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numklpkgulftumch
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIn the big picture looking at all this just really shows no matter the good points finally having a Pro comp and more, drew new crowds originally and money a closed comp has been a experiment that has failed the game down to grass roots where it all begins in the first place. The lack of considering this only to focus on the top has come to bite the outset of the game overall to move ahead together and develop links top to bottom as normally occurs. It no matter right and wrong before NSL this is the now and past 17yrs. NST will have its hurdles a plenty and to look to build below even more, its a absolute mess trying to move ahead due to all the barriers and motives from one level of admin to another. Mosh pit and a half. A closed comp has been in play longer than the 17 years the A-league has been in place. By and large the NSL was a closed comp as well. The challenges the aleague faces is not due to it being a closed comp. That's just an argument for people with an agenda. The expectations of the NST will practically rule out all NPL clubs. There'll be applicants I have no doubt. But most of them will be dreamers like the west Adelaide and Freo A-league bids back in 2018. An NST can be implemented, but the expectations need to be reduced because it is important to get it up and running. But I don't think the powers that be are that keen to implement it. Regardless of the rhetoric coming from JJ I knew that it was designed to fail. How exactly was it 'designed to fail'? Simple. Build an inflexible model that is unattainable for most clubs. Or just about all clubs from the sounds of it. Why wasn't the model modified to ensure it was within reach for 10-12 clubs? Because where does the money come from? It's all well and good for APL to potentially subsidise it (more) - that might even have been an option if they hadn't squandered all the money - but in the long run there has to be a balance between what the clubs put in, and what the league can put in - which would depend on sponsorship/media interest in the long run. The criteria/model was worked on for a long time and is probably fairly realistic for a semi-pro nation-wide league. Everything has also gotten much more expensive since this concept began life a few years ago - and the financial gap between NPL clubs and A League clubs continues to widen. I'm only a little surprised it hasn't gotten up, but I was banking on it failing after a season or two when some clubs began to struggle. Those who thought we could have P/R to the a league in 5 years time are in lala land - it would be a death sentence for any npl club getting promoted to the a league - especially this season (perhaps with the exception of one or two). There is NO pro/rel to Aleague and never has it been on the table... Financial modelling and criteria where laid out in November last year so not sure what has changed since then economically in your view? I know it hasn't been - I badly wrote my bit because a lot of people on here, in their excitement at the proposal of the NST, have been more or less demanding P/R to the A league in the not too distant future. And this is before it even got off the ground. Point being there's no money... Point being, any money will dry up without P/R asap We've already seen what a Closed Competition with nothing to play for has to resort to try and keep fans awake 
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someguyjc
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+xThat sounds pretty positive But why on earth would a tv deal prefer a cl model over a h and a model Short answer is a CL would be able to be sold to a broadcaster at a far lower price as there would be far fewer games than a regular home/away league. Far easier sell.
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LFC.
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 13K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIn the big picture looking at all this just really shows no matter the good points finally having a Pro comp and more, drew new crowds originally and money a closed comp has been a experiment that has failed the game down to grass roots where it all begins in the first place. The lack of considering this only to focus on the top has come to bite the outset of the game overall to move ahead together and develop links top to bottom as normally occurs. It no matter right and wrong before NSL this is the now and past 17yrs. NST will have its hurdles a plenty and to look to build below even more, its a absolute mess trying to move ahead due to all the barriers and motives from one level of admin to another. Mosh pit and a half. A closed comp has been in play longer than the 17 years the A-league has been in place. By and large the NSL was a closed comp as well. The challenges the aleague faces is not due to it being a closed comp. That's just an argument for people with an agenda. The expectations of the NST will practically rule out all NPL clubs. There'll be applicants I have no doubt. But most of them will be dreamers like the west Adelaide and Freo A-league bids back in 2018. An NST can be implemented, but the expectations need to be reduced because it is important to get it up and running. But I don't think the powers that be are that keen to implement it. Regardless of the rhetoric coming from JJ I knew that it was designed to fail. How exactly was it 'designed to fail'? Simple. Build an inflexible model that is unattainable for most clubs. Or just about all clubs from the sounds of it. Why wasn't the model modified to ensure it was within reach for 10-12 clubs? Because where does the money come from? It's all well and good for APL to potentially subsidise it (more) - that might even have been an option if they hadn't squandered all the money - but in the long run there has to be a balance between what the clubs put in, and what the league can put in - which would depend on sponsorship/media interest in the long run. The criteria/model was worked on for a long time and is probably fairly realistic for a semi-pro nation-wide league. Everything has also gotten much more expensive since this concept began life a few years ago - and the financial gap between NPL clubs and A League clubs continues to widen. I'm only a little surprised it hasn't gotten up, but I was banking on it failing after a season or two when some clubs began to struggle. Those who thought we could have P/R to the a league in 5 years time are in lala land - it would be a death sentence for any npl club getting promoted to the a league - especially this season (perhaps with the exception of one or two). There is NO pro/rel to Aleague and never has it been on the table... Financial modelling and criteria where laid out in November last year so not sure what has changed since then economically in your view? I know it hasn't been - I badly wrote my bit because a lot of people on here, in their excitement at the proposal of the NST, have been more or less demanding P/R to the A league in the not too distant future. And this is before it even got off the ground. Point being there's no money... I don't think many or any been demanding P/R to APL, infact far from it by the regular posters. I sure don't want for it, most have been applauding starting NST and talk of in time setting up below NST so as P/R can evolve all in good time. First and foremost need to see that NST gets going and see how it goes and tweak. The APL being its own entity and all the contractual restraints and agreements involved has to run its own course and see where it ends up........
