quick transition and intelligent collective pressing.
The Playing Style is underpinned by a strong ‘team mentality’, capitalising on Australia’s traditional strengths.












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AJF - 5 Sep 2019 11:41 AM
Decentric - 4 Sep 2019 11:26 PM

You do realize that the vast majority of players who played in the teams that have qualified were NSL products?

You do realise that statement is incorrect.

Most players were NOT NSL products.
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MarkfromCroydon - 5 Sep 2019 4:39 PM
AJF - 5 Sep 2019 11:41 AM

You do realise that statement is incorrect.

Most players were NOT NSL products.

thats BS. but I will make it easy for you, from the 2006 squad, name which ones werent









Edited
6 Years Ago by AJF
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AJF - 5 Sep 2019 6:16 PM
MarkfromCroydon - 5 Sep 2019 4:39 PM

thats BS. but I will make it easy for you, from the 2006 squad, name which ones werent

Read what you wrote. I am right and you are wrong.
From the 2006, 2010, 2014, 2018 squads tell me how many players were NOT NSL products. Yes, that's right, the majority did NOT play in the NSL.

In the 2006 tournament, quite a few of the players, including some of the 'main' players did NOT play a single NSL game before the tournament. eg Kewell, Cahill, Moore, Neill, Wilkshere, Skoko. That's right zero NSL games between them.
There were quite a few players in that squad that played less than 1 or 2 seasons in the NSL. eg. Aloisi (21 games), Bresciano, (less than 30 games) Grella (less than 40 games), Milligan (16 games), Kennedy (4 games).

Once you get to the 2010, 2014 World Cups, the list dwindles even more.

Basically, the NSL did fail.
Edited
6 Years Ago by MarkfromCroydon
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MarkfromCroydon - 5 Sep 2019 7:37 PM
AJF - 5 Sep 2019 6:16 PM

Read what you wrote. I am right and you are wrong.
From the 2006, 2010, 2014, 2018 squads tell me how many players were NOT NSL products. Yes, that's right, the majority did NOT play in the NSL.

In the 2006 tournament, quite a few of the players, including some of the 'main' players did NOT play a single NSL game before the tournament. eg Kewell, Cahill, Moore, Neill, Wilkshere, Skoko. That's right zero NSL games between them.
There were quite a few players in that squad that played less than 1 or 2 seasons in the NSL. eg. Aloisi (21 games), Bresciano, (less than 30 games) Grella (less than 40 games), Milligan (16 games), Kennedy (4 games).

Once you get to the 2010, 2014 World Cups, the list dwindles even more.

Basically, the NSL did fail.

The full list is below, but out of the squad of 23, 3 went straight from the AIS overseas. The rest were all involved with NSL clubs in some way (I know the NND have difficulty comprehending that teams may have junior set-ups that develop youngsters but it does happen). Plus many of the new gen socceroos played juniors at old NSL clubs so it must pain you to know that the NSL keeps producing.  Also note the success of the AIS program, something that the so called failure Soccer Australia set up

Also if you apply your less than 2 seasons logic, the HAL has been a disaster.

1          Mark Schwarzer Juniors and Seniors at Marconi
2          Lucas Neill        AIS before going OS
3          Craig Moore     AIS before going OS
4          Tim Cahill          Juniors at Sydney Olympic and Sydney United
5          Jason Culina     Juniors Knights and Seniors SU
6          Tony Popovic    Juniors and Seniors at SU
7          Brett Emerton   Juniors Marconi, AIS and Seniors SO
8          Josip Skoko      AIS before going OS
9          Mark Viduka (c) Juniors and Seniors at MK
10        Harry Kewell     Juniors at Marconi
11        Stan Lazaridis   Seniors at West Adelaide
12        Ante Covic        Seniors APIA and Marconi
13        Vince Grella       Juniors AIS, Seniors Canberra Cosmos & Carlton
14        Scott Chipperfield         Seniors Wollongong Wolves
15        John Aloisi        Seniors Adelaide City
16        Michael Beauchamp      Juniors and Seniors at Marconi
17        Archie Thompson          Seniors Gippsland, Carlton and Marconi
18        Zeljko Kalac      Juniors and Seniors at SU
19        Joshua Kennedy Seniors Carlton
20        Luke Wilkshire  Youth Wollongong
21        Mile Sterjovski  Youth WW, Seniors WW, SU & Parramatta
22        Mark Milligan    Seniors Northern Spirit
23        Mark Bresciano Seniors Carlton










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AJF - 5 Sep 2019 11:41 AM
Decentric - 4 Sep 2019 11:26 PM

You do realize that the vast majority of players who played in the teams that have qualified were NSL products?

Do you also realise that neither Ange nor Arnie play the 433 depicted in the NC. Plus I would challenge anyone to describe Bert van Marwijk's tactics in the last WC as meeting the NC philosophy (below for those interested):

A proactive brand of football, based on effective possession with the cutting edge provided by creative individuals.
Defensively the key components are quick transition and intelligent collective pressing.
The Playing Style is underpinned by a strong ‘team mentality’, capitalising on Australia’s traditional strengths.




BVM played within the parameters of a 1-4-3-3.

Ange did mainly until he deployed that 3 at the back experimental formation and a flirtation with 4-4-2.

Arnie chops and changes his formations.

Unlike Holland's' KNVB, there is no edict for senior national Aussie teams to play a 1-4-3-3.  
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Decentric - 6 Sep 2019 10:38 AM
AJF - 5 Sep 2019 11:41 AM

BVM played within the parameters of a 1-4-3-3.

Ange did mainly until he deployed that 3 at the back experimental formation and a flirtation with 4-4-2.

Arnie chops and changes his formations.

Unlike Holland's' KNVB, there is no edict for senior national Aussie teams to play a 1-4-3-3.  
BVM played a 1-4-4-1-1 in every match, but since this also adds up to 11, I agree it is within the parameters of 1-4-3-3










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AJF - 6 Sep 2019 11:53 AM
Decentric - 6 Sep 2019 10:38 AM
BVM played a 1-4-4-1-1 in every match, but since this also adds up to 11, I agree it is within the parameters of 1-4-3-3


If that is what you thought, you'd have failed your C Licence under the assessors I had!

BVM played a 4-2-3-1 in Ball Possession  Opposition.

He deployed  a 4-3-3 with a defensive midfield  triangle as the ball entered  the attacking half and third in Ball Possession.
Edited
6 Years Ago by Decentric
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Decentric - 6 Sep 2019 2:59 PM
AJF - 6 Sep 2019 11:53 AM

If that is what you thought, you'd have failed your C Licence under the assessors I had!

BVM played a 4-2-3-1 in Ball Possession  Opposition.

He deployed  a 4-3-3 with a defensive midfield  triangle as the ball entered  the attacking half and third in Ball Possession.

Best you tell the socceroos they got it wrong too as thats direct from their website......



https://www.socceroos.com.au/match/france-v-australia-world-cup-16-06-2018/958034#!/commentary

Also if you actually did do a C-Licnce assessment you would know they dont ask anything about formations so please dont make up BS








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AJF - 6 Sep 2019 3:20 PM
Decentric - 6 Sep 2019 2:59 PM

Best you tell the socceroos they got it wrong too as thats direct from their website......



https://www.socceroos.com.au/match/france-v-australia-world-cup-16-06-2018/958034#!/commentary

Also if you actually did do a C-Licnce assessment you would know they dont ask anything about formations so please dont make up BS

I doubt it was a coach on the FFA website who reached that conclusion it was a 4-4-1-1.

I don't know which year you did your C licence, but only the variations of 1-4-3-3 were discussed in 2013.

For someone who has ostensibly completed  a C Licence, you always seem to cut and paste secondary sources to validate your opinions, as opposed to being able to analyse directly from the source or matches.
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Decentric - 6 Sep 2019 3:35 PM
AJF - 6 Sep 2019 3:20 PM

I doubt it was a coach on the FFA website who reached that conclusion it was a 4-4-1-1.

I don't know which year you did your C licence, but only the variations of 1-4-3-3 were discussed in 2013.

For someone who has ostensibly completed  a C Licence, you always seem to cut and paste secondary sources to validate your opinions, as opposed to being able to analyse directly from the source or matches.

I know it is difficult when my sources always catch you out when you sprout your BS, but thats the thing about using sources, it adds weight to an opinion whereas you just have your KNVB wet dreams to rely upon when you dress your opinions as facts..

Unfortunately you are typical of the problem I alluded to in a different post with non-football people getting coaching badges and then sprouting crap about the NC. Your credentials and experience are highly dubious and been exposed on here and other forums in the past so I would not be trying to denigrate the qualifications or experience of others with your condescending remarks (cue offensive PM with threats of blocking.......again)










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AJF - 6 Sep 2019 3:59 PM
Decentric - 6 Sep 2019 3:35 PM

I know it is difficult when my sources always catch you out when you sprout your BS, but thats the thing about using sources, it adds weight to an opinion whereas you just have your KNVB wet dreams to rely upon when you dress your opinions as facts..

Unfortunately you are typical of the problem I alluded to in a different post with non-football people getting coaching badges and then sprouting crap about the NC. Your credentials and experience are highly dubious and been exposed on here and other forums in the past so I would not be trying to denigrate the qualifications or experience of others with your condescending remarks (cue offensive PM with threats of blocking.......again)


I don't know why you keep alluding  to extremely spurious sources describing  me as a non- football person. The football milieu in Oz is not that big, and it is  relatively easy to verify information. 

I was in a state squad as underage payer.

I played youth football for two current Tas  NPL clubs who played at the top level then and now.

I played senior  football games with one of these clubs, before  I quit at an early age, due to the usual distractions for young men.

I've also been the TD of NPL club for a short period  usually ranked somewhere between 40 and 60 out of all clubs in Aus for a short time.

Unlike many, I don't see other coaches like yourself as rivals. I take my hat off to you, and anybody else, willing to undertake  the semi-professional and pro coaching pathway.  Good on you for doing it. At an older age I felt it was a duty, even though it was hard on my body taking coaching and demonstrating.

What surprises me is that most other trained pro-coaches on here, with a plethora over the years, respond quickly in proffering arguments to football based problems and argue the point without haven to resort to secondary sources to substantiate their position.

In 2013 it was one of the last years before the FFA C Licence was ostensibly going to be spilt between a Senior C Licence or a Youth C licence. Many of the generic licence  holders of C and B have spent  a lot of time on tactical and structural work, which is similar to the  KNVB. However, there is a far less technical component in what they've studied.

I iid a lot of work with a precursor to the current junior or youth licences, that broke down technique into four groups - first touch, striking the ball, 1v1 attacking and defensive skills and running with the ball.

Only four other coaches from my C Licence who were designated rep coaches pursued this extra course. We all found in invaluable - in a different  way even though it was a tenth of the amount of time, it was as  invaluable as the FFA Licence, and in my case the KNVB youth course.

Unlike most other coaches in other states, I also did a lot of  work with the head of state SAP, the state TD, and two assistant under 20 assistant  Aus coaches, plus the state under 14s coach, on the training track as well as a plethora of courses. Sometimes it is hard to remember where one learns which part of one's acquired knowledge.

Quite a few coaches on here who have pursued advanced coach education  seem negative about  their experiences. I wonder if it is due to having little ongoing and regular contact with coach educators  in between  courses?

All the  stuff you did on :

*the four main moments

* three thirds of the pitch analysis  in BP and BPO

* structure of teams - who says what to who when playing out;  why triangles and diamonds incorporating  ideal body shape; each line coaching the lines in front to keep shape; ideal distancing between and within the lines; ideal  sizes of the whole eleven players on the pitch; how to impart shape with cones in small spaces; partial, half and full pressing; etcetera.

* match analysis  - who, when, here, why, how? Devising training programs based on  identified football problem in match performances. 

* four phase training programs based around football problems idientified in the match appraisal template ( I think they are a bit too prescriptive), noting you often stick to the three phases as I did,     
 

were virtually unheard of in Australia at most levels prior to 2008.



The big issue in Australia is we have tended to progress down thethe Loius Van Gaal version of KNVB coaching methodology, as opposed to the Johann Cruyff paradigm of the KNVB model.

For Van Gaal the team model is paramount and he had more success as a coach than Cruyff.

For Cruyff, developing players' technical level to be superior to the opposition  was paramount.

There is a lot of interesting football literature on  Van Gaal, Cruyff, the KNVB, Ajax Amsterdam and Barcelona. It has significant  implications for football methodology.

Where this has impact on our  development, is that we could probably  do more of the Cruyff model than Van Gaal's.

Germany adopted a 50 /50 approach of these  two paradigms.

In previous posts I thought you were a troll, AJF, with close links to some very shady characters who in another forum have stated  how they are trying to destroy this forum. I can't prove any of it, but by co-incidence you seem to have infinite  knowledge of what their spurious sources are .

Given you've done a C Licence, you must be part of the current football milieu though.

There are plenty of other coaches around who see other coaches as great rivals to their own careers.   For mine, I want to see more coaches, pursuing what is currently expensive  and consumes a lot of time to complete, FFA coach education. 

I don't participate  on this forum to give other coaches a hard time.

It is a shame you weren't around a few years ago.

Another member posted the youth and senior models of Chelsea, Ajax Amsterdam and KNVB, Arsenal  and PSV academies in the performance section for technique acquisition . It was invaluable to me on the training ground and I have shared it with  a plethora of  coaches and players, including senior NPL coaches and TDs. It has been taken down though.


Edited
6 Years Ago by Decentric
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Decentric - 7 Sep 2019 10:07 AM
Another member posted the youth and senior models of Chelsea, Ajax Amsterdam and KNVB, Arsenal  and PSV academies in the performance section for technique acquisition . It was invaluable to me on the training ground and I have shared it with  a plethora of  coaches and players, including senior NPL coaches and TDs. It has been taken down though.

I'd say some of those(and others) are now at https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/PedMenCoach/presentations

Scribd.com(which you have to sign up for, alas) also has some good stuff, if you type topic-related keywords in the search engine. One sample: https://www.scribd.com/document/118045582/Full-Switching-Play-Session


Edited
6 Years Ago by BA81
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Decentric - 4 Sep 2019 11:26 PM
miron mercedes - 4 Sep 2019 1:28 PM

What the eclectic approach showed though, was little success in international football.

All powerhouses tend to have systems of play they adhere to. There is a lot of common ground in powerhouses, with Italy proving to be  the exception.

Italy tend to be the only  powerhouse deploying a different approach.



But what they don't take into account is the resources and number of potential players in these countries. They can train and play against the best quality of opposition at their age groups all the way into top quality clubs. That's where the advantage is and by proxy of having the best players they will dominate games more and be more attacking by nature of being the better team.

We aren't any of this, what we are closer too is the old English model of excluding players because they don't fit the mould of what they want. We want robots, not any flair and selfishness in players.
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City Sam - 5 Sep 2019 12:28 PM
Decentric - 4 Sep 2019 11:26 PM

But what they don't take into account is the resources and number of potential players in these countries. They can train and play against the best quality of opposition at their age groups all the way into top quality clubs. That's where the advantage is and by proxy of having the best players they will dominate games more and be more attacking by nature of being the better team.

We aren't any of this, what we are closer too is the old English model of excluding players because they don't fit the mould of what they want. We want robots, not any flair and selfishness in players.

Wrong.

There is nothing about producing robots.

You need to gain greater insight in order to pontificate.

The point you make about greater resources in these countries is true though. 
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Decentric - 6 Sep 2019 10:31 AM
City Sam - 5 Sep 2019 12:28 PM

Wrong.

There is nothing about producing robots.

You need to gain greater insight in order to pontificate.

The point you make about greater resources in these countries is true though. 

The only reason you say it is wrong is because you way too involved from the inside. There's a reason literally everyone from the outside including very well respected people in the game say the same thing. The systems in place don't conduce creative thinking and individuality, what makes it worse in Australia than other countries is that elsewhere these kids will play a lot more football outside the systems they have in place. They get the higher quality training aswell as getting a bit of individuality.

South Americans are so technically brilliant because they play on the street all day, they develop these technical skills and the sooner the NC realises we aren't the same as these countries and adapts we might actually start producing strikers again for example.
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City Sam - 6 Sep 2019 10:37 AM
Decentric - 6 Sep 2019 10:31 AM

The only reason you say it is wrong is because you way too involved from the inside. There's a reason literally everyone from the outside including very well respected people in the game say the same thing. The systems in place don't conduce creative thinking and individuality, what makes it worse in Australia than other countries is that elsewhere these kids will play a lot more football outside the systems they have in place. They get the higher quality training aswell as getting a bit of individuality.

South Americans are so technically brilliant because they play on the street all day, they develop these technical skills and the sooner the NC realises we aren't the same as these countries and adapts we might actually start producing strikers again for example.

Agree with the second paragraph, but quote who with a depth of knowledge shuns the direction we've taken  using the specific football criteria they argue against in your answer. 
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Decentric - 6 Sep 2019 10:40 AM
City Sam - 6 Sep 2019 10:37 AM

Agree with the second paragraph, but quote who with a depth of knowledge shuns the direction we've taken  using the specific football criteria they argue against in your answer. 

