Well that's based on a very risky assumption that football clubs will never find themselves in financial difficulty. Even in a capped league, shit happens. Trust me, ask myself or PB.

Risk, however, is part of business. If owners want to minimise the risk of relegation they will have to be protecting and bettering their investment in order to remain in the spotlight. With relegation, teams which do not bleed money, which run their clubs well, will survive. It's a relatively simple formula, if you're shit enough to get relegated you should be relegated.

Relegation breeds competition and ultimately, will contribute to the strength of the game in Australia and the national side. Similarly, the possibility of promotion with an A-League criteria would drive investment into the NPL, raising standards for youth development and therefore raising the standard of A-League recruitment.

I do agree with the idea that only promotion should be brought into the game until the league is bigger.

Promotion provides an incentive to invest at the bottom of the game, relegation provides an incentive to invest at the top.

With Ken +1

8 state leagues = (approx) 96 teams.
96 teams = (approx) 1920 players (at 20 players per squad).

The talent pool is too wide spread, meaning that the best players are lost in a sea of mediocrity and are not tested regularly enough.

1 national 2nd tier = (approx) 12 teams.
12 teams = (approx) 240 players.

The talent pool is condensed, meaning that the best players are forced to raise their game which results in them improving. Talent struggles to break through.

Aside from promotion/relegation for entire sides, this also means that the A-League has a better pool of players to select from, which in turn means that the national team has a better pool of players to select from. Everything improves.

I can see positives and negatives on both sides, good discussion.

The one question I'd ask, could you see Australian's supporting second tier leagues?

I understand your concerns, and now is not the right time to introduce P/R. But opening up a pathway to promotion will drive state league clubs to improve their on-field and off-field performance such that they could be strong enough to gain promotion one day.

Plus, having P/R will increase competitive pressure on current A-league clubs, such that the game will improve as a whole. Having a closed shop at the top will only stymie growth and improvement.

As far as relegated clubs go, yes their crowds would fall which is why they each need strong community ties. Also, the 2nd tier would have to still be of a decent standard, and probably televised. I think it was Benjamin who made a point about concentrating the "best of the rest" in one second tier competition, rather than spreading the talent around thinly throughout all the state leagues. If that happens the it definitely would be superior to the current state leagues in terms of quality, so there will still be a lot of interest.

With respect to televising the 2nd tier, I think Foxtel would pick it up - they are always looking for content. Alternatively, the FFA could sell games direct to the consumer via the NBN, which incidentally is why Rupert Murdoch is trying to knock it over.

And for those who are worried about a "big club" getting relegated, to me that says more about the weakness of the current setup, of which its success is too reliant on these said clubs.




Edited by jak: 16/2/2013 07:39:29 AM

I'd like to see:

Last - First = Automatic P/R
2nd last - 2nd runner up = Playoff

A bit like a reverse Champions League Qualification

Australians already do - just not many of them... Lack of publicity, negative perceptions, etc. We (state league clubs and supporters) need to raise our game in terms of promoting our own clubs and leagues.

Whether for or against promotion or relegation the main thing I am getting out of this is that all clubs in the relevant state leagues and territory leagues are going to build there standards both on and off the pitch.

At least the whole of australia is being representing by semi professional clubs right across Australia. This can only be a good thing.

I respect your point Benjamin about making a national second tier or as you put it focus around NSW VIC and ACT but I have to disagree because this again will put players outside of these states at a complete disadvantage because they would have to be exceptional players.

The measuring stick of the strength of a state league will be measure at the end of season state league champions tournament.

The pleasing thing is whether you are from NSW SA or NT kids are being given a pathway to possibly playing a-league football.

I just hope costs are kept affordable so that these juniors can play.

Player points systems or not, the best players will still end up in the leagues that offer the best money - as a result, these leagues will always be better than the others. The clubs with the money tend to be in Melbourne and NSW. In other words, if you are not in Melbourne or NSW you are already at a disadvantage in terms of development and finances.

Players in SA, NT, etc., already have pathways to the A-league - a national second tier wouldn't negatively affect that - it would improve it by providing a stepping stone between diluted state league standards and concentrated A-league standards.

