New $170m soccer stadium proposed in Dandenong by Team 11 franchise


New $170m soccer stadium proposed in Dandenong by Team 11 franchise

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bohemia
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Benjamin - 13 May 2018 7:08 PM
Note that this $24m appears to be community funding for facilities for local clubs.  Team11 might be able to take advantage of it - but it wouldn't be theirs, they would always be sharing.

The fanfare about this funding also brings into sharp focus the lack of funding for the stadium.  I assume they would have to play at Etihad for the first year or two as three teams can't share the same home venue and there's no way they will have their own venue ready in time...  So good luck to a new team starting up, playing their home games in an oversized venue 35km from the people they represent.

West Melbourne side self-financing their stadium sounds like a better bet if we want something completely new...  Assuming they can build their venue in a year.

It can't be done in a year. As a private venture not linked with a council they'd be going through the process like anyone else proposing a private development. I'd estimate planning and approvals to be at least 2 years. Add on negotiations for acquiring the land which could easily be a year. If it's proposed for a green field then the stadium negotiations will be nothing compared to the haggling over surrounding infrastructure. This West Melbourne "bid" if it exists would be a lot of work for a lot of people for up to 10 years.
Edited
6 Years Ago by bohemia
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Note that this $24m appears to be community funding for facilities for local clubs.  Team11 might be able to take advantage of it - but it wouldn't be theirs, they would always be sharing.

The fanfare about this funding also brings into sharp focus the lack of funding for the stadium.  I assume they would have to play at Etihad for the first year or two as three teams can't share the same home venue and there's no way they will have their own venue ready in time...  So good luck to a new team starting up, playing their home games in an oversized venue 35km from the people they represent.

West Melbourne side self-financing their stadium sounds like a better bet if we want something completely new...  Assuming they can build their venue in a year.
Edited
6 Years Ago by Benjamin
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24m from a local council is pretty solid.
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to me, of all of the Victorian bids, this is the one that makes most sense to me.
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Good to see they’ve already committed to investing 4 pitches and change rooms regardless
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24 million to be invested by the City of Casey for T11s training HQ

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/soccer/city-of-casey-set-to-invest-20m-to-back-team-11-s-a-league-bid-20180512-p4zevn.html

Edited
6 Years Ago by bohemia
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southmelb - 2 May 2018 6:45 AM
paladisious - 2 May 2018 12:06 AM

They havent been healthy for a good 6-7 years, most of its fanbase walked out on them after the grand final fiasco in 2012. Had about 500 odd when we played them in march and id say we outnumbered them. What was most noticeable to me was how much Victory gear was in the crowd though. Most of the albanians in dandenong actually live right by the ground and you can actually see them coming out of their homes and walking to it lol.

I know some of them too 🤣🤣 great people but can be a little moronic 
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Gyfox - 3 May 2018 12:26 AM
bohemia - 3 May 2018 12:18 AM

I wish there was enough money to go to 14 clubs with 2 rounds making 182 games a season instead of 12x3 with 198 games.  That way the competition is improved without increasing individual clubs costs and the expansion can include Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane plus a regional city like Canberra or Wollongong.

If the FFA hadn't pissed away so much funding on consultants and first class travel, if they had expanded in the interests of the league rather than for the World Cup bid, and if they had stayed onside with the owners and the PFA rather than being confrontational, there's a good chance they would have had the funds to support expansion when it was needed, which would in turn have kept the game 'hot', leading to better media/advertising in the future, leading to growth of the game and further expansion (and ultimately pro/rel).  However, because they don't trust (or won't take responsibility for) their own decisions, they had to go for big consultancy fees; and because they got offside with the owners and the PFA they found themselves having to hand every spare $ over...  Which ultimately stifled the game at the exact moment it needed to move forward.
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paladisious - 3 May 2018 3:06 AM
Burztur - 3 May 2018 1:02 AM

Pretty damn embarrassing that we should be worried about scraping by on minimum AFC requirements, but here we are.

We're already below them on some metrics, like how we might have four teams in the ACL if not for the perfectly reasonable not more than one third of the league can qualify, and with Phoenix making it just nine Australian teams we're just on a third with three teams as it is.

