There is certainly a concern with flooding a market with too many teams:

"Sir, we keep printing more money, but the economy isn't getting any better!"

As are the "this is how it worked in the NSL" comments, when the NSL,period, didn't work.

Delusional flights of fancy.

I think the record shows that as far as entry to the A-League is concerned we SMFC folk have always said that entry to the A-League should be transparent and based on merit.

At the same time there should be some common sense.

As far as I'm concerned Ben Buckley did none of this and expansion failed with Melbourne Heart being the lone survivor.

This "preferred bidder status" was a load of crap and just a means of locking out a bidder while the preferred bidder was not even ready. If the A-League under Buckley wanted a second Melbourne team maybe the FFA should have taken the view that with two strong bids that maybe it would be smart to bring both parties together to make a united bid with more and stronger resources.
No use crying over spilt milk and glad to see the back of Buckley expected so much delivered so little. (remember we were offered $60 Million a year in TV rights he knocked it back expecting $100Mil we got $40Mil)

Again I go back to the key words of Transparency and Governance and it appears to me Gallop may deliver.

On the topic of promotion and relegation, lets throw in the NPL all the second tier really wants is an Eastern Board League called the A2-League.

-Semi-Pro with a National footprint
-played concurrently with the A-League in Summer
-Boutique Stadiums
-Self Administered
-Self Funded
-Developmental for new Franchises like Wollongong etc.
-Resusitative for A-League franchises like Fury so they don't just die but continue on until they can build their base and have another shot.
-any heritage club like South shows they have the resources to move up then thats a positive out ome to

FFA to look at covering travel costs short to medium term.

Simple

Edited by Arthur: 15/2/2013 10:04:46 AM

P/R should eventually be introduced. It will sort out the wheat from the chaff and lead to a higher standard of football, on and off the field. The current structure, where some clubs are protected from "market forces" does not lead to excellence.

Clubs that are well integrated with their community should be able to survive relegation no problem. Other teams who constantly have to win or need a big marquee player in order to attract crowds would struggle.

Everyone should note the massive turnaround at the FFA since Lowy stepped over Buckley to sort out the Tinkler situation.

The only thing Buckley really did from that point on was sign-off on a tv deal which was worth (give or take a million) about the same as the one he turned down 2 years earlier.

With Gorman moved from the A-League to Wanderers I reckon we have a better man in De Bohun, and with Gallop for Buckley I'd say we have a more competent (and interested) man in charge at the FFA.

Kyle Patterson appears to be getting better guidance from his superiors as well - gone is the bluster and arrogance, replaced by a far more 'user-friendly' experience when dealing with the FFA.

Ah Yes - Adelaide, a city where the fans will get bailed out no matter how badly the club is run.

True words spoken in jest

Take a look at the league table right now and imagine if there was relegation.

Instead of the shit teams still clinging to the pathetic hope of getting "to the finals", there'd really be some interest.

lols and a city where its fans turned up.

'Change the subject' is paulc's speciality

We have a 10 team first tier.

How about we get that up to 18 before we start worrying about the 2nd tier. :lol:

Promotion/relegation might not happen now but could very well happen in the next 10-20 years.

Just think how far this game has come in 20 years.

In 1993 the A-League and its current and former clubs didn't even exist and personally did not have one iota of interest in the world game. First ever game of football/soccer I ever watch for the full 90 minutes on television was the USA columbia world cup match (the infamous Escobar own goal) at USA94.

Now I absolutely can't get enough of the sport.

Who's to say in 20 years time promotion/relegation might be a real possibilty?

At the very least at this time it is given many many semi pro clubs right across Australia some ambition to build their clubs to the point where they could make a successful transition to the A-league.

What about the current A-league clubs? For Arguments sake lets say relegation is not in for another 20 years if your A-League can't build sustainable support after pretty much the second generation of A-league fans come through then it will never build any support. From an Adelaide United prospective if we go down we should still survive.

