Mister Football
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Professional football teams need to be based in large population centres.
The Gold Coast is the largest population centre not represented by an A-League club, and Queensland is the next biggest state without more than one team.
So logically, A-League expansion needs to look at Queensland, the Gold Coast in particular.
The FFA should base its next expansion program around Queensland - that's the key.
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GGfortythree
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Canberra and Tasmania/Northern Fury should next (although southern cross should've gotten the 2nd Melbourne licence.
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ThrylosG7
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paulc wrote:There are only two clear front runners.
Canberra due to its larger population base, and therefore ripe for providing the best ratings and more TV money.
The second is Townsville mainly due to its geographical location essential for talented youth to have a club up north covering the top third of Australia on the eastern seaboard.
Clubs with any association with a mono ethnic regime like South Melbourne Hellas should not even be considered. Are we still that xenophobic in 2012 that an AUTRALIAN football team started by migrants is frowned upon?? man get over it already - this has happened in countries all over the world - Clubs created by British people who were in a forign country far from home and wanted to start a club so they can play a game from home that they missed against *gasp* other teams started by other immigrants who may have been from Italy etc.. WTF is mono ethnic regime mean anyway ?? Did the club only play players from one background ?? You are an idiot...
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Timmo
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Firstly to the moderators might be a good idea to put this thread as sticky because its always going to come up.
The issue with further expansion is ownership and its not like owners are scrambling to look at investing in any of the current franchises then starting new ones.
I probably see Canberra and the South Coast NSW as the next two teams. At least south of Sydney will be covered. they will have the stadiums. Win Stadium once completed the redevelopment will look good for Football and the new canberra stadium will be good to. Canberra benefits from having a women's team already plus we can scrap the AIS youth program as Canberra can take their spot anyway. It will be good for the current NSW based sides to be in reasonable distance for away games and build that neighbouring rivalry which has seen a revival this year with the addition of the wanderers.
Tasmania is still a while off, they lack a football specific stadium which will be a pain later down the track. Plus I don't know if Melbourne Victory long term presence there will hinder the apple isle having their own team.
Queensland will get more teams eventually in time and the way in particular Northern Fury and Sunshine Coast Fire are going about their business its only a matter of when rather then never again.
for Me Canberra United and South Coast Steel will be the next two teams.
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paladisious
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Viper 0 wrote:Setting up team in NZ would be interesting giving geographical proximity and size of NZ economy
(Only if NZ football assosiation wants it) It's more about whether the AFC allows it.
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Viper 0
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You guys need 2nd division, if you don't have one.
2nd division makes 1st division serious place and it gives opportunities for young players to gain game time.
Former Man United Park spend whole year in J2, so is Kagawa.
Honda also spend a year in Netherland 2nd division.
Setting up team in NZ would be interesting giving geographical proximity and size of NZ economy
(Only if NZ football assosiation wants it)
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Tom AUFC
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Any expansion needs to be unwritten by the TV deal to follow the one just signed. We can't afford to have any expansion teams folding again - owners of any new clubs need to have as much financial support as possible. A key component of the criteria for any new licences handed out should be the quality of the stadium deal. Apparently the Gold Coast mayor is supportive of a new A-League team on the Gold Coast, so let him and his friends in the government put their money where their mouths are.
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paulc
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There are only two clear front runners. Canberra due to its larger population base, and therefore ripe for providing the best ratings and more TV money. The second is Townsville mainly due to its geographical location essential for talented youth to have a club up north covering the top third of Australia on the eastern seaboard. Clubs with any association with a mono ethnic regime like South Melbourne Hellas should not even be considered.
In a resort somewhere
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Glory Recruit
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Also Canberra did have the most advanced bid by the time gcu folded. As someone said earlier in the thread, the most likely expansion teams with maybe the exception of Townsville will be close to already established clubs, which will be good for attendances in that region and atmospheres.