Quite simple reason for all of this is we as a sport do not get the better kids from the beginning ,mostly due to the fact that Soccer is the fourth most popular sport in the country and also the cost to play the game are often 5 times more expensive than other sports.
I have spoken to parents of a player who has been selected for a PYL u13s side next year ,the costs $2300 rego plus compulsory attendance to clubs academy training $1750 ,total cost for one kid to play Soccer at PYL level $4050 ,oh and also there may be a end of season tour to the UK.
Maybe just maybe the best just can't afford to play?

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notarobot - 6 Sep 2019 10:55 AM
Decentric - 6 Sep 2019 10:40 AM

Quite simple reason for all of this is we as a sport do not get the better kids from the beginning ,mostly due to the fact that Soccer is the fourth most popular sport in the country and also the cost to play the game are often 5 times more expensive than other sports.
I have spoken to parents of a player who has been selected for a PYL u13s side next year ,the costs $2300 rego plus compulsory attendance to clubs academy training $1750 ,total cost for one kid to play Soccer at PYL level $4050 ,oh and also there may be a end of season tour to the UK.
Maybe just maybe the best just can't afford to play?

The bolded bit is a very general statement and I question its accuracy.  In NSW there are more registered footballers than the other 3 codes combined and although League is more popular both Union and AFL appeal to niche markets in the state and the potential of football is way bigger than both.  I think rather than generalising we really need to consider Australia as separate markets with some commonality but each at a different stage of development.

The cost of playing in the development pathway is one of the negatives in our game and unfortunately it is found in all major markets.
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Decentric - 6 Sep 2019 10:40 AM
City Sam - 6 Sep 2019 10:37 AM

Agree with the second paragraph, but quote who with a depth of knowledge shuns the direction we've taken  using the specific football criteria they argue against in your answer. 

Oops....

Australia is producing 'robots', says youth guru Smith
BY DAVE LEWIS

AIS Youth coaching kingpin Ron Smith, the man who nurtured golden generation stars like Mark Viduka, Vince Grella, Craig Moore and Lucas Neill, has added fuel to the furnace of the Socceroos’ FIFA World Cup exit by claiming the country’s development systems produce “robots” high on energy but short of goalscoring technique.

With the recriminations over Australia’s impotence in the final third in Russia raging, the former chief of the now defunct Canberra-based AIS finishing school for budding Socceroos insists an "obsession" with producing players "who run about like lunatics" in adherence to a methodology put in place by Dutchman Han Berger during his five-year reign as the FFA’s technical director from 2009-2014 is partly to blame for what ails Australia.

Link to thread:
 https://forum.insidesport.com.au/2674250/Australia-is-producing-robots-says-AIS-youth-guru-Smith?PageIndex=1











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AJF - 6 Sep 2019 11:35 AM
Decentric - 6 Sep 2019 10:40 AM

Oops....

Australia is producing 'robots', says youth guru Smith
BY DAVE LEWIS

AIS Youth coaching kingpin Ron Smith, the man who nurtured golden generation stars like Mark Viduka, Vince Grella, Craig Moore and Lucas Neill, has added fuel to the furnace of the Socceroos’ FIFA World Cup exit by claiming the country’s development systems produce “robots” high on energy but short of goalscoring technique.

With the recriminations over Australia’s impotence in the final third in Russia raging, the former chief of the now defunct Canberra-based AIS finishing school for budding Socceroos insists an "obsession" with producing players "who run about like lunatics" in adherence to a methodology put in place by Dutchman Han Berger during his five-year reign as the FFA’s technical director from 2009-2014 is partly to blame for what ails Australia.

Link to thread:
 https://forum.insidesport.com.au/2674250/Australia-is-producing-robots-says-AIS-youth-guru-Smith?PageIndex=1



There is widespread agreement that goalscoring is an issue, but Ron is wrong about the production of robots. 

Ron was displaced from the old system, and sent on his way.  He is angry he was discarded by the likes of Dutch FFA TDs Baan and Berger.

As  national TD he didn't establish a national holistic system with uniformity in coaching methodology across the country.

Having said this, he advances interesting perspectives on a range of issues. 

Ron has also posted in the Performance section on this forum. Moreover, he assisted a mate of mine to write a book on the False 9.
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Decentric - 4 Sep 2019 11:26 PM
miron mercedes - 4 Sep 2019 1:28 PM

What the eclectic approach showed though, was little success in international football.

All powerhouses tend to have systems of play they adhere to. There is a lot of common ground in powerhouses, with Italy proving to be  the exception.

Italy tend to be the only  powerhouse deploying a different approach.



Can you explain how Brazil and Argentina have won so many WC's without a NC?









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AJF - 5 Sep 2019 1:04 PM
Decentric - 4 Sep 2019 11:26 PM

Can you explain how Brazil and Argentina have won so many WC's without a NC?

The FFA football educators who have educated you in your C Licence, have argued they do, within a context of playing Proactive football.
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Decentric - 6 Sep 2019 10:33 AM
AJF - 5 Sep 2019 1:04 PM

The FFA football educators who have educated you in your C Licence, have argued they do, within a context of playing Proactive football.
pele-quote-about-ginga










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I still laugh at coaches, players and fans who seem to think they line their players up in a 352, 442, 433 whatever it may be and their job is done. They have no concept of formation fluidity through transition and will defend their position and knowledge on the game till they're blue in the face.........
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@miron, speaking as a current coach, the NC doesn't actually require every coach to use the dutch 433 or any system for that matter What it does is provides a "professional" coaching framework around which coaches can develop their playing philosophies and then develop training plans to achieve them. I can say without doubt that the C-license course and NC has helped improve my coaching but I do not employ the 433 nor everthing in the NC (ie I often dont play a training game at the end of training sessions as I prefer to keep working on a specific game aspect). 

The inflexibility comes from the many "non-football" people who have gotten the coaching badges are using the NC as a crutch to support their lack of knowledge and understanding of football. For example if you played AFL all your life then get your C-license so you can coach your sons team in NPL (no I am not joking there are people like this coaching kids as we speak) all you know is whats in the NC as this is what you picked up during the training so what else can you talk about.

At the top end, your comments about the HAL are spot on and the fear of losing the ball pervades most teams so you end up with thie stodgy passing backwards no risk style of play which often makes the HAL unwatchable. Unfortunately this mentality flows into the HAL academies and when good kids are picked up out of the NPL teams the HAL academies ensure all creativity is drained and keeping possession is the only goal. There are many senior NPL coaches who wont look at returning HAL academy players as they are passing robots (normally backwards) and have difficulty adapting to different styles.

One final observation, I dont particularly rate Arzani as a special player, but one thing he did do was try go forward and be creative, which is so rare in the HAL from Aussie players that people got really excited.











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AJF - 4 Sep 2019 2:46 PM
@miron, speaking as a current coach, the NC doesn't actually require every coach to use the dutch 433 or any system for that matter What it does is provides a "professional" coaching framework around which coaches can develop their playing philosophies and then develop training plans to achieve them. I can say without doubt that the C-license course and NC has helped improve my coaching but I do not employ the 433 nor everthing in the NC (ie I often dont play a training game at the end of training sessions as I prefer to keep working on a specific game aspect). 

The inflexibility comes from the many "non-football" people who have gotten the coaching badges are using the NC as a crutch to support their lack of knowledge and understanding of football. For example if you played AFL all your life then get your C-license so you can coach your sons team in NPL (no I am not joking there are people like this coaching kids as we speak) all you know is whats in the NC as this is what you picked up during the training so what else can you talk about.

At the top end, your comments about the HAL are spot on and the fear of losing the ball pervades most teams so you end up with thie stodgy passing backwards no risk style of play which often makes the HAL unwatchable. Unfortunately this mentality flows into the HAL academies and when good kids are picked up out of the NPL teams the HAL academies ensure all creativity is drained and keeping possession is the only goal. There are many senior NPL coaches who wont look at returning HAL academy players as they are passing robots (normally backwards) and have difficulty adapting to different styles.

One final observation, I dont particularly rate Arzani as a special player, but one thing he did do was try go forward and be creative, which is so rare in the HAL from Aussie players that people got really excited.



Good to read your doing it your way but as you mention there is some good points in the NC.....
The problem is some Coachs I've watched train my boys (not like your experience down south ie AFL background getting C lic OMG) PL3 and this is a German Coach carried out NC by the book that I could see and turned 2 potential winning squads he had over 2 seasons into park the bus robots.
Any kid with flair was frowned upon and berated @ HT for eg.
Some of these kids were potential match winners, free kicks just near the box that were chance goals was called out "play ball" so the simple pass retaining possession FFS.
A Miron, I agree have we squeezed out far too much of the ethnic game.
As AJF mentions comes down to ingraining your own philosophy so to speak - whats wrong with throwing in the good from the current NC and the good from the NSL ethnic style of play.
We saw how good the Crows did making it to the WC Final, the Dutch are doing ok again, the Italians are re grouping and looking good etcetc....
We have such a mix here as we all know re backgrounds which is great but its NC Barcelona ticka tacka, reset reset reset, all the ball in the world doesn't win you games unless you have the skill to play one touch football that we do not currently and we have weeded out individualism game breakers.
It drives me nuts watching Youth many times but at PL1/2/3 levels I'm still enjoying some good games.
FFACup game we went to Sydney United vs PL2 St George was a cracking game of good football that went to extra time and a 8 goal thriller.
Our kids need to play like that.





Love Football

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AJF - 4 Sep 2019 2:46 PM
@miron, speaking as a current coach, the NC doesn't actually require every coach to use the dutch 433 or any system for that matter What it does is provides a "professional" coaching framework around which coaches can develop their playing philosophies and then develop training plans to achieve them. I can say without doubt that the C-license course and NC has helped improve my coaching but I do not employ the 433 nor everthing in the NC (ie I often dont play a training game at the end of training sessions as I prefer to keep working on a specific game aspect). 

The inflexibility comes from the many "non-football" people who have gotten the coaching badges are using the NC as a crutch to support their lack of knowledge and understanding of football. For example if you played AFL all your life then get your C-license so you can coach your sons team in NPL (no I am not joking there are people like this coaching kids as we speak) all you know is whats in the NC as this is what you picked up during the training so what else can you talk about.

At the top end, your comments about the HAL are spot on and the fear of losing the ball pervades most teams so you end up with thie stodgy passing backwards no risk style of play which often makes the HAL unwatchable. Unfortunately this mentality flows into the HAL academies and when good kids are picked up out of the NPL teams the HAL academies ensure all creativity is drained and keeping possession is the only goal. There are many senior NPL coaches who wont look at returning HAL academy players as they are passing robots (normally backwards) and have difficulty adapting to different styles.

One final observation, I dont particularly rate Arzani as a special player, but one thing he did do was try go forward and be creative, which is so rare in the HAL from Aussie players that people got really excited.



That’s correct, the people that follow the NC rigidly have little to no knowledge of the game and often have little time to plan a good session together.

Which is why the robot term has been bandied around, the smart ones knows it’s a just base and the rest is on them.

The robot myth needs to be busted for the types that know little about football or just don’t have the time to plan a good session together.
Edited
6 Years Ago by Barca4Life
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Barca4Life - 4 Sep 2019 6:56 PM
AJF - 4 Sep 2019 2:46 PM

That’s correct, the people that follow the NC rigidly have little to no knowledge of the game and often have little time to plan a good session together.

Which is why the robot term has been bandied around, the smart ones knows it’s a just base and the rest is on them.

The robot myth needs to be busted for the types that know little about football or just don’t have the time to plan a good session together.

I agree. But not only is it mostly those with little football/coaching knowledge who seem to be using the NC rigidly, I also would argue that it has still potentially been good for those coaches and has them coaching at a higher standard. At least now the uneducated/inexperienced have something to guide to, rather than the "clear it" I used to always hear from the sidelines.

Replacing "clear it" types with robotic keep possession types seems like a win to me. 
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Sebr1968 - 25 Aug 2019 3:28 PM
As much as I hated the way football was run in Australia in the past (especially the NSL era), one thing I will say, Australian youth football teams would regularly qualify for numerous FIFA tournaments and the Olympics, where they were very competitive. But over the last 15 or so years, the standard of our youth teams has gone to shit, where did it all go wrong?

I know in the past we had the AIS in Canberra where there was a football division, is this still around?

Since the A-League clubs have been given control of football (as we are led to believe), what plans do the A-League owners have for youth development?, eg. the setting up of youth acedemies.

In  the epoch when Australia did well in some underage tournaments, we failed to qualify for a senior World Cup for 32 years!

This underage stars didn't progress to fulfil the early promise as performers in international football. 

Their faults  were identified and a new curriculum was designed to redress those issues.

The main issue  has been not  having a viable second division  or not  enough professional clubs in Aus to provide sufficient pathways.

There was an interesting podcast  with Craig Foster and Mark Rudan, where they elucidated that many of their former  players they had developed, just could never ever get an opportunity to play HAL. Most quit, and thanked their coaches before doing  so.

They felt they had been given good coaching, but never had a genuine opportunity to showcase their skills in a professional scenario.



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Those "powerhouses" have a long history of competitive international football. Australia, because of its geographical situation hasn't always had this.

The powerhouses have a long tradition of strong well supported clubs. Australia has always had a tradition of fly by night clubs, many of them not well supported.

In addition, Australia has the handicap of soccer not being the most popular football code.

And yet dicentric still mocks our "32 years without qualifying". When we qualified in 74 it was mainly an NSW state league effort- it wasn't even a unified national effort.
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localstar - 5 Sep 2019 1:58 PM
Those "powerhouses" have a long history of competitive international football. Australia, because of its geographical situation hasn't always had this.

The powerhouses have a long tradition of strong well supported clubs. Australia has always had a tradition of fly by night clubs, many of them not well supported.

In addition, Australia has the handicap of soccer not being the most popular football code.

And yet dicentric still mocks our "32 years without qualifying". When we qualified in 74 it was mainly an NSW state league effort- it wasn't even a unified national effort.

Also worth noting that when the current crop of socceroos have difficulty beating powerhouses like thailand there is no way in hell they would have gotten through the oceania qualifying path









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localstar - 5 Sep 2019 1:58 PM
Those "powerhouses" have a long history of competitive international football. Australia, because of its geographical situation hasn't always had this.

The powerhouses have a long tradition of strong well supported clubs. Australia has always had a tradition of fly by night clubs, many of them not well supported.

In addition, Australia has the handicap of soccer not being the most popular football code.

And yet dicentric still mocks our "32 years without qualifying". When we qualified in 74 it was mainly an NSW state league effort- it wasn't even a unified national effort.

Usually he says 32 years of FAILURE.

Had to laugh the other day there were half a dozen new posts on the main board with Decentric being the last contributor.  4 out of those 6 had his go-to '32 years of failure' catchphrase.

Was it Goebbels or Hitler that said 'if you say a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it'.


 


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the real answer or the start of the answer is 1973...



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The catalyst and starting time was 1973... maybe slightly before in some cases and behind in others... but 1973 is the key date...  when you analyse the importance of 1973 to Football's training and development in Australia it will change your mind about many of current arguments on both sides i.e. pro and con current methods... 
Edited
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Midfielder - 6 Sep 2019 4:06 PM
The catalyst and starting time was 1973... maybe slightly before in some cases and behind in others... but 1973 is the key date...  when you analyse the importance of 1973 to Football's training and development in Australia it will change your mind about many of current arguments on both sides i.e. pro and con current methods... 

Why 1973? What was the major change?
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MarkfromCroydon - 6 Sep 2019 5:43 PM
Midfielder - 6 Sep 2019 4:06 PM

Why 1973? What was the major change?

  Why 1973

In 1973, a number of events had already started that when combined with the 1973 event meant Australia’s Football Development would forever and ill-reversable change. I will fully explain why 1973 but first a bit of a preamble.

After WW!! Europe lay in waste, and its well documented Australia had a huge influx of European migrants especially from major Football playing nations, Germany, Holland, Greece, Croatia, Italy, Turkey, Serbia etc. You could also add Scotland, England as well but they had always been coming.

By the early 70’s  Europe was different place to the immediate post war Europe and the massive influx of migrants slowed from these countries.

The coaching of heaps of junior players was by the Dads from these Football understanding nations who passed both their love of Football but also they brought technical knowledge. Moreover by 1955 in the Sydney competitions migrant groups formed teams and competition that essentially took over from Regional Association rep sides.

Many players who played in the NSL and many coaches in the NSL came through the training provided with love and free of charge and a genuine desire to improve Football by the migrant parents .

In 1973, Gough Withlam, threw out the “””White Australia Policy”” which prior to 1973 essentially restricted our immigration policy to European.

With improvements in European living standards and the withdrawal of the White Australia Policy, our migrant demographic changed slowly at first but massively. The new migrants arguably the first were the Vietnamese when Mr Malcom Fraser said they could come after the war. This was quickly followed by people from the Middle East, India, Asian in general and from the mid 80’s a huge Chinese intake.

None of the new waves of migrants had either the passion or technical knowledge of the European migrants of the late 40’s, 50’s, 60’s and say to the mid 70’s

By the mid 90’s that indescribable and base knowledge of Footballs migrant European Dads in our park teams was going.

1973 is a turning point when the Football passion, knowledge and technical skills was not coming in waves from Europe.    


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Midfielder - 6 Sep 2019 4:06 PM
The catalyst and starting time was 1973... maybe slightly before in some cases and behind in others... but 1973 is the key date...  when you analyse the importance of 1973 to Football's training and development in Australia it will change your mind about many of current arguments on both sides i.e. pro and con current methods... 

