I kind of expect some odd compromise like - liscensed clubs cant drop below the second division

We could have a structure similar to Brazil where there is no P/R between non professional leagues and professional leagues.  We could expand both professional leagues to 16 clubs each then add a third one and build it up to 16 clubs over time if demand was there.  All professional leagues would be required to have P/R.

No evidence that the any Division can support 12, let alone 16.

Full pyramid allows for quick, fair, transparent and merit based movement when required.

That sounds like what Japan did, the J Leagues are pretty successful and in a country where football isn’t the number one sport.

Before the ‘negative nellies’ get in with their …’ but Japan is a small country with a bigger population’ … the JFA had a plan and stuck to it, something Football Australia is now coming to grips with.

I say give it a chance!

I would assume that it would be the other way around mate.. No club from NPL can be promoted unless they are willing/able to pay the license fee...... 

The only evidence of a "division" not be able to sustain 12 clubs is the Aleague .....  We wont know how many clubs is sustainable for the NST until it has been running for a few seasons .... Hope it doesn't contract down to 12 or 14 from 16 or whatever but if it needs to, it needs to.....  Only important thing is that it exists at the national level "peak" of the NPLS and all other leagues below it.... We need to filter players upwards.... not overseas.

Cant find the old thread
I was curious if any clubs own their stadiums

Looks like adelaide city, sydney unitex, marconi and melbourne knights do

Any others?

Preston Lions?

Council owned BT CONNOR.

Interesting news coming from the USA.... understanding the background helps in main part of the post..

Very brief background.
The MLS is a privately owned company whose shareholders are its 30 clubs and is considered the .main US professional competition. The USL is another company with teams and it is considered the second competition a kinda second division.. League 1 is a kida third division.

What separates these companies / leagues is essentially there stadium size and fan base size. Recently USL [United Soccer League] have been building new stadiums from 5k thu to 15K with most being in the 8 to 10 K size.... They also pay their players a reasonable amount.

Lesson and background over .

How does the above relate to the second tier or division in Australia...

Simple USL just signed a major broadcast deal with ESPN, and will go into direct competition to the MLS. 

Imagine if JJ can get a broadcast deal ... very very very interesting article 27 Feb in the US so hot off the press.... 

https://awfulannouncing.com/soccer/usl-espn-cbs-media-rights-2024.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

US have done incredibly well with attendance in both teirs
How many clubs own their own stadium?

Very interesting Mid, thanks for posting.

Can you imagine how much stronger American soccer could be if they where united rather than divided like this?

Anyway, a few months ago the scuttlebutt was that FA are looking to bundle the broadcast rights for Matildas, Socceroos, national youth tournaments, Australia Cup and NSD to a streaming service AND FTA broadcaster...  The info I got was that a fairly well known corporate sponsor was tied into the whole offering and the goal was to maximise free to air reach to drive popularity .... Negotiations were fairly well progressed and I am told an announcement is due in April/May this year..... 

Is the USL part of the pyramid ?

US doesn't use the metric system, its more of a trapezoid over there :)

Is USL joined to anyone else in any shape ?

Sometimes called the American soccer pyramid, teams and leagues are not linked by the system of promotion and relegation typical in soccer elsewhere. Instead, the United States Soccer Federation (USSF or U.S. Soccer) defines professional leagues in three levels, called divisions, with all other leagues sanctioned by the USSF not having an official designated level or division.

You can draw shapes around whatever you want these days :)

Yes and no, the investment  made by the owners of both MLS & USL teams is in the multi billions, the key to the rise of Football in the US is their crowds, and the fact that most of their teams own there own Football specific stadium.... given the state of US Football to the mids 1990 when MLS was formed, and how MLS almost died, until around 2004 they decided to invest in their own stadiums.

The simple truth, hhhhmmm maybe truth is the wrong word... however the time lines are quite clear, the MLS took off once they controlled and operated their own stadiums. Football prior to the MLS  was a very very very small sport with the US sporting environment.... could Football be were it is today in the US without the investment in stadiums and teams, would the investment in stadiums and teams have been there with P & R ????? 

The link below is what the USL is doing now for new stadiums to be built over the next couple of years....... whether right or wrong this is how Football is expanding in the professional environment US Football works. BTW the link is worth watching only 4 minutes long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hoRj6mjBeY&ab_channel=AFStadiums

"most of their teams own there own Football specific stadium"

Source ?

Heaps of info on this is not in one spot as far as I know.

In the MLS they have 30 teams,

New York share a Baseball stadium but are building their own in Queens.
New England play in a Gridiron Stadium, but are looking for a site to build their own.
Atlanta, Charlotte, Seattle, all share with Gridiron stadiums but crowds are high enough to warrant using these stadiums,
Chicago, play out of a city owned gridiron stadium, today the Gridiron team has moved so they play in a city owned massive stadium 3 times to big for them.
Vancover, play out of a gridiron stadium and are not looking to move,
San Diego, a new team have the rights to a college Football stadium for all but 7 weeks of the year

The other 22 stadiums are all Football specific and owned by MLS clubs, when NYFC and New England own their that will be 24 teams, San Diego effectively own theirs . Chicago have theirs even if the city own it is simply way way way to big, most see MLS owning or controlling 26 of their 30 stadiums.