Love Football
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grazorblade
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 18K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xHe says the Brazilian second tier is state based... I can't seem to find that online. Wiki tells me the top three tiers are national, it's the fourth tier that's state based. I DON'T want to see another knockout-only comp like the NPL Finals. At least have a group/league stage. I suspect that is where we are headed. State NPLs Champions league format at end of the season. (No A-league teams included) This could be the system in place until FA take over APL and then integrate both into one. A champions league format is just as pointless as the knockout comp. Its just for bragging rights, it doesn't achieve anything materially in improving the pathway infrastructure for Australian football. Once again, a proper second tier would be great, I just don't see it happening in this country any time soon, not at a professional level. Not for several decades. Would you accept a semi-pro second tier? Give clubs some minimum standards regarding contracting. But let them determine how "professional" they can go. This is where the compromise on financials needed to occur in my opinion. Yeah resistance to this is where im baffled Is there much resistance, though? I see a lot of "it won't work", but can't say that I've seen "I hope it fails". One is just opinion, the other is bias. Been a few saying they are against it no matter what and a larger cohort saying a high bar or nothing (you can see the breakdown of opinion on the reddit poll) Yeah at the time I only saw the one comment (now two) for option 1, although, it does have a lot of votes. One of the "option 1" comments said they would love it to work but can't see it happening... that's not resistance. And the rest of the 60+ comments are fine and just opinion. Option 2 is for people who think the bar was already set with the eight clubs signing up, and lowering that bar is possibly headed for failure. Option 3 is for people who could accept one or two clubs falling over for the greater good of getting the league going. Option 4 is for people who have no idea about risk and how to run anything and would watch the whole thing go down in a blaze of glory. You'll find them in casinos. Option 5 is for the brainstormers and spitballers haha. It's a good poll with honest answers. It's just opinion, don't take it as "resistance". Real resistance would be APIA wanting to call it off for another 12 months! As i said no one has been a jerk but there does seem to be resistance. Option 5 has a few that were really option 1 when explained. So that was non trivial resistance. I do see option 2 as resistance too since it is a bit weird to me to not want any flexibility at all
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RoyalDave
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 357,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIn the big picture looking at all this just really shows no matter the good points finally having a Pro comp and more, drew new crowds originally and money a closed comp has been a experiment that has failed the game down to grass roots where it all begins in the first place. The lack of considering this only to focus on the top has come to bite the outset of the game overall to move ahead together and develop links top to bottom as normally occurs. It no matter right and wrong before NSL this is the now and past 17yrs. NST will have its hurdles a plenty and to look to build below even more, its a absolute mess trying to move ahead due to all the barriers and motives from one level of admin to another. Mosh pit and a half. A closed comp has been in play longer than the 17 years the A-league has been in place. By and large the NSL was a closed comp as well. The challenges the aleague faces is not due to it being a closed comp. That's just an argument for people with an agenda. The expectations of the NST will practically rule out all NPL clubs. There'll be applicants I have no doubt. But most of them will be dreamers like the west Adelaide and Freo A-league bids back in 2018. An NST can be implemented, but the expectations need to be reduced because it is important to get it up and running. But I don't think the powers that be are that keen to implement it. Regardless of the rhetoric coming from JJ I knew that it was designed to fail. How exactly was it 'designed to fail'? Simple. Build an inflexible model that is unattainable for most clubs. Or just about all clubs from the sounds of it. Why wasn't the model modified to ensure it was within reach for 10-12 clubs? Because where does the money come from? It's all well and good for APL to potentially subsidise it (more) - that might even have been an option if they hadn't squandered all the money - but in the long run there has to be a balance between what the clubs put in, and what the league can put in - which would depend on sponsorship/media interest in the long run. The criteria/model was worked on for a long time and is probably fairly realistic for a semi-pro nation-wide league. Everything has also gotten much more expensive since this concept began life a few years ago - and the financial gap between NPL clubs and A League clubs continues to widen. I'm only a little surprised it hasn't gotten up, but I was banking on it failing after a season or two when some clubs began to struggle. Those who thought we could have P/R to the a league in 5 years time are in lala land - it would be a death sentence for any npl club getting promoted to the a league - especially this season (perhaps with the exception of one or two). There is NO pro/rel to Aleague and never has it been on the table... Financial modelling and criteria where laid out in November last year so not sure what has changed since then economically in your view? I know it hasn't been - I badly wrote my bit because a lot of people on here, in their excitement at the proposal of the NST, have been more or less demanding P/R to the A league in the not too distant future. And this is before it even got off the ground. Point being there's no money...
