I've never implied that.

Many coaches are not students of the game. Many coaches are not well read about trends globally. Plenty of fans are.

Sadly many football coaches follow AFL, league or union in preference to football in Aus!

D2's blinkered take on football kills all the enjoyment of the game.

It's fair enough that that is the way he looks at football, nothing wrong with it.

But he has to lecture us and look down on us, implying that the rest of us are somehow inadequate that we don't go along with his statss based approach.

Most of us "follow the game"- in all its different aspects. Decentrics take represents what is wrong with modern football IMO.

True, there is an element of luck - 40% attributed to chance in games.

We were lucky too. It has played a part.

Luck balances out over time, and those other factors that you tend to dismiss come into play like - tactics and stats. You are quite well informed in some areas. Many coaches don't like the cerebral and methodical nature of current Aus coaching - like Frank Farina.

Have you read Michael Cox, Simon Kuper, Jonathon Wilson, David Winner and Ralph Honigsten football books? 

I don't look down on other posters at all.  Heaps post articles I haven't seen and appreciate them. Others post a lot about football finances - that I don't know much about.  Others have a wide grasp of overseas Aussies. Others know a lot about refereeing. Good luck to them. I enjoy reading their posts.

 Some others are becoming conversant with stats. Some people in all walks of life are confronted when stats, or in this case, game based football analysis, refute their opinions.

I simply present game based football rationale for holding some views about players/teams. Some  Eurosnobs  are confronted the Socceroos are more successful than some of their parent countries.

Twaddle.. name one soccer coach who prefers following Aussie Rules or rugby.

By the way, there is no such game as "AFL".

That's a pretty sweeping statement. I think you should provide some stats to back it up.

I think you're both missing the point being made on that statement - I gather it's directed at the many grassroots coaches around Australia who support NRL/AFL and do not watch the A-League (which I gather there will be no stats, but I still think the number will be higher than you think it will be..)

Probably moreso in rural areas to be honest, I've definitely met a few of them in my time before going to Canberra.

You are probably talking about volunteer coaches of small kids in minor competitions.
In which case I would just be grateful that someone is willing to do it.
Doubt if any professional coaches would not be bothered to watch A League or any top league.

Probably better tell the AFL that...






https://play.afl/

Double post.

True.

I didn't mean current renowned pro coaches, but a lot of rep coaches, NPL coaches, senior suburban club coaches, youth coaches I've coached with  - or  met in coaching courses.

I'm not going to post their names on here.

I suppose you would have to expect this in Tasmania.

It is different at  the  ACT Institute Of Sport, as it was then for football coach education. Coaches tend to come from all over the country and sometimes overseas.

With the new holistic national curriculum all states are very much part of the national network in terms of access to coach education.

In the 30 odd big clubs  from  the best UEFA leagues ranked after the Big Five, Aus has Matt Ryan playing at AZ Alkmaar, who have UEFA pedigree, and are a big Dutch club.

Aidan O'Neill plays at Standard Liege, a big Belgian club. 

This quality of club, probably plays at a similar level to a lower or mid ranked Big Five club - definitely if they play Champ League or Europa League football.

Tilio has struggled to get game time at Celtic. Hrustic is also struggling at his Big Five club. Not sure where Mabil is with his club football ATM?

With five Aus players at top of  the league Big Five second division clubs, a number of our players are thereabouts with Big Five or equivalent. There would be little difference between bottom of  ladder Big Five clubs and top of the  ladder clubs in Big Five second divisions.

So if you put literally everything into a blender, mix it up, and come to an estimation of where the Socceroos would be, say, on the English, German and Italian ladders?

With my rudimentary knowledge, my gut feel overall is that:

- Socceroos are approximately a bottom-rung EFL Championship or bottom rung 2.Bundesliga team, it at all.

- Japan might be an upper, higher-mid tier EFL Championship team

Here's my rationale:

For example, one of our best players, McGree, is at a mid-table EFL Championship team, and most of the other players would be below him.

Another example: Jackson Irvine, one of the most experienced and better players in the current squad - he is at a top 2.Bundesliga team. So assuming most of the younger ones would be far below that overall level, one could say the Socceroos are like a struggling low-level 2.Bundesliga squad.

I realise it was amazing that the previous 2022 World Cup squad did so well against top nations like Denmark and Brazil -- but the 2024 Asian Cup squad more than one year out from the last World Cup has been significantly depleted of experience and even quality.

not a bad summary to me (and we have always pulled off those good performances here and there against known more experienced NT's as mentioned) And to respond to D2's similar post imo, the GG and ressies/fringe players and close outsiders done pretty well way back then playing in top and level down leagues.
TBH we are lower today on average than way back then.