As a side note Miami are building a new 26 K stadium and giving the stadium in the link below to their womens team.

If interested these are the MLS stadiums 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3BvCoa_PFE&t=296s&ab_channel=TFCStadiums

You may be interested in this its crowds for round 1 played last weekend it gives among other things stadium capacity and percentage of crowd to capacity. You may need to enlarge the link.

https://www.reddit.com/r/MLS/comments/1b1t3sd/oc_2024_mls_attendance_tracker_matchday_1/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Soccer_stadiums

I went to the first 8 and only 2 were club owned

Feel free to check the other 21

And yet, despite the billions of dollars spent they have 24 players in top 5 leagues, NO players even remotely in the top 200 current footballers, a national team who hasnt and wont win anything, a once powerful womens national team who is in steady decline as other countries around the world start realising the potential of womens sport....

But they are selling heaps of tickets and merchandise .... yay,,, sort of like baseball and gridiron almost... yay..... 

https://fbref.com/en/comps/Big5/nations/Big-5-European-Leagues-Nationalities

Mate, no idea how wiki says that, but everything I have read says the clubs own or control their stadiums, they have often received assistance from local cities, and maybe some have long term leases to local cities... Even Fozzie used to talk about how the MLS were building their own stadiums..

This is a 2017 article and it gives some indication, but all their recent stadiums have been built by the clubs...since 2017 a number of stadiums have been built by there clubs.... BTW not saying they did not get help in building them...

https://www.wcpo.com/news/government/local-politics/heres-how-much-other-cities-have-paid-to-help-build-mls-soccer-stadiums



 

All true.... I am not promoting the US system over P & R or anything else.... simply giving facts ... there are 30 MLS teams, 24 USL teams and they play mostly out of Football specific stadiums... 

In the MLS, currently 7 of the 30 stadiums are shared with other codes, and two of those seven are building or looking to build Football specific stadiums, The USL I don't know how many are shared I think its about 8 of the 24 are shared mostly with baseball teams.

Just my opinion, its difficult to judge how successful or not the MLS is as it was less than six months away from bankruptcy in 2004.... they changed a lot of things they did and they are were they are today... personally I don't agree with a lot of what they do.... however its foolish to say they have achieved nothing .

As I mentioned earlier, its impossible to hope in a time machine and go back to the mid 90's, when they had no national league, and the only way FIFA would award them the WC was to establish a national league, and that was the birth of the MLS.... could or would the growth have happened anyway... who knows except by 2004 they were broke and at one point down to 10 teams with one guy owing 7 clubs....

But back to my post, the USL has signed a deal with ESPN and other broadcasters, not sure for how much... thats there system..

  Easy, click on the stadium links.   I don't know if wiki is 100% right or on the other hand any reason why it would be wrong, but it ties in with that article.

and yes, I posted that article last time you made this claim about the MLS 

Many Local Authorities have been strongarmed into building expensive infrastructure at taxpayer expense and are now regretting it.

Looking at top 8 - 7 are effectively club owned. For Utah - David Blitzer/Ryan Smith are owners of RSL. For Charlotte - Panthers (NFL) are same owner as Charlotte FC. Note for some teams - they either got perks or were granted rights to build on public plots - so owner is listed as city/municipality. The teams have been granted long term favorable leases - the key thing to look at here is the "Operator" line - which confers the key benefits of owning the stadium (i.e. they control monetization - advertising, ticket prices, game day revenue, etc., control scheduling and can monetize non-game/out of season events - concerts, etc.). That revenue stream is crucial for all sports that don't have massive TV deals - still very important for MLS teams even with Apple deal.

Vancouver is exception - its owned by city predating use by Whitecaps - so Caps sometimes lose out on scheduling conflicts and i don't think have as favorable conditions.

Toronto is owned by Toronto FC owner (Maple Leaf Sports) - but I think city did put some restrictions in that they need to share with CFL team - so there are some limitations there on scheduling (and honestly - field condition sometimes after CFL use).

It is extremely easy to judge how successful the MLS has or hasnt been Mid. Just look at the performances of their national teams compared to other national teams.

Its great that they are increasing the popularity of the sport over there and a small minority of people are profiting from this shift but football is popular all around the world, that is no achievement it just means they are finally waking up and joining the rest of the globe.

They have developed less world class players over the past 20 years of their "professionalism" than such economic powerhouses like Mali, Cameroon, Ghana and Senegal... not mention countries with populations 1/100th of theirs ... Thats  a huge FAIL for me.

Based on NT performance sure. Based on kids running around playing football, team supporters having fun and all the rest of it does it really matter?

If millions love it, play it and stadiums are full isn't that a success?

99/100 countries in the world ALREADY have this though Muz, what does the exorbitant Ponzi scheme have to do with anything?

Junior Soccer was the most particpated sport activity in the US well before the MLS came along btw.

Zero to do with it but it works for them. Just like owning a fuckton of guns does.

Everyone else thinks they're nuts but they don't see a problem.