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HappyGuus
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 189,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+xHe says the Brazilian second tier is state based... I can't seem to find that online. Wiki tells me the top three tiers are national, it's the fourth tier that's state based. I DON'T want to see another knockout-only comp like the NPL Finals. At least have a group/league stage. I suspect that is where we are headed. State NPLs Champions league format at end of the season. (No A-league teams included) This could be the system in place until FA take over APL and then integrate both into one. A champions league format is just as pointless as the knockout comp. Its just for bragging rights, it doesn't achieve anything materially in improving the pathway infrastructure for Australian football. Once again, a proper second tier would be great, I just don't see it happening in this country any time soon, not at a professional level. Not for several decades. Would you accept a semi-pro second tier? Give clubs some minimum standards regarding contracting. But let them determine how "professional" they can go. This is where the compromise on financials needed to occur in my opinion. Yeah resistance to this is where im baffled Is there much resistance, though? I see a lot of "it won't work", but can't say that I've seen "I hope it fails". One is just opinion, the other is bias. Been a few saying they are against it no matter what and a larger cohort saying a high bar or nothing (you can see the breakdown of opinion on the reddit poll) Yeah at the time I only saw the one comment (now two) for option 1, although, it does have a lot of votes. One of the "option 1" comments said they would love it to work but can't see it happening... that's not resistance. And the rest of the 60+ comments are fine and just opinion. Option 2 is for people who think the bar was already set with the eight clubs signing up, and lowering that bar is possibly headed for failure. Option 3 is for people who could accept one or two clubs falling over for the greater good of getting the league going. Option 4 is for people who have no idea about risk and how to run anything and would watch the whole thing go down in a blaze of glory. You'll find them in casinos. Option 5 is for the brainstormers and spitballers haha. It's a good poll with honest answers. It's just opinion, don't take it as "resistance". Real resistance would be APIA wanting to call it off for another 12 months!
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Lupi33
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 197,
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+x+x+x+xHe says the Brazilian second tier is state based... I can't seem to find that online. Wiki tells me the top three tiers are national, it's the fourth tier that's state based. I DON'T want to see another knockout-only comp like the NPL Finals. At least have a group/league stage. I suspect that is where we are headed. State NPLs Champions league format at end of the season. (No A-league teams included) This could be the system in place until FA take over APL and then integrate both into one. A champions league format is just as pointless as the knockout comp. Its just for bragging rights, it doesn't achieve anything materially in improving the pathway infrastructure for Australian football. Once again, a proper second tier would be great, I just don't see it happening in this country any time soon, not at a professional level. Not for several decades. Would you accept a semi-pro second tier? Give clubs some minimum standards regarding contracting. But let them determine how "professional" they can go. This is where the compromise on financials needed to occur in my opinion. It was a model I favoured for a long time but now I think it would be a lot more difficult to be viable in 2025 than 1977. There are a lot more expenses that exist with time and travel and there's less TV money available. That model began failing in the late 90s/00s in any case. eg a club like Adelaide City could no longer afford to participate in the NSL but remains in the NPLSA.
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grazorblade
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 18K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+x+xHe says the Brazilian second tier is state based... I can't seem to find that online. Wiki tells me the top three tiers are national, it's the fourth tier that's state based. I DON'T want to see another knockout-only comp like the NPL Finals. At least have a group/league stage. I suspect that is where we are headed. State NPLs Champions league format at end of the season. (No A-league teams included) This could be the system in place until FA take over APL and then integrate both into one. A champions league format is just as pointless as the knockout comp. Its just for bragging rights, it doesn't achieve anything materially in improving the pathway infrastructure for Australian football. Once again, a proper second tier would be great, I just don't see it happening in this country any time soon, not at a professional level. Not for several decades. Would you accept a semi-pro second tier? Give clubs some minimum standards regarding contracting. But let them determine how "professional" they can go. This is where the compromise on financials needed to occur in my opinion. Yeah resistance to this is where im baffled Is there much resistance, though? I see a lot of "it won't work", but can't say that I've seen "I hope it fails". One is just opinion, the other is bias. Been a few saying they are against it no matter what and a larger cohort saying a high bar or nothing (you can see the breakdown of opinion on the reddit poll)
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HappyGuus
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 189,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+x+xHe says the Brazilian second tier is state based... I can't seem to find that online. Wiki tells me the top three tiers are national, it's the fourth tier that's state based. I DON'T want to see another knockout-only comp like the NPL Finals. At least have a group/league stage. I suspect that is where we are headed. State NPLs Champions league format at end of the season. (No A-league teams included) This could be the system in place until FA take over APL and then integrate both into one. A champions league format is just as pointless as the knockout comp. Its just for bragging rights, it doesn't achieve anything materially in improving the pathway infrastructure for Australian football. Once again, a proper second tier would be great, I just don't see it happening in this country any time soon, not at a professional level. Not for several decades. Would you accept a semi-pro second tier? Give clubs some minimum standards regarding contracting. But let them determine how "professional" they can go. This is where the compromise on financials needed to occur in my opinion. Yeah resistance to this is where im baffled Is there much resistance, though? I see a lot of "it won't work", but can't say that I've seen "I hope it fails". One is just opinion, the other is bias.