3 is nothing to sniff at. No matter how elite a league is, the maximum is 4. If Wellington stays we would need a 13 team league to get 4 spots and even then we wouldn't get direct qualification for all of them.
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Burztur - 3 May 2018 1:02 AM
Is 26 rounds plus finals enough for ACL requirements?

Pretty damn embarrassing that we should be worried about scraping by on minimum AFC requirements, but here we are.

We're already below them on some metrics, like how we might have four teams in the ACL, but with the perfectly reasonable rule whereby not more than one-third of the league can qualify, with Phoenix making it just nine Australian teams we're just on a third of the league with three teams qualifying as it is.
Edited
6 Years Ago by paladisious
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Burztur - 3 May 2018 1:02 AM
Is 26 rounds plus finals enough for ACL requirements?

Yes.

The minimum is 27 including cup matches.

http://www.the-afc.com/afc/documents/PdfFiles/entry-manual-afc-club-competitions-2017-2020-33728

What is also relevant to our participation in the ACL is our AFC geographical ranking. We just assume our place is a given but it's not. We can't afford to stagnate.

http://www.the-afc.com/afc-ranking/latest

Edited
6 Years Ago by bohemia
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Is 26 rounds plus finals enough for ACL requirements?
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bohemia - 3 May 2018 12:18 AM
I mean, like I said it's just might be a little strange. Or apparently maybe not.  It's nowhere on the list of priorities though in determining the strength of the bid. This bid appears a bloody strong one if they can deliver what they're promising.

Wouldn't suprise me though if Gallop goes for Geelong over this because, like, Geelong has an AFL team, then comes up with some story about how he spent his whole life dedicated to the cause of pitch orientation when he lived with a West Brom fan in London and hence totally gets football.

I wish there was enough money to go to 14 clubs with 2 rounds making 182 games a season instead of 12x3 with 198 games.  That way the competition is improved without increasing individual clubs costs and the expansion can include Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane plus a regional city like Canberra or Wollongong.
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I mean, like I said it's just might be a little strange. Or apparently maybe not.  It's nowhere on the list of priorities though in determining the strength of the bid. This bid appears a bloody strong one if they can deliver what they're promising.

Wouldn't suprise me though if Gallop goes for Geelong over this because, like, Geelong has an AFL team, then comes up with some story about how he spent his whole life dedicated to the cause of pitch orientation when he lived with a West Brom fan in London and hence totally gets football.
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bohemia - 3 May 2018 12:02 AM
paladisious - 2 May 2018 11:49 PM

Not questioning your jam. To my eye the pitch orientation could be up to 30 degrees. The reason I suggested the "variance" rather than 15 degrees absolute is because I had a vague sense that at that latitude 0 degrees wouldn't be the correct assumption. If someone wants to get a protractor out and get the angle I'd be interested. 

It's a bit hard to estimate going by alignment with the rail way as there appears a small spur on the line that affects the shape of the site. I see from the images though that they're proposing to build over it. In the end that could be half the job getting this stadium up - negotiating with the state government to release that bit of land.
Just using the measurement tool on google earth pro the orientation is about 30 degrees plus a bit.


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paladisious - 2 May 2018 11:49 PM
bohemia - 2 May 2018 8:16 PM

This stuff is my jam. At Melbourne's latitude about 15 degrees to the east is spot on for what you want, and funnily enough, the train line lines up with that pretty well.

Here's a guide recommending a 15-degree orientation for Perth.


Not questioning your jam. To my eye the pitch orientation could be up to 30 degrees. The reason I suggested the "variance" rather than 15 degrees absolute is because I had a vague sense that at that latitude 0 degrees wouldn't be the correct assumption. If someone wants to get a protractor out and get the angle I'd be interested. 

It's a bit hard to estimate going by alignment with the rail way as there appears a small spur on the line that affects the shape of the site. I see from the images though that they're proposing to build over it. In the end that could be half the job getting this stadium up - negotiating with the state government to release that bit of land.
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bohemia - 2 May 2018 8:16 PM
Gyfox - 2 May 2018 8:06 PM

Typically north south orientations are recommended by FAs with a maximum 15 degree variance. There are issues related to sun glare for players but also broadcast considerations when trying to account for shadowing.  Can be a bitch for live play when the cameraman/producer struggle with the light shifts. It's not too bad where an even shadow is cast but not so ideal with a diagonal shadow on the ground.