Our exposure to Total Football through our qualification for the 1974 World Cup?  It brought us in touch with what was happening with football worldwide rather than being hitched to the tactics and football heritage of the nations our coaches came from.
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@ AJF and Decentric.  The FIFA Technical Study Group has an analysis of each teams play at WC2018 Russia.  Have a read of it and then continue your "discussion".

https://img.fifa.com/image/upload/xgwsmrcals5qku0nmrge.pdf

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Gyfox - 6 Sep 2019 4:38 PM
@ AJF and Decentric.  The FIFA Technical Study Group has an analysis of each teams play at WC2018 Russia.  Have a read of it and then continue your "discussion".

https://img.fifa.com/image/upload/xgwsmrcals5qku0nmrge.pdf

Thanks a bunch   for the link, Gyfox. 

However, I'm quite capable  of analysing  games myself. The FIFA Tech Dept concluded the  Aus formation was exactly as I stated it was - a 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3 manifestation. I've spent  years doing this stuff and have spent months and months  undertaking coach education studying it.

There is a lot of other interesting data though.

Australia had a possession ascendancy of 51% over the WC. This was despite deploying a Reactive approach against France, ceding possession.  
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Personally I thought the NC laments the lack of creative footballers (an issue it wanted to address was pick up games, mentioned why countries such as Brazil are so strong... not just football in Australia struggling at this).

Furthermore 2 of the 4 core skills according to the NC are 1v1 and running with the ball (so if coaches are creating passing robots then they are not following the NC - passing is part of the striking skill which also includes shooting, crossing). The NC encourages creativity IMO, it is coaches who stifle it (esp those afraid to lose or worried about the win today rather than the title) 

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sokorny - 6 Sep 2019 5:24 PM
Personally I thought the NC laments the lack of creative footballers (an issue it wanted to address was pick up games, mentioned why countries such as Brazil are so strong... not just football in Australia struggling at this).

Furthermore 2 of the 4 core skills according to the NC are 1v1 and running with the ball (so if coaches are creating passing robots then they are not following the NC - passing is part of the striking skill which also includes shooting, crossing). The NC encourages creativity IMO, it is coaches who stifle it (esp those afraid to lose or worried about the win today rather than the title) 

Quality post, Sokorny.
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Decentric - 7 Sep 2019 11:53 AM
sokorny - 6 Sep 2019 5:24 PM

Quality post, Sokorny.

The problem is these coaches don’t show kids how to take on players and be creative. Private academies are doing this job for them. That’s the truth.
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Just to add a tad more .... the migrant Dads in those park teams and in the streets taught the 4 to say 12 year olds touch.
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Midfielder - 6 Sep 2019 11:04 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Just to add a tad more .... the migrant Dads in those park teams and in the streets taught the 4 to say 12 year olds touch.

This is just fanciful Mid. Makes a nice story but no, misses the point 
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It can’t be to bad you got a draw against NZLu23 👋

Clear Contact There

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Just a reminder, decentric. This is a forum for discussing football. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Just shut up with your "only qualified coaches know what they are talking about" bullshit.
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localstar - 7 Sep 2019 10:47 AM
Just a reminder, decentric. This is a forum for discussing football. Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Just shut up with your "only qualified coaches know what they are talking about" bullshit.

I've never stated  that to be the case - that only qualified coaches know what they are talking about and are entitled to an opinion on football.

I agree everyone is entitled to an opinion - and - football  discussion can easily circumvent personal attacks.
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only people who seem to be able to develop top class young players is Westfield sports high.. 

the AIS also developed many quality players killing that was a mistake 
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jas88 - 7 Sep 2019 11:28 AM
only people who seem to be able to develop top class young players is Westfield sports high.. 

the AIS also developed many quality players killing that was a mistake 

It is an interesting concept that doesn't exist here.

When I saw a documentary on Aaron Mooy I loved some of the football  training ground practices they used at Westfield.
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jas88 - 7 Sep 2019 11:28 AM
only people who seem to be able to develop top class young players is Westfield sports high.. 

the AIS also developed many quality players killing that was a mistake 

Can you tell me how long a player was at AIS and from what ages? 
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jas88 - 7 Sep 2019 11:28 AM
only people who seem to be able to develop top class young players is Westfield sports high.. 

the AIS also developed many quality players killing that was a mistake 

The AIS defnitely did need a shake up, but I agree it didn't need to be turfed completely - rather, the football program needed to evolve and become more of a 'finishing school' for our best and brightest. The bulk of youth development should be done by clubs, but the AIS could have provided the specialist coaching to take those who are deemed international quality to another level. Kids continue to play at their clubs in their home states, but four times a year (every school holidays) the best kids from around the country are brought into camp in Canberra for two weeks where the national coaches can run their eye over them.

Just my 2c.
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walnuts - 7 Sep 2019 12:25 PM
jas88 - 7 Sep 2019 11:28 AM

The AIS defnitely did need a shake up, but I agree it didn't need to be turfed completely - rather, the football program needed to evolve and become more of a 'finishing school' for our best and brightest. The bulk of youth development should be done by clubs, but the AIS could have provided the specialist coaching to take those who are deemed international quality to another level. Kids continue to play at their clubs in their home states, but four times a year (every school holidays) the best kids from around the country are brought into camp in Canberra for two weeks where the national coaches can run their eye over them.

Just my 2c.

That happens now, just not in Canberra. 
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walnuts - 7 Sep 2019 12:25 PM
jas88 - 7 Sep 2019 11:28 AM

The AIS defnitely did need a shake up, but I agree it didn't need to be turfed completely - rather, the football program needed to evolve and become more of a 'finishing school' for our best and brightest. The bulk of youth development should be done by clubs, but the AIS could have provided the specialist coaching to take those who are deemed international quality to another level. Kids continue to play at their clubs in their home states, but four times a year (every school holidays) the best kids from around the country are brought into camp in Canberra for two weeks where the national coaches can run their eye over them.

Just my 2c.

A good 2c worth too, Walnuts. 

Fair play to you. 
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walnuts - 7 Sep 2019 12:25 PM
jas88 - 7 Sep 2019 11:28 AM
C
The AIS defnitely did need a shake up, but I agree it didn't need to be turfed completely - rather, the football program needed to evolve and become more of a 'finishing school' for our best and brightest. The bulk of youth development should be done by clubs, but the AIS could have provided the specialist coaching to take those who are deemed international quality to another level. Kids continue to play at their clubs in their home states, but four times a year (every school holidays) the best kids from around the country are brought into camp in Canberra for two weeks where the national coaches can run their eye over them.

Just my 2c.

Anything was better than just nuking it.

 If I was loaded and head of FFA, I'd have rejigged it into a specialised pathway for kids from rural areas who have no A-League pathway to move into.


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melbourne_terrace - 8 Sep 2019 8:54 AM
walnuts - 7 Sep 2019 12:25 PM

Anything was better than just nuking it.

 If I was loaded and head of FFA, I'd have rejigged it into a specialised pathway for kids from rural areas who have no A-League pathway to move into.

That's a good suggestion but it would have meant that the FFA would have had to find the money to run it because the program would not have met the criteria for continued AIS high performance funding.
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walnuts - 7 Sep 2019 12:25 PM
jas88 - 7 Sep 2019 11:28 AM

The AIS defnitely did need a shake up, but I agree it didn't need to be turfed completely - rather, the football program needed to evolve and become more of a 'finishing school' for our best and brightest. The bulk of youth development should be done by clubs, but the AIS could have provided the specialist coaching to take those who are deemed international quality to another level. Kids continue to play at their clubs in their home states, but four times a year (every school holidays) the best kids from around the country are brought into camp in Canberra for two weeks where the national coaches can run their eye over them.

Just my 2c.

Good 2 cents
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NC hasn't been in action for long enough. Give it another 10 years then we will see.
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There are some fundamental issues with junior football that having nothing to do with “big picture stuff”, AIS, FFA etc 

This is how it should work: 

All kids pay a fair and reasonable amount to access suitable facilities. They are graded according to ability and placed in teams with children of similar ability in competitions suited to their ability, and against opponents of similar ability. The better teams get the better coaches and kids get promoted up/demoted down a team based on ability and team fit. revenue raised does not “run the club” and only runs the teams. 

This is how how it actually works:

kids are graded at U9/10 and again at U11/12 and places in a SAP stream or a non SAP stream. 

SAP stream kids are often selected on traits such as speed and slower kids with football ability can often be overlooked. SAP streams get C Grade coaches and they pay a lot of money for the privilege. They play in SAP competitions which do not necessarily contain the best players, but merely the best players plus those who’s parents can afford to pay to keep them there. Once in it’s difficult to get knocked down a stream, no club coach wants the conversation “thanks for the $2k/year bit we’ve now decided little Jonnies not good enough so we’re relegating him”; so they get to stay when it’s obvious they shouldn’t be. SAP fees are used to part fund other club activities. 

Non-SAP stream kids are given “best effort” coaching with volunteers with little or no coaching experience just a willingness to have a go. Teams aren’t graded properly and those with ability get mixed with those that don’t, most kids are there for fun and exercise but as youngsters develop and grow the good ones start to shine (often negated in their early years because they weren’t the fastest).  But now there’s no ability to elevate them in to SAP or give them appropriate skills other than Dad-coaches best effort. 

At U18 we lose most of these kids and merge the rest  into U18 and U20 streams, by now the best of the best are in the local State or HAL Academy and the rest continue on towards social and possibly NPL football, or somewhere in between. 

The first option is clean, simple and easy to implement. We don’t do this. 

The second option is complex, a little bit corrupt, and messy. We do this. 
Edited
6 Years Ago by Waz
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@waz 

can you you please confirm- are you talking about 

Skill Acquisition Program (SAP)

or
The Roar scam that they named the same
Strategic Academy Partnership (SAP)

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scott20won - 7 Sep 2019 3:14 PM
@waz 

can you you please confirm- are you talking about 

Skill Acquisition Program (SAP)

or
The Roar scam that they named the same
Strategic Academy Partnership (SAP)

I’ve photographed your response and passed it on to the club. 
Edited
6 Years Ago by Waz
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Waz - 7 Sep 2019 3:18 PM
scott20won - 7 Sep 2019 3:14 PM

I’ve photographed your response and passed it on to the club. 

Just a waste of resources really
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scott20won - 7 Sep 2019 3:20 PM
Waz - 7 Sep 2019 3:18 PM

Just a waste of resources really

I can’t comment as I’m not involved with any Roar programs. If you think it’s a scam it’s best they comment themselves. 

Clearly in the context of my post i was I was talking about the Skills Acquisition Program 
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Waz - 7 Sep 2019 3:24 PM
scott20won - 7 Sep 2019 3:20 PM

I can’t comment as I’m not involved with any Roar programs. If you think it’s a scam it’s best they comment themselves. 

Clearly in the context of my post i was I was talking about the Skills Acquisition Program 

Probs the best post regarding kids of Aus development in a long long time , 
nect question is how to correct it.
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notarobot - 7 Sep 2019 10:06 PM
Waz - 7 Sep 2019 3:24 PM

Probs the best post regarding kids of Aus development in a long long time , 
nect question is how to correct it.

True. 

If it’s not illegal it’s not a scam.

im not the ethics police, I am the fun police. 
Edited
6 Years Ago by scott20won
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We need something because think the aleague academies might not be enough, a lot of these south East Asian nations are moving towards centralised models and starting to beat us at youth level whilst we have gone the opposite with the club based model.

Should we look to go a Clairfontaine model where the best kids from say 12-15 get the best specialised coaching they can get along with the aleague and NPL academy stuff?

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Sebr1968 - 25 Aug 2019 3:28 PM
As much as I hated the way football was run in Australia in the past (especially the NSL era), one thing I will say, Australian youth football teams would regularly qualify for numerous FIFA tournaments and the Olympics, where they were very competitive. But over the last 15 or so years, the standard of our youth teams has gone to shit, where did it all go wrong?

I know in the past we had the AIS in Canberra where there was a football division, is this still around?

Since the A-League clubs have been given control of football (as we are led to believe), what plans do the A-League owners have for youth development?, eg. the setting up of youth acedemies.

Why?
Reason 1
The FFA and HAL are the primary bodies responsible for developing youth in this Country as they are the only ones with the money to do it. They have provided nothing to the state clubs.

Reason 2
Cost of rego from U8 to U12 = $1500
Cost of rego from U13 to U16 = $2500
Then there are the other expenses minimum total  $14,000 for one child get to U16.  + Parents time

Reason 3
FFA lack of governance, when you pay your rego will your son or daughter play?
Quality of training provided is better than the old days but cannot compete with the rest of the world. 
Quality of Training is not verified by FFA or State federation. 

Reason 4
Disjointed infrastructure School is 25 km away form the training park for example.

Reason 5
Corrupt club and Federation officials, wink wink I'll get your son and daughter in

Reason 6
No second division to allow youth to develop.

The reasons are fundamental issues which the FAA is squarely responsible.

My advise, if your child has any potential get out of OZ ASAP, people are doing that now as we speak.    



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Splithead - 11 Sep 2019 4:53 PM
Sebr1968 - 25 Aug 2019 3:28 PM


Reason 2
Cost of rego from U8 to U12 = $1500
Cost of rego from U13 to U16 = $2500
Then there are the other expenses minimum total  $14,000 for one child get to U16.  + Parents time
  

It's not that much.

Local football is circa $200 to $400 per annum.  (2 of my kids pay that.)

One of my kids plays NPL.  That's $1800 a year but I've heard that that can be higher in other cities


Member since 2008.


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Munrubenmuz - 11 Sep 2019 5:09 PM
Splithead - 11 Sep 2019 4:53 PM

It's not that much.

Local football is circa $200 to $400 per annum.  (2 of my kids pay that.)

One of my kids plays NPL.  That's $1800 a year but I've heard that that can be higher in other cities

Sorry mate, I”m still on the merry go round. These figures are factual and current. See my detailed breakdown on other posts, believe me they are conservative figures.

I’m talking about NPL youth level. Your figures are for a local club.

I wish I was wrong !!!

solution: Real governance structures, monitoring implementation by the FFA. Currently your handing over our youth to used car salesmen.
Edited
6 Years Ago by Splithead
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Splithead - 12 Sep 2019 4:41 PM
Munrubenmuz - 11 Sep 2019 5:09 PM

Sorry mate, I”m still on the merry go round. These figures are factual and current. See my detailed breakdown on other posts, believe me they are conservative figures.

I’m talking about NPL youth level. Your figures are for a local club.

I wish I was wrong !!!

solution: Real governance structures, monitoring implementation by the FFA. Currently your handing over our youth to used car salesmen.

Your figures may be right for NPL.  

Anyway in a free market system the FFA is hardly wallowing in enough cash to subsidise every NPL player in Australia to bring fees down.

Short of clubs themselves bringing in big sponsors I'm not sure what can be done.




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Edited
6 Years Ago by Munrubenmuz
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Munrubenmuz - 12 Sep 2019 4:56 PM
Splithead - 12 Sep 2019 4:41 PM

Your figures may be right for NPL.  

Anyway in a free market system the FFA is hardly wallowing in enough cash to subsidise every NPL player in Australia to bring fees down.

Short of clubs themselves bringing in big sponsors I'm not sure what can be done.


In this day and age, ipads etc one guy can do a check for 2 clubs a night. Next day send the letter out for nonconformace. Done!!! This costs f..k all. 

They federation and FFA coordinators just dont want DOB their mates in !! Get it.
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Check out new FFA TD chef Rob Sherman’s presentation about his plans for youth development, a strong focus will put into club development through Categories rather than a centralised training environment.

It looks something like this:

Category 1: Full time, pay free
Category 2: Full time/part time, pay free
Category 3: Part time, user pays
Category 4: Part time, user pays.

The new program will roll out this year (says it’s a bit late for unknown reason?), category 1 will be assessed by state feds, category 2,3,4 will be assessed by FFA, not every club has to enroll if they don’t wish to or feel are not ready.
Overall wants buy in from the ones who want to be involved if they are fully committed to youth development, they all start at a realistic level and work from here.
Implementation the new program will done via an online portal to avoid dodgy problems.

He overall thinks the youth development pathway and system is an mess with little clarity.

He also thinks you should not judge results too soon as a indicator of players quality, RAE having a big factor at youth level.

Will also see a make over of the C, B and A license and focus on skill acquisition phase only, like wise for youth level and senior as seperate modules or something like that.

Thinks that the younger players coming through are better technically especially under pressure but often lack in intelligence and and what’s around them off the ball.

Shows how vital is for young players to rack up volume of minutes between 17-21 mostly at domestic football as key indicator for national team success, doesn’t mention much of national 2nd division but mentions the current u20 rule at NYL as horrendous.

Wants an open debate about how the ROE will be achieved whether through transfer compensation, system clubs, or wait for the FIFA money if they go enough for overseas.

Whether this is a new dawn or we go to another plan in the future only time will tell.

Check it out.

https://youtu.be/bdBLJvVUW_c

Edited
6 Years Ago by Barca4Life
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Barca4Life - 13 Sep 2019 2:05 AM
Check out new FFA TD chef Rob Sherman’s presentation about his plans for youth development, a strong focus will put into club development through Categories rather than a centralised training environment.

It looks something like this:

Category 1: Full time, pay free
Category 2: Full time/part time, pay free
Category 3: Part time, user pays
Category 4: Part time, user pays.