It would be a semi-pro team still playing at hindmarsh and depending on the number of supporters would still play at hindmarsh (most likely only have one stand open or depending on number of core supporters that will stay with the team).

costs for flights, accomodation and travel will be non-existent so the club will save money there so I guess why the fear of relegation. If your good enough you will stay up.

The only main issue I can see is this

WHEN WILL YOU PLAY THE PLAYOFF BETWEEN THE BOTTOM A-LEAGUE TEAM AND THE TOP NPL SIDE? Would it be at the start of the A-League season or at the end since our A_league and NPL season completely overlap. When would you play these games?

Where will we find these 8 A-League ready sides? Where will the players come from?

A proper 2nd division allows potential franchises to find their feet in a lower cost environment and reduces the risks of lame-ducks being introduced to the 'showcase' league. It also puts the 'best of the rest' players into a higher standard of competition (instead of being dispersed over a hundred teams around the country they are condensed into a much smaller space - this weeds out the lesser players who can't step up and also provides a greater test for those who can, who in turn become even better players.

WORST case scenario - this second division serves as a nursery for players, best case it provides the next A-League franchises (either by automatic promotion, or by selective expansion 'invites').

One could go a step further... Set up the A2 for all of the above reasons, then introduce the promotion/relegation system, with the play-offs, etc., but always have the 'get out of jail free' card at the FFA's disposal that they can re-admit the relegated side as part of an expansion program... So in the 'nightmare' scenario that (for example) Brisbane are relegated and replaced by another Melbourne side, the FFA could simply invite Brisbane back into the A-League along with the best performing (in terms of finances & support) side in the A2. Hey presto, we've just gone from 10 teams to 12, protected the 5 major cities for the tv deal, protected the franchise owners, rewarded one team for playing exceptionally, and rewarded a second for running its business properly.

Everyone wins.

Ignoring all of the other problems/potential problems with Promotion/Relegation, which have been discussed in depth several times in this thread already...




WTF? Why on earth would there even be the suggestion of having the playoff at the start of the season? 2 weeks before the season starts, the teams in the playoff won't even know what division they will be in...


Edited by petszk: 15/2/2013 01:31:58 PM

Yes - it can work.

[if by work you mean the league struggles along for another 10 years or so before going belly up, yet again, and starting anew]

There is one scenario where it might work for longer, and that is if the new tin pot teams take it in turn to go up and down, and their owners/supporters accept that merry-go-round.

But if you have a situation where in successive years, the only teams from Adelaide, Perth and Brisbane find themselves in the 2nd division together for an extended period, the whole comp will collapse.

=; [-x :roll: then what's the point of pro/rel ](*,)

Edited by Roar #1: 15/2/2013 01:37:08 PM

I've been wondering the same thing myself... Highlights another reason we'd be better off having the 2nd tier playing at the same time as the A-league.

The main point is to keep the AFC happy. The mechanism is there for that.

The second point is that having the promotion part in place provides the carrot for all the NPL teams.

The third is that if a 'lesser' side (ie/ newly promoted rather than established franchise) happens to finish last, they can switch places with the up-and-coming side.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

-PB

So if Brisbane go down, being the only club in Queensland, the FFA would just bring them back anyway. But if Melbourne victory go down, they would stay down because there are other Melbourne teams. Hmmm that seems fair, nice logic.

Benjamin is talking sense here.

The main problem with what he is suggesting is that over the course of even just a few years, you'll run out of opportunities to hand out get-out-of-jail-free cards.

First time you do it, you'll go up to 12 teams, and that's good, then the 2nd time, it will be 14 teams, hmmm, manageable, the 3rd time it will be 16 teams and you're asking for a lot of trouble if the league isn't yet ready.

Now if that took more than 10 years to eventuate, you could just about accommodate it without too much pain (maybe).

But if it all happened within the first five years - the league is in a bit of trouble.

promotion relegation isn't worth that many points in the acl. Its not a very big carrot for what would destroy our league.