At Melbourne's latitude about 15 degrees to the east is spot on for what you want, and funnily enough, the train line lines up with that pretty well.

Here's a guide recommending a 15-degree orientation for Perth:


Edited
6 Years Ago by paladisious
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Greaves Reserve doesn’t have that much capacity for significant parking neither.
There’s existing grounds being used for sport and there’s no way they’d let cars park on them.

I thought this stadium option at Dandy Station noted there was viable parking options nearby
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bohemia - 2 May 2018 8:16 PM
Gyfox - 2 May 2018 8:06 PM

Typically north south orientations are recommended by FAs with a maximum 15 degree variance. There are issues related to sun glare for players but also broadcast considerations when trying to account for shadowing.  Can be a bitch for live play when the cameraman/producer struggle with the light shifts. It's not too bad where an even shadow is cast but not so ideal with a diagonal shadow on the ground.

The 15 degree variance was in old texts that I remember but now its a bit more sophisticated and orientation should be optimised according to the specific site, prevailing wind direction, other environmental conditions, the time games are to be played, the season they are to be played and even the type of stadium planned.  As a general principle players don't like looking into the sun and neither do spectators.  Anything 30 degrees off the optimal orientation should be fine although even that can be stretched.  Of course the further away from optimal orientation the stadium is the greater the compromise but all designs are a balancing act of competing priorities anyway.
Edited
6 Years Ago by Gyfox
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Gyfox - 2 May 2018 8:06 PM
bohemia - 2 May 2018 7:22 PM

Why will the orientation be strange?  NE-SE isn't too bad and its the same as was proposed for Greaves Reserve.  I agree on the parking issue though.

Typically north south orientations are recommended by FAs with a maximum 15 degree variance. There are issues related to sun glare for players but also broadcast considerations when trying to account for shadowing.  Can be a bitch for live play when the cameraman/producer struggle with the light shifts. It's not too bad where an even shadow is cast but not so ideal with a diagonal shadow on the ground.
Edited
6 Years Ago by bohemia
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bohemia - 2 May 2018 7:22 PM


So has Team11 officially scrapped the Greaves Reserve and opted for that empty lot straight over the tracks from the station? It's a good location urban planning wise but the pitch orientation will be strange. It's not especially large either. Ideally everyone would take the train, but reality says they won't and there's no parking available.

Greaves Reserve is a better spot IMO.

Why will the orientation be strange?  NE-SE isn't too bad and its the same as was proposed for Greaves Reserve.  I agree on the parking issue though.
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So has Team11 officially scrapped the Greaves Reserve and opted for that empty lot straight over the tracks from the station? It's a good location urban planning wise but the pitch orientation will be strange. It's not especially large either. Ideally everyone would take the train, but reality says they won't and there's no parking available.

Greaves Reserve is a better spot IMO.
Edited
6 Years Ago by bohemia
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bluebird - 2 May 2018 9:43 AM
Gyfox - 1 May 2018 4:49 PM

The AFL Players Association negotiates for players with the AFL on the topic of average salary. In June 2017, the AFL and AFL Players Association agreed to a new CBA deal which resulted in a 20% increase in players salary. The six-year deal, which begins in 2017 and ends in 2022 means that the average player wage rises from $309,000 to $371,000 and the player salary cap from $10.37m to $12.45m. In 2022, the final year of the agreement, the average player wage will be $389,000 with a salary cap of $13.54m


How can the A League present itself as a serious professional option if 5 years from now players haven't even been given a cost of living increase, let alone what is being offered by rival codes they can walk into and start playing

The current allocation only allows for a $100k increase every year for the remaining 5 years of the TV deal. Compare this to the AFL which increases at ~$500k per year, and the average wage $200k higher than the A League

Why is the 5 year plan to continue to be the poor sibling?