The new program will roll out this year (says it’s a bit late for unknown reason?), category 1 will be assessed by state feds, category 2,3,4 will be assessed by FFA, not every club has to enroll if they don’t wish to or feel are not ready.
Overall wants buy in from the ones who want to be involved if they are fully committed to youth development, they all start at a realistic level and work from here.
Implementation the new program will done via an online portal to avoid dodgy problems.

He overall thinks the youth development pathway and system is an mess with little clarity.

He also thinks you should not judge results too soon as a indicator of players quality, RAE having a big factor at youth level.

Will also see a make over of the C, B and A license and focus on skill acquisition phase only, like wise for youth level and senior as seperate modules or something like that.

Thinks that the younger players coming through are better technically especially under pressure but often lack in intelligence and and what’s around them off the ball.

Shows how vital is for young players to rack up volume of minutes between 17-21 mostly at domestic football as key indicator for national team success, doesn’t mention much of national 2nd division but mentions the current u20 rule at NYL as horrendous.

Wants an open debate about how the ROE will be achieved whether through transfer compensation, system clubs, or wait for the FIFA money if they go enough for overseas.

Whether this is a new dawn or we go to another plan in the future only time will tell.

Check it out.

https://youtu.be/bdBLJvVUW_c

Thanks for posting that. 

The comment “Thinks that the younger players coming through are better technically especially under pressure but often lack in intelligence and and what’s around them off the ball” certainly rings true. 

Technical coaches are very common but coaches who have played the game extensively and can coach game awareness are far fewer. Perhaps 1 in 5 even. 
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Waz - 13 Sep 2019 7:44 AM
Barca4Life - 13 Sep 2019 2:05 AM

Thanks for posting that. 

The comment “Thinks that the younger players coming through are better technically especially under pressure but often lack in intelligence and and what’s around them off the ball” certainly rings true. 

Technical coaches are very common but coaches who have played the game extensively and can coach game awareness are far fewer. Perhaps 1 in 5 even. 

yes it is good point made......
The coachs I'm around get very frustrated on players not using their common sense and lack of awareness.
Turning back into the traffic, passing the hospital ball and even passing as if it will go through a opponent they are a ghost lol.....
Not quick enough in control and release and get caught out easily.
So many more.



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LFC. - 13 Sep 2019 12:25 PM
Waz - 13 Sep 2019 7:44 AM

yes it is good point made......
The coachs I'm around get very frustrated on players not using their common sense and lack of awareness.
Turning back into the traffic, passing the hospital ball and even passing as if it will go through a opponent they are a ghost lol.....
Not quick enough in control and release and get caught out easily.
So many more.


lol, everything you’ve written there is spot on and I’ve seen every weekend this year in U18’s with good technical ability (and sadly the “many more” comment is true too) 

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LFC. - 13 Sep 2019 12:25 PM
Waz - 13 Sep 2019 7:44 AM

yes it is good point made......
The coachs I'm around get very frustrated on players not using their common sense and lack of awareness.
Turning back into the traffic, passing the hospital ball and even passing as if it will go through a opponent they are a ghost lol.....
Not quick enough in control and release and get caught out easily.
So many more.


It’s easy to blame the kids but who was the coach that let them develop these bad habits?








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AJF - 13 Sep 2019 6:06 PM
LFC. - 13 Sep 2019 12:25 PM

It’s easy to blame the kids but who was the coach that let them develop these bad habits?

It is the coaches/clubs fault. That was the point being made. 
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Waz - 13 Sep 2019 6:43 PM
AJF - 13 Sep 2019 6:06 PM
LFC. - 13 Sep 2019 12:25 PM

It’s easy to blame the kids but who was the coach that let them develop these bad habits?

It is the coaches/clubs fault. That was the point being made. 
Doesnt read that way










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AJF - 13 Sep 2019 9:54 PM
Waz - 13 Sep 2019 6:43 PM
Doesnt read that way


You need to read back a bit in the thread. 
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Waz - 13 Sep 2019 9:55 PM
AJF - 13 Sep 2019 9:54 PM

You need to read back a bit in the thread. 

I was responding to the content of a specific post bagging the lack of football intelligence of youngster (which you happened to agree with).

I did read the other posts and if I wanted to comment on them specifically I would have done so. 








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AJF - 13 Sep 2019 10:22 PM
Waz - 13 Sep 2019 9:55 PM

I was responding to the content of a specific post bagging the lack of football intelligence of youngster (which you happened to agree with).

I did read the other posts and if I wanted to comment on them specifically I would have done so. 

I get reading back over long threads is challenging. 

But just to clarify - we were both agreeing that the inadequacy in certain youth players is down to coaching. 
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Waz - 13 Sep 2019 10:38 PM
AJF - 13 Sep 2019 10:22 PM

I get reading back over long threads is challenging. 

But just to clarify - we were both agreeing that the inadequacy in certain youth players is down to coaching. 

I can remember years ago when Craig Moore came to the Roar , he made a comment that the one very big difference between European leagues and the A-League was the spatial awareness of Aussie players .
It was mostly non existent.

He said that in Europe before a player receives a ball he has already had a quick look around and knows where he is in relation to others...so he knows where his opponents are and what his options are for passing.
He said Aussie players tend to get the ball, then look up and think of what they will do with it .

Our players are improving at this but it needs to be drilled into players from when they first start kicking a ball as a kid .
It is how the really good players always seem to have so much time when they get a ball ...
Think Broich, Ninkovic etc ...they know before they have received it exactly where their opponents are and where their teammates are .
These sort of players can receive a ball and pass it before an opponent can even get near them .
It's like playing against a ghost.
They are incredibly hard to play against as you feel you can't touch them
...and it all comes down to something so simple...they know where they are in relation to others at all times .

Having said this... it does need great technical skills as well ...the quicker you can control a ball the more time you have .
So ,yes, our players are becoming technically better (and that is fantastic) but it needs to be married to spatial awareness.
We are getting there but we need to keep honing our training techniques .


Edited
6 Years Ago by miron mercedes
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miron mercedes - 14 Sep 2019 10:48 AM
Waz - 13 Sep 2019 10:38 PM

I can remember years ago when Craig Moore came to the Roar , he made a comment that the one very big difference between European leagues and the A-League was the spatial awareness of Aussie players .
It was mostly non existent.

He said that in Europe before a player receives a ball he has already had a quick look around and knows where he is in relation to others...so he knows where his opponents are and what his options are for passing.
He said Aussie players tend to get the ball the look up and think of what they will do with it .

Our players are improving at this but it needs to be drilled into players from when they first start kicking a ball as a kid .
It is how the really good players always seem to have so much time when they get a ball ...
Think Broich, Ninkovic etc ...they know before they have received it exactly where their opponents are and where their teammates are .
These sort of players can receive a ball and pass it before an opponent can even get near them .
It's like playing against a ghost.
They are incredibly hard to play against as you feel you can't touch them
...and it all comes down to something so simple...they know where they are in relation to others at all times .

Having said this... it does need great technical skills as well ...the quicker you can control a ball the more time you have .
So ,yes, our players are becoming technically better (and that is fantastic) but it needs to be married to spatial awareness.
We are getting there but we need to keep honing our training techniques .

+1
Great post!!









Edited
6 Years Ago by Sebr1968
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miron mercedes - 14 Sep 2019 10:48 AM
Waz - 13 Sep 2019 10:38 PM

I can remember years ago when Craig Moore came to the Roar , he made a comment that the one very big difference between European leagues and the A-League was the spatial awareness of Aussie players .
It was mostly non existent.

He said that in Europe before a player receives a ball he has already had a quick look around and knows where he is in relation to others...so he knows where his opponents are and what his options are for passing.
He said Aussie players tend to get the ball the look up and think of what they will do with it .

Our players are improving at this but it needs to be drilled into players from when they first start kicking a ball as a kid .
It is how the really good players always seem to have so much time when they get a ball ...
Think Broich, Ninkovic etc ...they know before they have received it exactly where their opponents are and where their teammates are .
These sort of players can receive a ball and pass it before an opponent can even get near them .
It's like playing against a ghost.
They are incredibly hard to play against as you feel you can't touch them
...and it all comes down to something so simple...they know where they are in relation to others at all times .

Having said this... it does need great technical skills as well ...the quicker you can control a ball the more time you have .
So ,yes, our players are becoming technically better (and that is fantastic) but it needs to be married to spatial awareness.
We are getting there but we need to keep honing our training techniques .


Absolutely spot on. It's the one thing that we should be teaching young players....space, how to use it and how to recognise it. 
I saw a great quote once, to paraphrase..' football is all about space, you are either moving into it or moving out of it to let your teammates use it'
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Waz - 13 Sep 2019 7:44 AM
Barca4Life - 13 Sep 2019 2:05 AM

Thanks for posting that. 

The comment “Thinks that the younger players coming through are better technically especially under pressure but often lack in intelligence and and what’s around them off the ball” certainly rings true. 

Technical coaches are very common but coaches who have played the game extensively and can coach game awareness are far fewer. Perhaps 1 in 5 even. 

I just wished to bring this back into discussion for us all if thats ok.
Maybe I'm talking crap :)
More so you coachs that I notice here such as AJF, TFL, Waz and others.
AJF made the point the Coachs have allowed some of these players not being "aware" and making "error" repeatedly.
Now I'm just a ol football playing tragic who played Prem/Div 1 levesl (still playing) and been around some good coaching and 2 boys having gone through YL and now in PL3.
So I live and breath it but by no means do I claim being a coach.
My sideline observations are my opinions/observations but from what I see - getting a good Coach is like the lottery.
You win some you lose some, I've seen my boys improve/shine and next season under next Coach go to zero, and I've seen fellow players go through similar......
Now this should not be happening for starters (excl my sons here) to any player who can actually play, in all my years I sure didn't go from say a 8-9 out of 10 season in performance to sub 5 for eg.the following and I never saw that with fellow competitors.
One the Club itself is responsible imo - they should step in more questioning why X player is going backwards to assigned coach but that depends on the type of Club management I guess.
2 does the Coach see/understand what his "philosophy" is doing to X good players ? I don't see them change much regards to a players ability/strengths but formations contesting the opponent.
Next you see well drilled players keep their start up position instead of the natural ability type player, not always but you can see with your own eyes at games..
Like every sportsperson, some people are more coach-able than others.
Waz this is where you mention the more Techinal type coachs.
Our system/curriculum is part to question here and imo should always be "tinkered" and filtered through down to grass roots as well.
I see many well drilled coach-able kids and their 1st step in Snr grade, U18's/even 20's who by now should have a clue how to play right but you know what, Waz mentioned re U18's and I agree incl 20's - how does any Coach teach "reading the play" ? game awareness ? do they prior getting to that age. How did those kids get through ?
The players with natural ability who can read the play, close touch control, take one 2 on create but many Coachs prefer playing the well drilled same game type of player instead who at times has no game sense but is good at small sided games during training and his enthusiasm, during the games he isn't as polished and being shown.
He's good doing his same ol same ol Mr reliable but his alertness as well is whoah, hang on there.
Doesn't know to step in the hole when play is over the other side is another.
Oh shit my opposing winger is hanging right out on the sideline I need to hang close - but the play is over the bloody other side and its more likely to cut out a switch ball being more central for lets face it, half of them can't play switch ball well much anymore lets face it - oooops did I say that.
Aaaargh there is more but I've probably said enough to inspire some more posting more likely abuse to me lol.....






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Edited
6 Years Ago by LFC.
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@LFC there are a lot of points in your post to discuss, but I can only talk from my perspective and first thing is that development is not linear. The kids develop at different rates physically, technically and even in game understanding so it is impossible to tell who will kick on to what level when.

The thing that bothers me the most is many coaches teach kids to win, not to develop. There are 2 reasons normally, 1 is their own ego, other is job security as many coaching gigs are paid. Case in point, I knew a coach of U9's who was extremely strict with them about positioning and that was the focus of training and games. When they played other U9's they would easily win because at that age kids tend to want to chase the ball so with a structure they were able to easily play around and score heaps of goals. Fast forward a few years and many of these kids simply didnt develop the technical skills other kids did and similarly decision making was lost because they were only taught to follow a winning system.

Again I get annoyed with the many coaches who have got their C or B license but have no understanding of what was taught in the NC course. First myth I will bust is that NC requires everyone to play 433. At the time of the NC, 433 was the preferred structure for the NT and all junior NT's, but individual coaches were free to play as they liked. Yes the material in the NC is based on 433 but that was done to provide a template for coaches to use if they wanted to develop their own style. Like I mentioned elsewhere, there are people with no football experience or "feel" with these qualifications teaching kids and so all they know is what they see on TV (often HAL because they wont get up in the middle of the night) and what is in the NC then we end up with rigid ideas of what football is.

To the point of game smarts, this isnt really that difficult to teach and it was a major focus of the NC where they call it PDE (perception, decision & execution) but it requires preperation and commitment from the coach in terms of setting up appropriate game scenarios and assisting the kids with learning. Many coaches work day jobs and dont have time to adequately prepare and so at training run drills which look Ok but dont actually afford learning opportunities. Similarly playing practice games against other teams are always fun but in my opinion a waste of a learning session. I have been guilty of taking these shortcuts as well so I am not pretending I am a super coach but for many coaches this is the norm. On game day when the coach is yelling advice to every player how are kids expected to learn.

The sad truth about why many kids get through is that many coaches still pick youth players on physical attributes (ie size, speed, etc) because it helps them win and not for technical reasons as there is no immediate benefit for development. Just check out the size of the U15 joeys and compare that to a local U15 team and you will note majority of the Joey's were big boys while local U15's will have a mix of sizes which is normal for that age. This is why many of the junior reps dont kick on and others come out of nowhere (just look at N'Golo Kante's story).

Final issue is the development pathway and biggest difference between the NSL and now is that back then young players were exposed to senior team football early and what many dont understand is this is not just about playing against "men" but actually playing with experienced players who would give you guidance of how to play senior football. This is why the HAL youth teams in NPL comps dont do very well (both Melb teams will be relegated to NPL 3 next year) as one 19O has no real experience to teach the other 19YO's.

I am actually reasonably positive as I am seeing lots of improvements across the park and most importantly, many of the NPL and Grassroots clubs are starting to see the light and are improving, being pushed along by P/R and the pressure to improve this creates.









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well said miron.


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I'm really enjoying this topic so keep posting people. Having been involved in coaching since 2010, it is depressing to see how many problems there are in the game.
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@AJF, yes I should've have set that post in bullet form for there is alot.
Thanks your post gives some insight that I've seen over the years.
1. @ YL Coachs going for the larger kids to beast opponents but not as skilful.
This staggers me for its short term thinking and as you say at the cost of Developing and look at the anti climax as these larger kids then get caught out once the rest catch up or that finally some of the smaller skillful guys get their chance.
I ask why isn't the Reps/TD's from FNSW being my State and the other Federations get their act on the ground and get this corrected ?! or at least get Memo's out on the subject.
This short term win this season at that level is costing long term and wrong for the kids/boys - Club TD's at Trials should pick the best kid suited no matter his size as we all know Football isn't always about how big you are.
2. The License's taken by devoted people/Dads etc, all power to them and god bless them we need them BUT again this needs to come from above regards to expanding their "experience" IF they hadn't played for eg......(having not gone to do a License is their questions on the applicants experience ?)
If not all of these budding Applicants without Experience needs more guidance to me, like in my business, how can my staff know what to do without training/support and refreshers to then do the job they applied for plus reviews mid season in this case.
3. PDE ah huh.
Your right overall "time" is the problem here for as we know its voluntary unless your at the top BUT in that case I question again the lack of support from Club Admin and Feds.
Surely there are gapping holes after all the FFA researches past to present they can see Coaching is sub standard and in need of more support......
How hard is it to structure up more documents/videos etc to improve this important area of not only developing budding players but Coachs.
As you say, many Coachs go for playing games for eg, U13's vsing U14's etc, I had that back in my day a little But the Coach would stop play alot to instruct who should have done this or that ( game smarts as you say) and role reversal again. Are they doing that ?
Small sided games are great for one touch skill and movement but as you know playing full pitch is a whole new ball game.
4.yep I here you re Coachs going for brawn etc at those levels.
5. Re AL Clubs in PL.
Ours for eg this seasons results some snippets.
PL1 SFC finished 3rd last in 10th on the ladder.
PL2 looking at CC points ending WSW 3rd....CCM 5th.
YL U16's from ladder finish - SFC 2nd, WSW 8th, CCM 11th.
U13's from ladder finish - WSW 1st, SFC 6th, CCM 14th.
and I hear you talented Youth need a blooding at Snr level being around Experienced players and some that like all of us that age look up to them.
P/R is a given.
6. Look its not all doom and gloom I hear you, I suppose having been around a while by now I would have expected more Johnstons/Dukes etc - I'll forever be a PL/grass roots supporter but I also wanted to grasp AL in the hope we got ahead alot more than what I grew up with, we have commercially and yes kids are more skillful/synthetics to keep playing more but Lowy put us 1 huge step forward Snr level but 5steps back imo at Dev levels, no P/R and this closed league.