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grazorblade
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 18K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+x+xHe says the Brazilian second tier is state based... I can't seem to find that online. Wiki tells me the top three tiers are national, it's the fourth tier that's state based. I DON'T want to see another knockout-only comp like the NPL Finals. At least have a group/league stage. I suspect that is where we are headed. State NPLs Champions league format at end of the season. (No A-league teams included) This could be the system in place until FA take over APL and then integrate both into one. A champions league format is just as pointless as the knockout comp. Its just for bragging rights, it doesn't achieve anything materially in improving the pathway infrastructure for Australian football. Once again, a proper second tier would be great, I just don't see it happening in this country any time soon, not at a professional level. Not for several decades. Would you accept a semi-pro second tier? Give clubs some minimum standards regarding contracting. But let them determine how "professional" they can go. This is where the compromise on financials needed to occur in my opinion. Yeah resistance to this is where im baffled Id love the nst to pay efl wages and the a league to pay epl wages. But if there are clubs that can manage it at their own risk without raising junior costs, what is the harm in just letting do whatever standard they can manage. There is a potential upside of growth with no downside for the fa since they arent covering the cost?
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Butler99
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1K,
Visits: 0
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+x+x+xHe says the Brazilian second tier is state based... I can't seem to find that online. Wiki tells me the top three tiers are national, it's the fourth tier that's state based. I DON'T want to see another knockout-only comp like the NPL Finals. At least have a group/league stage. I suspect that is where we are headed. State NPLs Champions league format at end of the season. (No A-league teams included) This could be the system in place until FA take over APL and then integrate both into one. A champions league format is just as pointless as the knockout comp. Its just for bragging rights, it doesn't achieve anything materially in improving the pathway infrastructure for Australian football. Once again, a proper second tier would be great, I just don't see it happening in this country any time soon, not at a professional level. Not for several decades. Would you accept a semi-pro second tier? Give clubs some minimum standards regarding contracting. But let them determine how "professional" they can go. This is where the compromise on financials needed to occur in my opinion.
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Butler99
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+x+xYou’re the conspiracy theorist, what do you read into it? You seem to have some beef with me. Some unpleasant feelings. Why is that? I'm just stating my opinions. Ones from 18 months ago are rather relevant now. I'll give it a good read and use my superpowers to dissect it. As you eloquently put it, I'll read between the lines. 😊 I don’t have a ‘beef’ with you personally, obviously our opinion of James Johnson differ and that’s fine. We will have to see what transpires in the next few days. That's good. It's all purely my opinion on the information I've gathered. I still want a NST to be in place. I don't think it can be fully professional. Those expectations, along with other requirements blew clubs out of the water. That's where the compromise needed to be. And yes. Let's see what transpires.
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Lupi33
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 197,
Visits: 0
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+x+xHe says the Brazilian second tier is state based... I can't seem to find that online. Wiki tells me the top three tiers are national, it's the fourth tier that's state based. I DON'T want to see another knockout-only comp like the NPL Finals. At least have a group/league stage. I suspect that is where we are headed. State NPLs Champions league format at end of the season. (No A-league teams included) This could be the system in place until FA take over APL and then integrate both into one. A champions league format is just as pointless as the knockout comp. Its just for bragging rights, it doesn't achieve anything materially in improving the pathway infrastructure for Australian football. Once again, a proper second tier would be great, I just don't see it happening in this country any time soon, not at a professional level. Not for several decades.
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grazorblade
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 18K,
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+x+xI made a reddit thread gauging a league fans opinions of the nst as well as a roar article arguing why the nsl did better at youth development (it is less data heavy than i wanted it to be to make it readable but i backed things with evidence where i could) While the comments are kind and polite ive been struck by the remarkable bias against non a league clubs. It reminds me of the polite conversations i have had about universal health care with us republicans. People are remarkably reluctant to credit nsl with anything even though it seems fairly obvious that starting the a league with no junior teams, cutting the number of aussies starting from 154 to 42, cutting the nyl from a home and away season and severely reducing the number of youth internationals should have some effect. On the reddit thread ive been struck by how some dont just want the fa minimum criteria with no flexibility to get it over the line, but would rather no nst at all even with it being at the clubs expense I think ive radically underestimated the level of bias on the a league side of the bitter divide in football and i want to apologize for this blind spot on my behalf! You’re ok mate and nice to see a honest return thanks ! I get picking your side but blinded as they are there says everything how ignorant they are about whole big picture. I understand why nsl bitters were bitter, most would be, the bias from the other side is more a surprise Id watch every nsd and a league game i can coz i love oz football however flawed
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grazorblade
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From twitter "James Johnson was very bullish when I spoke with him today regarding the National Second Division.But he did concede that the format is back open for debate, despite FA last year declaring it would be a H&A, standalone league.Big FA board meeting tomorrow."
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libelous
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 868,
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+x+xYou’re the conspiracy theorist, what do you read into it? You seem to have some beef with me. Some unpleasant feelings. Why is that? I'm just stating my opinions. Ones from 18 months ago are rather relevant now. I'll give it a good read and use my superpowers to dissect it. As you eloquently put it, I'll read between the lines. 😊 I don’t have a ‘beef’ with you personally, obviously our opinion of James Johnson differ and that’s fine. We will have to see what transpires in the next few days.