The AFL TV deal is 8 times the size of the A-League deal, so hardly surprising that our salaries aren't keeping up.
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Enzo Bearzot - 2 May 2018 12:26 PM
#Blessed - 2 May 2018 12:03 PM

LOL!  You gotta love football in Australia.

I don't get it.
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Land is owned by council. They tried to flog it as apartment sites but developers didn't take it up
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#Blessed - 2 May 2018 12:03 PM
paladisious - 30 Apr 2018 11:42 AM

Are you sure this isn't private land zoned for high-density housing? There is literally a sign advertising 'multi-level apartment parcels for sale' on this site.

LOL!  You gotta love football in Australia.
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paladisious - 30 Apr 2018 11:42 AM
Stadium site on Google street view. You can see Dandenong Station right behind it.

Are you sure this isn't private land zoned for high-density housing? There is literally a sign advertising 'multi-level apartment parcels for sale' on this site.


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bluebird - 2 May 2018 9:43 AM
Gyfox - 1 May 2018 4:49 PM

The AFL Players Association negotiates for players with the AFL on the topic of average salary. In June 2017, the AFL and AFL Players Association agreed to a new CBA deal which resulted in a 20% increase in players salary. The six-year deal, which begins in 2017 and ends in 2022 means that the average player wage rises from $309,000 to $371,000 and the player salary cap from $10.37m to $12.45m. In 2022, the final year of the agreement, the average player wage will be $389,000 with a salary cap of $13.54m


How can the A League present itself as a serious professional option if 5 years from now players haven't even been given a cost of living increase, let alone what is being offered by rival codes they can walk into and start playing

The current allocation only allows for a $100k increase every year for the remaining 5 years of the TV deal. Compare this to the AFL which increases at ~$500k per year, and the average wage $200k higher than the A League

Why is the 5 year plan to continue to be the poor sibling?

I don't know where you get your figures from but it is clear that the agreement with the players is for a 30% share of the increase in the broadcast rights.  If that share of any uplifts in the rights has to go to the existing players or the agreement can be fulfilled by covering the cap for expansion clubs is not clear to me but no doubt the signatories to the agreement have it sorted.  The CBA runs out in 2019 so it will be interesting to follow and see the outcome of negotiations on that.  Whether those negotiations wii involve the FFA is not at all known at this stage.

As to your last statement I hope you have pointed out that view to the bods from AAFC who keep sprouting on about the A-League players being paid too much.  No doubt some of them would be happy to go back to the semi amateur NSL days when the average player payment was $40k.
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6 Years Ago by Gyfox
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Gyfox - 1 May 2018 4:49 PM
bluebird - 1 May 2018 1:14 PM

.I'm not sure why the cap would go up from its current $2.9..m unless the players expect the $6m for expansion and the further $6m for meeting metrics is to be shared with them.

The AFL Players Association negotiates for players with the AFL on the topic of average salary. In June 2017, the AFL and AFL Players Association agreed to a new CBA deal which resulted in a 20% increase in players salary. The six-year deal, which begins in 2017 and ends in 2022 means that the average player wage rises from $309,000 to $371,000 and the player salary cap from $10.37m to $12.45m. In 2022, the final year of the agreement, the average player wage will be $389,000 with a salary cap of $13.54m


How can the A League present itself as a serious professional option if 5 years from now players haven't even been given a cost of living increase, let alone what is being offered by rival codes they can walk into and start playing

The current allocation only allows for a $100k increase every year for the remaining 5 years of the TV deal. Compare this to the AFL which increases at ~$500k per year, and the average wage $200k higher than the A League

Why is the 5 year plan to continue to be the poor sibling?




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paladisious - 2 May 2018 12:06 AM
MarkfromCroydon - 1 May 2018 8:21 PM

Also worth noting that Dandenong Thunder is of Albanian extraction. One of the healthiest clubs in Victoria.

They havent been healthy for a good 6-7 years, most of its fanbase walked out on them after the grand final fiasco in 2012. Had about 500 odd when we played them in march and id say we outnumbered them. What was most noticeable to me was how much Victory gear was in the crowd though. Most of the albanians in dandenong actually live right by the ground and you can actually see them coming out of their homes and walking to it lol.
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