 




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@AJF Time is part of the problem. I'm taking a year off next year and don't know when I'll coach again at club level (I'm still coaching at my school). Working a full time job and then coaching 3/4 nights a week including the game means I have little time for family, friends and managing my life. Coaching properly is not just about turning up. I used to spend hours analysing games and using it with the players, scouting the opposition, contacting players, planning sessions with my assistant coach, etc. We need to think about what's really important and I've spent the last 12 months thinking about what to do. 

- Do I quit my job and work part time whilst coaching for peanuts which will impact on the quality of my life with no future prospects (coaching wise - there are very few full time jobs especially that pay the same as what I earn as a teacher)
- Do I take a risk and go to Europe and work part-time but there's a possible reward if I do well because there are more jobs
- Or do I give it up completely (I love coaching but I can no longer accept how much time it takes away from spending time with others).

TIME is a difficult problem that all coaches face and obviously it impacts on the quality of sessions that we deliver to the players.
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@LFC, 100% agree. Many of the guys in Vic NPL agree thatr if Viduka played now, he would be stuck in a NPL team and never given a real chance on the big stage locally (just look at how Nabout was treated)

@footballlover, I hear you, it is tough and luckily my wife (begrudgingly) accepts being a football widow, but there are many other good coaches I know that do it for a few years and then leave due to time and quite often parents!









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Just wanted to revisit this topic.
Unsure where to begin. My experience as a parent of a 15 year old has been nothing but frustration and disappointment.
My son is technically gifted but small for his age, overlooked at all the trials over the past few years until this year.
In my area there are just two NPL youth clubs to join. The first is a well known team (a-league) but a closed door for trialists. The second is almost impossible to get into as it's the only real opportunity, serving a large population. Basically, if you aren't already in the system for that team, then you are going to find it next to impossible to get in. That means kids in our area have to look at long distance travel for other NPL clubs. 
To cut a long story short, my son was invited to trial at an NPL club further afield. After two weeks, we were told by the TD of this club he trialled at that he was good enough to play in any NPL team. He was wanted. However before it progressed any further the TD told me the clubs board over-ruled his decision in order to take on two local boys-  at the expense of the merit system. Meanwhile, the football director simply lied to me about why he wasn't chosen. Look, I know that dodginess goes on in all clubs and workplaces, but it still doesn't make it right and left a very sour taste. 

All the NPL teams were trialling at the same time and he therefore missed out on all the other trials. However he was given a lifeline to trial at one more club: 1 position for a number of triallists. What I noticed is that many of the kids re-signed to play in both of these NPL teams we experienced actually aren't that good. They have managed to 'stay in the system' but not progressed as footballers. Meanwhile many of the the triallists are kids that have steadily progressed over the years and these are the ones knocking on the door for one spot when they are better than most of the kids already signed up. In other words, for kids that are steadily progressing, it's so hard to crack the system. 
I'm yet to hear back about whether my son will be awarded this 'lucrative' spot but one thing I do know is that as a parent, I cannot trust the system, late bloomers that are starting to hit their peak few opportunities to progress and if you want to make it, you better be prepared to travel. 
We need proper development academies here, not just second tier clubs looking to win comps. 
It's been one big struggle.  






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Neveraeurosnob - 10 Dec 2021 2:24 PM
Just wanted to revisit this topic.
Unsure where to begin. My experience as a parent of a 15 year old has been nothing but frustration and disappointment.
My son is technically gifted but small for his age, overlooked at all the trials over the past few years until this year.
In my area there are just two NPL youth clubs to join. The first is a well known team (a-league) but a closed door for trialists. The second is almost impossible to get into as it's the only real opportunity, serving a large population. Basically, if you aren't already in the system for that team, then you are going to find it next to impossible to get in. That means kids in our area have to look at long distance travel for other NPL clubs. 
To cut a long story short, my son was invited to trial at an NPL club further afield. After two weeks, we were told by the TD of this club he trialled at that he was good enough to play in any NPL team. He was wanted. However before it progressed any further the TD told me the clubs board over-ruled his decision in order to take on two local boys-  at the expense of the merit system. Meanwhile, the football director simply lied to me about why he wasn't chosen. Look, I know that dodginess goes on in all clubs and workplaces, but it still doesn't make it right and left a very sour taste. 

All the NPL teams were trialling at the same time and he therefore missed out on all the other trials. However he was given a lifeline to trial at one more club: 1 position for a number of triallists. What I noticed is that many of the kids re-signed to play in both of these NPL teams we experienced actually aren't that good. They have managed to 'stay in the system' but not progressed as footballers. Meanwhile many of the the triallists are kids that have steadily progressed over the years and these are the ones knocking on the door for one spot when they are better than most of the kids already signed up. In other words, for kids that are steadily progressing, it's so hard to crack the system. 
I'm yet to hear back about whether my son will be awarded this 'lucrative' spot but one thing I do know is that as a parent, I cannot trust the system, late bloomers that are starting to hit their peak few opportunities to progress and if you want to make it, you better be prepared to travel. 
We need proper development academies here, not just second tier clubs looking to win comps. 
It's been one big struggle.  






Same thing happens all over the country mate. It's not what you know (how good your are) it's who you know. Kid's who's granddad set up the club, on the committee, Dad's best mate with the coaches etc etc. In most cases it comes down to who's arse you're prepared to kiss. Everyone's biased I know, but my Son's pretty bloody good, but has always been overlooked due to his height (always the shortest in every team) and just couldn't crack into any NPL teams at youth level. 
Dropped down a couple of levels at u18s as a 16 yr old and ended up getting promoted to the Senior Team at a fairly big club in Brisbane, because the Head Coach was new to the club and didn't have past history to worry about (Club Politics). 
I dare say that's probably what happened with Valpato (club politics) - I'd love to see the kids that they did sign up instead of him!!!
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Neveraeurosnob - 10 Dec 2021 2:24 PM
Just wanted to revisit this topic.
Unsure where to begin. My experience as a parent of a 15 year old has been nothing but frustration and disappointment.
My son is technically gifted but small for his age, overlooked at all the trials over the past few years until this year.
In my area there are just two NPL youth clubs to join. The first is a well known team (a-league) but a closed door for trialists. The second is almost impossible to get into as it's the only real opportunity, serving a large population. Basically, if you aren't already in the system for that team, then you are going to find it next to impossible to get in. That means kids in our area have to look at long distance travel for other NPL clubs. 
To cut a long story short, my son was invited to trial at an NPL club further afield. After two weeks, we were told by the TD of this club he trialled at that he was good enough to play in any NPL team. He was wanted. However before it progressed any further the TD told me the clubs board over-ruled his decision in order to take on two local boys-  at the expense of the merit system. Meanwhile, the football director simply lied to me about why he wasn't chosen. Look, I know that dodginess goes on in all clubs and workplaces, but it still doesn't make it right and left a very sour taste. 

All the NPL teams were trialling at the same time and he therefore missed out on all the other trials. However he was given a lifeline to trial at one more club: 1 position for a number of triallists. What I noticed is that many of the kids re-signed to play in both of these NPL teams we experienced actually aren't that good. They have managed to 'stay in the system' but not progressed as footballers. Meanwhile many of the the triallists are kids that have steadily progressed over the years and these are the ones knocking on the door for one spot when they are better than most of the kids already signed up. In other words, for kids that are steadily progressing, it's so hard to crack the system. 
I'm yet to hear back about whether my son will be awarded this 'lucrative' spot but one thing I do know is that as a parent, I cannot trust the system, late bloomers that are starting to hit their peak few opportunities to progress and if you want to make it, you better be prepared to travel. 
We need proper development academies here, not just second tier clubs looking to win comps. 
It's been one big struggle.  






Good day, Neveraeurosnob.

From reading this, I'm surmising you  reside in Sydney or Melbourne?

Sorry to hear you've  experienced  this 'closed shop mentality.'

I've been a TD of an NPL club in a smaller state, where opportunities for keen youth to enter NPL programs  are easier to come by. We want as many as possible players in  NPL and A L  development programs, because of the high attrition rate by adolescents. 

Unfortunately, by having low  numbers of kids in programs, means one can waste time with kids who drop out. The more kids experiencing quality coaching, the better IMO. I've never had to overlook committed kids for NPL development programs, but only for underage  rep teams that are feeders for underage state teams.

I love  to help, but I'm not sure I can proffer any useful advice for your scenario/predicament.


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Yeah I had a similar experience at his age.
The club decided there would only be one team er age group from u/16s so cut about 15 kids.

Outside the best 5 or so players you'd be hard pressed to pick from the rest.

Needless to say the other ones that were picked had dads on the committee or who stood around drinking beer with the other dads talking about who was going to concrete whose driveway in return for tiling their bathroom etc

I scored the most goals of any wide player the season before, scored in several trial games and got cut. Big 6 foot+ dummies who couldn't trap a ball got picked. They also forgot to call me to tell me that I was cut so I rocked up on Tuesday night beaming thinking I'd made the team only to be asked in front of everyone "how come you are here tonight?".

I quit playing for 3 years then went to play Sunday league.

Not saying I was good enough to play at a top level but I sure as hell could play the ball better than half the kids that got picked I know that deep in my core.
Edited
4 Years Ago by Davide82
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Neveraeurosnob, well picked lol.....
There will be some here that will view this thread mine as another oh no here we go again.....regards to our current football climate re AL/now APL NPL battles but look where we are "STILL" in the big picture re our Development.
Glancing above I posted comments 2yrs ago and probably further back and I see others that reported similar feelings across the board.
Isn't it a shame your opening comment "My experience as a parent of a 15 year old has been nothing but frustration and disappointment." is still the same as I experienced with my own son 5/7yrs ago.......
It was a continous battle how the NPL Clubs function as you explained but we finally broke through to PL3 then U20's to PL2 first Snr years to sadly suffer a ACL tear beginning of last season covid debacled year.
He's ready to go again BUT to get back in is an absolute struggle but ce la vie.

As for your case at their most important years I feel for you.
The total lack of choices and travel distances are most challenging and the only way is to persist persist persist if he really wants to keep at it despite the many barriers presented by so many untruths by Clubs/TD's etc and importantly you accepting to be a Uber for him.
Looks like nothing has changed and all you can do is keep trying to break the door down to get in.

I disagree needing development academies per say, they are leechs taking anyones money, what we need is the above, FA with the FNSW/Vics/Qld etc work together to agree on a same same system on selection/coaching and open Trials up alot more, variable times not all the same time, reduce costs so as give as many possible up and comers a chance to show themselves.
Not just 1 trial under the absolute pump, some first timers can't even get a kick in amongst regulars who never pass the ball to newbies etcetc........
Its a melting pot mosh pit and lets not bring in the amount of favoured ordinary players who's Daddy puts in money to the Club.

LOL above all that mate, don't give up yet, your position is not unique about that lucrative one spot left, heard it all before, IF your boy is good enough sooner or later you'll break through, might have to accept travelling far but it is what it is here.


Love Football

Edited
4 Years Ago by LFC.
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It will be interesting to see how a proper domestic transfer/loans system will impact situations like the one described by @Neveraeurosnob (and many others). Once there is a clear financial incentive for clubs (at all levels) to have high performing players, I'm sure TDs/Boards will consider recruitments differently.
Speaking of the domestic transfer/loans system. Where is it? Surely it's not that difficult. It's not like setting up a 2nd div with P&R in which there are many different potential approaches. Transfers/loans are pretty straight forward. The global football economy is built on transfers & loans. 
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I think its quite similar to other industries like video games, 10-15 years ago everyone did it because they loved games now the industry is filled with people who love money not games.

I think its similar here, they aren't coaching these squads to develop the next socceroo, they just want to fatten their wallet.

Hearing David's story made me angry, no wonder so many kids just leave the game - the way they are treated is terrible.
Edited
4 Years Ago by jas88
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Hi Neveraeurosnob and all...

I'm wondering could you spell out what a " proper development academy " is?

Currently the pathways have so many different "streams / paths/ academies" these kind of environments start to be meaningless..  

A league academies
NPL club academies
Private Academies (external to club football)
NTC
NDC / TIDC 
SAP 
Community / Social football
School programs

Biases are in the game and every walk of life/ industry, as unfortunate as that may be. Some people are looking to play by merit and some are being promoted by as many have mentioned "who you know, not what you know" 

Is the issue that there is failure at the elite level? or that as unfortunate as it is some people are missing out due to biases and club politics and local level?

I apologise if I have missed the point of your post :-) 
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Medellin - 11 Dec 2021 4:25 PM

Hi Neveraeurosnob and all...

I'm wondering could you spell out what a " proper development academy " is?

Currently the pathways have so many different "streams / paths/ academies" these kind of environments start to be meaningless..  

A league academies
NPL club academies
Private Academies (external to club football)
NTC
NDC / TIDC 
SAP 
Community / Social football
School programs

Biases are in the game and every walk of life/ industry, as unfortunate as that may be. Some people are looking to play by merit and some are being promoted by as many have mentioned "who you know, not what you know" 

Is the issue that there is failure at the elite level? or that as unfortunate as it is some people are missing out due to biases and club politics and local level?

I apologise if I have missed the point of your post :-) 

I must admit I'm a bit out of the loop these days, but I thought NTC programs had been disbanded?

I have coached the local NTCs for some sessions in the past , but in about 2013, FFA, now Football Australia, were moving towards a club based model. This was when I was last coaching. 
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Decentric 2 - 14 Dec 2021 12:04 AM
Medellin - 11 Dec 2021 4:25 PM

I must admit I'm a bit out of the loop these days, but I thought NTC programs had been disbanded?

I have coached the local NTCs for some sessions in the past , but in about 2013, FFA, now Football Australia, were moving towards a club based model. This was when I was last coaching. 

NTC still exists in South Australia
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Medellin - 11 Dec 2021 4:25 PM

Hi Neveraeurosnob and all...

I'm wondering could you spell out what a " proper development academy " is?

Currently the pathways have so many different "streams / paths/ academies" these kind of environments start to be meaningless..  

A league academies
NPL club academies
Private Academies (external to club football)
NTC
NDC / TIDC 
SAP 
Community / Social football
School programs

Biases are in the game and every walk of life/ industry, as unfortunate as that may be. Some people are looking to play by merit and some are being promoted by as many have mentioned "who you know, not what you know" 

Is the issue that there is failure at the elite level? or that as unfortunate as it is some people are missing out due to biases and club politics and local level?

I apologise if I have missed the point of your post :-) 

What I meant by a proper development academy is what my son's Euro coach talks about what happens in Europe: A club that takes on youth with the specific goal in mind of developing them  as a player, as an 'investment' not just for the sole purpose of winning the comp. From my experience here, all I see is these NPL clubs picking players with the sole intention of winning the comp, little care for 'potential', with little if no interest at all in the welfare and development of the player. I guess that might be a harsh judgement and I am sure it's not all like that, but that's what we have experienced. 
I think it's fair to say SAP allows for this, but beyond that, after 13, it's a different story. 
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Neveraeurosnob - 16 Dec 2021 9:20 AM
Medellin - 11 Dec 2021 4:25 PM

What I meant by a proper development academy is what my son's Euro coach talks about what happens in Europe: A club that takes on youth with the specific goal in mind of developing them  as a player, as an 'investment' not just for the sole purpose of winning the comp. From my experience here, all I see is these NPL clubs picking players with the sole intention of winning the comp, little care for 'potential', with little if no interest at all in the welfare and development of the player. I guess that might be a harsh judgement and I am sure it's not all like that, but that's what we have experienced. 
I think it's fair to say SAP allows for this, but beyond that, after 13, it's a different story. 

We won't have a "proper" or better Academy system until as a Transfer System, with Player Compensation and Solidarity Payments is put in place.
In Europe this is the centre of Eveything, is the search for TALENT. Where ever that TALENT is.
Its part of the Economic Model within the Global Football Model.
We've just copied Australian Provincial Sports Models.

There is no incentive to develop players.



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jas88 - 10 Dec 2021 8:25 PM
I think its quite similar to other industries like video games, 10-15 years ago everyone did it because they loved games now the industry is filled with people who love money not games.

Quite off topic I admit, but why on earth would you get into video games for money? You'll get paid twice as much for half the work in a real business, and will have time left over to actually enjoy some games.

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tomw - 17 Dec 2021 8:22 AM
jas88 - 10 Dec 2021 8:25 PM

Quite off topic I admit, but why on earth would you get into video games for money? You'll get paid twice as much for half the work in a real business, and will have time left over to actually enjoy some games.

its bigger than the music and film industries combined...that's why... biggest industry on the planet... you must be over 40/50 I presume?

I know a guy who made a mobile chess game retired at 26.
Edited
4 Years Ago by jas88
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jas88 - 17 Dec 2021 1:28 PM
tomw - 17 Dec 2021 8:22 AM

its bigger than the music and film industries combined...that's why... biggest industry on the planet... you must be over 40/50 I presume?

I know a guy who made a mobile chess game retired at 26.

(I'm over 50 and I know this.)

Yes and the stupid short sighted government does nothing to try and help the industry in Australia. Meanwhile they're shelling out grants and incentives to movies and TV.

Another example of old people not seeing the future in front of them.





Member since 2008.


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jas88 - 17 Dec 2021 1:28 PM
tomw - 17 Dec 2021 8:22 AM

its bigger than the music and film industries combined...that's why... biggest industry on the planet... you must be over 40/50 I presume?

I know a guy who made a mobile chess game retired at 26.