Edited by Benjamin: 16/2/2013 10:19:35 AM

Spot on Benjamin

I think we can all agree pro/rel has so many benefits on the pitch that would undoubtedly raise standards never before seen in this country in a professional environment

But off the pitch, it could be a tough pill to swallow

I like your reasoning for a 12 team 2nd tier comp Ben. To ensure it is a reasonable standard from the outset, I'd first expand the a-league to 24 teams by promoting 2 state league teams per year. Then spilt the comp into 2 tiers each with 12 teams. At that point, promotion and relegation could be introduced between the 2 tiers, as well as between the 2nd tier and state leagues.

The whole point of my idea is to provide a nursery for both potential A-League teams and players (not to mention coaches and match officials) - my system could be in place in 1 or 2 years, providing immediate improvement of playing standards, further professional pathways, plus opportunities for prospective A-league franchises to prove themselves without threatening the stability of the A-League.

The idea to expand the A-League to 24 teams THEN split into 2 conferences, delays all of the above by at least a decade. That's another 8-9 years of development and improvement lost.

Stuttgart score 92nd minute to avoid relegation. This is the magic of football 

https://youtu.be/2Z7dbykCNLU

A lot of names on this thread that we haven't seen for a long time.

fucking necrophiliac

YES pro/rel will work.

We still have a way to go but with the NPL clubs finally having a transfer system it is set in motion.
Once the National Second Division begins and the clubs start making decent money from transfers, they can pose more serious competition for the Australia Cup, and when an NSD/NPL team finally wins it the calls for full promotion/relegation will only grow louder.
That's not taking into account the A-League and how its clubs perform, but I can imagine the APL will find every excuse to stop it from happening anyway (and by that time a third division would be a long-term goal, whether it be national or split into conferences)

How many licenses available for sale at the moment ?

for an organisation focused on metrics (or that used to be) it seems crazy that your one incredible advantage and point of difference is not exploited. 

Had this on my mind for a while, but here is an argument for why, even from the standpoint of metrics bla bla bla, pro-rel can be a good thing for the A-League.

Let's say hypothetically you have two cities that are roughly the same size, with both of them borderline capable of supporting an A-League team. For simplicity's sake we can call them "Central Coast" and "Wollongong". They both have the population to support average crowds of (say) 5000 per game on a long-term basis, but the A-League only has room for one of them in any given season.

In the current closed-shop A-League model, the league picks one of these cities (Central Coast) which is in it every season and can never get relegated, but is not big enough to ever really challenge for the title. So their crowds (a reflection of popular interest in general) hover around the long-term average of 5000.

Meanwhile, the other city (Wollongong) is permanently excluded from the A-League, and stranded in a lower-division semi-pro league with no prospect of promotion. Because of this, even though there is latent support for average crowds of 5000 per game, in reality they are lucky to get 1000 per game and have no motivation to go fully pro, raise the club's standards, etc. They just have to wait till a magic expansion spot appears on the horizon.

However, if you have an open system with promotion-relegation, both clubs would be yo-yo clubs (a la Norwich or Fulham), spending roughly half the time in the A-League and half in the second division. When they are in the second division, interest in the club naturally wanes, so crowds would drop to just the hardcore loyal support, say, 2000 per game. But conversely, since there is latent support for 5000 average gate every year, the 50% of seasons in which the team is in the A-League is accorded extra interest, which means that they average 8000 per game in those seasons. This is exactly what happens with clubs in Europe. Just being in the top division is a source of excitement since it isn't taken for granted, while the struggle for promotion while in the second tier drives interest in those seasons.

To sum up:

Closed-shop model: Central Coast (A-League) = 5000 per game, Wollongong (NSD) = 1000 per game
Open P/R model: Central Coast/Wollongong (A-League) = 8000 per game, Wollongong/Central Coast (NSD) = 2000 per game

So crowds are better in the NSD, but they are also, on average, better in the A-League. Of course I pulled these numbers out of my arse, but I think the underlying logic is a sound one.