Edited by aussie4ever4: 31/12/2012 03:07:07 AM
Edited by aussie4ever4: 31/12/2012 03:10:45 AM
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tbitm
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I see a trend that everyone seems to agree that Canberra should be the next team I agree to this as well for many reasons High population growth. If the A-League does expand to Canberra in 2016 it will have a population of 440,000 and 590,000 by 2031 (by todays estimates) which is currently larger than Newcastle's population today (540,000) and they are doing quite well when it comes to attendances. The A-Leagues popularity will be at its highest in Canberra (and in Australia especially if Australia do well) around this time as they have an Asian cup venue so it seems like it would be the best time to capitalise os the situation. And finally Canberra is expecting to be getting a brand new "Forsyth Barr" esqe stadium with a full clear roof near the CBD by 2020 but are wanting to get it up and running by 2018/19. And heres some reading on that if any of you are interested. http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/city-promised-new-stadium-with-roof-by-2020-20120302-1u8si.htmlhttp://blogs.crikey.com.au/next-act/2012/10/18/new-stadium-canberra/http://www.canberratimes.com.au/act-news/no-new-city-stadium-under-canberra-liberals-20121010-27cha.html
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Red_or_Dead
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Heineken wrote:Red_or_Dead wrote:Heineken wrote:Excellent OP. I thought this was going to be one of those threads where the same argument is thrown around like a tumble dryer with no meaningful results. Good way to kick off some meaningful discussion.
I'll throw in my 5c which I've voiced in the trillions of meaningless threads over the years.
I find it pretty disappointing that our nations capital (despite what people may think of the place as an actual location) was not in the initial 8 teams. Quite frankly (and I don't want to start flame wars here!) but we could have done without the NZ Knights in the opening years, and had a Canberra team to kick start the league off. If anything, I believe the relative success of the W-League Canberra franchise has paved the way to prove that the ACT, or Canberra could have an extremely sucessful supporter base, and draw crowds no just from within the ACT, but from populated locations as far away as Thredbo/Perisher, Goulburn and the like.
In my honest opinion, the next expansion MUST be to our nations capital. To me it's just pretty poor form we don't have one already.
After that throw a dog a bone to a Tasmanian franchise. The real difficulty there is the location. Pop it in Launceston, and Hobartians will be upset - and vice versa. Unless you called the franchise after the state - i.e. Tasmanian Loggers United - and play half their games in Hobart and the other half in Launceston. The only real thing I think holding a Tasmanian franchise back, short of investors, is a rectangular ground. Whilst as picturesque as Aurora Park and Bellrieve Oval may be - being ovals isn't exactly great footballing infrastructure, especially as Bellrieve has a full time cricket pitch smack bang in the middle of it. Could it work? I guess you don't know until you've tried it. The Sydney FC vs Adelaide United fixtures @ the Adelaide Oval didn't turn out too badly, IIRC. They got healthy attendances to both fixtures and I can't remember the cricket pitch interfering too much with the general style and flow of play.
The retangular park and stadium I think is the one thing Canberra has in favour over a A-League spot at the expense of Tasmania - playing out of Canberra Stadium is fine. Perfect size ground. 20k. I agree that Canberra should be the next team into the A-League - whether they amalgamate with the W-League team and call themselves Canberra United or Canberra Cosmonauts (or whatever) is up to them. We have to keep the expansions in two in my opinion. Adding Heart alone to have 11 teams 3 seasons ago was a complete shemozzle and in fact probably worked against both Heart and NQF. The team to come in with Canberra should be Tasmania! Maybe instead of Loggers though we can call them Tasmania Timbers FC? This also avoids another "United". Out of the 16 (or 17) home games you'd want 6 of them played in Launceston and 10 in Hobart, maybe with a regional game in Devonport (Burnie's probably too small and only 47km from Devonport). In Hobart I don't think they can play out of Bellerive Oval because the Hobart Hurricanes use it for BBL and the schedule would clash. Having said that, Cricket Tasmania just announced a $30m upgrade to Blundstone Arena to be finished August-September 2014 to take seating from 15k to 20k! This stadium can be used (outside of BBL schedule) for bigger games, i.e. against Victory, Sydney FC, Adelaide!? So, that means for the rest of the games they'll have to built a rectangular stadium or play in an existing smaller stadium, which may just require some extra 'temp' seating and a TV tower upgrade to meet Fox Sports' standards. Timbers would be a good name for them, I agree. They would maybe be able to set up a support-network/sister-club relationship with say the Portland Timbers in the MLS. Have player swaps/pre-season friendly tours, and sell each others merchandise. (Although the latter probably wouldn't exactly kick off) I agree though, I think the #1 thing holding back a