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grazorblade
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Group: Forum Members
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+xThe governing body has even gone so far as to register a name for the competition – the ‘Australian Championship’ – and has gone to market for a new television deal with the second division as part of its offering, with Johnson also confirming an announcement regarding that deal is imminent. That sounds pretty positive But why on earth would a tv deal prefer a cl model over a h and a model
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numklpkgulftumch
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1.8K,
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIn the big picture looking at all this just really shows no matter the good points finally having a Pro comp and more, drew new crowds originally and money a closed comp has been a experiment that has failed the game down to grass roots where it all begins in the first place. The lack of considering this only to focus on the top has come to bite the outset of the game overall to move ahead together and develop links top to bottom as normally occurs. It no matter right and wrong before NSL this is the now and past 17yrs. NST will have its hurdles a plenty and to look to build below even more, its a absolute mess trying to move ahead due to all the barriers and motives from one level of admin to another. Mosh pit and a half. A closed comp has been in play longer than the 17 years the A-league has been in place. By and large the NSL was a closed comp as well. The challenges the aleague faces is not due to it being a closed comp. That's just an argument for people with an agenda. The expectations of the NST will practically rule out all NPL clubs. There'll be applicants I have no doubt. But most of them will be dreamers like the west Adelaide and Freo A-league bids back in 2018. An NST can be implemented, but the expectations need to be reduced because it is important to get it up and running. But I don't think the powers that be are that keen to implement it. Regardless of the rhetoric coming from JJ As I said here... expectations need to be reduced to get the NST up and running.
I was never against the NST. I knew that it was designed to fail. So you read between the lines long ago the FA/JJ co ordinated and implemented a "vision" (designed to fail) to buy time back then and have predicted or visioned by X year they will press the GO button to free australian football in some new era ? I don't know who to believe today. What exactly are you asking here with this paragraph? I don't think they want an NST. period. And as it seems now, they can't implement a NST if they don't have viable clubs. JJ can pat himself on the back and say "I tried" As I said earlier, I expect FA will take back the A-league. Perhaps integrate a couple of more ambitious clubs. And move on.. Will push the need for an NST further down the road. When JJ won't be around. And this process is a distant memory...
pretty much what you have been quoting, I wasn't asking anything but saying what you have read between the tea leaves. You sourced whatever info you could. The criteria was inflexible and designed to fail. The messiah planned it this way. I still think your happy about it overall. Seeing your posting with confidence, tell us how you see the FA taking back the AL ? I am not happy about it not getting off the ground. With my posts from last year I have repeatedly said I want it to happen. What pisses me off the most is the time wasted on this process, and people in charge at FA not doing what is possible to ensure it works. But clubs should've pushed hard on modifying the model. There is some satisfaction in knowing this all along and it finally getting to the part I said it would. (Almost there) But I wasn't saying it with glee. I was saying it as a warning. Once again, I hope I'm wrong. Hopefully it's only a bump in the road FA taking back the APL. No tv deal for standalone APL when current broadcast rights end. Will need to come back under FA. 3 years tops. Your disdain for Football Australia, James Johnson in particular, is apparent in all of your post, perhaps you could enlighten me as to why you feel this way. I find Johnson to be methodical and risk-averse, this approach means that actions and decisions take some time to be reached. You may be right and it will all come to nought but I don’t think you can accuse him of being anything other than prudent. Yeah im curious too. Apart from jj allegedly missing a meeting last week ive interpreted him as sincere but a bit inflexible. There seems to be other explanations 1) maybe jj saw the usa second teir and took some features there as inspiration 2) maybe the pfa put pressure for the model to be expensive as they had unrealistic wage demands 3) maybe he just was stubborn coz he thought there was no point having an nst that fell below a certain criteria. 4) maybe even if jj doesnt want an nst now, he might have due to the fa and apl split, but now the apl want the fa at least partially back he is losing interest 1. Yes. USA 2nd tier is one to look at. But I believe that didn't start fully pro. It evolved. 2.yes. PFA would be unrealistic and demanding. JJs relationship with BB may have kept this in place. 3. If that's the case, it should've been spelt out from day one. 4. Possible. But the APL have been struggling for a couple of years. FA is a stakeholder, so they will know the financial plight of the APL Im pretty sure he did mate... A nationwide club licensing standard is one of the core XI principles they have been going on about for ages isnt it? Im curious how the us second teir started? If we imitated their model heavily it would explain some of the decisions. Did they have some licensing standard USL is a RIVAL franchise league (that happens to have 3 leagues recently with pro/rel partially between them) nothing at all to do with football.. just some crappy US franchise thing.. they are trying to knock off the MLS as the best league in that country.... Irregardless there is precedent for oz to look at the us as a model and im wondering if the fa wanted a usl and tried to immitate its format (putting aside the downsides of the usl system!) Thats exaclty what the APL is proposing as pro/rel though. Expand the A leagues to 20 x clubs, split into two division and then have pro/rel between ONLY them..... Never seen that proposal , any idea where I can find it ? https://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/the-plan-to-embrace-promotion-and-relegation-in-the-a-league-20230516-p5d8qj.htmlA-League clubs have been presented with "a plan to facilitate a system of promotion -- and, eventually, relegation -- which would see the best clubs from Football Australia’s proposed national second division slowly introduced to the top tier." Club execs were recently briefed on the blueprint, conceived by the Australian Professional Leagues, which "closely mirrors the way Japan’s J.League grew from one professional division to three over of 21 years." According to sources, the APL told the clubs they were prepared to "admit the strongest teams from the second division into the men’s A-League on an ongoing basis" -- provided those clubs were able to satisfy a set of strict criteria to prove their financial stability. There would be no limit to the number of clubs that could be promoted, but once it reaches a certain number of teams, most likely around 20, the A-League would then split into two leagues -- tentatively called A1-League and A2-League ( SYDNEY MORNING HERALD, 4/26). Oh , that thing APL aren't actually proposing it My take Someone on their (then) over heavy payroll has done up a powerpoint to try and justify their employment, then fed the story to Rugari via someone else in their media department.
