Thats what religion is though. Faith. Thats all it is. We can't know for sure that there is a god. No one can. No matter what anyone tries to say, there is no way to conclusively prove that there is a god unless he/she/it does it themselves (if they exist). It's what makes religion so unique, that people are willing to give their lives based entirely on a belief.

And why people are willing to believe in something so devoutly, in my opinion, is unexplainable. Simply because everyone lives their lives differently, everyone makes different choices, everyone has their own view of the world. Everyones beliefs are different, even those who fall under the same religion. Look at Catholicism and Christianity. Look at all the different types of Christianity, and the different levels of faith within those. Basically the same beliefs, but different at the same time. It's because of that, that I don't think anyone can truly understand why people are willing to give their lives for something that is purely belief, until they've experienced it themselves.

Which is what I think johnsmith is trying to get at (I may be wrong), He can't really explain it because its basically inexplainable. The only way to understand, is to experience. Well, thats my view any way.




Sorry:p

I have a question, I think it is pretty obvious that Jesus was a real guy, who lived in 1st century Palestine and was killed because he was a trouble maker and blasphemer. I think even them most ardent non-Christians could nto deny that. If they did, they would also be denything the existence of Julius Caesar, Nero, Augustus or pretty much any other historical figure of Antiquety. However, who do people say that he is?

I can think of only four options:

A. He was who he said he was (ie the Son of God)

B. He was a complete looney.

C. He was a deceptive liar.

D. He was a good bloke/teacher.

What do you reckon?

E. He was uber popular, the white tupac, and cause he knew he was gonna die he made up a story, same as tupacs '7 day theory', putting hints and stuff in his songs, renaming himself makaveli, after machiavelli some ancient dude who faked his death and came back later. Naming posthumous albums ressurection, songs also. Jesus is exactly the same. Hugely popular guy who knew he was going out and wanted never to be forgotten. Because of his immense popularity die hard fans, christians they call them, he has never been forgotten. Tupac also has his die hard fans who will not let go (not me).

You're an idiot :roll:

And Funky Munky nailed it on the head.

Its faith. Logic and "proof" is irrelevant.

BUUUT..

"There is no contradiction between science and religion"
Dr Zaus

Not entirely, because faith can be enhanced using logic, in certain circumstances. But the faith does need to exist in the first place.

Very few people come to faith (in ANY religion) through logic alone.

Edited by Spooney: 10/9/2008 12:32:03 PM

:lol:

I had to read that book for English in year 9 or 10 I think. Totally took the fun out of it.

yeah, school ruined brave new world and heart of darkness for me too. ](*,)

You actually read Brave New World?? That's what the Excel study guides are for!! That and Bored of Studies. :lol:

I didnt actually get to read it...went to bored of studies too. But ive always wanted to read it later on...almost made the same mistake with usual supects.

Combination of B and D. However well intentioned, I find the guy must have been a bit of a loon. The problem is its very difficult to judge what he was actually like, especially if you throw out the Bible as not evidence (which I do). In doing so, there is very little documentation from the time on him, whereas the others you mention - Nero, Caesar and Augustus are well documented in completely believable situations, even if there is clear bias by some writers of the time. They don't try and say that Nero could fly, the writers give an indication of what he did. We can actually make a judgment on them. We clearly know that Nero was horrible for example, even if not everything said about him was true. Jesus I cannot make judgment, as their really isn't enough sources on the man.

O and I think your comment was a bit loony mk. Those Tupac ideas of resurrection were ridiculous and can be used for anything. They weren't put out by Tupac - they were found by fans as they couldn't accept his death. Seriously, some of those "proofs" for Pacs resurrection were insanely ridiculous.

Edited by Nico: 10/9/2008 10:40:59 PM

Jesus 'proofs' are insanely ridiculous too. Im gald you see the link.

The things were put in their by Tupac. Are you saying Tupac didnt write his own lyrics and that fans changed his name to Makaveli? Tupac read a book on Machiavelli while he was in jail and became infatuated with him. Tupac put these hints in all his work and he wanted them to be found.

Do you see some link between the two though?

:-s:-k

Sure he did write his lyrics. They weren't intended to make his fans believe he was coming back was my point.

I do see some link. Just I think we differ on the actual reasoning behind Pacs whole resurrection. I think you believe that HE did it for when he died? I think their was no intention in it and when fans came up with ludicrous reasons, the record company jumped on board and used it to boost sales... The reasons such as the one that follows also seem stupid for Pac to bother coming up with, I mean why would you?