potential Tasmanian bid is their lack of rectangular ground infrastructure. Unless they can get some big mining/logging company to sponser them, take them right under their wing and build them a boutique 15k stadium, I think they'll struggle for a successful bid. AFAIA - the Tasmanian Government is pro-AFL and would probably never support the building of a rectangular stadium. Certainly can't see them putting too much cash - if any at all - towards a plan. Yep, I was thinking of Portland when I thought of "Tasmania Timbers", but having said all that, I don't think Tasmania they'll come through with the goods in good time and there are other places making much more noise at the moment. So this is how I see the next expansion going in 2017/18. I'd love it to be earlier, but I'm putting this in line with the next TV deal: 11. Canberra United (Already have a stadium and a W-League side) 12. Northern Fury FC (Re-branded to better represent NQ and NT. Could spread games between Townsville: 9, Cairns: 5, Darwin: 2, "Regional match": Mackay) Once the global economy picks up we won't have to wait for the next TV deal so two years on in 2019/20: 13. Illawarra Wolves (Don't like 'South Coast', too many "Coastal" teams! hehe) 14. Tasmania Timbers FC Then finally to cap off 16 teams, a new TV deal and gear up for an extremely hot World Cup in 2021/22 15. Auckland United FC (Co-contribution of Auckland City FC and Waitakere United) 16. Greater Geelong FC (By then Heart would've grown enough to not be impacted by Geelong's entry)
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Roar_Brisbane
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I really hope areas that can significantly help player development is considered in expansion. Teams in NQld, Canberra and Tasmania would create clearer pathways for youth.
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jparraga
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Don't mean to be pessimistic but reading all this can't help but get the feeling that any HAL expansion is at least 5-10 years away from being viable and similar for any notion of an FFA cup. In saying that consolidation is not a bad thing.
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Roar_Brisbane
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paladisious wrote:Roar_Brisbane wrote:jparraga wrote:Roar_Brisbane wrote:Considering how conservative Gallop was to expansion in the NRL I can't see him having any expansion while he is in charge. So how long is his tenure? pretty different circumstance though? Yeah it is different, but Gallop has always been known for being conservative. If we don't expand until after 2015 hopefully we will see the FFA cup soon. The Victory Chairman and General Manager told us at the member's meeting the other week that there will absolutely definitely not be an FFA Cup in the short to medium term, presumably the term of the upcoming TV deal. I really hope they are working on it. It's been in the melting pot for quite some time and we've seen nothing so far.
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AJohn
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I don't think Dunedin is a good place for expansion, purely because around December the crowds will diminish significantly s Uni students head home.
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tbitm
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Aussie4ever4 wrote:Ty for the support guys i appreciate it:) no worries. its no secret the people on this forum love talking expansion. But if i have to be honest i would categorise it a bit differently with Geelong, Tasmania, South melbourne and 3rd sydney (lets not talk 4th just yet) in the others as they all are 1 step away from being a real front runner imo. Geelong are a sports mad city so it doesn't surprise me that they got one of the highest attendances for a pre-season game. However, i don't believe geelong should be given a team if they are going to play out of simmonds stadium. Its way too big and an oval so a proper football stadium similar to hindmarsh is a must imo. It is also important to add that there have been talks about doing this if geelong are given a licence. Tasmania, very similar to Geelong in that they are sports mad and they are an untapped market but they are much like geelong to me in that i don't want them in if there isn't a proper football stadium in place there. South melbourne won't be given a team until heart pull good crowds every week (>10k) which i believe is just a true marquee player or a championship away which then south melbourne would be seen as a strong favourite for the next team 3rd sydney will be given a team once west sydney also start pulling good (>12k)* which i think they are probably just a couple seasons away from doing and if sydney are able to continue getting >16k even when del piero retires *the reason i think ws should get 12k instead of 10k like i put for heart is because i believe the next sydney team will be a penerith or campelltown team which will take supporters away from them and not so much sfc and don't even bother having Darwin, Duniden, Ipswitch, Cairns, Toowoomba, Hamilton, Gippsland, Mackay, Mandurah, Ballarat, Bendigo, Rockhampton, Albury-Wodonga, Burnie – Devonport, Bunbury, Bundaberg, Tauranga, Palmerston North and Napier as there are too many other better candidates. These places can be discussed when a 2nd division (not necessarily pro/rel) props up.