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Butler99
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+xHe says the Brazilian second tier is state based... I can't seem to find that online. Wiki tells me the top three tiers are national, it's the fourth tier that's state based. I DON'T want to see another knockout-only comp like the NPL Finals. At least have a group/league stage. I suspect that is where we are headed. State NPLs Champions league format at end of the season. (No A-league teams included) This could be the system in place until FA take over APL and then integrate both into one.
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grazorblade
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+xHe says the Brazilian second tier is state based... I can't seem to find that online. Wiki tells me the top three tiers are national, it's the fourth tier that's state based. I DON'T want to see another knockout-only comp like the NPL Finals. At least have a group/league stage. Even then with a skinny time line to home and away
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LFC.
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+xI made a reddit thread gauging a league fans opinions of the nst as well as a roar article arguing why the nsl did better at youth development (it is less data heavy than i wanted it to be to make it readable but i backed things with evidence where i could) While the comments are kind and polite ive been struck by the remarkable bias against non a league clubs. It reminds me of the polite conversations i have had about universal health care with us republicans. People are remarkably reluctant to credit nsl with anything even though it seems fairly obvious that starting the a league with no junior teams, cutting the number of aussies starting from 154 to 42, cutting the nyl from a home and away season and severely reducing the number of youth internationals should have some effect. On the reddit thread ive been struck by how some dont just want the fa minimum criteria with no flexibility to get it over the line, but would rather no nst at all even with it being at the clubs expense I think ive radically underestimated the level of bias on the a league side of the bitter divide in football and i want to apologize for this blind spot on my behalf! You’re ok mate and nice to see a honest return thanks ! I get picking your side but blinded as they are there says everything how ignorant they are about whole big picture.
Love Football
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Monoethnic Social Club
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The governing body has even gone so far as to register a name for the competition – the ‘Australian Championship’ – and has gone to market for a new television deal with the second division as part of its offering, with Johnson also confirming an announcement regarding that deal is imminent.
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HappyGuus
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He says the Brazilian second tier is state based... I can't seem to find that online. Wiki tells me the top three tiers are national, it's the fourth tier that's state based. I DON'T want to see another knockout-only comp like the NPL Finals. At least have a group/league stage.
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Butler99
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+xYou’re the conspiracy theorist, what do you read into it? You seem to have some beef with me. Some unpleasant feelings. Why is that? I'm just stating my opinions. Ones from 18 months ago are rather relevant now. I'll give it a good read and use my superpowers to dissect it. As you eloquently put it, I'll read between the lines. 😊
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Lupi33
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+x+x+x+xThere's barely enough funds available to keep the A-league afloat its very unlikely Australia could support another professional football league. The NST clubs have survived 20 years in the wilderness. Suddenly deciding they are dependant on the APL's fortunes isn't fair. However if the FA transfer their NST budget to rescuing the Millionaires plaything, that dependancy may be created They've survived paying semi pro wages and not having to travel interstate. A player base who have day jobs. I get what you are saying, but if rumours are true that fa demand a minimum player budget deposit and liscence fee, why not be flexible on that? Of course if they are being flexible and the clubs cant meet even travel costs without raising junior fees then that is a different story. But in principle if the clubs are willing to play a national comp at their own expense are you opposed? I'm not opposed, I just don't think its realistic.
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+x+xThere's barely enough funds available to keep the A-league afloat its very unlikely Australia could support another professional football league. The NST clubs have survived 20 years in the wilderness. Suddenly deciding they are dependant on the APL's fortunes isn't fair. However if the FA transfer their NST budget to rescuing the Millionaires plaything, that dependancy may be created They've survived paying semi pro wages and not having to travel interstate. A player base who have day jobs. Thats why most of the brave 8 clubs are busy promoting youth players form their own nurseries and looking for talented youngsters from other APL clubs (even poaching from Aleague academies)... First few years will be VERY young squads - who DONT have day jobs....
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grazorblade
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+x+x+xThere's barely enough funds available to keep the A-league afloat its very unlikely Australia could support another professional football league. The NST clubs have survived 20 years in the wilderness. Suddenly deciding they are dependant on the APL's fortunes isn't fair. However if the FA transfer their NST budget to rescuing the Millionaires plaything, that dependancy may be created They've survived paying semi pro wages and not having to travel interstate. A player base who have day jobs. I get what you are saying, but if rumours are true that fa demand a minimum player budget deposit and liscence fee, why not be flexible on that? Of course if they are being flexible and the clubs cant meet even travel costs without raising junior fees then that is a different story. But in principle if the clubs are willing to play a national comp at their own expense are you opposed?