Sure, but that money doesn't go to the developers (who I assume you are referring to above). They get eaten up and shat out by the development companies, who in turn are eaten up and shat out by the big publishers. This has been the case for decades, and is only getting worse. Which is why I decided against it.

Edited
4 Years Ago by tomw
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“Every disadvantage has its advantage.” Johan Cruyff
First things first.
JNPL is not the be all and end all. The percentage of JNPL boys that end up playing Senior Football at AL or NPL (Division One level) is minimal, less than 1% nationally of boys who finish U20 (or similar level) year on year.
So the key point for any kid is not where you are at 15, but where you will be at 21.
Most think that’s achieved by being in the NPL system whether with an NPL Academy or an AL Academy.
The vast majority of parents, like yourself and myself too, don’t have the knowledge of how it all works and find out when its all too late.
On Clubs selecting locals or committee member kids or Sponsors kids, my view has changed from seeing it as wrong, to understanding it’s a necessity for a Club’s survival in the Australian Football Ecosystem. Its just a fact.
Second thing, what to do now?
If the lad isn’t in the JNPL system the question is what to do now, for some they just give up. For the tenacious ones its not over.
In fact if I had my time over, knowing what I know now, I wouldn’t have even worried about JNPL for my boys, or daughter. It was costing me $6,600 in fees alone, with add ons like travel, equipment and private coaching it was double.
My kids have trained at and played against, Liverpool FC, SALT FC (LFC community arm), Heart of Midlothian, Rennes, Nantes, Spartan FC, Dundee United, St Johnstone, Motherwell, Panionios, Atromitos, AC Brest, PEC Zwolle, Emmen FC and a few I’ve forgotten.
What I learnt was our kids aren’t far off the pace, in every case the improvement over close to two weeks there was exponential for every player. When they came back to Australia they mostly dropped off.
My oldest had trials at St Johnstone while on tour, and played professionally in the Cypriot 3rd Division for a short time.
So point one, we don’t train enough, we don’t have good enough training.
Point two, to understand the “true” level travelling to Europe for the aspiring player is an absolute must. The longer the better, 4-6 weeks a year would be best.
Point three, playing in Community is okay. In fact if your kid is better than his teammates at this level and his opponents he will have the “freedom” to express himself, experiment without fear. And most likely the coach will let him do what he wants as he will see him as a his key match winner. So he will be played in key positions with plenty of game time.
Point four, Futsal, Futsal, and more Futsal. All modern training/coaching is based on “Game Training”, “Passing Games”, and tactical awareness within training games. You get all that in Futsal and more.
Point five, private coaching sessions. Once a week on repetition of skills (Coerver or similar) is enough. At PEC Zwolle all their youth teams do this once a week with a specialised coach. A no brainer.
Point Six, Fitness and Conditioning. We aren’t as Football Fit as we think, nutrition and a good personal trainer with strong knowledge of the game is imperative to reach the European Level. From 13-16 once a week is enough. Transitioning from youth 17-21 two to three times a week is a must.
Point Seven, self practice. A bag of balls, handful of cones, and off to the park, with a mate or two if possible, and just have fun and experiment.
Finally about having “Proper Development Academies” here, isn’t going to happen for a generation if at all. Our Football Culture is weak. Our focus is on the Elite at the top end, when it should be the other way around.
Could write more but this is my experience, these points are the bare essentials.

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Arthur - 14 Dec 2021 12:39 PM
“Every disadvantage has its advantage.” Johan Cruyff
First things first.
JNPL is not the be all and end all. The percentage of JNPL boys that end up playing Senior Football at AL or NPL (Division One level) is minimal, less than 1% nationally of boys who finish U20 (or similar level) year on year.
So the key point for any kid is not where you are at 15, but where you will be at 21.
Most think that’s achieved by being in the NPL system whether with an NPL Academy or an AL Academy.
The vast majority of parents, like yourself and myself too, don’t have the knowledge of how it all works and find out when its all too late.
On Clubs selecting locals or committee member kids or Sponsors kids, my view has changed from seeing it as wrong, to understanding it’s a necessity for a Club’s survival in the Australian Football Ecosystem. Its just a fact.
Second thing, what to do now?
If the lad isn’t in the JNPL system the question is what to do now, for some they just give up. For the tenacious ones its not over.
In fact if I had my time over, knowing what I know now, I wouldn’t have even worried about JNPL for my boys, or daughter. It was costing me $6,600 in fees alone, with add ons like travel, equipment and private coaching it was double.
My kids have trained at and played against, Liverpool FC, SALT FC (LFC community arm), Heart of Midlothian, Rennes, Nantes, Spartan FC, Dundee United, St Johnstone, Motherwell, Panionios, Atromitos, AC Brest, PEC Zwolle, Emmen FC and a few I’ve forgotten.
What I learnt was our kids aren’t far off the pace, in every case the improvement over close to two weeks there was exponential for every player. When they came back to Australia they mostly dropped off.
My oldest had trials at St Johnstone while on tour, and played professionally in the Cypriot 3rd Division for a short time.
So point one, we don’t train enough, we don’t have good enough training.
Point two, to understand the “true” level travelling to Europe for the aspiring player is an absolute must. The longer the better, 4-6 weeks a year would be best.
Point three, playing in Community is okay. In fact if your kid is better than his teammates at this level and his opponents he will have the “freedom” to express himself, experiment without fear. And most likely the coach will let him do what he wants as he will see him as a his key match winner. So he will be played in key positions with plenty of game time.
Point four, Futsal, Futsal, and more Futsal. All modern training/coaching is based on “Game Training”, “Passing Games”, and tactical awareness within training games. You get all that in Futsal and more.
Point five, private coaching sessions. Once a week on repetition of skills (Coerver or similar) is enough. At PEC Zwolle all their youth teams do this once a week with a specialised coach. A no brainer.
Point Six, Fitness and Conditioning. We aren’t as Football Fit as we think, nutrition and a good personal trainer with strong knowledge of the game is imperative to reach the European Level. From 13-16 once a week is enough. Transitioning from youth 17-21 two to three times a week is a must.
Point Seven, self practice. A bag of balls, handful of cones, and off to the park, with a mate or two if possible, and just have fun and experiment.
Finally about having “Proper Development Academies” here, isn’t going to happen for a generation if at all. Our Football Culture is weak. Our focus is on the Elite at the top end, when it should be the other way around.
Could write more but this is my experience, these points are the bare essentials.

Hi Arthur, thanks for all these tips and especially insight. Much appreciated.
It's good to know my son is on the right path. He does all of these things. He has two private coaches: an ex-Austrian pro footballer who specialises in technical skills and an ex-EPL/ + lower leagues pro (Australian) who provides game skills. His fitness is outstanding for his age, but aware of maintenance and growth. He also has a European passport and is a bit rusty in the language but learns it at school. I guess that is an advantage for when the time come. Going over to Europe (bar COVID issues) is not an issue for us. Your comments puts into perspective development when you feel as if you are getting nowhere. 
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As Arthur days above

Also don't expect a linear pathway, deal with the 'setbacks' positively


Europe is funding the war not Chelsea football club

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Thanks for everyone for their insights and supportive comments! Appreciated. 
To cover some of the other questions and comments:
We live on the Central Coast. We have the Mariners and Central Coast United (CCU) as rep teams. Both  play NPL in football NSW (Sydney). Now these teams cover a population of 400K. Mariners are well known for picking Sydney and Newcastle youth players and almost impossible to infiltrate. They are good though and if you look at NPL positioning they tend to either win the comp or go close to winning most age groups. Not always the case but generally very good.  CCU pick the rest based on who they think are the best and of course 'who you know'.  Clearly by the way they perform, they aren't picking the best. 
This leaves a massive gap. There are a large number of very good youth that either can't or don't know how to develop further from a playing perspective as they have nowhere to go (or feels like that). We have been sold this idea that you 'need to be in the system'.  Many go to Newcastle and play there, but so many parents just can't drive that distance four times a week. The issue for the Central Coast, is that we are caught in no-mans land, between football NSW and football Northern NSW. I have never seen such a ridiculous system. Yet this area here is a breeding ground for quality players. It's a sporty area with sporty kids. There are huge numbers of community players and some players have managed to find their way to pro football, however so many more have that potential but are lost because they don't know what to do. I grew up in Sydney and thought it was a solid football city but the central coast - per population is amazing for football passion. Yet what do the kids here do beyond community football?
After trialling at 3 NPL clubs in Newcastle, my son said  his local community A grade club on the Central Coast would easily beat all 3 NPL clubs in Newcastle. To me, that's a problem. These are kids rejected by the Mariners and CCU and feel as if they have nowhere to go beyond community football. At that point they and their parents start to lose interest; it feels like barrier after barrier. After reading all of your comments I think we will just keep developing with his coaches (they are quality) and if you are good enough, it will come. Today I will find out if he has made the Newcastle NPL team (1 spot for 3 remaining triallists). 
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Neveraeurosnob - 16 Dec 2021 9:46 AM
Thanks for everyone for their insights and supportive comments! Appreciated. 
To cover some of the other questions and comments:
We live on the Central Coast. We have the Mariners and Central Coast United (CCU) as rep teams. Both  play NPL in football NSW (Sydney). Now these teams cover a population of 400K. Mariners are well known for picking Sydney and Newcastle youth players and almost impossible to infiltrate. They are good though and if you look at NPL positioning they tend to either win the comp or go close to winning most age groups. Not always the case but generally very good.  CCU pick the rest based on who they think are the best and of course 'who you know'.  Clearly by the way they perform, they aren't picking the best. 
This leaves a massive gap. There are a large number of very good youth that either can't or don't know how to develop further from a playing perspective as they have nowhere to go (or feels like that). We have been sold this idea that you 'need to be in the system'.  Many go to Newcastle and play there, but so many parents just can't drive that distance four times a week. The issue for the Central Coast, is that we are caught in no-mans land, between football NSW and football Northern NSW. I have never seen such a ridiculous system. Yet this area here is a breeding ground for quality players. It's a sporty area with sporty kids. There are huge numbers of community players and some players have managed to find their way to pro football, however so many more have that potential but are lost because they don't know what to do. I grew up in Sydney and thought it was a solid football city but the central coast - per population is amazing for football passion. Yet what do the kids here do beyond community football?


Feel your pain about travel and being in a 'no man's land'. There's some real talent up here in the mid north coast but at 5 hours each way to play in the NPL comp in Newcastle many give playing in the NPL away. (And the NPL sides from here have won the comp many times in the past.)

As for adult football for example, Coffs United was one game away from making the final 32 of the FFA cup only losing 1 nil to a Newcastle Olympic. And these blokes here are all rank amateurs. Not sure about Newcastle Olympic. Maybe Mono can tell me if they're paid and what they're actually level is.


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Munrubenmuz - 17 Dec 2021 8:27 AM
Neveraeurosnob - 16 Dec 2021 9:46 AM

Feel your pain about travel and being in a 'no man's land'. There's some real talent up here in the mid north coast but at 5 hours each way to play in the NPL comp in Newcastle many give playing in the NPL away. (And the NPL sides from here have won the comp many times in the past.)

As for adult football for example, Coffs United was one game away from making the final 32 of the FFA cup only losing 1 nil to a Newcastle Olympic. And these blokes here are all rank amateurs. Not sure about Newcastle Olympic. Maybe Mono can tell me if they're paid and what they're actually level is.

Sorry Muz, I know next to nothing about Newcastle Olympic.
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Can't edit the above so will repost here.

Having said that I don't know what the answer is to NPL zones. We're almost far enough North that it would make sense to play at the Gold coast. I think Lismore do that. Anything they try and work out has problems.




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Youth development will rise though a key difficult but crucial change needed along with Domestic Transfer System (Development Focus):
 - Increase and align the calendar for whole game (from Aleagues to grassroots) to be 36+ games, 9.5/10 months - Jan/Feb - Oct/Nov. Pro/rel throughout with 2nd div. Football must use its power through far superior participation numbers than any other code to push for this as this is necessary for our players to compete internationally and raise standards. All of the top countries are playing way more games than us with more teams and this is impacting our development. This will also increase and improve our fan culture/engagement as long offseasons can impact peoples love, development and continued support of the game in Aus.
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Munrubenmuz - 17 Dec 2021 8:32 AM
Can't edit the above so will repost here.

Having said that I don't know what the answer is to NPL zones. We're almost far enough North that it would make sense to play at the Gold coast. I think Lismore do that. Anything they try and work out has problems.


Couldn't places like Coffs Harbour, Port Macquarie, Tamworth et al. have rep teams playing in the NNSW NPL? Then players would only have to trek down to Newcastle for away games, and I imagine the first grade teams would even gather some fan support if they're playing at a high level and uniting the community behind them. Given that there's something like 800k people in NNSW outside the Hunter Valley, it seems like a massive missed opportunity for player development. 
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df1982 - 17 Dec 2021 12:22 PM
Munrubenmuz - 17 Dec 2021 8:32 AM

Couldn't places like Coffs Harbour, Port Macquarie, Tamworth et al. have rep teams playing in the NNSW NPL? Then players would only have to trek down to Newcastle for away games, and I imagine the first grade teams would even gather some fan support if they're playing at a high level and uniting the community behind them. Given that there's something like 800k people in NNSW outside the Hunter Valley, it seems like a massive missed opportunity for player development. 

They do. https://northernnswfootball.com.au/competitions/npl/

Scroll down to youth. There's Port (Mid coast) and Coffs (North Coast).

10 out of 12 games are in Newcastle x 2.

Regional football is always going to have issues. To be fair at least the opportunities exist. They actually had to fight to get in is what I heard because the Newcastle teams didn't fancy a 5 hour bus trip each way. Meanwhile the poor buggers here are leaving at 6.00am on a Saturday (4 teams on the bus) and coming back at 10.30pm at night. (No parents allowed on the bus. That's not a complaint, just an observation.)


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4 Years Ago by Munrubenmuz
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Munrubenmuz - 17 Dec 2021 2:22 PM
df1982 - 17 Dec 2021 12:22 PM

They do. https://northernnswfootball.com.au/competitions/npl/

Scroll down to youth. There's Port (Mid coast) and Coffs (North Coast).

10 out of 12 games are in Newcastle x 2.

Regional football is always going to have issues. To be fair at least the opportunities exist. They actually had to fight to get in is what I heard because the Newcastle teams didn't fancy a 5 hour bus trip each way. Meanwhile the poor buggers here are leaving at 6.00am on a Saturday (4 teams on the bus) and coming back at 10.30pm at night. (No parents allowed on the bus. That's not a complaint, just an observation.)

So they do for youth team football but not at senior level? That seems to be getting things the wrong way around. 
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df1982 - 17 Dec 2021 4:13 PM
Munrubenmuz - 17 Dec 2021 2:22 PM

So they do for youth team football but not at senior level? That seems to be getting things the wrong way around. 

Yes it's hard on regional areas and travel will be required if you want to play NPL. Mid north coast seem to do pretty well in NPL though so coaches are doing something right there. 
However the issue for Central Coast is that it is basically 'northern Sydney". Huge population, and yet only 2 rep teams and nowhere else for incredibly talented youth to play. As a country, we are missing out on the development of youth in an area where football is exceptionally strong. I would go as far to say that football is the number one sport here (overtaken taken Rugby league some years ago) and may be one of the few places in Australia where football is the no1 sport. 
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Neveraeurosnob - 17 Dec 2021 7:03 PM
df1982 - 17 Dec 2021 4:13 PM

Yes it's hard on regional areas and travel will be required if you want to play NPL. Mid north coast seem to do pretty well in NPL though so coaches are doing something right there. 
However the issue for Central Coast is that it is basically 'northern Sydney". Huge population, and yet only 2 rep teams and nowhere else for incredibly talented youth to play. As a country, we are missing out on the development of youth in an area where football is exceptionally strong. I would go as far to say that football is the number one sport here (overtaken taken Rugby league some years ago) and may be one of the few places in Australia where football is the no1 sport. 

Hey mate, great to hear your journey and good luck with your lad  hope it works out. I know absolutely nothing about the central coast but do the state league clubs up there not have the opportunity to be promoted up to NPL?  If its the  umber one sport surely there are a club or two that can rise up the table?
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Monoethnic Social Club - 17 Dec 2021 9:29 PM
Neveraeurosnob - 17 Dec 2021 7:03 PM

Hey mate, great to hear your journey and good luck with your lad  hope it works out. I know absolutely nothing about the central coast but do the state league clubs up there not have the opportunity to be promoted up to NPL?  If its the  umber one sport surely there are a club or two that can rise up the table?

Cheers mate. Unfortunately no, there is no opportunity. 
Central Coast Football is a member of football NSW but only 2 NPL teams and there is no 'state league' here or teams playing in a state league.
There is a 'state league' in 'football northern NSW' and I know quite a few central coasties play in that league in Newcastle teams, but again draining players away from this region. 
Sure there are other ways of getting ahead: Trent Behagiar is a prodigy of the international football school we have on the central coast, while as I understand it Lachie Wales scored a spot at the Mariners academy from playing at his local community club, Terrigal.
The way I see it as a bit of a novice (i.e. just  a football loving parent) is Football nsw and central coast football have not been able to keep pace with the growth of football and the growth of the population in this region. Ultimately it means all of us (I mean all Australians who want to see football prosper) are missing out on seeing this football breeding ground developing to its full potential.