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Roar_Brisbane
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Heineken wrote:playmaker11 wrote:Townsville really needs a stadium with adequate cover. One hint of rain before kick-off (summer = monsoon) and the crowd is screwed for the match. Cowboys don't have this problem as rain is almost non-existent in winter. I'd maybe like to see Canberra given a look in. Honestly don't see this happening. Given the Fury never looked like getting sellouts, and the biggest draw card for Cowboys home games is against Brisbane Broncos - and even that rarely sells out I can't see the Government or the owners of the stadium putting any money forward for expansion and/or re-development. The Newman won't be opening up their wallets that's for sure.
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Glory Recruit
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ThrylosG7 wrote:I'm sorry but i dont think that one off games at any venue should be used to determine possible venues.
The crowd figures wernt ment to be a justification for a team to enter the A-league, although it does help there cause. /////// I wouldnt have a problem with having smaller teams in the league would small crowds(around 5k), as long as that team represents an area and they're doing everything they can to ensure good crowds(unlike GCU and Palmer). Smaller teams though need better stadium deals so they dont need big crowds and end up folding. Extra TV money would help smaller clubs cover the salary cap and help them remain competitive. We do need our big city clubs pulling though. idk if what i just said made any sense. Edited by aussie4ever4: 31/12/2012 01:56:05 AM
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paladisious
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Roar_Brisbane wrote:jparraga wrote:Roar_Brisbane wrote:Considering how conservative Gallop was to expansion in the NRL I can't see him having any expansion while he is in charge. So how long is his tenure? pretty different circumstance though? Yeah it is different, but Gallop has always been known for being conservative. If we don't expand until after 2015 hopefully we will see the FFA cup soon. The Victory Chairman and General Manager told us at the member's meeting the other week that there will absolutely definitely not be an FFA Cup in the short to medium term, presumably the term of the upcoming TV deal.
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Heineken
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playmaker11 wrote:Townsville really needs a stadium with adequate cover. One hint of rain before kick-off (summer = monsoon) and the crowd is screwed for the match. Cowboys don't have this problem as rain is almost non-existent in winter. I'd maybe like to see Canberra given a look in. Honestly don't see this happening. Given the Fury never looked like getting sellouts, and the biggest draw card for Cowboys home games is against Brisbane Broncos - and even that rarely sells out I can't see the Government or the owners of the stadium putting any money forward for expansion and/or re-development.
WOLLONGONG WOLVES FOR A-LEAGUE EXPANSION!
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Roar_Brisbane
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jparraga wrote:Roar_Brisbane wrote:Considering how conservative Gallop was to expansion in the NRL I can't see him having any expansion while he is in charge. So how long is his tenure? pretty different circumstance though? Yeah it is different, but Gallop has always been known for being conservative. If we don't expand until after 2015 hopefully we will see the FFA cup soon.
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Heineken
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Red_or_Dead wrote:Heineken wrote:Excellent OP. I thought this was going to be one of those threads where the same argument is thrown around like a tumble dryer with no meaningful results. Good way to kick off some meaningful discussion.
I'll throw in my 5c which I've voiced in the trillions of meaningless threads over the years.
I find it pretty disappointing that our nations capital (despite what people may think of the place as an actual location) was not in the initial 8 teams. Quite frankly (and I don't want to start flame wars here!) but we could have done without the NZ Knights in the opening years, and had a Canberra team to kick start the league off. If anything, I believe the relative success of the W-League Canberra franchise has paved the way to prove that the ACT, or Canberra could have an extremely sucessful supporter base, and draw crowds no just from within the ACT, but from populated locations as far away as Thredbo/Perisher, Goulburn and the like.
In my honest opinion, the next expansion MUST be to our nations capital. To me it's just pretty poor form we don't have one already.