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Monoethnic Social Club
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIn the big picture looking at all this just really shows no matter the good points finally having a Pro comp and more, drew new crowds originally and money a closed comp has been a experiment that has failed the game down to grass roots where it all begins in the first place. The lack of considering this only to focus on the top has come to bite the outset of the game overall to move ahead together and develop links top to bottom as normally occurs. It no matter right and wrong before NSL this is the now and past 17yrs. NST will have its hurdles a plenty and to look to build below even more, its a absolute mess trying to move ahead due to all the barriers and motives from one level of admin to another. Mosh pit and a half. A closed comp has been in play longer than the 17 years the A-league has been in place. By and large the NSL was a closed comp as well. The challenges the aleague faces is not due to it being a closed comp. That's just an argument for people with an agenda. The expectations of the NST will practically rule out all NPL clubs. There'll be applicants I have no doubt. But most of them will be dreamers like the west Adelaide and Freo A-league bids back in 2018. An NST can be implemented, but the expectations need to be reduced because it is important to get it up and running. But I don't think the powers that be are that keen to implement it. Regardless of the rhetoric coming from JJ As I said here... expectations need to be reduced to get the NST up and running.
I was never against the NST. I knew that it was designed to fail. So you read between the lines long ago the FA/JJ co ordinated and implemented a "vision" (designed to fail) to buy time back then and have predicted or visioned by X year they will press the GO button to free australian football in some new era ? I don't know who to believe today. What exactly are you asking here with this paragraph? I don't think they want an NST. period. And as it seems now, they can't implement a NST if they don't have viable clubs. JJ can pat himself on the back and say "I tried" As I said earlier, I expect FA will take back the A-league. Perhaps integrate a couple of more ambitious clubs. And move on.. Will push the need for an NST further down the road. When JJ won't be around. And this process is a distant memory...
pretty much what you have been quoting, I wasn't asking anything but saying what you have read between the tea leaves. You sourced whatever info you could. The criteria was inflexible and designed to fail. The messiah planned it this way. I still think your happy about it overall. Seeing your posting with confidence, tell us how you see the FA taking back the AL ? I am not happy about it not getting off the ground. With my posts from last year I have repeatedly said I want it to happen. What pisses me off the most is the time wasted on this process, and people in charge at FA not doing what is possible to ensure it works. But clubs should've pushed hard on modifying the model. There is some satisfaction in knowing this all along and it finally getting to the part I said it would. (Almost there) But I wasn't saying it with glee. I was saying it as a warning. Once again, I hope I'm wrong. Hopefully it's only a bump in the road FA taking back the APL. No tv deal for standalone APL when current broadcast rights end. Will need to come back under FA. 3 years tops. Your disdain for Football Australia, James Johnson in particular, is apparent in all of your post, perhaps you could enlighten me as to why you feel this way. I find Johnson to be methodical and risk-averse, this approach means that actions and decisions take some time to be reached. You may be right and it will all come to nought but I don’t think you can accuse him of being anything other than prudent. Yeah im curious too. Apart from jj allegedly missing a meeting last week ive interpreted him as sincere but a bit inflexible. There seems to be other explanations 1) maybe jj saw the usa second teir and took some features there as inspiration 2) maybe the pfa put pressure for the model to be expensive as they had unrealistic wage demands 3) maybe he just was stubborn coz he thought there was no point having an nst that fell below a certain criteria. 4) maybe even if jj doesnt want an nst now, he might have due to the fa and apl split, but now the apl want the fa at least partially back he is losing interest 1. Yes. USA 2nd tier is one to look at. But I believe that didn't start fully pro. It evolved. 2.yes. PFA would be unrealistic and demanding. JJs relationship with BB may have kept this in place. 3. If that's the case, it should've been spelt out from day one. 4. Possible. But the APL have been struggling for a couple of years. FA is a stakeholder, so they will know the financial plight of the APL Im pretty sure he did mate... A nationwide club licensing standard is one of the core XI principles they have been going on about for ages isnt it? Im curious how the us second teir started? If we imitated their model heavily it would explain some of the decisions. Did they have some licensing standard USL is a RIVAL franchise league (that happens to have 3 leagues recently with pro/rel partially between them) nothing at all to do with football.. just some crappy US franchise thing.. they are trying to knock off the MLS as the best league in that country.... Irregardless there is precedent for oz to look at the us as a model and im wondering if the fa wanted a usl and tried to immitate its format (putting aside the downsides of the usl system!) Thats exaclty what the APL is proposing as pro/rel though. Expand the A leagues to 20 x clubs, split into two division and then have pro/rel between ONLY them..... Never seen that proposal , any idea where I can find it ? https://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/the-plan-to-embrace-promotion-and-relegation-in-the-a-league-20230516-p5d8qj.htmlA-League clubs have been presented with "a plan to facilitate a system of promotion -- and, eventually, relegation -- which would see the best clubs from Football Australia’s proposed national second division slowly introduced to the top tier." Club execs were recently briefed on the blueprint, conceived by the Australian Professional Leagues, which "closely mirrors the way Japan’s J.League grew from one professional division to three over of 21 years." According to sources, the APL told the clubs they were prepared to "admit the strongest teams from the second division into the men’s A-League on an ongoing basis" -- provided those clubs were able to satisfy a set of strict criteria to prove their financial stability. There would be no limit to the number of clubs that could be promoted, but once it reaches a certain number of teams, most likely around 20, the A-League would then split into two leagues -- tentatively called A1-League and A2-League ( SYDNEY MORNING HERALD, 4/26).