Both are your quintessential Aussie footballer: athletic and mentally competitive but with a horrid first touch and in general rubbish ball control.  I've been watching similar guys run around like headless chooks in the green and gold since the days of Kenny Murphy getting picked ahead of Zarko Odzakov in the 1980's.

And yet here we are 40 years later, STILL producing and PICKING these types at the highest level for the nation.  s?  Were Jackson Irvine and Riley McGree the best of all the juniors that played the game in their respective cohort to rise to the top  Really?

Who, how and why do they get picked to make it up through the ranks?

OTOH Aaron  Mooy went from Huddersfield to scoring against past Man United in the EPL..but he was you know an actually footballer, not an athlete trying to kick a football pretending to be one.

100% we are lower now.  The current Socceroo players ceiling is tier 2 Euro leagues because to go the next level, its technique that matters.  If you don't have good technique by 15, then good luck developing that later.

Yep agreed and your previous post above.

all due respect to some fellow posters here and naming players such as Irvine - seriously this is one of our Snr players we’re looking up to and talking him up imo.
Seriously mid level player full stop period as is many others.

 As individual footballers, everything  you've posited in  this post is eminently  plausible, John Smith.

I was reading an article on ESPN about England's GG of around 2002-6 underachieving as both an England national team and later as  pro coaches. Gareth Southgate wasn't mentioned, but English CBs in the mooted English GG were John Terry and Sol Campbell. Southgate IMO has been a really successful English coach.

I think it was Gary Neville stating England always played a 4-4-2 and no national team coach they had could work out the right game plan for  the quality players they had at the time. Undoubtedly, they underperformed as a team. Most players agreed.

Spain also underachieved as an international team unit for a long time given the high quality of their domestic club players.

Football is a team sport.

   I believe if Arnie was coaching the current Socceroo team,  him being a superior coach to  many Big Five coaches ( others will disagree, I'll justify my  rationale later), and it might help to be two years down the track with the Aus tyros emerging, using the the current systems Arnie uses, the Socceroos would punch above their weight playing against these UEFA Big Five  clubs.

This is   particularly if they played outside Europe - in the Middle-east, East Asia, South America or Africa.  It would also depend on the   Big Five teams having plenty of Brazilian, Argentinian, Uruguayan, French, German, Spanish, Dutch, Portuguese,  African, Croatian,  Mexican, Japanese national team players who have played a lot of recent international football quite successfully in these unfamiliar conditions to most UEFA players.

Aus have been outclassed by France in the WC in the Middle East. We played better against them in Russia, in Europe in WC 2018. Arguably there is no club side as good in world football as France.

We've done better against Argentina in Asia ( the best current international team in the world ATM), and England in England, who are both world powerhouses too.  We've also held our own against Ecuador, Peru, Denmark, Tunisia and Mexico, mid-strength world ranked teams. The Socceroo team unit played above the individuals comprising  the team in these fixtures.

A number of newer players have said they've been made to feel very welcome in the Socceroo team unit. That team morale is high and unity of purpose is paramount. A numb erof Socceroos , at any given time, may feel more comfortable in the national team environment  than their clubs.

Then again, we were dire against Palestine. Most teams have bad games.

It is  hypothetical though.  The matches will  never  happen.

I don't see Arnold in this list.

Top 50 coaches in the world, according to FourFourTwo

1 Pep Guardiola
2 Carlo Ancelotti
3 Jurgen Klopp
4 Antonio Conte
5 Stefano Pioli
6 Mikel Arteta
7 Thomas Tuchel
8 Graham Potter
9 Julian Nagelsmann
10 Diego Simeone
11 Hans-Dieter Flick
12 Christophe Galtier
13 Eddie Howe
14 Xavi
15 Erik Ten Hag
16 Lionel Scaloni
17 Christian Streich
18 Roberto Mancini
19 Urs Fischer
20 Unai Emery
21. Oliver Glasner
22. Mauricio Pochettino
23. Gian Piero Gasperini
24. Arne Slot
25. David Moyes
26. Abel Ferreira
27. Luciano Spalletti
28. Julen Lopetegui
29. Kasper Hjulmand
30. Ange Postecoglou
31. Marcelo Gallardo
32. Tite
33. Patrick Vieira
34. Luis Enrique
35. José Mourinho
36. Ivan Juric
37. Thomas Frank
38. Regis Le Bris
39. Marco Silva
40. Simone Inzaghi
41. Roberto De Zerbi
42. Igor Tudor
43. Lucien Favre
44. Giovanni van Bronckhorst
45. Paulo Fonseca
46. Vincenzo Italiano
47. Jesse Marsch
48. Marco Rose
49. Maurizio Sarri
50. Gareth Southgate

The pathway for Euro coaches is vastly different. For example  Xavi's first pro coaching appointment was in Qatar for Al Saad.  His second one was Barcelona.  That will never happen to anyone without those connections. 