After that throw a dog a bone to a Tasmanian franchise. The real difficulty there is the location. Pop it in Launceston, and Hobartians will be upset - and vice versa. Unless you called the franchise after the state - i.e. Tasmanian Loggers United - and play half their games in Hobart and the other half in Launceston. The only real thing I think holding a Tasmanian franchise back, short of investors, is a rectangular ground. Whilst as picturesque as Aurora Park and Bellrieve Oval may be - being ovals isn't exactly great footballing infrastructure, especially as Bellrieve has a full time cricket pitch smack bang in the middle of it. Could it work? I guess you don't know until you've tried it. The Sydney FC vs Adelaide United fixtures @ the Adelaide Oval didn't turn out too badly, IIRC. They got healthy attendances to both fixtures and I can't remember the cricket pitch interfering too much with the general style and flow of play.
The retangular park and stadium I think is the one thing Canberra has in favour over a A-League spot at the expense of Tasmania - playing out of Canberra Stadium is fine. Perfect size ground. 20k. I agree that Canberra should be the next team into the A-League - whether they amalgamate with the W-League team and call themselves Canberra United or Canberra Cosmonauts (or whatever) is up to them. We have to keep the expansions in two in my opinion. Adding Heart alone to have 11 teams 3 seasons ago was a complete shemozzle and in fact probably worked against both Heart and NQF. The team to come in with Canberra should be Tasmania! Maybe instead of Loggers though we can call them Tasmania Timbers FC? This also avoids another "United". Out of the 16 (or 17) home games you'd want 6 of them played in Launceston and 10 in Hobart, maybe with a regional game in Devonport (Burnie's probably too small and only 47km from Devonport). In Hobart I don't think they can play out of Bellerive Oval because the Hobart Hurricanes use it for BBL and the schedule would clash. Having said that, Cricket Tasmania just announced a $30m upgrade to Blundstone Arena to be finished August-September 2014 to take seating from 15k to 20k! This stadium can be used (outside of BBL schedule) for bigger games, i.e. against Victory, Sydney FC, Adelaide!? So, that means for the rest of the games they'll have to built a rectangular stadium or play in an existing smaller stadium, which may just require some extra 'temp' seating and a TV tower upgrade to meet Fox Sports' standards. Timbers would be a good name for them, I agree. They would maybe be able to set up a support-network/sister-club relationship with say the Portland Timbers in the MLS. Have player swaps/pre-season friendly tours, and sell each others merchandise. (Although the latter probably wouldn't exactly kick off) I agree though, I think the #1 thing holding back a potential Tasmanian bid is their lack of rectangular ground infrastructure. Unless they can get some big mining/logging company to sponser them, take them right under their wing and build them a boutique 15k stadium, I think they'll struggle for a successful bid. AFAIA - the Tasmanian Government is pro-AFL and would probably never support the building of a rectangular stadium. Certainly can't see them putting too much cash - if any at all - towards a plan.
WOLLONGONG WOLVES FOR A-LEAGUE EXPANSION!
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jparraga
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Roar_Brisbane wrote:Considering how conservative Gallop was to expansion in the NRL I can't see him having any expansion while he is in charge. So how long is his tenure? pretty different circumstance though? However in saying that can't see FFA retracting on it's stance to hold off on expansion till at least 2015
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paladisious
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Roar_Brisbane wrote:Aussie4ever4 wrote:If Townsville do re-enter i wouldnt mind seeing some kind of affiliation with the military, maybe discounted tickets?
That would be interesting. Maybe just have it as a once off each year. Support your local troops round or something. I spoke about exactly this with an Army mate when Fury were still around. Thing is, everyone up there for the military are only there on a transient basis and support teams and codes from their home states. If you offered a discount on the bar for ADF personnel however, that might work :lol:
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Roar_Brisbane
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Considering how conservative Gallop was to expansion in the NRL I can't see him having any expansion while he is in charge. So how long is his tenure?
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ThrylosG7
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I'm sorry but i dont think that one off games at any venue should be used to determine possible venues.
As for expansion - It should not even be considered unless the next TV is double what it is now - for what it is worth though Canberra probably does have a strong case however 2 things IMHO are deterents 1. Is the city itself - who wants to live there ?? They will churn players faster than you can blink. 2 How passionate are they for a team - how passionate aare the fans ?? They have deep deep roots for the Raiders and Brumbies - Raiders especially and they struggle for real crowds - unless they have a star team with 2 or 3 star players playing great football - they will flop.
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playmaker11
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Townsville really needs a stadium with adequate cover. One hint of rain before kick-off (summer = monsoon) and the crowd is screwed for the match. Cowboys don't have this problem as rain is almost non-existent in winter. I'd maybe like to see Canberra given a look in.