"The title of the new album by Makaveli (Tupac) is The 7 Day Theory. He was shot on September 7th; and survived on the 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, and"died" the 13th. Hence the title The 7 Day Theory." From some Pac alive? site.

:p I am trying... Its really moved away from religion anyway. I was sick of the bickering, I find this discussion now reasonable.

I'm still trying to figure out how we got from Jesus/Christianity to Tupac...

Cause tupac is the god of rap

Now lets talk about abortion.



You go first...

7 Day Theory relates to the fact that he recorded and mixed the entire album in 7 days.

Him dying after 7 days of getting shot is just coincidence.

For every "theory" of Pac faking his death, there is a counter theory (more like proof) that its all bs.

Listen to his interview on the CD "In his own words". He explains Makaveli and all that. (this interview was done a few months or so before he died. I think they were shooting How Do You Want It video or something).

You have to remember, that all these songs that have come out, were recorded in the year after he came out of jail. They were not released for a reason. He was a workaholic and would spent countless hours in the studio laying down his vocals. He was in jail after he got shot and almost died. He was a very vocal activist and was always in trouble with the government because of it. He was a young black male that grew up in the projects. Him saying he was going to die young, was something he witnessed around him every day growing up. Its just the gang culture of America. They don't live long because they are killing each other. That was what he was trying to bring awareness to.

The fact that alot of what he wrote is still relevant today, is what makes him great. Not that he died and is going to come back like these disillusioned people on the net STILL think. (the 7 years since his death came and went; 10 years came and went. Now people are coming up with 2014 or some shit for no reason at all.) If he faked his death, he would be up for fraud.

Death Row are just trying to capitalise on his death and his "2nd coming" because it generates sales of some of his worst stuff that has ever been released (lyrically they are ok, production wise, they are shit)

But whos to say that God didn't create the Big Bang? ;)

Like ive previously said, im not religious but i cant help to think that there has to be more to it. If this experiment is successful id still have to question where to these smashing protons come into the picture(how were they created), what makes them tick, how is time influenced by them, how is time developed, etc...I know its more question than likely answers but I just reckon there has to be something else that gets the ball rolling, or even going.

Sometimes its easier not to think about those questions. For example, they say that the Universe is forever expanding. Into what?! Just thinking that the Universe is infinite is enough to make your head explode.

Yet were still investing 6 billion dollars to finding out a little bit more.

Thats what scientists do. I was more talking about the plebs like us.
Stephen Hawking has dedicated his life to finding out the meaning of the Universe.

God's a Buddhist, don't think he'd be creating explosions of astronomical proportions.

Jesus was extremely well documented for his time. At the moment there are over 80 references to his death alone in other antique documents, by Jewish, Roman and Greek historians. Death is obviously a highly believable situation. (notice that I didn't say his resurrection) however, I am not sure why you can't consider any of the Bible in reference to Jesus as at least a source of information about him. You don't consider his claim to be God to be true, yet you also claim to not recognise his claim to be God as even a valid piece of text. It is like saying that you disagree with a statement, and then deny that the statement even exists. Jesus was a teacher and the things he said can be reliably read from the four Gospels, whether or not you believe him to be the Son of God, any scholar worth half his salt can tell you that.

Religious or not, the teaching of Jesus have shaped our world amazingly, the Sermon on the Mount (Matt 7) is pretty much the basis of the laws of western countries. Lets just say that the Gospel is a complete load of junk, who made it up? Who "created" this man who always had the right answer to every question and dispensed wisdom like a broken Coke machine dispenses cans. It certainly wasn't a group of illiterate fishermen and tax collectors.

Also, I don't think I have ever met a brilliant teacher who I respected who then wen't and told me he was some sort of deity. Can B and D really co-exist? I don't think it can.

Edited by Spooney: 11/9/2008 03:07:54 PM

What I meant was - The bible portrays him as the son of god right? And so if that is seen as false, then its difficult to make judgment out of those options. Yes, we can agree that the Bible tells us accurately that Jesus was a person, who was killed, though probably harshly. I haven't studied other sources on Jesus, maybe I am missing some facts about his life. Tell me anything of importance that has an obvious proof to it and maybe I can make judgment.


Now I think you're contradicting the entire beliefs of Christianity aren't you?

Touche.=d>

But for religious people, faith overrides ALL reason... It can contradict all it likes, if people want to believe, they will.

Brainwashed, or just upbringing. Same thing? Not really, we all pick of beliefs from parents, etc, doesn't make it brainwash. The ones I don't understand are the converters :-k

My point was that constantly science has prevailed over the Bible. Do Christians therefore stop believing? Of course not. Just take Darwinism as an example.