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4 Years Ago by Neveraeurosnob
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Neveraeurosnob - 18 Dec 2021 7:48 AM
Monoethnic Social Club - 17 Dec 2021 9:29 PM

Cheers mate. Unfortunately no, there is no opportunity. 
Central Coast Football is a member of football NSW but only 2 NPL teams and there is no 'state league' here or teams playing in a state league.
There is a 'state league' in 'football northern NSW' and I know quite a few central coasties play in that league in Newcastle teams, but again draining players away from this region. 
Sure there are other ways of getting ahead: Trent Behagiar is a prodigy of the international football school we have on the central coast, while as I understand it Lachie Wales scored a spot at the Mariners academy from playing at his local community club, Terrigal.
The way I see it as a bit of a novice (i.e. just  a football loving parent) is Football nsw and central coast football have not been able to keep pace with the growth of football and the growth of the population in this region. Ultimately it means all of us (I mean all Australians who want to see football prosper) are missing out on seeing this football breeding ground developing to its full potential.



I think you will find that State League is now Football NSW League Three Mens. 

Lachlie Wales (Terrigal) came through the Mariners Academy as did Trent (Umina). Ollie originally came from Avoca Beach before the Academy (his father Vic - a former Socceroo ran his own Academy), Matty Simon played for East Gosford and I think also played for Central Coast Lightning ( a forerunner of CCU). Of the current young guys  in the squad that came through the Academy Jacob Farrell, Harrison Steele and Matt Hatch are all local.

The Mariners cast their net far and wide with recent players coming from Vic, Tas, ACT, SA and Qld as well as rural NSW, Sydney (especially Western Sydney) and Newcastle ,  - not just the Coast. That is unlikely to change.

What really needs to change is another rep side under the Football NSW umbrella with a full academy to complement CCU. I would like to see something around Doyalson or Budegwoi that caters for the northern part of the Coast better (Central Coast Lakers?). As you said a number of Coasties player in the NNSW area - but I find that that Federation is well below that of Football NSW. e.g. Jets Academy have chosen to play in Football NSW League Three Mens. rather than Football NNSW
 
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4 Years Ago by patjennings
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patjennings - 18 Dec 2021 12:50 PM
Neveraeurosnob - 18 Dec 2021 7:48 AM

I think you will find that State League is now Football NSW League Three Mens. 

Lachlie Wales (Terrigal) came through the Mariners Academy as did Trent (Umina). Ollie originally came from Avoca Beach before the Academy (his father Vic - a former Socceroo ran his own Academy), Matty Simon played for East Gosford and I think also played for Central Coast Lightning ( a forerunner of CCU). Of the current young guys  in the squad that came through the Academy Jacob Farrell, Harrison Steele and Matt Hatch are all local.

The Mariners cast their net far and wide with recent players coming from Vic, Tas, ACT, SA and Qld as well as rural NSW, Sydney (especially Western Sydney) and Newcastle ,  - not just the Coast. That is unlikely to change.

What really needs to change is another rep side under the Football NSW umbrella with a full academy to complement CCU. I would like to see something around Doyalson or Budegwoi that caters for the northern part of the Coast better (Central Coast Lakers?). As you said a number of Coasties player in the NNSW area - but I find that that Federation is well below that of Football NSW. e.g. Jets Academy have chosen to play in Football NSW League Three Mens. rather than Football NNSW.
 

Well elucidated. Couldn't have put it better myself :)
I really agree with everything you've noted and you obviously have intricate knowledge of the Central Coast: Yes, another academy team in Central Coast is sorely needed. I thought Trent B was at the football school and didn't really go through the academy system per se?
However I might slightly disagree in that from what I've seen the top teams of the NNSW youth could match it with many of the football NSW teams. I believe the Jets academy experiment to play in football NSW NPL 2 was the wrong move. Sure, they seem to be winning or close to winning the various ages but when I was at the trials the feedback I received was parents of these kids just couldn't hack the travel of playing in Sydney every second week. I think in all likelihood they will revert back to NNSW. I think that would help that federation ultimately. 




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Neveraeurosnob - 19 Dec 2021 7:33 AM
patjennings - 18 Dec 2021 12:50 PM

Well elucidated. Couldn't have put it better myself :)
I really agree with everything you've noted and you obviously have intricate knowledge of the Central Coast: Yes, another academy team in Central Coast is sorely needed. I thought Trent B was at the football school and didn't really go through the academy system per se?
However I might slightly disagree in that from what I've seen the top teams of the NNSW youth could match it with many of the football NSW teams. I believe the Jets academy experiment to play in football NSW NPL 2 was the wrong move. Sure, they seem to be winning or close to winning the various ages but when I was at the trials the feedback I received was parents of these kids just couldn't hack the travel of playing in Sydney every second week. I think in all likelihood they will revert back to NNSW. I think that would help that federation ultimately. 


Can't hack the travel to Sydney? Tell that to the 13 to 17 year olds travelling 5 hours each way to play in the NPL Newcastle from Coffs. Some of the kids were coming from Yamba and Maclean (1 and half hours north) to get on the bus in Coffs at 6am and then travel down.

I realise you're not saying the travel is too much just pointing out what you've heard.

Harden up young fellas.




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Munrubenmuz - 20 Dec 2021 10:45 AM
Neveraeurosnob - 19 Dec 2021 7:33 AM

Can't hack the travel to Sydney? Tell that to the 13 to 17 year olds travelling 5 hours each way to play in the NPL Newcastle from Coffs. Some of the kids were coming from Yamba and Maclean (1 and half hours north) to get on the bus in Coffs at 6am and then travel down.

I realise you're not saying the travel is too much just pointing out what you've heard.

Harden up young fellas.


Sorry I think I meant to say it's the parents issue not a prob for the kids!
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Great thread and thank you for clarifying your posts Neveraeurosnob.. 
Often while reading threads the real issues can be missed. It looks as though the main issue is the lack of a transfer system, which will create a market place and the demand for better development academies/ environments.

The questions this brings to mind are
-  If A higher division club (most likely A league club or NPL ) paid money for a player they take from a lower division (community or NPL) would this start a market place? 
- Is the transfer of Money for an athlete ( youth or any footballer) illegal in Australia? 

A bit of a stretch but does the Australian football market (a club/s) need to take a leaf out of the Crypto market, start with buying 1 player and work out the legalisation and any of the required control mechanisms later to ensure no malpractice. 

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salary cap makes big transfer fees impossible thus it isnt really worth developing talent to sell if you cant make a profit 

thus the salary cap does more to hurt the viability of the league then help it. 

this isnt afl players have choices to ply there trade else where 

these Kangaroos can play football - 
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KEEP POLITICS OUT OF FOOTBALL

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The next step for FNSW to take, having done the right thing in compressing the existing NPL clubs into 3 levels each with 16 clubs to give players more games, is to start an NPL 4 division with another 16 clubs.  NPL 4 and 3 could have less requirements to reduce the costs of participating for those clubs.

There is difficulty in a state the size of NSW to provide equal opportunity for regional players.  There are 45k registered players spread across the FNSW regions, 15k on the Central Coast, 15k in the Illawarra and the remainder spread across 15 Regional Associations of 500 to 3k in size.  With 190k spread across the 15 District Associations in Greater Sydney it is obvious that the large majority of clubs on the competitive pathway will be located there.
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Gyfox - 19 Dec 2021 10:55 AM
The next step for FNSW to take, having done the right thing in compressing the existing NPL clubs into 3 levels each with 16 clubs to give players more games, is to start an NPL 4 division with another 16 clubs.  NPL 4 and 3 could have less requirements to reduce the costs of participating for those clubs.

There is difficulty in a state the size of NSW to provide equal opportunity for regional players.  There are 45k registered players spread across the FNSW regions, 15k on the Central Coast, 15k in the Illawarra and the remainder spread across 15 Regional Associations of 500 to 3k in size.  With 190k spread across the 15 District Associations in Greater Sydney it is obvious that the large majority of clubs on the competitive pathway will be located there.

Do you we have number of participants for each association? We could then work out if certain associations are under represented in Football NSW competitions.
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theFOOTBALLlover - 19 Dec 2021 1:07 PM
Gyfox - 19 Dec 2021 10:55 AM

Do you we have number of participants for each association? We could then work out if certain associations are under represented in Football NSW competitions.

The 2019 Yearbook is the last FNSW source without being affected by Covid.  There is a table on Page 81.

https://footballnsw.com.au/about/annual-reports-and-yearbooks/

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Gyfox - 19 Dec 2021 7:45 PM
theFOOTBALLlover - 19 Dec 2021 1:07 PM

The 2019 Yearbook is the last FNSW source without being affected by Covid.  There is a table on Page 81.

https://footballnsw.com.au/about/annual-reports-and-yearbooks/

So Central Coast is one of the largest associations, with 14.5K players. From what I can tell, the entire northern NSW football federation only has about 33K registrants and some of these would be central coast players but registered in northern NSW. 
https://www.soccerscene.com.au/northern-nsw-football-record-strong-player-registration-numbers-for-2021-season/
It would be good to hear other voices, but I'm really not sure we have the development system right in NSW to cater for where the players are, but acknowledge the constraints outlined.
I think one short sighted issue has been not taking into account population projections. In the 1970's there were only about 70K on the central coast. It's risen roughly 6x fold since then. 




Edited
4 Years Ago by Neveraeurosnob
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Gyfox - 19 Dec 2021 7:45 PM
theFOOTBALLlover - 19 Dec 2021 1:07 PM

The 2019 Yearbook is the last FNSW source without being affected by Covid.  There is a table on Page 81.

https://footballnsw.com.au/about/annual-reports-and-yearbooks/

Thanks for the link. Where's Football Mid North and Far North coast in that? 

In fact where's Ballina, Byron, Maclean etc? (Or have I missed something?)







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Edited
4 Years Ago by Munrubenmuz
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Munrubenmuz - 20 Dec 2021 10:50 AM
Gyfox - 19 Dec 2021 7:45 PM

Thanks for the link. Where's Football Mid North and Far North coast in that? 

In fact where's Ballina, Byron, Maclean etc? (Or have I missed something?)





That's football NSW annual report. Those areas you mention are part of northern nsw football. 
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Neveraeurosnob - 20 Dec 2021 12:33 PM
Munrubenmuz - 20 Dec 2021 10:50 AM

That's football NSW annual report. Those areas you mention are part of northern nsw football. 

Ah. That'd explain it.

Thanks


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Lack of money

CF English football has spent one billion pounds in 10 years of the elite player pathway
4 per cent transfer levy helps

Europe is funding the war not Chelsea football club

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dirkvanadidas - 25 Dec 2021 7:49 AM
Lack of money

CF English football has spent one billion pounds in 10 years of the elite player pathway
4 per cent transfer levy helps

Maybe explains England's youth development, but doesn't explain Central and South America. Nor many parts of Europe without those levels of investment and of course there is Africa to consider.
From my observations, Its about weak football culture, much of this is reflected in our football architecture [Closed Football League with associated salary caps, EOI for entry into First Tier,  and regulations, NPL Licence requirements, Member Federation involvement in youth identification and development, no transfer system], we don't use the proven Global Model and we pay for it.
These all contribute to our poor player development outcomes.
Let alone our geographic location in the world, we border no world powers in football, this also isolates us from the pressures of competitiveness.
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Arthur - 25 Dec 2021 11:16 AM
dirkvanadidas - 25 Dec 2021 7:49 AM

Maybe explains England's youth development, but doesn't explain Central and South America. Nor many parts of Europe without those levels of investment and of course there is Africa to consider.
From my observations, Its about weak football culture, much of this is reflected in our football architecture [Closed Football League with associated salary caps, EOI for entry into First Tier,  and regulations, NPL Licence requirements, Member Federation involvement in youth identification and development, no transfer system], we don't use the proven Global Model and we pay for it.
These all contribute to our poor player development outcomes.
Let alone our geographic location in the world, we border no world powers in football, this also isolates us from the pressures of competitiveness.

All good points - but I think it is more about the culture than the architecture. Kids play FIFA more than live with a football at their feet all the time. Training - even every day is still not the same as living and breathing football every day. When kids wake up and kick a ball around from morning to night all day, where people play for the love of the game we will have a football culture  - until then we will have a football industry. 
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patjennings - 25 Dec 2021 12:52 PM
Arthur - 25 Dec 2021 11:16 AM

All good points - but I think it is more about the culture than the architecture. Kids play FIFA more than live with a football at their feet all the time. Training - even every day is still not the same as living and breathing football every day. When kids wake up and kick a ball around from morning to night all day, where people play for the love of the game we will have a football culture  - until then we will have a football industry. 

As I stated, and we agree weak football culture is our problem.
But this just does not play out with kids not playing and training in their own time,  as pointed out weak football culture results in administrators establishing weak football architecture. It’s not just the kids, but everyone and everything around them.

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Talented 17-20 year old Aussies are attracted overseas too soon, where they spend more time playing in lowly reserve comps or sitting on the pine, at a time in their career they should be playing 30-40 games a season and scoring goals.
Kwame Yeboah and Brandon Borello are great examples. Both looked wonderful prospects at Brisbane, then raced off to Germany before actually achieving anything.
Yeboah then played a grand total of 76 games in the next 5 seasons.
Borello played 59 games in four seasons.
Two potential NT players who ruined their careers.




Edited
4 Years Ago by clockwork orange
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Hi all, based  on parents wirth experience, what would you do? My 15 yo son is still looking for advice, and it's getting to the pointy end.
1. Play NPL in Newcastle - coach seems okay, my son knows one player in the team. Means 1hr 15 min commute each way for me 3-4 x a week. Standard is reasonable across the board. 
2. Play for local community club on Central Coast. My son says standard is easily higher in that team than any NPL club in Newcastle he has trialled for. These are kids that should potentially be in mariners or CCU but for whatever reason were never given the chance. The coaching is outstanding as well. Same training schedule as NPL. Obviously comp not as strong, but club is very strong. He knows many of these players. 
The question that I want to know, (and I appreciate your prior comments) would NPL Newcastle for a 15 yo bring any real advantage? 
He will continue to focus on develoing with his two coaches as well and self-train. 
Many thanks for your insights. 
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Neveraeurosnob - 19 Jan 2022 2:33 PM
Hi all, based  on parents wirth experience, what would you do? My 15 yo son is still looking for advice, and it's getting to the pointy end.
1. Play NPL in Newcastle - coach seems okay, my son knows one player in the team. Means 1hr 15 min commute each way for me 3-4 x a week. Standard is reasonable across the board. 
2. Play for local community club on Central Coast. My son says standard is easily higher in that team than any NPL club in Newcastle he has trialled for. These are kids that should potentially be in mariners or CCU but for whatever reason were never given the chance. The coaching is outstanding as well. Same training schedule as NPL. Obviously comp not as strong, but club is very strong. He knows many of these players. 
The question that I want to know, (and I appreciate your prior comments) would NPL Newcastle for a 15 yo bring any real advantage? 
He will continue to focus on develoing with his two coaches as well and self-train. 
Many thanks for your insights. 

what are his main attributes? If he is of good technical level and skillful already, how much will an academy do for him? a 15 yo playing week in week out in the NPL sticks out and probably gets better recognition IMO and potentially an aleague contract in a year or two. Needs to start thinking how he can show how good he is? how can he be different from his peers? can you really do that with 30 other youngsters?
Edited
3 Years Ago by jas88
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jas88 - 19 Jan 2022 3:28 PM
Neveraeurosnob - 19 Jan 2022 2:33 PM

what are his main attributes? If he is of good technical level and skillful already, how much will an academy do for him? a 15 yo playing week in week out in the NPL sticks out and probably gets better recognition IMO and potentially an aleague contract in a year or two. Needs to start thinking how he can show how good he is? how can he be different from his peers? can you really do that with 30 other youngsters?

Technically gifted midfielder. Small for his age (but rapidly catching up). Lacks finishing skills (in my view!).
There's no academy involvement in either case. 
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Neveraeurosnob - 19 Jan 2022 2:33 PM
Hi all, based  on parents wirth experience, what would you do? My 15 yo son is still looking for advice, and it's getting to the pointy end.
1. Play NPL in Newcastle - coach seems okay, my son knows one player in the team. Means 1hr 15 min commute each way for me 3-4 x a week. Standard is reasonable across the board. 
2. Play for local community club on Central Coast. My son says standard is easily higher in that team than any NPL club in Newcastle he has trialled for. These are kids that should potentially be in mariners or CCU but for whatever reason were never given the chance. The coaching is outstanding as well. Same training schedule as NPL. Obviously comp not as strong, but club is very strong. He knows many of these players. 
The question that I want to know, (and I appreciate your prior comments) would NPL Newcastle for a 15 yo bring any real advantage? 
He will continue to focus on develoing with his two coaches as well and self-train. 
Many thanks for your insights. 