By now, American Samoa must have realised that Australias 22-0 win over Tonga two days earlier was no fluke.
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Red_or_Dead
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Heineken wrote:Excellent OP. I thought this was going to be one of those threads where the same argument is thrown around like a tumble dryer with no meaningful results. Good way to kick off some meaningful discussion.
I'll throw in my 5c which I've voiced in the trillions of meaningless threads over the years.
I find it pretty disappointing that our nations capital (despite what people may think of the place as an actual location) was not in the initial 8 teams. Quite frankly (and I don't want to start flame wars here!) but we could have done without the NZ Knights in the opening years, and had a Canberra team to kick start the league off. If anything, I believe the relative success of the W-League Canberra franchise has paved the way to prove that the ACT, or Canberra could have an extremely sucessful supporter base, and draw crowds no just from within the ACT, but from populated locations as far away as Thredbo/Perisher, Goulburn and the like.
In my honest opinion, the next expansion MUST be to our nations capital. To me it's just pretty poor form we don't have one already.
After that throw a dog a bone to a Tasmanian franchise. The real difficulty there is the location. Pop it in Launceston, and Hobartians will be upset - and vice versa. Unless you called the franchise after the state - i.e. Tasmanian Loggers United - and play half their games in Hobart and the other half in Launceston. The only real thing I think holding a Tasmanian franchise back, short of investors, is a rectangular ground. Whilst as picturesque as Aurora Park and Bellrieve Oval may be - being ovals isn't exactly great footballing infrastructure, especially as Bellrieve has a full time cricket pitch smack bang in the middle of it. Could it work? I guess you don't know until you've tried it. The Sydney FC vs Adelaide United fixtures @ the Adelaide Oval didn't turn out too badly, IIRC. They got healthy attendances to both fixtures and I can't remember the cricket pitch interfering too much with the general style and flow of play.
The retangular park and stadium I think is the one thing Canberra has in favour over a A-League spot at the expense of Tasmania - playing out of Canberra Stadium is fine. Perfect size ground. 20k. I agree that Canberra should be the next team into the A-League - whether they amalgamate with the W-League team and call themselves Canberra United or Canberra Cosmonauts (or whatever) is up to them. We have to keep the expansions in two in my opinion. Adding Heart alone to have 11 teams 3 seasons ago was a complete shemozzle and in fact probably worked against both Heart and NQF. The team to come in with Canberra should be Tasmania! Maybe instead of Loggers though we can call them Tasmania Timbers FC? This also avoids another "United". Out of the 16 (or 17) home games you'd want 6 of them played in Launceston and 10 in Hobart, maybe with a regional game in Devonport (Burnie's probably too small and only 47km from Devonport). In Hobart I don't think they can play out of Bellerive Oval because the Hobart Hurricanes use it for BBL and the schedule would clash. Having said that, Cricket Tasmania just announced a $30m upgrade to Blundstone Arena to be finished August-September 2014 to take seating from 15k to 20k! This stadium can be used (outside of BBL schedule) for bigger games, i.e. against Victory, Sydney FC, Adelaide!? So, that means for the rest of the games they'll have to built a rectangular stadium or play in an existing smaller stadium, which may just require some extra 'temp' seating and a TV tower upgrade to meet Fox Sports' standards.
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melbourne_terrace
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I think the priority needs to be a heartland built up around south eastern australia. Teams in Wollongong, Canberra, Geelong, Tassie will not only provide a team for this regions, but also increases Footballs media presence as well as more reachable away trips for fans in NSW and VIC. Auckland could work if it was done properly, ie Auckland City promoted and playing out of Mt Smart Stadium. There needs to be more of a emphasis from now on though of potential teams proving their worth through the APL. Even if we never have promotion and relegation, it is a much fairer and safer way of adding to the league.
Viennese Vuck
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martyB
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tbitm wrote:tbitm wrote:tbitm wrote:tbitm wrote:tbitm wrote:tbitm wrote:[quote=Roar_Brisbane]Nice thread. please add to the index mods? this i agree +1 +2 x100000000000!!!!! Done. Help a mod out, link to this thread (nicely) if new users start up a new expansion thread. Historically these pop up at least once every 4-6 months. Ta.
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