Found it pretty cool that a small club in Scotland called Queens Park have recently gone from being a completely amateur side (literally couldn't sign players to a paid contract) to a semi pro outfit and they've now won back to back promotions and will be in Scotland's second tier next season.

I like the way the Scottish pyramid works, top of the table automatically promoted.
2-4 enter a play off as well as second bottom from the league above.
Provides plenty of tension over two legged ties and keeps things very entertaining and mitigates dead rubbers in all divisions.

That happens in a few leagues around the world and I also like it as a system :) ... Scottish football is the very last example Football Australia will look to emulate though mate, after all they just crowned an "effnik sokkah club" Champions of Scotland with fans waving Irish flags and chanting in a foreign language and all...... we cant have that here, think of all the offended NRL and AFL bogans, not to mention the "ethnically pure Australian" football supporters......

:w00t::laugh:
Hey long time between the efffnicks probs they bring up, what about the RBB/Cove/MV's etcetc and the rest of the latter "ethnically pure Australian" football supporters......
Look what they did to them - seems to be what comes around goes around in this so called sports mad country re socckah but as long as its boganville gayfl/nrl/aru we accpet it lol.....

tsf as mentions, our best asset is P/R period full stop over the bogan codes as long as its structured right but fat chance with the current APLM coming to party in years ahead.
Roll on NSD.

Yes, keeps more clubs interested. Eredivisie something similar where only bottom club automatically relegated, next two lowest play off against 2 and 3 in erste divisie. Probably been mentioned upthread but I'd say transfer dollars are key. I can't understand the rationale for banning a commercial transfer market to date. Looking again at the Dutch scene, it seems the viability of their leagues rely heavily on developing and selling players. Outlaying for marquees is a rarity. Admittedly,  we have bigger challenges in promoting the game that they don't face but even so I think we should be moving closer to their model.

Will the FA/APL want to promote clubs from a Foreign Heritage or background though? The problems that other cultures have, many never want to let go of and make it part of the football experience for everyone.
Interesting about the concept of foreign. Celtic were founded by the Irish immigrants  and were a club that helped poor folk from that background on Scotland.
Sure one land is under a different flag to another, and foreigners need to settle once they cross the divide, agreed.
Anglo Saxon Nations are one, same language, culture, colour, a slightly different dialect. English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, American, Australian, Canadian and New Zealand (not Maori), are the same. Its like saying you speak multiple languages, English, American, Canadian, Australian, Scottish and Welsh.
Although, being from the Meditteranean, the Italian, Croatian, Greek, German, Cech and Maltese, among others, are all different to each other, and different from the Anglo background.
Foreigners are like Ange's family emigrating to Australia from Europe without speaking the language, a totally foreign culture and tongue.

P & R will never work in Australia.
It would scare away the major stakeholders being the club owners - how would you put this to them ‘Thanks for financing your team over the years particularly through Covid but if your team finishes last - your out of the league and will be replaced by a state team that probably will have 500 fans’
It would have every owner running from the game and thus no A-League.
This would bring about all the major sponsors leaving as well - they are not going to put money into the game where there are no major financial controls.
There is also the issue after a few seasons of P & R Perth , Adelaide and Brisbane being relegated and replaced by teams from NSW & VIC thus becoming a South East League - as an example 
Which ever way you spin it entire cities/states will have no team…

So what happens when an efnik club wins the Australia Cup? I know it isn't as big as the other titles but it still counts.

Dude what did I say about pulling cones before you type on here? Hahahah wtf are you on about ? Hahahahahah

Thanks Johns, your right ofcourse, the only obstacle to all 1000+ clubs around Australia achieving their full potential are the feelings and finances of a handful,of foreigners.... Gotta keep the Arabs, the Chinese and the Indonesians happy.........

With only 2 foreign player spots allowed, a player points system restricting recruitment and playing finals,out of season.... its never gonna happen. The only effnik club in with a chance is Wellington but they are the good kind of wogsies because they don't speak with a funny accent., have foreign symbols on their kits or even foreign languages....... do they?