Absolute armature opinion from me mate but sounds like the community club is the way to go.. Unless your lad is ultrafocused 2.5 hours of travel and 2-3 hours of training a night for 3--4 times a week will grow old very quickly...  Playing at a decent level and getting good coaching and advice is just as valuable as sacrificing it all for a small step up .... in my opinion. 
Good luck with it all, keep us all posted
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Neveraeurosnob - 19 Jan 2022 2:33 PM
Hi all, based  on parents wirth experience, what would you do? My 15 yo son is still looking for advice, and it's getting to the pointy end.
1. Play NPL in Newcastle - coach seems okay, my son knows one player in the team. Means 1hr 15 min commute each way for me 3-4 x a week. Standard is reasonable across the board. 
2. Play for local community club on Central Coast. My son says standard is easily higher in that team than any NPL club in Newcastle he has trialled for. These are kids that should potentially be in mariners or CCU but for whatever reason were never given the chance. The coaching is outstanding as well. Same training schedule as NPL. Obviously comp not as strong, but club is very strong. He knows many of these players. 
The question that I want to know, (and I appreciate your prior comments) would NPL Newcastle for a 15 yo bring any real advantage? 
He will continue to focus on develoing with his two coaches as well and self-train. 
Many thanks for your insights. 

Below are my thoughts based on my 10+ years as coach and parent in Vic NPL & community comps.

As a regional parent/kid, you guys are in a tough position and question you need to ask your son and yourself is, is football his chosen career (ie does he want to become a pro) and how much are you both prepared to sacrifice to get there?

If thats the dream then personally you have no choice but to join NPL either in Newy or preferably Sydney. As good as regional comps are, the capital cities are where the talent is concentrated which is why both CCM and NJ youth teams now play in Syd NPL comp.

Unfortunately as a junior there is a lot of snobbery regarding leagues and if you arent in NPL as a junior then many doors are automatically closed. In Vic AL academies only shop in the FFV Talented player programs and sometimes NPL, plus majority of the strong NPL clubs wont even consider "community" kids for trials and majority of State Fed talented player programs only shop in NPL as well. Is NPL comp that good, not really, not enough talented players spread accross too many teams but Federations love the income (in Vic it is $40K per year per club for 4 junior teams so do the maths) and it is the only show in town.

Once in NPL, work hard, get noticed and get into seniors comp ASAP and again many NPL clubs (particularly the effnik's) have links with OS teams and can arrange trials for talented youth. Also AL tends to take established performers out of NPL ahead of their own youth so that is also another pathway into pro ranks.

If being a pro isnt his dream, then reinvest the travel time into study and continue playing in the local comps and let nature take its course. If he is good enough he will get good seniors opportunities.

I have seen a few regional juniors invest heavily in the dream and end up with nothing so with current state of youth development in Aus, I'd suggest you stay local and focus on school and let nature take its course.










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Thanks guys for your input. Incredibly appreciated.
Still a bit torn!
Yes, his goal is to be a pro. 
His ex-pro Austrian coach - who coaches some Mariners adult academy and jets players, suggests staying at his local community club. He says in Europe no one has even heard of NPL. He suggests the excess travel time and playing in an average NPL team provides little advantage. Different story if you are in one of the big club academies. It is also true that his local community club here on Central Coast is a better quality team and better quality coaches (hard to believe I know) than the three NPL clubs in Newcastle he has trained with. I can confirm that from what I have seen as well. It's a travesty that we have a community club here at 16s that could probably easily beat many NPL clubs - but nowhere for these players to go if you can't break into the boys club at CCU. (Mariners well that's another story)
However you make the point about 'being in the system' and the advantages that can bring. That's could be a deciding factor.
My son holds a EU passport and we have no hesitation of going over for trials when the time comes. He has around him support with links to clubs. 
His coaches says playing at a high level is important at his age but technical skill development between 15-17 is really the crucial factor. Hence why he trains 6 days a week and has 1v1 coaching once a week, in addition to any club action. 
We've probably got a week to make a decsion. 
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Neveraeurosnob - 20 Jan 2022 11:03 AM

Thanks guys for your input. Incredibly appreciated.
Still a bit torn!
Yes, his goal is to be a pro. 
His ex-pro Austrian coach - who coaches some Mariners adult academy and jets players, suggests staying at his local community club. He says in Europe no one has even heard of NPL. He suggests the excess travel time and playing in an average NPL team provides little advantage. Different story if you are in one of the big club academies. It is also true that his local community club here on Central Coast is a better quality team and better quality coaches (hard to believe I know) than the three NPL clubs in Newcastle he has trained with. I can confirm that from what I have seen as well. It's a travesty that we have a community club here at 16s that could probably easily beat many NPL clubs - but nowhere for these players to go if you can't break into the boys club at CCU. (Mariners well that's another story)
However you make the point about 'being in the system' and the advantages that can bring. That's could be a deciding factor.
My son holds a EU passport and we have no hesitation of going over for trials when the time comes. He has around him support with links to clubs. 
His coaches says playing at a high level is important at his age but technical skill development between 15-17 is really the crucial factor. Hence why he trains 6 days a week and has 1v1 coaching once a week, in addition to any club action. 
We've probably got a week to make a decsion. 

If he really want to be a pro and you have an EU passport, WTF are you still doing in OZ, use that passport and move OS and his chances of becoming a pro improve exponentially!









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Forum question... and I honestly don't know the answer....

Question.... Why can't A-League clubs loan out their youth players needing match day experience to NPL sides even if they still pay the wages...

I would rate some of the NPL coaches as excellent ... take Mark Crittenden of Blacktown City .... excellent coach... why do say SFC or WSW not use this club for their better say 16 to 18 year olds... there are other coaches as well...

The talent wasted by the bigger clubs is hurting Australian Football... I am sure clubs like South Melbourne would welcome some MV or MC youth into their sides .... would be a benefit to both...



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Midfielder - 19 Jan 2022 4:41 PM
Forum question... and I honestly don't know the answer....

Question.... Why can't A-League clubs loan out their youth players needing match day experience to NPL sides even if they still pay the wages...

I would rate some of the NPL coaches as excellent ... take Mark Crittenden of Blacktown City .... excellent coach... why do say SFC or WSW not use this club for their better say 16 to 18 year olds... there are other coaches as well...

The talent wasted by the bigger clubs is hurting Australian Football... I am sure clubs like South Melbourne would welcome some MV or MC youth into their sides .... would be a benefit to both...



for SFC - why would they do that? SFC's NPL side play in the same league. However I agree that other clubs, particularly in Victoria where the youth teams play in NPL3, should definitely consider this though. 
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Midfielder - 19 Jan 2022 4:41 PM
Forum question... and I honestly don't know the answer....

Question.... Why can't A-League clubs loan out their youth players needing match day experience to NPL sides even if they still pay the wages...

I would rate some of the NPL coaches as excellent ... take Mark Crittenden of Blacktown City .... excellent coach... why do say SFC or WSW not use this club for their better say 16 to 18 year olds... there are other coaches as well...

The talent wasted by the bigger clubs is hurting Australian Football... I am sure clubs like South Melbourne would welcome some MV or MC youth into their sides .... would be a benefit to both...



So, let me get this straight Mid. You propose that unpaid NPL Aleague players get loaned out to  rival NPL clubs to get game time ( at the expense of existing players who are better than them AND are getting paid to play) , why aren't these players getting game time at their awesome academies you are so proud of?    I'm disappointed that you could believe it would be a mutually beneficial deal for both clubs? How?  Would love to hear how you feel an NPL club would benefit from fielding an 18 year old not good enough to make an Aleaguee NPL squad? 
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Midfielder - 19 Jan 2022 4:41 PM
Forum question... and I honestly don't know the answer....

Question.... Why can't A-League clubs loan out their youth players needing match day experience to NPL sides even if they still pay the wages...

I would rate some of the NPL coaches as excellent ... take Mark Crittenden of Blacktown City .... excellent coach... why do say SFC or WSW not use this club for their better say 16 to 18 year olds... there are other coaches as well...

The talent wasted by the bigger clubs is hurting Australian Football... I am sure clubs like South Melbourne would welcome some MV or MC youth into their sides .... would be a benefit to both...



Unfortunately Mid, you have inadvertently nailed the biggest issue holding back Aus football, the perception that AL is the only game in town and everyone needs to help them generate returns for their investors.

So instead of creating another "unique" process to try help AL, why dont we just implement a traditional transfer system which allows ANY club to sell players locally and OS, same as every other traditional football organization around the world does.











Edited
3 Years Ago by AJF
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Just to make matters worse for players on the central coast, Central Coast football have just severed ties with FNSW and FFA and now stand alone. This stoush is just making it harder in an area with a plethora of football talent. None of the clubs can now participate in the FFA cup. The situation is madness. 
https://coastcommunitynews.com.au/central-coast/news/2022/01/football-australia-de-registers-cc-football/



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Neveraeurosnob - 19 Jan 2022 4:50 PM
Just to make matters worse for players on the central coast, Central Coast football have just severed ties with FNSW and FFA and now stand alone. This stoush is just making it harder in an area with a plethora of football talent. None of the clubs can now participate in the FFA cup. The situation is madness. 
https://coastcommunitynews.com.au/central-coast/news/2022/01/football-australia-de-registers-cc-football/



I have written an article on this...
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Interesting this has come up. My son works with a lady whose son plays off the bench for Sydney FC.

She was telling him that they used to carpool with that lad Tilio and leave for training at 4.30pm, 4 nights a week and get back at 10.30pm at night.

Amazing what sacrifices people will make for their kids. Such a big commitment for such a rare chance at a contract.


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Speaking of youth develop, does anyone know about about the Talent Support Program that some, if not all, state federations run?
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theFOOTBALLlover - 20 Jan 2022 11:08 PM
Speaking of youth develop, does anyone know about about the Talent Support Program that some, if not all, state federations run?

Hi All, if of any interest, we decided to stay at A grade community football on the Central Coast. It may or may not be the right choice but his euro coach reckons just play at a decent standard but focus mostly on skill devlopment. All that travel to Newcastle and I don't think is worth it. And, aafter watching his community team on the Central Coast, they are light years ahead in terms of skill and professionalism than the three NPL teams we experienced in Newcastle. 
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Neveraeurosnob - 24 Feb 2022 11:16 AM
theFOOTBALLlover - 20 Jan 2022 11:08 PM

Hi All, if of any interest, we decided to stay at A grade community football on the Central Coast. It may or may not be the right choice but his euro coach reckons just play at a decent standard but focus mostly on skill devlopment. All that travel to Newcastle and I don't think is worth it. And, aafter watching his community team on the Central Coast, they are light years ahead in terms of skill and professionalism than the three NPL teams we experienced in Newcastle. 

Good luck to your lad..... home he makes it.
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all the best to him mate.....having made the decision.
Main thing is for the boy is train train train improve his skills.
Keep us updated when possible.


Love Football

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Are you better off just organising and s(p)ending your kid to go train in Europe for a year than fork out 5+ years worth of elite junior fees here?

Risk & reward seems the same to me personally. At least they could potentially come back & milk it having Europe on their player CV.

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                                                                                                                                     + x [quote] [b] Decentric 2 - 14 Dec 2021 12:04 AM [/b]...
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                                                                                                                                 + x [quote] [b] Medellin - 11 Dec 2021 4:25 PM [/b]...
Neveraeurosnob - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                     + x [quote] [b] Neveraeurosnob - 16 Dec 2021 9:20 AM...
Arthur - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                             + x [quote] [b] jas88 - 10 Dec 2021 8:25 PM [/b] I...
tomw - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                 + x [quote] [b] tomw - 17 Dec 2021 8:22 AM [/b] +...
jas88 - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                     + x [quote] [b] jas88 - 17 Dec 2021 1:28 PM [/b] +...
Munrubenmuz - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                     + x [quote] [b] jas88 - 17 Dec 2021 1:28 PM [/b]...
tomw - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                         “Every disadvantage has its advantage.” Johan Cruyff First things...
Arthur - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                             + x [quote] [b] Arthur - 14 Dec 2021 12:39 PM [/b]...
Neveraeurosnob - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                         As Arthur days above Also don't expect a linear pathway, deal with...
dirkvanadidas - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                         Thanks for everyone for their insights and supportive comments!...
Neveraeurosnob - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                             + x [quote] [b] Neveraeurosnob - 16 Dec 2021 9:46 AM...
Munrubenmuz - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                 + x [quote] [b] Munrubenmuz - 17 Dec 2021 8:27 AM [/b]...
Monoethnic Social Club - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                         Can't edit the above so will repost here. Having said that I don't...
Munrubenmuz - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                             Youth development will rise though a key difficult but crucial change...
Vincenzo Hot Dog - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                             + x [quote] [b] Munrubenmuz - 17 Dec 2021 8:32 AM [/b]...
df1982 - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                 + x [quote] [b] df1982 - 17 Dec 2021 12:22 PM [/b]...
Munrubenmuz - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                     + x [quote] [b] Munrubenmuz - 17 Dec 2021 2:22 PM [/b]...
df1982 - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                         + x [quote] [b] df1982 - 17 Dec 2021 4:13 PM [/b]...
Neveraeurosnob - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                             + x [quote] [b] Neveraeurosnob - 17 Dec 2021 7:03 PM...
Monoethnic Social Club - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                                 + x [quote] [b] Monoethnic Social Club - 17 Dec 2021...
Neveraeurosnob - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                                     + x [quote] [b] Neveraeurosnob - 18 Dec 2021 7:48 AM...
patjennings - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                                         + x [quote] [b] patjennings - 18 Dec 2021 12:50 PM [/b]...
Neveraeurosnob - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                                             + x [quote] [b] Neveraeurosnob - 19 Dec 2021 7:33 AM...
Munrubenmuz - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                                                 + x [quote] [b] Munrubenmuz - 20 Dec 2021 10:45 AM [/b]...
Neveraeurosnob - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                         Great thread and thank you for clarifying your posts Neveraeurosnob.....
Medellin - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                         salary cap makes big transfer fees impossible thus it isnt really...
Davstar - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                         The next step for FNSW to take, having done the right thing in...
Gyfox - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                             + x [quote] [b] Gyfox - 19 Dec 2021 10:55 AM [/b] The...
theFOOTBALLlover - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                 + x [quote] [b] theFOOTBALLlover - 19 Dec 2021 1:07 PM...
Gyfox - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                     + x [quote] [b] Gyfox - 19 Dec 2021 7:45 PM [/b] +...
Neveraeurosnob - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                     + x [quote] [b] Gyfox - 19 Dec 2021 7:45 PM [/b] +...
Munrubenmuz - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                         + x [quote] [b] Munrubenmuz - 20 Dec 2021 10:50 AM [/b]...
Neveraeurosnob - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                             + x [quote] [b] Neveraeurosnob - 20 Dec 2021 12:33 PM...
Munrubenmuz - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                         Lack of money CF English football has spent one billion pounds in 10...
dirkvanadidas - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                             + x [quote] [b] dirkvanadidas - 25 Dec 2021 7:49 AM [/b]...
Arthur - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                 + x [quote] [b] Arthur - 25 Dec 2021 11:16 AM [/b]...
patjennings - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                     + x [quote] [b] patjennings - 25 Dec 2021 12:52 PM [/b]...
Arthur - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                         Talented 17-20 year old Aussies are attracted overseas too soon, where...
clockwork orange - 4 Years Ago
                                                                                                                         Hi all, based on parents wirth experience, what would you do? My 15...
Neveraeurosnob - 3 Years Ago
                                                                                                                             + x [quote] [b] Neveraeurosnob - 19 Jan 2022 2:33 PM...
jas88 - 3 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                 + x [quote] [b] jas88 - 19 Jan 2022 3:28 PM [/b] +...
Neveraeurosnob - 3 Years Ago
                                                                                                                             + x [quote] [b] Neveraeurosnob - 19 Jan 2022 2:33 PM...
Monoethnic Social Club - 3 Years Ago
                                                                                                                             + x [quote] [b] Neveraeurosnob - 19 Jan 2022 2:33 PM...
AJF - 3 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                 Thanks guys for your input. Incredibly appreciated. Still a bit...
Neveraeurosnob - 3 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                     + x [quote] [b] Neveraeurosnob - 20 Jan 2022 11:03 AM...
AJF - 3 Years Ago
                                                                                                                         Forum question... and I honestly don't know the answer.......
Midfielder - 3 Years Ago
                                                                                                                             + x [quote] [b] Midfielder - 19 Jan 2022 4:41 PM [/b]...
sportaddict - 3 Years Ago
                                                                                                                             + x [quote] [b] Midfielder - 19 Jan 2022 4:41 PM [/b]...
Monoethnic Social Club - 3 Years Ago
                                                                                                                             + x [quote] [b] Midfielder - 19 Jan 2022 4:41 PM [/b]...
AJF - 3 Years Ago
                                                                                                                         Just to make matters worse for players on the central coast, Central...
Neveraeurosnob - 3 Years Ago
                                                                                                                             + x [quote] [b] Neveraeurosnob - 19 Jan 2022 4:50 PM...
Midfielder - 3 Years Ago
                                                                                                                         Interesting this has come up. My son works with a lady whose son plays...
Munrubenmuz - 3 Years Ago
                                                                                                                         Speaking of youth develop, does anyone know about about the Talent...
theFOOTBALLlover - 3 Years Ago
                                                                                                                             + x [quote] [b] theFOOTBALLlover - 20 Jan 2022 11:08 PM...
Neveraeurosnob - 3 Years Ago
                                                                                                                                 + x [quote] [b] Neveraeurosnob - 24 Feb 2022 11:16 AM...
Monoethnic Social Club - 3 Years Ago
                                                                                                                         all the best to him mate.....having made the decision. Main thing is...
LFC. - 3 Years Ago
                                                                                                                         Are you better off just organising and s(p)ending your kid to go train...
TheDjentleman - 3 Years Ago


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