And now Xavi is ranked 14 best coach in the world? Gimme a break.

Then of course landing a big club gig means managing top shelf players.  Its no exaggeration to say If Postecoglou had Anceloti's players, Real Madrid would have been 4-0 down before the half hour at Celtic Park in the first leg-is that down to the coach or down to the players?

Arnold's doing the best he can with the cattle he has to get results.  I don't enjoy the way his team plays but I'd do it just like him if I were in his shoes.

Don’t see Brendan Rodgers or Steve Clarke either?!  What’s your point?

They've also got Ange at #30, so they obviously don't have a frign clue 

I'm glad you've posted this. Thanks, Lurker.

According to Robbie Slater the French football mag, L'Equipe, is the most reputable in the world. They voted Arnie as number one coach at the World Cup. Other s hon 442 suggested the Moroccan coach also over achieved. I agree.

Initially I ask what  criteria those on 442 used to evaluate coaches? What sort of football background did they have?

 Sometimes in the media, there are  esteemed journos who know a lot about football ( good students of the game) who have  never coached, been coach educated or played at a high level. Yet these guys, Ralph Homigsten, David Winner, Simon Kuper, Jonathon Wilson and Michael Cox, write football books that are erudite in the sport. They proffer plausible positions and views - sometimes based on statistical data.

In one of Simon  Kuoper's books, along with economics professor, Stefan Syyzminski, they show that nearly every EPL team performs year in and year out  - based on the financial budget of the club. The coach is usually insignificant compared to the size of  the budget.  

Coaches rarely value add. That it deviates from the norm, when any coach consistently overachieves with the cattle they have had. This is based on evidence based research over decades.

However, there is an outstanding anomaly - Brian Clough and Peter Taylor!

They took Derby County and Nottingham Forest, up the table quickly, with a tiny budget compared to  other clubs. I  think they even won two successive UEFA Champ League titles with Notts Forest - again with a tiny budget compared  the big clubs in the UEFA Big Five.

Clough/Taylor are undoubtedly one of the greatest coaching combinations of all time! Clough had such a photographic memory of games, he didn't need stats. Players were astonished when he told them what they did right or wrong at various stages of  game - after the fixture had occurred.  The players often couldn't remember themselves doing it after the match! 

Taylor could identify potentially good players, nobody else could. They'd arrive at the club as nobodies, or has beens, and become stars within a short time.

Getting back to why Arnie is one of the best coaches in international football. When one looks at the budget of rival  teams  in Qatar, or even the opposition Aus has played since the World Cup, apart from Bahrain, Palestine and the Kiwis, Arnie continues to hold his own despite modest cattle.

 Arnie relies on scouting Aus underage players and fast tracking them - Rowles, Bos,  Silvera,  Baccus et al - based on potential - because he  doesn't have  the quantity of quality  cattle at senior levels.

Like Clough/Taylor,  and maybe Van Gaal, he moulds them  into the best team unit  they can be - most of the time. The Socceroos were shocking against Palestine though.

Looking at the list posted by 442. Most of them have coached the biggest clubs in the  Big Five leagues, or the international teams of the biggest seven leagues that  into the seven national teams in international football. Few have value added.

Looking at  methodology used to appraise some of the following.

*David Moyes. 

When did he ever take a team with a low budget, consistently, like Arnie ( did  with CCM), Clough/Taylor or Van Gaal, where Moyes had teams overperforming for sustained periods relative to other teams?
I'd contend if Moyes was put in the A L with a mid ranked team, based on his past record and simplistic methodology, they wouldn't value add. Ditto if Moyes was Socceroos coach. I've read Cahill's account of his training practices on the training ground. Uninspiring and out of touch with modern Continental football methodology. 

*Gareth Southgate 

On the other hand has slightly value added to England. Even if it is only performing  to the level expected, Southgate has had more success over a sustained period than most previous English coaches - since Alf Ramsey. He has also had success as an English underage coach. Previously, England had been  poor  with underage football.
It might surprise some, but England have far less Big Five league players than France, Spain, Germany, and possibly Argentina and Brazil, if we include their own leagues as world powerhouses - despite TSF's perceptions of their relative quality.

*Ange 

Only on this list since he has been coaching EPL. Do any of the   appraisers of the aforementioned list know anything about football outside Europe? Ange was just as good before he arrived at Spurs. In Scotland Celtic had biggest budget. Expected to win. Now Ange is at one of  the 6 or 7 richest clubs in England. If  Spurs achieve higher than 6th, by end of season, he could have value added. I think he value added to Socceroo in 2014 WC, but struggled as a WCQ   coach for Russia.