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Lupi33
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+x+xThere's barely enough funds available to keep the A-league afloat its very unlikely Australia could support another professional football league. The NST clubs have survived 20 years in the wilderness. Suddenly deciding they are dependant on the APL's fortunes isn't fair. However if the FA transfer their NST budget to rescuing the Millionaires plaything, that dependancy may be created They've survived paying semi pro wages and not having to travel interstate. A player base who have day jobs.
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grazorblade
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+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+x+xIn the big picture looking at all this just really shows no matter the good points finally having a Pro comp and more, drew new crowds originally and money a closed comp has been a experiment that has failed the game down to grass roots where it all begins in the first place. The lack of considering this only to focus on the top has come to bite the outset of the game overall to move ahead together and develop links top to bottom as normally occurs. It no matter right and wrong before NSL this is the now and past 17yrs. NST will have its hurdles a plenty and to look to build below even more, its a absolute mess trying to move ahead due to all the barriers and motives from one level of admin to another. Mosh pit and a half. A closed comp has been in play longer than the 17 years the A-league has been in place. By and large the NSL was a closed comp as well. The challenges the aleague faces is not due to it being a closed comp. That's just an argument for people with an agenda. The expectations of the NST will practically rule out all NPL clubs. There'll be applicants I have no doubt. But most of them will be dreamers like the west Adelaide and Freo A-league bids back in 2018. An NST can be implemented, but the expectations need to be reduced because it is important to get it up and running. But I don't think the powers that be are that keen to implement it. Regardless of the rhetoric coming from JJ As I said here... expectations need to be reduced to get the NST up and running.
I was never against the NST. I knew that it was designed to fail. So you read between the lines long ago the FA/JJ co ordinated and implemented a "vision" (designed to fail) to buy time back then and have predicted or visioned by X year they will press the GO button to free australian football in some new era ? I don't know who to believe today. What exactly are you asking here with this paragraph? I don't think they want an NST. period. And as it seems now, they can't implement a NST if they don't have viable clubs. JJ can pat himself on the back and say "I tried" As I said earlier, I expect FA will take back the A-league. Perhaps integrate a couple of more ambitious clubs. And move on.. Will push the need for an NST further down the road. When JJ won't be around. And this process is a distant memory...
pretty much what you have been quoting, I wasn't asking anything but saying what you have read between the tea leaves. You sourced whatever info you could. The criteria was inflexible and designed to fail. The messiah planned it this way. I still think your happy about it overall. Seeing your posting with confidence, tell us how you see the FA taking back the AL ? I am not happy about it not getting off the ground. With my posts from last year I have repeatedly said I want it to happen. What pisses me off the most is the time wasted on this process, and people in charge at FA not doing what is possible to ensure it works. But clubs should've pushed hard on modifying the model. There is some satisfaction in knowing this all along and it finally getting to the part I said it would. (Almost there) But I wasn't saying it with glee. I was saying it as a warning. Once again, I hope I'm wrong. Hopefully it's only a bump in the road FA taking back the APL. No tv deal for standalone APL when current broadcast rights end. Will need to come back under FA. 3 years tops. Your disdain for Football Australia, James Johnson in particular, is apparent in all of your post, perhaps you could enlighten me as to why you feel this way. I find Johnson to be methodical and risk-averse, this approach means that actions and decisions take some time to be reached. You may be right and it will all come to nought but I don’t think you can accuse him of being anything other than prudent. I don't have disdain for FA or JJ. I just didn't trust them running this process when I started seeing the expected model and lack of flexibility. My starting position for most of these CEO types in football/sports is extremely sceptical and people only in it for themselves. From there, my respect for them is to be earnt through actions. Not words. I don't start with a messiah has arrived opinion only to be disappointed. If this process has been scuppered and put on the backburner then my fears have been justified. If it goes ahead in 2025 then he will have my respect. I've seen many of these CEO types get involved in our code and other sports, only for their own benefit. DT immediately comes to mind. I am happy to be proven wrong with JJ. But the jury is still out. Perfectly reasonable position to take and you have every right to be sceptical.... I agree the jury is well and truly out... lets wait till something comes from FA though before we jump on every APL shill's "breaking news story" though eh? Yes. Indeed. Eagerly awaiting comment from JJ on this. A statement needs to be made. I fear, The APL fan boys will have their tails between their legs in the not too distant future. Whats your prediction regarding the apl? As I said earlier. These next 2 years will fly under APL banner. While they still have broadcast deal with P+ If things don't improve significantly, then I'd expect FA to take back the league. I don't expect things to improve significantly. I won't be surprised if 1 or 2 clubs collapse by the end of this tv deal. If the fa take over there is less incentive to have an nst as the fa would have incentives to protect their most valuable assett. If they are already not as committed as we would like, this window is urgent for getting a nst up and running
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