However if we have to do it here is how I would envision it. Have a minimum set of criteria for clubs in the hunt for promotion and relegation and gradually lift that criteria until it is almost at the level of an a league club (spends 2/3rds of the a league salary cap on salary, gets at least 6000 people to a game average). Then if such a team wins the ffa cup they are eligible for promotion in a home and away comp with the bottom team of the a league. If by some miracle they win then make that year an a league "expansion year" where the promoted team joins the a league as well as the relegated team. Do this 4 times (it might take thirty years for this to happen) then finally institute a propper promotion relegation when we have the population density and enough soccer fans to make it sustainable

If the decision was being made in order to protect the tv deal - then yes, that would be the case.

If the decision was being made to protect the 'strength' of the A-League - then no, they would re-admit Victory. If things continued as they are at the moment, Heart might be on shaky ground, ditto Phoenix, possibly the Mariners too.

Yet again you mistake a desire for an 18 or 20 team league and my clear logical reasoning against promotion and relegation with the insane idea that the second tiers shouldn't improve.

Can and will work. If the second division remains conference. Simple. Fuck NZ off. AFC is much more valuable than not.

oops

Edited by GCU till I die: 15/2/2013 02:54:55 PM

Let me simplify...

You have said that you don't want a national second tier competition until we have 18-20 teams in the A-league. Am I correct so far?

I respond by saying that the second tier competition is the most effective way to find the extra teams to expand the A-league and the players to fill them. Did I make that clear?

I'm not sure what you think I am mistaking.

If the teams coming up into the A-league are so good that they are avoiding relegation in each subsequent season - forcing one established franchise after another into the relegation zone - and in the process maintaining their finances in good order - I'd say the argument for promotion and relegation would have been well and truly proven.

In reality - the chances of earning promotion would be extremely slim, the chances of retaining ones place in the A-League would be similar to the EPL, where clubs often struggle after promotion and are back in the Championship within 2 seasons.

Worst case scenario - for your fear to manifest itself in full you'd have to have Perth Glory, Brisbane Roar and Adelaide United (or both Melbourne sides, or both Sydney sides) all finish last in the space of a few seasons, and all lose playoffs to semi-pro points-capped sides.

I agree with the people who say we shouldn't be like Europe. This is Australia. First we need to change the name of the game back to soccer, then we have to make the ball more egg-shaped to make it more unpredictable,remove the limiting handball rule and double the size of the goal to increase scoring.

On a more serious note, I think people focues too much on the league rather than the clubs. If clubs are successful and sustainable then the league will be strong. If you abolish the salary cap and follow FIFA's financial fair play regulations, then bigger clubs will (probably) survive the drop but not become ridiculously dominant and smaller clubs will have to be financially viable in order to be promoted and not be burdened by large salary payments if relegated. Also, one condition for entry to the A-league could be that each club needs an academy or youth structure that meets some (high) standards, therefore ensuring that the future of Australian football is not compromised by losing top tier teams and their structures.

Finally, this is not happening tomorrow! This is planning for the long term, it probably wont happen until the mid 2020s, by which time there should be many more teams in the A-league who should all be sustainable.

Your mistake is you view promotion and relegation as the only way for second tier teams to enter the A-League and that because I do not ascribe to the view that we should have promotion/relegation, that means I do not want the second tiers to improve. You have repeatedly said or implied that I do not want the second tier leagues to improve. That is false.

Mack wants 18 teams.

Mack doesn't want promotion/relegation.

Therefore Mack doesn't want to improve the second tier.

That is your mistake.

My reality is:
I want 18 or more teams in the A-League.

In the far future I want a similar number in what would be termed a 'B-League' of broad-based regional teams developed under a similar structure to how Western Sydney came about.

I do not want promotion relegation until the A-League and B-League has 18 or more teams in each league, and the two tiers are sustainable and profitable.

I want the new broad-based teams teams to enter the A-League after a period of bedding down in their local 2nd tier (what would become the third tier in the future) competition until we have the 18 or more teams.

At that point we began to develop and construct the B-League, moving the existing 2nd tier state leagues to the 3rd tier.

I want to improve the second and third tiers to improve the facilities and quality of players available to the first tier and national team.