*Italian national team coaches

I'm not sure who was coaching Italy when they failed to qualify for 2018 and 2022 WCs, whilst winning Euro Champs 2020?

If Conte, Mancini or Ancelotti are in this aforementioned list, and they were coaching  Italy, it is a joke.

* Pep G and  Klopp have always had big budget clubs. Although not sure where Klopp started before Borussia Dortmund? I may have read where he value added prior. Klopp has also implemented the new gegenpressing/counterpressing concept very effectively. He may not be the progenitor of it, but he has coached it very well.

 Good coaches in the past not in this 442 list.

Arrigo Sacchi

Valery Lobanovski 

Viktor Maslov

Angel Herrera

Michel Platini

Rinus Michels

Louis Van Gaal

Olympic Lyon has a talent identification coach, whose name escapes me, who is nearly as good as Peter Taylor. Olympic Lyon may be a French club, who have had periods of overachieving, like Clough Taylor did with Forest and Derby County. They've had some value added coaching.

What about the Moroccan national team coach at the Qatar 2022 being on this aforementioned 442 list?



 

All good points, EB.

Looking at replays of  the  games against Mexico and Argentina, there were two quite different game plans. 

Against Argentina, using Baccus and O'Neill as  twin screeners, Aus played  more patient build ups through the central midfield. Despite losing 0-2 to Argentina, surprisingly, in hindsight it was  one of the best football performances from the Socceroos, since  they last played them at the last WC.  The worst  the Socceroos  have played was beating Palestine 1-0 in Kuwait City.

Against Mexico in the USA, using Irvine and Baccus as twin screeners, with  Irvine playing more as an 8 and Baccus at 6, we didn't  build up through the central midfield much at all. The Socceroos launched accelerated attacks down the flanks - most of the time.  We had a very low possession count against Mexico, despite drawing 2-2 and having similar or more chances on goal.

I've always liked Daniel De Silva as a technical Ten, or Hrustic ( apart from his lack of game sense).  I think McGree has better technique than  Irvine  in  tighter spaces as Ten. It is really only if we have midfielders with  the technical  calibre of O'Neill, Baccus and McGree - DDS and possibly Silvera, that we can play a  more technical game plan.

As you suggest, Enzo,  using power, bustling midfielders like Irvine and Metcalfe, Arnie may have better outcomes using  these types  of players by using a less technical game plan when we have the ball. However, Metcalfe has executed some successful technical dribbling techniques, like La Croqueta  ( Iniesta's signature move), beating opponents and shooting. 

Some of these games are really showing Irvine's lack of footwork up. Whereas McGree, O'Neill and Baccus, and Mooy before them, will reconfigure their feet much more quickly, if slightly off balance originally  before the  Socceroo in possession passes the ball,   they end in an effective body shape when receiving the ball in limited time and space, with one or two opponents closing them down. Conversely Irvine will often be off balance and mishit a pass, causing a turnover in the same scenarios. 

 Irvine frequently struggles to assume effective body shape quickly enough - hence he is off balance in these same scenarios.   Irvine is far better receiving the ball played in front of him with more space to run onto it, so he  can  ball carry and move  with the ball forwards in space in accelerated attacks. 

When O'Neill receives some might criticise him for rapidfire one and two touch passing the ball sideways or backwards, when  the Socceroo forwards are not opening adequate forward passing lanes.  But as soon as a more advanced player shows for the ball in a  diagonal passing lane whilst marked, or a straight ball , if unmarked, he is likely to produce quality passes. This ensures the opposition has to work much harder to cause turnovers.

Like Mooy and Milligan, O'Neill has good vision and awareness by scanning  the field of play effectively  before he receives the ball. Hrustic can do this role, technically, but  he doesn't think  quickly enough, or can't concentrate for long enough. Mooy did it effortlessly.  

He just did one of those AFC C license things years ago and takes what he learnt there as his frigging bible. His clearly not intelligent enough to know those things are a money-making take and hence can't make up his own mind about the game. You can automatically tell this by the language he uses BP, BPO ecetera, constantly parroting back the nonsense taught in these courses. 

Him having this license, and as he constantly tells us that he was a club technical director, he obviously feels he plays a part in youth development in this country, and for it to have gone nowhere and in all reality, it has gone massively backwards, this is like a personal insult to him, hence he defends the current Socceroo's over past generations until the cows come home.

I think his views don't necessarily represent what is wrong with modern football, I think they represent what is wrong with Australian football.            

We struggled against India says it all at this stage.